The drumbeat about health issues likely connected to Green Pasture fermented cod liver oil is growing louder by the day, it seems. Except the drumbeat seems not to be heard across the plains of Nebraska at Green Pasture headquarters.
Ann Marie Michaels of Cheeseslave has compiled more than 80 complaints of vitamin D deficiency, heart problems, hair loss, skin rashes, and other maladies from people who said they were using Green Pasture Fermented cod liver oil.
Serious marine lipid experts are also throwing cold water on the arguments from Dave Wetzel of Green Pasture and Sally Fallon Morell of the Weston A. Price Foundation that rancidity levels of FCLO are nothing to be concerned about. Dr. Rudi Moerck, one of the world’s leading experts on marine oils and omega 3s, said in an interview on Cheeeseslave that rancid cod liver oil poses potentially serious health hazards, including cancer and heart disease. (He also said it’s like ingesting something akin to furniture re-finishing oil.)
A number of people on this blog have expressed serious concerns about their own health problems, like significant hair loss and vitamin D deficiencies, and are wondering if state and federal regulators should be called on to investigate Green Pasture.
But the official word out of O’Neil, Nebraska, the home of Green Pasture, is that there are no FCLO health problems. The reason I can report that is that it turns out at least one regulator has begun making inquiries into the FCLO affair, and Wetzel denies FCLO health problems. Shortly after Kaayla Daniel issued her report on FCLO in late August, she also filed a complaint about Green Pasture with the Nebraska attorney general’s office.
Shortly after that, Dave Wetzel of Green Pasture filed a response to the AG’s inquiry, including a five-page letter of denial and seventy pages of supporting documentation. In his October 7 letter, Wetzel goes through many of the same arguments he went through in his official September response, shortly after the Daniel report broke, saying that scientists he’s had testing the product have pronounced it fine, and rejected the rancidity concerns. He characterizes Daniel’s complaint as “part of an ongoing campaign by Ms. Daniel to discredit Green Pasture Products.”
But Wetzel, in the next-to-last paragraph of his letter, makes this statement about possible health issues associated with FCLO: “Finally, it bears noting that the FDA requires manufacturers of dietary supplements, such as Green Pasture Products, to comply with adverse event reporting requirements. To my knowledge, there have not been any significant consumer reports of adverse health events reported in connection with any of Green Pasture dietary supplements. The FDA has received only one report of an adverse reaction—fever—experienced by a long-time user of our Blue Ice Fermented Cod Liver Oil in response to a particular batch. However, the FDA noted that they had not ‘established a relationship between the reported event and your product.’ “
So as of three weeks ago, Wetzel was very much into official denial. It’s difficult to imagine him shifting, even with the outpouring of even more stories and concerns of the last few weeks. After all, concerns have been expressed by users of FCLO going back nearly two years.
Does that mean consumers should organize themselves to demand action from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration or state agencies to halt FCLO sales? Certainly there is nothing wrong with reporting health problems and demanding investigations of Green Pasture. But regulatory action? I thought Sha’s comment was on target: “Are we truly discussing the FDA? Really? REALLY?!?! On a food freedom blog? How fast we are willing to throw out our principals in the pursuit of something we do not agree with….Let us get past the whole white knight syndrome here, and stop acting like other people need us to save them. You can empower them to save themselves by giving them good info. Allow them to decide what products they want to take or not. Damn.”
Amanda’s suggestion that worried customers call Green Pasture en masse and demand a recall or serious warning labels isn’t a bad idea, either. Weston A. Price Foundation members can also demand that the organization pull its endorsement of FCLO and pressure Green Pasture to issue warnings or otherwise alert customers about the potential dangers. I have made those suggestions on this blog, and personally written Wetzel and Fallon Morell with the same requests. Because it’s clear neither Wetzel nor Morell are about to take the initiative to protect their customers and members.
Rudi Moerck called Dave Wetzel’s process for producing his magical oil “disgusting” more than once in the interview. My take, from reading Dave’s writings, is that he has no idea what he is doing, that he has an almost religious-like faith that he is producing something healthful, but lacks any fundamental understanding of biology or the history of the production and use of cod liver oil. Like Sally, Dave is a lost cause. Only the customers can save the day, by voting with their dollars and by filing complaints directly to GPP. Regulatory agencies are pretty hopeless most of the time, and often dangerous; best that they don’t get involved. I’m sorry I ever trusted Sally Fallon Morell.
You know it is true about Dave W thinking FCLO has magical properties, a friend of mine who used to sell it said he told her that Scientists do not understand how to gauge and measure the wonderful healing properties of FCLO that it is beyond what science knows. He also would find out if she was selling it for cheaper than he decreed. She is a generous person and told me she did not feel right charging such a huge mark up, but he would check on her website and threaten to not sell it to her at all if she did not keep the price high, she told me that it probably cost him a dollar a bottle to make. Dave W sounds like King Lear! Totally mad. So Sally supports a delusional lunatic. But how to get word out to people who do not know how dangerous it is and buy into the propaganda?
How to get the word out Joy, would be very much like trying to reach people who have been indoctrinated into believing in the vaccine paradigm. Many are oblivious to the risks or turn a blind eye to them…while at the same time the purveyors and proponents of the product try to rationalize the risks as insignificant or attempt to justify them as worth taking. The only significant difference with vaccines is that their use has government backing and is mandated by law.
We should be very thankful that we still have a choice. Encouraging government involvement (nanny-statism) is little more then an emotional ego driven tactic that nurtures a self-righteous desire to control. I agree with Gary…vote with your dollars and file your complaints, then let it go at that.
@Ken, oakie doakie, sounds good to me, am already never buying the poison again, did have rapid heart beat when taking it, So can make a complaint to GP and you do make a good argument about letting it go. I guess these fanatics will have to get seriously ill first, to begin to question, if even then, unfortunately, and then maybe the light bulb will go off, I do wonder though, do you think all the users have heard of the controversy by now? Oh yep, just got my mini telephone book from Weston Price, cannot bring myself to read it. And if some do wake up before that, I can take comfort that there is this blog and Kaayla’s site and Ann’s site to go and get informed. The adults I can kinda let go of, it is the children, that worry me the most, but indoctrinated parents hold the power over them. And your analogy with vaccines makes sense. No of course I do not want the government involved, in anything! Just kept thinking of the kids and got real emotional yes, not so much ego, really. or wanting to control , do not think that entered my mind, just the frustration that people are taking poison and if they only knew…I think of the people being sent to concentration camps who were told they were going some place nice by the Germans and the citizens watching the trains go buy would pantomime, slitting their throats to try and warn them and I think some of the Jewish people did manage to escape the trains because of that warning. Well thanks for your concern, and thoughtful words, I will pray, in my own unconventional way, for the koolaided people.
trains go BY and forgive the other mistakes, early morning here!
OK I was wrong, the above comment came from being too influenced by…some other negative comments about contacting the FDA,.which I know has been contacted, I guess I will contact them more then.
This attitude fails to acknowledge that regulatory agencies and laws have their place. There’s no better example than the FCLO issue. The world is full of both delusional, self serving charlatans like the players in this mess, as well as well-intentioned, vulnerable consumers who become victims of their predation. Does anyone really believe such sociopathic predators should be allowed to peddle poison with no consequences? Caveat emptor of course, but in my opinion we should be looking out for one another and sometimes regulatory bodies and laws are the most efficient and effective way to do that. Calling all regulations bad because some are corrupt is throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water, IMO.
Randy, I could not agree more. FCLO is being given to infants, toddlers and infants. A little for them translates proportionally to a lot for an adult, and we have seen that even a modest amount may be very damaging to many people. The right thing to do is use whatever means are necessary to protect children, including working with the proper regulatory agencies.
Randy and Ron, you make good points. My main concern in going to the regulators is that we don’t go demanding they “do something, anything.” When this kind of situation comes up, where a food or supplement seems to be creating health problems, I think back to the mid-1980s, when consumers organized themselves under Ralph Nader’s banner to pressure the FDA to step in and ban raw milk. There had been a number of illnesses and possible deaths attributed to raw milk, most particularly in California at Alta Dena dairy. The FDA didn’t want to mess with raw milk, wanted to leave it to the states. The consumers were so insistent they went to federal court, and got a judge to order the FDA to act. The FDA in 1987 implemented a ban on interstate sales of raw milk, which stands to this day. More significant, the consumer action turned the FDA from neutral regulatory bystanders into the the anti-raw-milk hysterics we know today.
Randy and Ron,
The same, “protect the children” argument is used by government regulatory bodies to ban raw milk sales, to enforce toxic vaccine mandates and to impose compulsory sex education in schools; indeed the argument has also been used against those who practice and subject their children to a vegan diet… so where does one draw the line?
We certainly do have a moral obligation to intervene when the harm inflicted is irrefutable. Knowing when and how to do so, is an ongoing balancing act between extremes that demands tremendous wisdom and humility.
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn sums up this ongoing predicament or balancing act well, “I have spent all my life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society without any objective legal scale is a terrible one indeed. But a society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy of man either.
When push comes to shove on dubious issues such as those mentioned above, the parents aught to have the final say…not the government!
The regulatory body’s attempt to mitigate hazards is limited to say the least and as is often the case, government run systems tend to be oblivious, nonchalant and incensitive to the harm that they have in fact inflicted on people, especially children, via such attempts.
Thanks for that! Ok, I am more awake now, yeah it seems as if I too have had a bit of koolaid
of a different sort. I got tired of being bashed I guess for my former stance and…I believed that it was hopeless, that the government would come in and send us to camps if we dare complain. Ok then what is the next step to stop this? The only thing I can think of is to give my complaint to the FDA, any other suggestions? I will try not to waffle again, thanks!
Randy: Thank you. Good point. I’ve been so deeply involved in fighting forced vaccination, have done a great deal of research, have come to the conclusion that all of it is dangerous quackery, yet have seen the vaccine regulatory agencies ignore serious adverse events, ignore impeccable science which clearly shows their connection to the epidemic of conditions of immune dysregulation, and trot out pseudoscience cooked up in Atlanta to promote what are vastly profitable legally mandated products from manufacturers who are fully indemnified. Likely it is different in the food industry. Not so much profit to be made. No liability protection. The vaccine issue has colored my view of government because of the absolute corruption of the regulatory agencies, and because it targets our most vulnerable, our children, our future. This is what disgusts me most about the “players in this mess”-they sound just like the CDC. You are certainly correct that not all regulatory agencies are corrupt. Those of us who enjoy flying generally hold the FAA and NTSB in high regard. Even the USDA and EPA, despite some level of corruption, do a great deal of good. So I’ve come to agree with you. There really is no other option. Delusional charlatans, indeed.
You can file an adverse event report with the FDA… why not? Regulators might be useless but this might get their attention— like Wetzel said there was only 1 report filed against him. He does have to file some paperwork with the FDA but only can be obtained with a FOIA request- Freedom of Information Act. I wonder when the last time was that he was inspected? FDA says they inspect every two years and more often IF COMPLAINTS…people filing adverse event reports just might trigger an inspection of his “woo-woo” methods.
I disagree that the regulatory agencies have a place by and large. This idea that they are working for our health and safety is a myth, a cover story. It is mostly about power, control, and raising the cost of business to keep out competitors. As often as not we’d be better off without them.
The corruption is systematic, it is endemic, it is part of the very nature of the system.
“He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.”
Pete: You are correct in that the agencies tasked with protecting our health are not, most of the time, working to protect our health. The agencies that deal with issues of health, that regulate the medical industry, where gobs of money is to be made, have been fully captured by industry, and work for the benefit of industry, not public health, with a revolving door for employment between them. The same is true in the financial industry. Bureaucratic inertia and careerism further gum up the works. But everything in this world is regulated, by the solar cycle that moves us through the seasons, to circadian rhythms that regulate our sleeping and waking, to social conventions which govern our relationships with each other, to traffic laws which help minimize collisions, ad infinitum. But. . .what business would not prefer to have 100% market share? Antitrust laws minimize that. Would you prefer to live in a world without air traffic controllers? They regulate departures and arrivals, permissible routes and altitudes, and make flying by far the safest form of transport. Where money is to be made, corruption often follows, but it is human nature to desire more than what we have, so the horrors of regulators gone bad is more a reflection of our nature than it is an inevitable consequence of an attempt to govern.
Gary what you speak of is called regulatory capture and it is inevitable for any regulatory agency. And thats the best case scenario.
The average case is that the regulation was put in specifically as an anti-competative measure.
We’re not talking about traffic cops and air traffic controllers. I’m not arguing for anarchy, just freedom. Our nation operated just fine for a long time without bureaucrats, licensing, regulation and more. These parasites are a function of our decline and fall, not rise to greatness.
Pete: Agreed, largely. Bureaucrats are the largest part of the problem. Parasites too many of them are. They have civil service protection (in many ways a good thing), little to do other than complicate our lives, and an ever-expanding budget to spend. Our thoroughly corrupt Congress is largely to blame for this, though I wouldn’t spare the judiciary. As for licensing, allopathic medicine pretty well cornered the market by the 30’s, yet to this day 50-75% of clinical care is of little or no value other than a placebo affect, much of it is dangerous, and alternative therapies are branded as quackery, while actual quackery goes on every day throughout the land, especially in pediatricians offices. Dr. Brownstein had a very good post on bio-identical hormone therapy, which is very effective, unlike HRT, which was a disaster. Now Pharma is trying to corner the market by shutting down compounding pharmacies, where they are made, and making their own, no doubt at a steeper price. Newspapers are and will be editorializing against compounding pharmacies (I don’t read newspapers any more, and my BP has improved!).
Pete: On second thought, while our bureaucracy is vast, bloated. and terribly wasteful of our hard-earned doubloons, only a misreading of history could cause one to believe that “Our nation operated just fine for a long time without bureaucrats, licensing, regulation and more.” James Madison’s misadventure invading Canada (Thomas Jefferson: “The acquisition of Canada this year, as far as the neighborhood of Quebec will be a mere matter of marching.”) ultimately led to the proliferation of distillery dairies, located in or near our great cities, whose swill killed up to half of the children in those selfsame great cities during the latter half of the 19th century, and into the 20th (source: “The Untold Story of Milk,” by our esteemed Dr. Ron). Child labor? Truth be told, life for children in the cities during this period was short, brutal, and miserable. Miners? Steel workers? Same thing. Workers in chemical plants? Same thing. Standards and regulation in industry have brought enormous improvement in the lives of our citizens, especially the children. It has been since the end of WWII that this monstrosity has grown like a cancer. President Eisenhower warned, in his farewell address, about the military-industrial complex. Today it is the medical-industrial complex which makes all the rest look like small potatoes. Pharma represents the gravest danger our nation has ever faced. Pharma has utterly captured the way medical care is delivered, but the worst of it is the CDC vaccination schedule, which is destroying the health of our children with no discernible benefit, except to the stockholders. Since the blockbuster drugs (largely of little value, but lucrative) have mostly come off patent, vaccines are their growth industry, and they have hundreds in the pipeline. I say throw the Pharma execs, ACIP members, and the Secretary of DHHS in jail for crimes against humanity.
I run a healthy living Facebook page as well as am part of other such groups that have thousands of followers. I post the information probably weekly–updating everyone on the current news from both this blog and the wonderful videos from the Cheeseslave YouTube channel. People aren’t idiots (well, most aren’t) and just let them take a look and decide for themselves.
Thank you for helping to get the word out.
Sally and Sarah Pope have both said that FCLO has magical properties, in so many words. Then Kim Schuette and Louisa Williams said it tested fine with their pendulums and applied kinesiology techniques..That is , in essence, what Chris Masterjohn has said in his latest “scientific” paper on vitamin D published in Wise Traditions. Then Rami Nagel cured cavities and gums with it… liberally referencing Dave Wetzel in his footnotes.
Dr. Williams and Kim Schuette do not use pendulums for testing but I have heard they find the FCLO and FSLO tests consistently well using MRT. Others docs say the same thing. And the reports of cavities healing are longstanding, aren’t they?
Anne: Please explain which type of MRT you are referring to. There appear to be gazillions of them. Also explain how it differs from pendulum swinging.
I just know MRT is based on applied kinesiology. I understand that is not the sole reason they give for using any product. And they review lab analyses and production practices.
Based on applied kinesiology. And yes there are many versions but I don’t think people like Dr. Williams and Kim Schette are using only MRT. They look at available studies by published labs. As would Chris Masterjohn and Chris Kresser. Hope this isn’t the beginning of a witch hunt. I don’t think that will help your cause.
I’ve gone through Dr. Williams book and listened to her lectures….she continually mentions muscle testing as her way of deciding supplements. And David Wetzel has said she used muscle testing for recommendations of his cod liver oil not lab testing.
In terms of a witch hunt….you could say many of us are on a “witch hunt” against GMO foods depending on how you view it….or a “witch hunt” against vaccinations. I prefer to err on the side of caution with these unproven technologies including fclo.
Lots of poisons do some good things…chemo kills cancer cells. No one debates that. The question with fclo is what’s the price for healing cavities? A bad heart, cancer, hives, low vitamin levels, we don’t know as we’re the experiment with it
I like the part where you say they view it like a religion, blind faith. It is very close to things I have experienced through this entire debate.
“Although Jones used Flavor Aid in the poison, the drink mix was also commonly referred to as Kool-Aid due to its status as a generic trademark. This has led to the phrase “Drinking the Kool-Aid”, referring to a person or group holding an unquestioned belief, argument, or philosophy without critical examination”
I have substituted the word “Kool-Aide” for “recommended products” and added a couple of comments in parentheses so you can see why there is such a silence from people involved in WAPF…
KOOL-AIDE CONTROVERSY
Most of you are no doubt aware of the current (Kool aide controversy. If not, please read our Questions and Answers about the Kool aide. (Questions and answers will convince you that the Kool Aide is safe).
Many of you organize bulk orders of Kool aide for your group, or even sell it on your websites. As a chapter leader, you may sell or arrange orders of any of our recommended brands: (including the Kool aide brand)
What we do not allow is criticism of the Kool aide. It is fine to say “I find this brand works best for me,” or “My children like this brand the best.” What we do not allow is negative comments about products we recommend, (including the Kool Aide). This is our policy at conferences as well. Exhibitors are not allowed to criticize competing products (including the Kool aide), only talk about the good things in their products.
If you feel there is some reason we should not recommend a product in our shopping guide or elsewhere, please bring your concerns to the staff—rather than posting comments online–and we will look into it. (Don’t warn people about the Kool aide, bring it to us and we will handle it)
For those of you who sell products through your personal websites, please check to make sure these guidelines are being followed. If you feel that you cannot comply (and must warn people not to drink the Kool aide) then we will reluctantly ask you to step down as a chapter leader.
Thanks for sharing, So glad you escaped and are getting your hair back!
Thanks Joy, I am enjoying reading your posts, love your term, the “Koolaided people” maybe it will catch on and get somebody’s attention before more people and children and babies are harmed.
^^^^
Best response yet. Wonderfully put.
In the sixties, there were “Electric Acid Kool-Aid” events in San Francisco, before LSD was illegal. No one but the organizers knew much acid (LSD) was in the Kool-Aid. Thousands of people would go. Many had a wonderful time. Others completely freaked out, even hurting themselves or others. But at least no one knowingly gave the Kool-Aid to their children.
Interesting that I keep hearing supporters of GP accusing those who are alarmed and concerned about the FCLO product, crying that there is a “witch hunt” going on. It seems to me that the above statements are EXACTLY in line with the definition of a witch hunt, and the shoe is entirely on the other foot! Silence all who oppose, accuse them of falsehood, and then evade serious answers to the issues. There is indeed a Witch Hunt, and it is being conducted against anyone who dares to criticize anything supported by WAPF.
The problem here is that Wetzel states he has only one adverse health effect claimed but at least two sizable distributors dropped the line because of adverse reactions if I recall. I find it strange that these resellers did not tell GPP of their problem especially if GPP called them wanting to know the reason of their dropping the line. Nonetheless, it looks like a very good response from GPP. This won’t go any further at the AGs I suspect
This is because GP only COUNTS reports made to the FDA. Consumers are somehow supposed to know that in order to get action, they have to report adverse events to the FDA. GP won’t pass on those adverse reports – if they did, then there would have been more than one listed with the FDA.
Therein lies the trap. If you do not involve the government, then he will ignore the problems. He knows his customers are reluctant to involve the government. But if you do not, he does not have any obligation (in his mind) to take action.
“Finally, it bears noting that the FDA requires manufacturers of dietary supplements, such as Green Pasture Products, to comply with adverse event reporting requirements. To my knowledge, there have not been any significant consumer reports of adverse health events reported in connection with any of Green Pasture dietary supplements. The FDA has received only one report of an adverse reaction”
I believe this is true. Sort of. As far as I can tell, the FDA require manufacturers to keep a record of ALL adverse reactions, but only serious adverse reactions have to be reported immediately. So if Dr. Ron reported his adverse reaction to GPP, they would be required to submit a report to the FDA. I don’t know if Dr. Ron “reported” his serious adverse event to GPP, but they definitely know about it nonetheless. The phrasing he used could be significant “not been any SIGNIFICANT consumer REPORTS of adverse health events.” I don’t want to read too much into this but with some of the other phrasing that we’ve seen that has seemed to indicate one thing, but meant something else, I wonder. This could mean that they have received reports of adverse events, but they haven’t been significant. Or that they don’t consider any reported adverse event as significant.
From FDA site: http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/GuidanceDocumentsRegulatoryInformation/DietarySupplements/ucm171383.htm
“What is an “adverse event?”
An “adverse event” is “any health-related event associated with the use of a dietary supplement that is adverse.” Section 761(a)(1) of the FD&C Act (21 U.S.C. 379aa-1(a)(1)).
What is a “serious adverse event?”
A “serious adverse event” is an adverse event that:
Results in death, a life-threatening experience, inpatient hospitalization, a persistent or significant disability or incapacity, or a congenital anomaly or birth defect; or
Requires, based on a reasonable medical judgment, a medical or surgical intervention to prevent an outcome described above.
Section 761(a)(2) of the FD&C Act (21 U.S.C. 379aa-1(a)(2)).
FDA considers inpatient hospitalization to include initial admission to the hospital on an inpatient basis, even if the patient is released the same day, and prolongation of an existing inpatient hospitalization. Please see the Appendix of this guidance for more information on the criteria for serious adverse events.
[Updated September 2013] What is a “serious adverse event report?”
A “serious adverse event report” is a report that must be submitted to FDA using the MedWatch form when a manufacturer, packer, or distributor of a dietary supplement receives any report of a serious adverse event associated with the use of the dietary supplement in the United States. See section 761(a)(3) and (b)(1) of the FD&C Act (21 U.S.C. 379aa-1(a)(3), (b)(1)).”
I’m not digging my new pink profile pic.
On the Blog home page, you can go to the right-hand column where it says “Login, Need an Avatar?” and go through the process to upload a photo of yourself that will replace the pink profile. It’s a pretty simple process.
I tried it before. Just tried it again. We’ll see if it works.
LOL
It’s clear from reading the document Wetzel submitted to the Nebraska AG that he had a lawyer(s) spend considerable (expensive) time making sure the i’s were dotted and the t’s crossed. So I think it’s safe to assume that the language from Wetzel’s letter we are all trying to interpret was very carefully crafted from a legal and regulatory viewpoint. This kind of document is equivalent in many respects to a court deposition–it has legal standing.
No one wants this debacle turning into something with negative wide-reaching effects and FDA over-controlling what is available to consumers. I agree with Sha’s comment mentioned in this post…inform people and vote with your pocketbooks. If there is not market for a product, that product will disappear and if people who experience and have experienced negative impacts from using the product are presented with clear evidence as well as testimonies from others to assure them that it’s ‘not in your head’ then they are empowered to make healthy decisions for themselves and their families. However, I do feel that Green Pastures should be taking back and refunding the money on every single one of the bottles they have sold that have negatively affected others. I don’t know what their policy is on that but I have a good amount of unopened, within expiry date, bottles I’d like to return as I no longer have a use for them in my family.
It seems appropriate that an earlier comment used the Jim Jones incident to compare this mess to that cult, as it becomes more and more apparent that supporters of GP and SFM show more and more that they are exhibiting cult-like behaviour rather than reasonable critical thinking skills.
Yes, this is so much reminding me of the Jim Jones incident. I remember the day I woke up to find it in the news and wondering, “how could these people willingly take this poison?” Yet, it is such a mystery how a leader can hold such a strong psychological power over people that the power from the top trickles down through its leaders who are willing to participate in something that goes against their conscience and common sense. Many Chapter Leaders and bloggers had recommended GPFCLO to many people. They may feel the need to alert them of the new safety concern, but they have been told not to think for themselves. Even when they are personally suffering from health problems related to the GPFCLO or have discontinued it due to problems with it, they are not permitted to speak negatively about it without the threat of losing their chapter. Chapter leaders have been given the role of robots dishing out recommended product lists in a cult-like blind trust that the powers that be know what is best. In fact, the ironic thing is that if you research “destruction of Vitamin A by rancid oils” “destruction of Vitamin D by rancid oils” and “destruction of Vitamin E by rancid oils” you will find research to support that the consumption of rancid oil destroys fat-soluble vitamins. The list is getting longer and longer of people with reported health problems, and the patterns tend to be associated with deficiencies of these 3 critical vitamins.
Annette, yes mam you are correct. Just took some time to google your terms and it’s an eye opener. Here’s a Vit A one specifically to cod liver oil http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02565550
Right from the page:
Summary
1. Vitamin A was destroyed in cod liver oil as rancidity developed.
2. Vitamin A was destroyed at lower peroxide values when rancidity developed at room temperature than when it was accelerated by aeration at 100°C.
3. It is suggested that not only vitamin A, but other biological properties of oils are not equally affected by rancidity produced in different ways and at different rates, and that peroxide value may not necessarily be parallel to that of other changes which take place in an oil as rancidity develops.
Ironic that the Weston Price Foundation is all about Vit A and Price’s cod liver oil work but have such large gaps in their knowledge a simple google search can find them.
As well as Kris Kresser… who recommended FCLO heartily but never tested? Just jumped on the bandwagon?
Aurjan you do know Chris Kresser doesn’t take fclo nor give it to his family. He’s switched to Rosita and says so in his Sept blog on this issue.
Actually Karen, Chris Kresser recommends and does not think there is anything wrong with the FCLO. He will be posting a new update in a short time. You can read this in the comment section of his podcast transcript -Should everyone supplement with fish oil.
And now the purge begins… These FCLO pushers will be remembered for the blood on their hands.
@Heifer Hugger…Bingo again!
Ahh…yes I saw that ….but with his own family he uses something different…..and safer. He starting to sound as weasely as another Chris out there.
Go look at the reports collected right off these blogs that cheeseslave collected and tell me this is known to be safe. At a bare minimum it should have warning labels but there really should be a recall.
http://www.cheeseslave.com/fermented-cod-liver-oil-scandal-many-fclo-customers-report-health-problems/
One thing that I think is important to understand is that because of the financial relationships that are in play with some of these folks, and the personalities involved and their “for us or against us” mindset, there could definitely be a carefulness in what is said. It’s like some chapter leaders I have heard of that don’t like what is going on, but don’t want to lose their relationships. Some folks have built their social lives and/or their business around WAPF and WAPF people. Every one of their significant friends, the people they talk to all of the time, and a lot of their income is derived from being in these circles. And so, some of them are able to find middle ground where they don’t offend the powers that be in those circles, but don’t offend their conscience as well. It’s easy for us that don’t have those entanglements to judge those that are in those situations. We think they should take a stand. I’ve been in that situation before and its tough. You’re not happy about what is going on, but its not onerous enough for you to literally tear your life apart by speaking out against it. So you focus on the good, and try to ignore the bad and hope things get better.
I believe that it isn’t quite clear cut enough, or bad enough, or close enough to home for many of them to HAVE to take a stand for their conscience’s sake. If we were ever to see something happen that somehow made it obvious to even the most cursory glance that FCLO was hurting people, you would see many people that might be disappointing you now, taking a very strong stand. If that were ever to happen, WAPF itself would be torn apart, and the devastation to many businesses and social circles would be tremendous. .
Steve, the feelings are much more intense than you describe. I’ve had interactions that make clear to me that a number of these chapter leaders and others are quite angry–at Kaayla Daniel, Ron Schmid, Ann Marie Michaels, me, and other “troublemakers” for potentially upsetting their gravy trains. In fact, that hostility is personified by the Supreme Leader. Her forbidding of links to this blog and the Daniel report are just the most obvious expressions of intense hostility and anger.
When you are feeling such resentment, it is pretty easy to rationalize what is going on in terms of people getting sick. You try to explain it to yourself in any of several ways–the health problems aren’t from the FCLO; even if they are, they’re not really so serious; these people are overdosing, etc., etc. It’s a sad situation, because these people (WAPF lieutenants, board members, etc.) are basically good people, being misled by a manipulative and controlling leader.
I do agree, many of these people are close to the edge, tired of living in fear and anger and guilt over what is going on. Some additional clear evidence of WAPF or FCLO problems could throw them over the edge, and out of the entire situation.
David: Do you, or anyone else, for that matter, know whether the chapter leaders receive a commission for their sales of this stuff? If so, this would be a powerful economic incentive to toe the line.
Gary, I believe it varies. Some chapter leaders sell the stuff at cost, as a service to members. Others sell it as a business sideline (or main line) and pocket the profit.
There’s no chapter leader discount or commission and there’s no affiliate program that I know of. He sells in bulk to anyone, and then offers a deeper discount for buying clubs.
@Sverin…..here you go straight from Chris Kresser August blog post on the fermented cod liver oil.
“As soon as the EVCLO product became available, I ordered some. I noticed right away that it smelled, looked, and tasted fresh. This, together with Rosita’s transparency and third-party testing, was enough to convince me to switch over to EVCLO and begin recommending it to my tribe”.
Karen, I did not say that Chris Kresser did not recommend Rositas oil. I know he receive a commission from Rosita EVCLO (not implying that that is why he recommends it as that is not my impression of him but it also makes his support of GP more valuable) I only pointed out his recent statement that he does not think there are any thing wrong with the FCLO. In his first article you can see that he writes that he will continue to research and that he is in contact w// several people with expertise in marine oils, lipid science, and nutritional biochemistry in an attempt to better understand the implications of Kayla’s report. So apperantly new information has been brought forward to him since he now claim with certiainty in comparison to his first article that he does believe that consuming FCLO is safe.
Yes, I have already seen what Cheesslave has posted but I do not share her view. I personally believe there can be other explanation for the reaction people are describing other than that the FCLO must be rancid and dangerous. Similar complaints has been seen with other cod liver oils and in general other food/supplements some peoples are sensitive to.. And yes I have read all the reports and have yet to see a clear scientific proof that shows that the FCLO is indeed rancid. I agree that the whole situation probably could have been better handled by WAPF/Sally and GP but that doesn’t mean that there is anything wrong with FCLO.
You assume that “new information has been brought forward” for him to go from equivocation to certainty where the safety is concerned. An alternate explanation (since no new information has been either mentioned by him, nor published by anyone else), is that Sally’s strongarm tactics have been used on him as they have been on dozens of other bloggers who also equivocated, then came out with statements that FCLO MUST be safe based on Sally’s claims (which did not in any way address the actual issues of Kaayla’s report).
Laura: I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. He equivocated just a week ago, in the comment section. I have attended two of his excellent presentations at conferences, and respect him, but this makes me cringe. Succumbed to the strong arm tactics, perhaps, because he wishes to give presentations in the future. Sad. The dictator is really flexing her muscles. Now I’m truly sorry I didn’t pull out of attending Anaheim. This has gotten uglier by the day.
I’m trying to understand how the conversation got to this point. You are accusing Chris Kresser of lying when he says that, after looking at the evidence, he doesn’t think FCLO is a bad product. Aside from the serious ethical and moral implications, think for a moment about the practical side of the issue. Chris Kresser’s website has a ranking of 8,184 in the country. WAPF’s website is 25,113. In other words, Kresser has a significantly greater following than WAPF.
But for the sake of perhaps being invited to give unpaid talks at the WAPF conference in the future, you think he’d lie.
And the only basis for making this serious accusation is that he interprets the data differently than Kaayla and some others. Scientists and health practitioners can and do disagree on how to interpret test results on a frequent basis.
David, you said you wanted the conversation to move toward the science and away from vendettas. It doesn’t take censorship to steer a conversation. As the owner of this site, you can express your opinion when commenters cross over the line. If you continue to allow personal attacks on people for having different opinions, then you can hardly expect anyone to engage in a positive discussion.
@Judith, you’re assuming Chris Kresser knows how to evaluate evidence. A risky assumption to make. Look at Kresser’s behavior. Lots of self promoting. A book publicist for a watery book that barely sells. And a weasely response to a bombshell.
Chris Kresser shows zero sign of evaluating evidence. He wants the whole thing to blow over so he doesn’t lose a conference to hawk that feeble book at. Of course he won’t take a stand.
Judith: You misunderstand my comment. I most certainly was not accusing Chris Kresser of lying. As I said, I respect him, and I must add that, though I don’t know firsthand, I suspect he does much good with the healing arts. Equivocate most certainly does not mean “to lie.” The first definition, “to use equivocal language especially with intent to deceive,” certainly allows for that interpretation, but does not preclude other motives. However, I mean equivocate in the second sense, “to avoid committing oneself in what one says,” although what he actually did was decommit himself. In August he stated that he had ordered EVCLO, found it to taste and smell better, and had switched his family (he said “tribe,” and I assume he meant his family). Eight days ago he decommitted himself from that change of policy, without explanation. I was only speculating that he wishes to maintain good relations with the WAPF, certainly not an idle one (there are many other, often superseding, motives than the purely economic), though I did put it a bit crudely. What I fail to understand is how intelligent people of good will can fail to be alarmed by the quashing of dissent about a clearly questionable product and the deceptive way it has been marketed.
Gary, I appreciate you clarifying your comments. I was responding (and will do so again) to the general line of comments, more than any one person. Over and over, the message in this thread (sometimes explicitly, sometimes more subtly) has been that anyone who doesn’t condemn FCLO as a bad product must either be scared of Sally, delusional, or making money off of it and unwilling to upset the “gravy train.” The message is that there can be no other reasonable interpretation for the lab data in Kaayla’s report.
Multiple comments also jump on any “admission” that someone doesn’t take FCLO themselves, as if there can only be one brand that is any good, and the choice to take one means the others are bad.
This sounds a lot like “quashing dissent” to me.
As for the reported adverse reactions, I do take them seriously. Seriously enough that I think each person needs help in figuring out what is good and bad for themselves, not simply having their health concerns used as ammunition to attack Green Pastures and WAPF.
My CRP went down dramatically when I went of gluten and nightshades. I was taking FCLO during the time that my CRP went down. Does that mean people’s reports of reduced CRP when they go off FCLO are invalid? Absolutely not — it means that it would make sense to look for a hypothesis that explained both sets of reports, not simply cherry pick which ones you want to look at.
I posted Kaayla’s report to our local listserv back in August along with the responses. A few people have chosen to stop taking FCLO, while others have decided to keep taking it – without anyone feeling obliged to attack those who are making different decisions.
I am regretting ever trying to engage in this discussion. I welcome productive discussions that could help develop information for people to use in making decisions for themselves, but none of this seems headed in that direction.
Judith: Thank you very much for your response. Yes, there has been some real and unwarranted nastiness in this discussion; apparently that is the nature of on-line forums (this is the first I’ve ever seen or participated in). I will own up to writing a few things, in the heat of passion, that I regret, but it is clear that many people feel that they have been deceived about FLCO and are angry about it. I’ve never had my CRP tested, but gave up all grains 18 months ago, and my belly fat disappeared in a few weeks. We are indeed all different in our responses to environmental inputs. One of the things that really took me aback was that there were concerns about FCLO three years ago, but apparently only a few people knew about it. It was nearly a budget-buster for me, but I took it faithfully because I thought it was good for my health. I no longer believe that-I feel better and sleep better than I did before I quit six months ago. And I’ve had some gut feelings about GPP for some time that have nothing to do with lab tests. When I spoke of quashing dissent I was referring to Sally’s instructions to chapter leaders, as David G reported here. This is not a way to engender trust. She has done so much good for so many people in her life, but she’s dug herself into such a deep hole with this that, like the CDC with autism, I don’t think she will be able to climb out. We are all fallible, and many of us have a difficult time fessing up to our mistakes. I have great sympathy for her after what happened today, but will be leaving the organization at the end of the year because it no longer meets my needs for knowledge. I must say I’ve always enjoyed and appreciated your updates in the journal.
Gary, I appreciate your openness, both about your own experience and towards others’ experiences. I am signing off this forum because I have no desire to contribute given its direction. But I would welcome the chance to connect with you in person at the conference — I will be there on Thursday and Friday.
Judith, I’ll just say that in my case, I’ve been concerned primarily with spreading the word–issuing a warning–to people who don’t read blogs or social media that the FCLO could be damaging users’ health. From my vantage point, it has seemed from the start that WAPF was intent on preventing the dissemination of such info via both its statements and its actions. I’ve been frustrated that many with influence in WAPF didn’t push for the dissemination of warnings. I’m a WAPF member, so I’ve been pushing the organization in that spirit. I agree with you that “each person needs help in figuring out what is good and bad for themselves,” but it’s difficult to figure out what’s potentially good or bad if you’re not given all the necessary info.
David, I do and will support the dissemination of information to support people’s informed choices. The problem is that there has been almost no information provided that hasn’t been mixed together with personal and professional attacks.
The starting point was Kaayla’s report, which included numerous attacks and a lot of unfounded speculations that were wholly unnecessary. I think Eric has posted previously about how it could and should have been handled if the real goal was to engage WAPF and Green Pastures in a constructive discussion.
Kaayla’s decisions are her responsibility, but you and Dr. Ron could have stepped forward and said explicitly “The personal attacks are wrong.” Instead, blog post after blog post, and the comments on them, encouraged the personal tone, rather than focusing on looking at the complexity of the science involved.
There wasn’t any acknowledgement that there was even any complexity to discuss. People who said essentially “There are some interesting things in this report but it’s far from clear what they mean or the impact” (such as Masterjohn and Kresser) have been attacked. The message was that a critical discussion of the information was not tolerated – just blind repetition of the claims.
And the quality of the information is questionable. One of the fundamental points of disagreement is whether FCLO is rancid (which would mean it’s bad for everyone) or whether it has compounds that some people react badly to (putting it in the category of things such as CLOs in general, different forms of folate, nightshades, and a long list of things that are healthy for some people but not all). As even Kaayla’s report acknowledged, the usual markers for rancidity were all low. So the rancidity claim depends entirely on an interpretation that the passage of time should change how those markers are interpreted. As Masterjohn reviewed, Kaayla cited two references for this claim. He was able to look up the first reference, and it does not actually support that interpretation – if anything it contradicts it. And when he asked her for the second reference, she responded that it was difficult to find data on the issue, and her conclusions were based on conversations with experts.
So you have a claim that a product that has helped many people is inherently bad (rancid) based on expert opinions unsupported by studies. The simple fact that a cited reference does NOT support the conclusion would raise huge red flags for any scientist. And the claims are wrapped up in a package of personal attacks. But anyone who doesn’t spread this information far and wide is attacked.
Your decision to share messages from the Chapterleaders list, out of context and without permission of the people who made them, further closed down the opportunity for any kind of meaningful discussion about how the organization could address the issue.
Until and unless there is information that does not include personal attacks, it’s unreasonable to expect others to want to spread it around. And, on that note, I am signing off this blog. It has gone in a direction that I have absolutely no desire to be involved with in any shape, form, or fashion.
Judith, just wanted to say that you have a good point about the personal attacks. I regret having engaged in a few personal attacks, in the heat of battle, as it were. In particular, with a colleague of yours. And I suspect others on both sides have similar regrets.
However, your assertion that “there has been almost no information provided that hasn’t been mixed together with personal and professional attacks” is quite sweeping, and inaccurate. During the early weeks of this controversy, people went off at great length with their own interpretations of the science and their interpretations of Chris Masterjohn’s interpretation, without personal attacks pro or con. I must say that I learned quite a lot about lipid science and such from those comments. The last few weeks have seen personal attacks diminish a great deal, in my judgment.
Yes, there have been personal attacks in some comments. To suggest that I or Ron Schmid could somehow have stopped them all by telling people to stop is wishful thinking, in my judgment, having been there in the trenches. I blocked at least a couple dozen libelous statements, wrote notes to the commenters that I was pulling their statements, and in a few instances, the individuals continued to try to post the remarks, and complained they were being censored. The fact that most of those whom I blocked, and notified, didn’t complain clouded the reality that I was blocking comments from both sides. In fact, I just blocked a comment a couple days ago that said made some terrible personal speculation about Dave Wetzel of Green Pasture. There were also people trying to pretend they were one or another of the principals (Kaayla Daniel or Ron Schmid) making crazy statements on their behalf. My point is that I was dealing with a deluge of commentary, and it was tough enough to just stay with it, let alone try to sway it in a different direction. At least that was my judgment, based in part on past experiences where I’ve asked everyone to “behave,” and had my requests ignored. People in that situation rightfully don’t care much about me, they care about the issues at hand.
I came to realize that the personal attacks were happening, not because people felt like being mean, but because many people were very upset about what was going on, on both sides. For that reason, I don’t think it was all bad. It was a reflection of how engaged many people are. Why were people so engaged? I was talking with someone recently who, like me, attended many WAPF annual conferences, and we realized that just about everyone who attended those conferences left with some Green Pasture FCLO. In other words, lots and lots of people are/were taking the stuff, and when Kaayla Daniel’s report came out, it made many people very nervous. I wrote a blog post about what a personal crisis this affair was for many people, and it really was/is. I’ve been running this blog for nine years, and the two-plus months have been the most intense time ever, for me, and I suspect for many others who follow it.
Some of your observations about the timing and handling of Kaayla Daniel’s report, along with the specifics of Masterjohn’s analysis, and the technical and chemical aspects of rancidity have been discussed at great length here, so I don’t want to try to repeat it now.
I am surprised about your reaction to my quoting from the Chapterleaders’ list serve, since you are an activist and policy adviser and often trade in information. Material from messages posted on quasi-public list serves is fair game for journalists and activists and policy advisers alike. Even private emails are fair game these days–we are repeatedly warned not to say anything in emails we wouldn’t want to see on the front page of a national newspaper.
I would pose one set of related questions to you, in conclusion (even if you’re not posting here, at least to think about): If certain things had been handled differently–say, Kaayla Daniel submitted her report to the WAPF board first, or Sally Fallon Morell didn’t kick Ron Schmid out of the national conference, as just a couple examples–would there have been different decisions made? Would WAPF have considered suspending its endorsement of Green Pasture FCLO? Might Green Pasture have issued some kind of alert or warning to the many WAPF consumers taking the stuff? Might the whole thing have just blown over, quickly forgotten, and we’d all be looking forward to another fun WAPF annual conference? I’d be curious what you think. Thanks much.
@Judith McGeary
“Chris Kresser’s website has a ranking of 8,184 in the country. WAPF’s website is 25,113. In other words, Kresser has a significantly greater following than WAPF.”
Which is EXACTLY why Chris owes it to his audience — and his patients — to look into this and to report on it in a timely manner.
He did post about the scandal in August which is good, but then he went quiet for two whole months. Then he did a whole podcast about fish oil last week — and he said nothing about FCLO. He only said something (saying he thinks it’s fine) after someone directly asked him about it in the comments.
WHY are the bloggers and health practitioners being so quiet on this issue?
It’s not just Chris. It’s pretty much everyone — except a handful of us who are asking questions and asking for accountability from WAPF and GPP.
Have you seen the C-reacive protein test results that are coming out? 5 reports so far from GPP customers whose numbers DROPPED when they got off FCLO. How can we explain that?
http://www.cheeseslave.com/fermented-cod-liver-oil-scandal-many-fclo-customers-report-health-problems/#crp
For this reason alone, we should take a hard look at FCLO and stop taking it until we learn more.
I love Chris Kresser and consider him a friend. But as a health practitioner, he made an oath to First Do No Harm.
I know we are all busy and I am willing to give him (and the others) the benefit of the doubt that they don’t have enough information yet. For this reason, I am going to email him right now and alert him that this conversation is happening about him here. Instead of talking about people when they are not here, we need to bring them into the conversation.
I will also contact Dr. Natasha Campbell McBride and Dr. Tom Cowan, and ask them for their accountability.
We need our doctors, health practitioners, bloggers, and other members of the press to stand up and be accountable.
And it needs to happen NOW. There is no amount of money and no amount of social standing or “political relationships” that should ever stand in the way of protecting people’s lives. Most especially the vulnerable members of our community.
Has it occurred to anyone that this issue has been blown way out of proportion by a few and that communication has been happening on the part of a few in a fashion that is repulsive? A simple facebook analytics analysis indicates that the Cheeseslave page is actively losing followers and that its influence continues to wane despite, or more likely because of, the adopted air of muckraking for its attempted reboot. For example, the “Cheeseslave” reports that she was at once publicly shamed and shunned, which is in itself a contradiction. However, just yesterday she posted up an attempt to publicly shame a person that was civilly indicating that he did not agree with the tone of the conversation. It is another problematic contradiction to observe on the one hand a group of people who disagree with being shunned and/or shamed themselves but are zealously behaving in the same way to others. Additionally, there is a curious amount of spamming links to Cheeseslave in the comments indicating that there is an agenda of attempting to use The Complete Patient’s blog to drive click traffic over to a website that derives ad revenues via click throughs. Many of the comments come off as click bait-ish. It’s at once curious and credulity straining. Also, with all due respect to Mr. Gumpert, The Complete Patient FB page has added about 100 likes over the 2 months that this issue has been playing out indicating that it is an extraordinarilly niche issue in and of itself, a bit of a curiosity but not a dynamic movement with broad reach like the food freedom and raw milk issues that have sustained this blog for very many years.
Also, has it occurred to anyone that’s lots of people have happy, healthy and constructive relationships with people both within and without WAPF apart from this drama between Sally and Kaayla and Anne Marie vs the world? That they are looking forward to the conferences to network and socialize and elevate the conversation despite this smaller side issue? That attending the conferences might be a way to constructively further the dialog and collective knowledge rather than to further the schism? If the intentions occurring here, that is, doxing people, discussing sending spies to Wise Traditions, publicly shaming dissenters and so forth is representative of the new organization is it any wonder that it’s a bit of a turn off? Speaking of the new organization, isn’t there a lot of work to do for the first annual conference and advertising it and what it stands for rather than focusing on what other organizations may or may not be doing? Seems like the priorities around here have taken a curious turn from constructive to destructive at some point. I wonder when that was. Was it accidental or an intentional hijacking? Perhaps I am wrong. Food for thought.
Whatever conference you may or may not attend and whatever products you may or may not consume: know your farmer, know your food. Let’s elevate the conversation please.
Most excellent observations, Miss Kerrie… it seems that while the new foundation claimed to be about democratic governance, unity, health, etc. the approach has taken the lower of the low roads, and their are all sorts of ethical and other storm clouds hanging around the entire affair about the hows and whys of those who have pushed this so hard…
Ok my last comment till dec, I swear. these comments of Raul and Kerrie, seem welcome news to me, they show just how desperate Weston Price is and that they somehow have realized, that the lots of Weston Price people coming here and to Cheeseslave’s site.have escaped Sally”s clutches. Comes just after the latest interview at Cheeseslave, of course they have to knock Cheeseslave, She is shining the light of truth on the underbelly of the beast. What can you do with dirty old men? Put them out to pasture, I guess. Must be a relief to all those women who had to put up with improper touching that he will no longer be able to do icky things to them or other women any more. Pardon me while I puke!
The part that gets me the most is women may have been so intimidated by Sally that they forced themselves to believe that her husbands inappropriate behavior was some how healthful,
and were afraid of saying anything or stopping him. In Short Sally was, how do I say this in a respectful way…No there is no respectful way. I will just say that what was done is Common behavior in cults, Burns me up when women are abused!
Oh nice, giving me negative ratings Weston Price puppets for defending women who were sexually abused by Sally’s husband, under her nose. That makes Sally the house madam, don’t you think? God knows what other cover ups and abuses have been going on there.
Nothing is so useless it cannot at least be used as a bad example ; i.e.. the very-bottom-of-the-barrel … so far : “house madam”. The word used that way, has an “E”, Joy.
…. Grown men shake our heads in disbelief when we see such a public cat-fight = illustrating how woe-fully wicked, women get against their own “sistahs”.
Sally Fallon Morell, is not a one-dimensional cartoon. Some of you would do well to step back from the fray, and think again about the immense good she’s done, over the last couple of decades
Please stop your demeaning, sexist, racist language.You should be banned from this blog. @Gordon S Watson
“Grown men shake our heads in disbelief when we see such a public cat-fight = illustrating how woe-fully wicked, women get against their own “sistahs”.
Please Mr. Gumpert, time to intervene with people hijacking the blog.
Lynn, I think Gordon Watson is primarily defending Sally Fallon Morell, even if he is crude in his preliminaries.
David, whatever he is doing he is using words such as “cat fight” and talking about “woefully wicked women” and “sistahs.”
If he wanted to defend SFM, he could have found other ways than a sexist, racist portrayal of her critics. This is not acceptable discourse.
I agree, definitely not PC. He has been sexist and racist in the past, and we’ve had our tussles about it. Believe it or not, this current comment represents an improvement in Gordon’s style.
Racist and sexist has nothing to do with PC behavior. It’s unacceptable behavior. I’m surprised it’s tolerated here no matter who the person is or how connected they are to the food sovereignty movement. It’s disgusting.
Karen and Lynne,
I have long tried to practice what I preach about the importance of free speech. That means I allow opinions here that might be different, or even repulsive, to some. As far as Gordon Watson goes, I have removed some of his comments, even banned him, at times in the past. As I said in my response to Judith McGeary, who yesterday scolded me (and Ron Schmid) for failing to somehow control the personal attacks she observed on this blog over the FCLO controversy, I have less control than some people like to think. Some people, like Gordon, glory in the attention they get for being somewhat offensive, and it makes them more offensive. Banning people is a last resort for me. I don’t like to do it, but I will do it if need be. But if I banned every person or called out every offensive comment, I probably wouldn’t have much time for anything else, including writing posts. Thanks for your understanding.
We all know that free speech describes one’s legal relationship with the government and has nothing to do with private entities. So please don’t hide behind that.
As a blogger, it behooves you to be discriminating in who you allow to comment here once they start spewing hate speech and bragging about it. Difference of opinion is one thing to permit. It’s quite another to excuse vile, disgusting ranting.
You dismiss Gordon as “not PC.” PC only means respectful. If you are saying he’s “only” disrespectful,” do you want that associated with your reputation?
What about the PPP Foundation? Is that going to have the same tolerance of sexism and racism pushers? As a principal, and as a veteran of going through recent ethical battles, I would think you would be eager to avoid tolerance of your friend, Gordon’s ethical compass and assure prospective PPP members that you will uphold high standards of integrity.
Thanks for the lecture, Lynne.
What does that mean?
Means I appreciate the suggestions.
“we all know” ? you mean = all right-thinking citoyens? And who determines THAT Central Party Line, day by day, Lynne? Your notion that “freedom of speech describes one’s relationship with the government and has nothing to do with private entities” … is ridiculous.
…. Although it may be news to you = it’s not a crime to hold an opinion on the politics of “race”, other than Eric Holder’s position. Since you’ve lobbed the lib-tard stinkbomb in to the discourse = ie “racism” – a good start in your education on the main topic of this forum … REAL MILK … would be = to study the scientific evidence that white folks continue to make the enzymes with which we digest milk, into adulthood. While others don’t. Point being | race is not a social construct. It’s a fact of life. That fact has important consequences.
…. As for ‘sexism” … that is SO yesterday’s news. Go find out what Dr Henry Makow has to say, one of the geniuses on that topic.
.. what’s comical, is = you taking Mr Gumper to task, as though he’s going to fall in line with your girlish demands!
I think most regular readers of this blog don’t actually read Gordon Watson’s posts. I expect that’s the way most of us solve the problem.
Looking away from permitted racism and sexism is not something I expect ethical people to do.
If I banned everyone who had racist or sexist views, I wouldn’t have many people left on this blog.
No one is asking you to ban people with racist or sexist views. They’re asking you to not tolerate the shared expression of it in your community.
David no you would not lose your readers….you just delete these comments. People can be as racist and sexist as they want but you don’t have to tolerate it in comments nor do your readers. No one has to be banned unless making these kind of comments is their only goal. And if so why would you even want them here.
Offensive comments are different…I’ve made comments some people find incredibly offensive and other people like. Same with comments others make….I may be steaming mad when I see them and someone else loves it. That is not the same …. sexism and racism are in a whole different league and it allowing them has to do with ethical values.
Maybe I’m missing something, but seems to me there have been a whole lot of sexist comments here just in the last 24 hours. So long as they aren’t insulting or abusive to another individual on the blog, I generally allow them, even if I disagree with them. In the final analysis, though, these are judgment calls that I make.
So is that an AOK to racism also just as long as it isn’t directed to any individual?
Just to get the facts straight for the record.
You haven’t told me which of the sexist remarks should be deleted, and which commenters banned. Similar for the racism… I’ll take the approach of Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, on pornography: “I’ll know it when I see it.” And I’m the decider.
So to repeat the question, sexist remarks are fine as long as they aren’t directed to any individual?
But racism is so subjective you’ll need to think about it?
Think you’re looking for a rule book, Lynne, and it doesn’t exist here. You’ll have to go some place else for that.
I’m trying to understand your policy since the new PPP foundation is so determined to get the ethics right.
Where are the common sense ethics which you seem to think was so lacking in WAPF?
Apparently, it’s not ethical to mislabel a food of dubious quality. But it’s ethical to let t basic elements of human rights get ridiculed, trampled and ignored on your blog?
a’workin’ vouz-self into high dudgeon, Lynne, you missed those most basic of human rights … freedom of conscience and freedom of expression. I recommend a “time out” reading Dr Makow’s expose of feminism as communism in drag … for someone as obviously hide-bound as you come off, it might be an epiphany. On the other hand, you’d do better to take Chairman Mao’s advice – “send the effete intellectuals back to the countryside”… a spell as a milk-maid would be just what the Dr ordered for your blood pressure
Lol, true dat!
as we used to say in the (so-called ) Pro_Life thing : “when you’re taking flak, you know you’re over the target”. I rest my case
Lynne, if he wasn’t good friends with Michael Schimdt, he would have been removed permanently a long time ago. He is active in Canada’s pro raw milk movement, so he gets flexibility on this blog, where others would be banned for good.
Mary, thank you for the connection. So, this is why defending his sexist/racist behavior as, he has been “worse” in the past is an excuse. Seriously? How much “worse” could he be? Like in the Klan?
I hope this new group is going to police its own better than WAP and the Raw Milk Movement.
People are watching for just this kind of ethical/moral lapse to emerge from those who pride themselves in doing the right thing.
“this is not acceptable discourse” and – right on cue – the kneejerk reference to the bogeyman, “the Klan”, give you away, Lynne. You’re going to find that = rather than just mouthe the platitude = contributors to this forum, actually do “think outside the box”. Many of us awakened and now understand that “Political correct-ness” was a term, coined in the Soviet Union, describing how good little comrades learned to self-censor so as to stay aligned with the Central Party Line.
… don’t get me started about “Freedom of Speech” … ‘what is allowed to be said’. I hang around with guys like Arthur Topham, who’s on trial in Quesnel right now, charged with “hate speech”. Fortunately, Gilad Atzmon showed up to educate the jury. I most strongly recommend those who care about freedom to read on the internet, view what’s on Arthur’s website today
I’m not sure I’ve ever mentioned this here on this blog, but why not now? The house that I live in was actually a brothel in the 1920s. I would like to offer it to the Fallon-Morells as a western headquarters for their work.
I stand corrected ( for once)
….I supposed the venting of poison + piling-on Sally Fallon couldn’t get worse … yet, within hours, a new low was plumbed : Here in BC. my reputation for blunt speech was earned = castigating people, lawyers / judges and govt. officials in person. but this guerrilla political animal has learned to pick his spots. Ask yrself, Amanda Rose = “would you say that to her face?”
I am not a part of WAP and never was. I have no particular allegiances to any of the ‘gurus’ out there. All I know is, I fed my kids the FCLO in good-faith upon reading the WAP website and doing what research I could and we had a negative experience because of that. See my post about the ’50 Cent Army’…every good dictatorship has to have one. I have enjoyed listening to Ann Marie’s video interviews–just for the information. I am a rational, thinking human so I can make my own decisions but it seems she does have a knack for gathering people to speak on issues. If Cheeseslave gets followers by getting the word out about a very important issue and does so by facilitating various voices (some of them somewhat dissenting and thinking that the FCLO isn’t all that bad)…then, more power to her! Not any worse than a person/company making its name and living under the don of an even larger organization that pushes it’s party line, no matter what the evidence and cost. I will always root for the independent thinkers, rather than the ‘party.’ Always.
When I read this, all I could think of was this (from Wikipedia)
The 50 Cent Party (Also known as 50 Cent Army) (Chinese: 五毛党 wǔmáo dǎng) are Internet commentators (Chinese: 网络评论员 wǎngluò pínglùn yuán) hired by the government of the People’s Republic of China (both local and central) or the Communist Party to create favorable articles, internet sites, bogus information and post comments on forums, social media networks and all kinds of news, exchange and journals online platforms favorable towards party policies in an attempt to shape and sway public opinion on various Internet message boards. The name derives from the fact that commentators are said to be paid fifty cents of Renminbi for every post that either steers a discussion away from anti-party or sensitive content on websites, bulletin board systems, and chatrooms,or that advances the Communist party line.Further they are deployed to make disparaging comments, spread falsehoods and misinformation about political opponents, critics of the Chinese communist party regime, and about any targeted national or international topic or entity, such as politicians, countries, organizations, etc.
Please see also:
At least Chris Kresser is telling the truth. He said he doesn’t use the fclo. Twist the old saying and you get “Do as I do, not as I say”.
Hey just saying if the stuff so good why isn’t Chris Kresser using it? But aside from that …Chris Kresser speaks regularly at WAP and stands to lose if he doesn’t toe the Supreme Leader’s line. Look to Dr Ron for how that worked out.
I don’t think most doctors test all the products they recommend.
“how could these people willingly take this poison?”
Many do not research for themselves. Those who never question anything are a good example. I can understand the term “sheeple”, they follow blindly. They follow for many reasons, desperation because modern medicine cannot fix their ills,searching for that magic pill, they want to believe in what they are told. Some are easily brainwashed. The Jim Jones incident is a good example, even Hitler, the Germans were in a depression like the rest of the world, he promised them the things they wanted and needed to hear at the time and it got him where he wanted to be. A few saw through him and they either kept their mouths shut or died trying to stop him.
” they are not permitted to speak negatively about it without the threat of losing their chapter. Chapter leaders have been given the role of robots dishing out recommended product lists in a cult-like blind trust that the powers that be know what is best. ”
I cannot understand why anyone would remain with an agency that behaves in this manner.
The Weston Price Foundation has pretty well defamed its reputation with this scandal. There are plenty of people who are upset and don’t plan to renew their membership. Who would want to remain with an agency that behaves this badly.
Part of my background is in communication and PR. Whether they were right or wrong (and I believe WAP is in the wrong), the more important thing is that they have terrible, PR. Perception matters and the perception of WAP is pretty low right now.
You are absolutely correct, M. I also have background in communication and PR, and early on privately advised WAPF to engage crisis management PR experts to help defuse this situation. I was told that wasn’t in the cards. No, Sally Fallon Morell seems to have made a decision very early on to “go nuclear,” as they say. She’s never wavered from that, unfortunately. As a result, WAPF could now be a case study in What Not to Do to When a PR Crisis Hits Your Organization.
M: I reiterate my previous comment that PR is a euphemism for propaganda (see “Propaganda,” Edward Bernays, 1928, available on line), and has had a very bad influence on public perception and policy both here and abroad. Discerning truth can be a messy business. But you’re right. They have repeatedly shot themselves in the foot (should’ve been issued only one bullet, like Barney Fife).
WAPF could be any big corp practicing safety last. Why are they operating under until it’s proven dangerous …..instead of until it’s proven safe. This is how we end up with thousands of chemical being released yearly, gmo food, crazy vaccines, drugs side effects ……..and now fclo.
@Karen. You’re right. WAP is using the Big Pharma defense. “Let’s wait until more people get sick.” That’s Chris Kresser’s opinion also.
I’m not really talking about the moral aspect of PR. I’m just talking about the fact that image will either make or break any organization–and that is increasingly how it is in this digital age and economy. There are different ways to both study and use PR. A good amount of PR is pretty awful stuff (that’s why I never did much in the industry with it–it was just part of my studies). However, there is an aspect of PR that teaches that every crisis is also an opportunity. I think the same can be applied personally to our lives–when we face unpleasant realities, we can either grow and become better or we can shrink, shirk and hide. In large corporations, that’s where ‘spin’ comes in. But, if you break down what PR really should be–it should be about relationship–with others. Truth is irrelevant in public perception–not nice but that is reality. Also ‘What is truth?’ Isn’t that the classic question from days of old? We can only talk about evidence and argument. The evidence in this case builds a strong argument that FCLO isn’t all it has been promoted to be.
I agree!! The last thing we need in this world is to give more power to alphabet agencies, or to believe that some government – ANY government (“or its agents”) should be looking after what are, in the end, our own responsibilities. There is only one outcome when the government gets involved in anything and that is disaster.
People need to realize that the only thing that is going to save them is themselves, and take appropriate action. Has little to do with cod liver oil, and everything to do with taking personal responsibility for our own lives, health and happiness. It needs to be universal – applied in every area of one’s life.
It is not the government’s responsibility to “save” anyone, nor is it Sally’s nor Dave’s. It is our own.
Remember – damage has already been done. The ONLY thing some government agency can do is to impose fines and possible jail time. WHAT DOES THAT SOLVE? Sure… They can shut down a business or two. And ten more will spring up in their wake.
It might save a person or two in the future from suffering the same damage – maybe. Nobody’s going to see cash but the government, nobody is going to get their health back if people are punished. Get over it.
The best way to send the message is to start complaining to the source, stop spending money on it, and spread the word. The last two will effectively do what the government will charge you for if you choose to use that weapon – and that is EXACTLY what government is… a weapon. And one that is normally turned on US at that.
By the time the government actually accomplishes anything at all (and its usually counterproductive anyway), people will be sickened, possibly die, and while the doctor bills (doctors? REALLY?? For something non-mechanical?!) aren’t going to be paid by the results of any possible class action lawsuit, you’d better not be late paying your taxes. Fines are never paid to the victims – restitution is, and you can’t get blood from a turnip. Or a jailbird.
Shut the suckers down with your mouths and your wallets (Open the first and close the second!!!!). THAT will be effective.
GrannySue
When FDA had enforcement proceedings against Wilderness Family Naturals, FDA charged them about 150,000 to pay FDA expenses for hotel rooms, meals, travel expense and attorney time. The case went on for 5 years. They had to terminate all their reseller contracts (web). This was because Ken and Annette with WFN linked to health benefits given at other sites (including government sites) with only ONE click rather than the TWO clicks and WFN was not aware that FDA had changed the rule from ONE to TWO. Should enforcement actions by FDA take place then it would be a very sad thing for the Wetzel family. I would just hope that the word of mouth campaign and calls to GPP will be sufficient to remove the product. After all this is an experimental product (one of a kind in the world) and there is no track record or short/long term safety studies have ever been conducted.
The key to getting people to stop spending money on Green Pasture FCLO is for the Weston A. Price Foundation to withdraw its support, put up red flags about its safety. GP is nearly entirely dependent on WAPF for sales. WAPF members stop buying the stuff and GP’s base of business goes away. It’s that simple.
Are there really that many WAPF folks still supporting him with their dollars? Will WAPF really be able to keep him in business by themselves? Based on the comments sections of most blogs I’ve been following, very few people are still insisting on supporting him. It would appear that most of his business has already gone away. I was assuming that he would go out of business soon.
Jenn, we can’t know for sure how his sales have been affected. But I do know there are still large contingents of people buying, based on WAPF’s recommendations. Just had an online exchange with the leader of one such contingent, who told me she continues to recommend FCLO to her followers. And I’ve had an Amish farmer who sells a lot of FCLO (based on WAPF’s recommendation) tell me that his sales of the Green Pasture product have been unaffected by the controversy. That is part of my concern: Large numbers of WAPF devotees don’t read the blogs or Facebook pages where this is being discussed….and are making their ongoing decisions based entirely on what Weston A. Price Foundation tells them.
Enough prominent bloggers have been warned by Sally to stop negative comments on the topic, that their followers have been swayed by their reassurances. I’ve seen MANY bloggers express doubts, then do an abrupt about face two days later, falling right in line, quoting the WAPF response word for word.
Maybe some people,like me, have only just discovered the depth of the controversy now. I admit I swallowed the reassurances of Sally Fallon in the quarterly without question. It was really Ann Marie of Cheeseslave who opened my eyes when I was searching for a recipe on her blog during Christmas. I read the blogs, I watched the videos, I called my mother to tell her to quit taking FCLO. Come to find out she had just been to the doctor and her Vit. D is low. Now I’m hoping this is why I have the awful skin rash, headaches, and inflammatory tendonitis which, I realized, started the year I started using FCLO, after it came out.
I know it hasn’t been proven that FCLO is the problem. But the way Dave W. and Sally Fallon have acted, so clearly having something to hide, is more than enough for me. He will not get another dime from me. My WAPF membership expires next summer — we’ll see then if I will renew my membership. I have followed the Weston Price eating since 1997. Very disappointed by the reactions from WAPF, but I can always just follow Dr. Price’s book.
I know not everyone uses facebook….This is what I posted on Davids facebook page in response to anothers comment. : 400 iu per teaspoon of Vit D is NOT going to raise anyones Vit D levels. The bottle of FCLO, that I just now looked at on Amazon, doesn’t even state how many iu’s you get of Vit D. Didn’t Ann Marie Michaels have her own scandal a while back, and her credibility in question? Her posts imply the FCLO caused illnesses and there is a potential lawsuit in the making. To quote a commenter on the post you linked: ” Blue ice ingredients : spearmint, peppermint oil, lemon oil,organic wintergreen flavor oil.” Gee, I can see why they felt burning et al in their throat. And another: ” . Vitamin D was 26. I had vitamin D levels of 18 (2013) and consistently low when tested until I stopped the FCLO and started taking a regular D3 vitamin after Dr. Kaayla Daniel’s report came out. Then it shot up in 4 months to 55 with very little effort and a tiny 5000IU vitamin D3 capsule per day.” You go from 400 iu to 5000iu–uh yes, it will then increase over time. I could go on… http://chriskresser.com/important-update-on-cod-liver-oil/
According to an article posted by WAPF, the vitamin D content in FCLO is 1950 IU per teaspoon. This should be adequate to get or keep vitamin D levels up if you take one teaspoon per day for years and eat a diet high in vitamin D containing foods like eggs and grassed butter. A search of Westonaprice.org-Cod Liver Oil Basics and Recommendations as of Nov 2 states as follows…”The high-vitamin fermented cod liver oil is sold as a food so does not contain vitamin levels on the label. However, after numerous tests, the approximate values of A and D have been ascertained at 1900 IU vitamin A per mL and 390 IU vitamin D per mL. Thus 1 teaspoon of high-vitamin fermented cod liver oil contains 9500 IU vitamin A and 1950 IU vitamin D, a ratio of about 5:1″. it also says “Please note that the fermented cod liver oil contains many co-factors that may enhance the body’s uptake and usage of vitamins A and D; in fact, many have reported results equivalent to those obtained from high-vitamin cod liver oil with half the recommended dose”, This indicates that, by WAPF information, the Fermented cod liver oil should be giving the result of 3,900 IU per day and be assembled even better than a 5000 IU capsule. I do not know what Green Pastures claims, but I can only wonder where WAPF got this information. I see a potential conflict opportunity to mislead the public because, WAPF receives money from Green Pastures. WAPF puts a vitamin D amount and Green Pastures doesn’t, but people go to there website for the information, so who is liable for the claims?
I’m not picking on your response, it is easier for me to respond to your statements this way;
“According to an article posted by WAPF, the vitamin D content in FCLO is 1950 IU per teaspoon. ”
I assume they are referring to the brand Green Pastures? WAPF would need to explain why they state the amount when it is not stated on the bottle. Did they post the testing they did? And the results from the labs on the labs papers?
“This should be adequate to get or keep vitamin D levels up if you take one teaspoon per day for years and eat a diet high in vitamin D containing foods like eggs and grassed butter.”
2000 iu is a maintenance dose, if you are depleted and depending on how much, 2000 iu may not bring your levels up to par. Plus, if you are not also taking other co-factors (K2,Boron, magnesium, etc), your levels will continue to stay low. It is impossible to get even adequate Vit D from foods (other than cod liver oil).
” after numerous tests, the approximate values of A and D have been ascertained at 1900 IU vitamin A per mL and 390 IU vitamin D per mL. Thus 1 teaspoon of high-vitamin fermented cod liver oil contains 9500 IU vitamin A and 1950 IU vitamin D, a ratio of about 5:1″. ”
If it doesn’t say it on the bottle… I could say I tested Organic Pastures milk and there is 1000mg Vit C in each 1/2 gal; my words don’t make it so. Again, I cannot fathom why WAPF would state the amounts in a serving when it is not on the bottle. As a consumer, I would not purchase the bottle that does NOT state what is in it and how much each serving has, and I would be extremely leery of an organization that promotes a product that is not fully labeled per what the WAPF claims. (I hope that isn’t confusing)
” I see a potential conflict opportunity to mislead the public because, WAPF receives money from Green Pastures. ”
Indeed, conflict of interest, or whatever the legal term is.
“WAPF puts a vitamin D amount and Green Pastures doesn’t, but people go to there website for the information, so who is liable for the claims?”
Since Green pastures didn’t make the dosage claim, I would assume they are not liable. I don’t know where that leaves WAPF, other than a credibility issue.
“I assume they are referring to the brand Green Pastures? WAPF would need to explain why they state the amount when it is not stated on the bottle. Did they post the testing they did? And the results from the labs on the labs papers?”
GPP has stated that vitamin content varies batch to batch and it is too expensive to test every batch for vitamin content. And as they consider it a food, like a carrot or a banana, they (GPP) think it is ok not to test. I was going to link to where I saw this – it was on one or two of their FAQs, but they are all kinda gone now: http://www.greenpasture.org/public/servicepages/searchresults/index.cfm?objectID=11&objectType=FAQ&method=/dbc/methods/FAQ/FAQdisplay_public.cfm&app=greenpasture http://www.greenpasture.org/utility/showArticle/?ObjectID=4480&find=FAQ&happ=siteAdministrator
I agree with you about vitamin D needed per day. However, WAPFers are told that the daily dosage of FCLO will take care of their vitamin D needs. Of course they have been all over the place on dosage . . . .
I’m not sure if you were making this point, but regardless, a lot of the issues FCLO users are facing could be that they are using this very expensive supplement and told that along with HVBO will basically be all that they need. It is possible that the problem that many people are facing is not the FCLO or not entirely the FCLO. It is possible it is a misinformation thing. People aren’t getting what they need, because they are being told they don’t need it and they are getting peer pressure in their chapter groups if they do use something else. You know, if you were really eating right and taking your FCLO, you wouldn’t need that other stuff. GPP isn’t the one teaching people this, it is WAPF. You have to wonder too how someone would fare if they spent the same amount of money on “less natural” A, D, and omega 3 supplements?
I am always amazed that so many follow blindly, even after others send up flags. Does “Buyer beware” fit? I encourage people to research all supplements (and other things) before buying. In the end, you are responsible for yourself.
Sylvia I am amazed to that they would do that now, after all the red flags have come out, but as for the people who had low vitamin D levels while taking it, HINDSIGHT is 20/20. A customer has a “right to know” and a 2013 blog post cites that Green Pastures had on their website that they had 2000-4000 IU per teaspoon. I don’t think it is there now, but they did apparently claim that at one time per this link: http://kellythekitchenkop.com/do-we-need-extra-vitamin-d-if-were-taking-fermented-cod-liver-oil/
WAPF was a very reputable organization in 2013 and nobody had reason to question them when they posted that lab reports indicate that GPFCLO had 1950 IU vitamin D and that the it was so much more absorbable it could even be double that. The customer was not following blindly, they were trusting a very reputable organization as well as Green Pastures to provide that per teaspoon. And with all the hype about GPFCLO and WAPF pretty much saying this was the very best CLO, a customer would feel confident to choose that, especially with all the scientists on board at WAPF. As Steve stated well, the people in chapters are often being told to rely on the FCLO, and the link I posted even responded to the lady whose 3 children had low vitamin D while on FCLO that perhaps they weren’t getting enough good fats. It seems to me that the problem is not with the customer, it is with the company producing the product which should be honest about the Vitamin D content. It is actually really sad to read that post and that mother who seemed to be blamed for why her children and herself were not able to get their vitamin D levels up with the FCLO. If WAPF is posting vitamin D information incorrectly, they should contact WAPF immediately and demand that it be corrected since WAPF has the majority of their customers. A good company would not want customers to be misled about the amount of vitamin D they are consuming. The health results can be devastating to somebody who, in good faith, takes their product and doesn’t get what they think they are getting in the amount of vitamin D. I am of the belief now that it never had even remotely that much vitamin D. When looking for vitamin D content,the website says that there is some data for discussion on the data page, but the data page then says it is down for updating. So, Green Pastures is now off the hook for vitamin D content based on their website, but why wouldn’t they want all that removed from WAPF’s website immediately…or is it beneficial to let people continue to believe it has that much vitamin D without the accountability?? Something to think about…
@Sylvia Gibson
“400 iu per teaspoon of Vit D is NOT going to raise anyones Vit D levels. The bottle of FCLO, that I just now looked at on Amazon, doesn’t even state how many iu’s you get of Vit D.”
Yeah and isn’t THAT weird?
“Didn’t Ann Marie Michaels have her own scandal a while back, and her credibility in question?”
I’m right here – you can talk to me. 🙂
Here’s my story on my “scandal” — you probably haven’t read it:
http://www.cheeseslave.com/what-i-learned-building-and-losing-a-million-dollar-company-how-failure-set-me-free/
Got any more questions about that? I’m happy to answer them.
“Her posts imply the FCLO caused illnesses and there is a potential lawsuit in the making.”
I never said that FCLO causes illness. I said that many people are reporting health problems.
List established…In an effort to try to contain the damage, a group of organizers is keeping an up-to-date list of all the chapter leaders and practitioners who still recommend FCLO despite the many warnings and calls for the manufacturer to recall the product.
how are they keeping that up? are they calling all of them?
We are keeping track by several means.
If people are so proud of recommending a product with so many reported adverse effects they shouldn’t mind being in the FCLO report. Right?
Dave Wetzel, have you no decency? Be a responsible person and voluntarily recall your product. Even if a fraction of the cases Ann Marie has documented are related, do you want to be known as someone who turned away from doing the right thing?
Do you want your children to remember you like this after you’re gone?
There is only a short time to save face. Please take the opportunity to show you cared about your loyal customers.
Now the purge begins…..whoa….did you say this well! Exactly spot on…this is now beyond negligence.
Sarah Pope (Healthy Home Economist) just posted a WAPF membership drive announcement. If people join the WAPF in November-December they get $100 USD worth of coupons from their retailers. Interesting.
This special was run last year, too.
Anyone here going to the WAPF conference that would be willing to report to David Gumpert on the situation for a story?
Yes, I fully intend to report, without animus, my impressions, if I don’t get run out of Dodge first. I have many friends in this organization, not bigwigs, just a lot of first-class folks among the peons. This may explain why I was taken by surprise by Kaayla Daniel’s report. I did read Archie Welch’s little book in 2012, but had no idea of the implications, and kept putting that poison into my bod for another 2 1/2 years. I’m not a journalist, but know how to use the language, and will deliver an eyewitness account either a week from Sunday evening, or the following Monday.
Good to hear Gary, sometimes the best relevant info comes from “peons” and David is possibly now too high visibility that some will avoid being placed in the spotlight. I look forward to it but please do post it here.
Gary….you are not alone. Been there and done that also with Archie’s book. I wish it wasn’t so but it is. Now how to undue the damage???
I will be interested to hear what you think. My impression is that WAP could care less about those injured.
Agreed. Next weekend will be interesting, to say the least. Hope some of my friends show up.