There’s an interesting survey going on from the Raw Dairy listserve about how much people are paying for raw milk. When I filled it out last evening, here were the results, based on 39 responses:
Some 70% were paying over $6 a gallon, and 30% were paying over $10 a gallon. I have to think that most or all of those paying over $10 a gallon are from California, where the price is on the order of $16-$17 a gallon; I pay $5 a gallon in New Hampshire, and $10 a gallon in Massachusetts. (You can fill out the survey here, but I believe you first have to sign up for the listserve through Yahoo.
The listserve had a story recently about scarcities in California, even at $17 a gallon, including a tale of how consumers await Claravale Farm deliveries to particular stores, and of how fights have broken out when the supply quickly drew down.
I glean a few messages in this information:
- There is a serious economic opportunity for those dairy farmers seeking to escape the commodity economy, especially one in whichn producers of conventional milk are losing money on every gallon of milk their cows produce. (Here’s an article I just wrote for BusinessWeek.com about the implications of that trend.) These raw milk prices are certainly high in comparison to conventional milk, but need to be seen as a combination of the high costs associated with producing, marketing, and conforming to the tight regulations for high-quality unpasteurized milk. Strong demand, of course, is an essential component.
- There will undoubtedly be loud complaints about these prices, especially during these difficult economic times–and ammunition here for the “keep food cheap” crowd that dominates food production in this country. The problems being exposed in the new documentaries “Food Inc.” and “Fresh!” are fundamentally an outgrowth of the keep-food-cheap mentality. You crowd animals together, plug them with antibiotics, and feed them the cheapest junk possible—all as ways to keep your costs down, and thereby maintain margins.
- Related to the previous, this is a classic example of what some refer to as artisanal food versus factory food. Artisanal food will always cost more, as well it should, since it can only be produced in limited quantities, requiring more labor and land than factory food.
In my opinion, these three messages help explain the desire by the food lobby to push through so-called food safety legislation that treats smaller owner-operated operations treated the same as larger operations. I was speaking today with Mark Kastel of Cornucopia, a nonprofit that pushes for adherence to organic regulations, and he says the big danger in the new food safety effort is “a one-size-fits-all approach” that threatens to “economically damage the most promising part of the food economy.” He agrees with Steve Bemis and others on this blog who have pushed for an exemption for farms of a certain size.
The problem is that goes against the grain of the food industry in this country. Fast-growing numbers of smaller producers making a good profit selling nutritionally-dense food is a threat. So you try to sabotage them every which way you can.
We need not use our imaginations on this one—the heavy-handed campaigns against raw milk producers in New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Michigan demonstrate the readiness of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to use the new powers it will get via food safety to expand its war on smaller food producers.
***
What goes around usually comes around. That’s about all I can say about a re-hashing of the 2006 illnesses allegedly from raw milk produced by Organic Pastures Dairy Co. The discussion, on a food blog that seems to have just heard about raw milk (and explores safety issues), seemed to have ended when the two most serious cases were settled out of court, and there were handshakes all around, but apparently some sore spots remain. The discussion following the post has food-poison lawyer Bill Marler, Weston A. Price Foundation head Sally Fallon, and Organic Pastures owner Mark McAfee engaging in a discussion/debate of sorts.
While I agree with your 3 points above, this I cannot swallow:
"In my opinion, these three messages help explain the desire by the food lobby to push through so-called food safety legislation that treats smaller owner-operated operations treated the same as larger operations…Fast-growing numbers of smaller producers making a good profit selling nutritionally-dense food is a threat. So you try to sabotage them every which way you can."
No doubt, conspiracy theories are sexier and more exciting than what’s really going on: small producers are an afterthought (or no thought) when these policies are being developed and implemented. The blogs, attendance at NAIS "listening sessions," movies like Food, Inc and Fresh, and the various campaigns to give small farmers a louder voice are working to some extent. But, comments like above really damage credibility. You’re not fighting an effort to destroy niche markets. The real challenge is to find a place at the table to counter a "one size fits all" policy. As it stands, that voice is mostly ignored, IMHO.
On that link to the constipation blog, talk about a credibility destroyer. Since I’m actually fascinated with the idea of finding common ground, and moving past one size fits all, it is just sad to see what the "leaders" in the raw movement continue to say (in the comments part of the blog piece). The "know your farmer" is an excellent idea in theory, but has failed for raw milk in some parts of the country.
Once again, she must be getting her information from a farmer that is bent on telling lies. It sounds like Sally Fallon needs to ask the farmer about the facts again. Maybe she doesnt know that he originally stated that the Martin child was talking on his cell phone when the farmer called the hospital and now the story switches to he was sitting up in bed and eating. Thats the problem with lies. One tends to forget what story was told.
Regardless of everyones opinion as to why the Martin child became so ill (HUS), e.coli 0157:H7 does this type of damage. The Martin story is about the damage this pathogen can do to a childs little body. Heres the latest outbreak. You many not want to eat Nestle Toll House cookies. 70% of the victims are under 19 years old.
http://www.marlerblog.com/2009/06/articles/case-news/nestle-toll-house-prepackaged-refrigerated-cookie-dough-linked-to-e-coli-o157h7-illnesses-25-hospitalized-7-with-hemolytic-uremic-syndrome-hus/
cp
I respected the businessman representing raw milk for his independence and tenacity in going to a large dairy meeting (NCIMS) recently, and getting a seat at the table. Then he spoke…there and elsewhere. Okay, the stuff was great material to laugh at over drinks later, but the overall disrespect toward food safety, and moreover the attacks on victims of food poisoning, were sobering. The latest comments on that other blog by the so-called leaders in the raw milk movement show their immaturity and, frankly, naivet. Too bad loyalty trumps logic when it comes to the hard questions in this movement.
by Marler Clark 6/19/09
"We urgently need increased funding for the agencies responsible for public health"
The math is simple –more people–more resources — the faster the outbreak can be detected– and means fewer illnesses.
Oh if we only had just a little more money we could eliminate E. coli, ebola, hiv, tb, std, chd, mental illness, warts and raw milk!!!
Perhaps someone should tell our leaders spending more money has not worked well up to this point and that the bottom of the unending money pit has been found and that pit is now filled in with the IOUs of many future generations. Economic child abuse? And no one is outraged?
To protect the public from food bourne illnesses produced by the system is about as futile as a dog chasing its tail. Big Ag has utterly failed we must return to small farming and soon.
That story from 2006 has been beating that poor dead horse so many times, too many unanswered questions. When the same old rhetoric is used time and agian, it only serves to shut out those who did listen. Until new information comes to light, what purpose is it to continually beat a dead horse?
I haven’t seen the new documentaries Food Inc. and Fresh! yet. A coworker said she wasn’t sure she wanted to know how her food was produced/processed as she knew it would cause her to change her diet. There are a few of us who bring in fresh foods from our gardens, it encourages others to use the farmers markets and to try growing thier own.
Kudos to the small producers, I hope they continue to profit.
I paid $7.59 for 1/2 gal raw milk at the CO-OP yesterday. On OP’s web site it is $5.00 for 1/2 gal. Since it is unadulterated and tastes a whole lot better than boiled milk, it is worth it.
It would be nice if the raw milk was sold at the farmers market under the freeway on Sundays.
Food Safety Enhancement Act HR2749
"AND NO ONE WOULD BE ALLOWED TO DRINK RAW MILK"
Food Safety? Yea sure and indeed the world is flat!
If TPTB be do not succeed in taking away our ability obtain raw dairy [and all natural foods] by debasing the currency surely they intend to do it by "law."
Next year we may be very happy to buy a gallon of raw milk for $30 if we are even ALLOWED.
Please visit this website and learn alittle about "Ancient Milk" the word used to describe raw milk by the FDA and the NIH. All the claims and good things about rw milk are clearly stated here.
I wrote a raging spewing 400 word post and then erased it as not being constructive. I detest your lack of responsibility taken by the FDA for the hundreds of thousands of deaths that they cause each year by their sterile food and drug pushing greed based poliices. You are both part of that carnage. Please respect that we want no part of that.
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/probiotics/
Mark
The magic ancient milk argument isn’t going to help much in changing policies IMHO (they will keep laughing). There are plenty of alternatives to raw milk for probiotics (and nutrient dense foods). If you want to increase access to raw milk and change policies, instead, consider a message that speaks to TPTB’s concerns: 1) acknowledge that outbreaks from raw milk can happen and show empathy for the patients (even if you don’t have any – at least fake it), and 2) demonstrate that raw millk can be made as safe as any other raw product that is sold to the public through sanitiation, HACCP, warning labels, etc. Simply being organic and feeding grass is not a viable food safety plan.
Perhaps if representatives came to the table with more thorough, science-based approach to food safety instead of unaccepted health claims, and focused on the unfairness of food bans , there could be some progress.
Why is a policy required to purchase food? What law states that any entity has the right to dictate what one buys or consumes?
"There are plenty of alternatives to raw milk for probiotics (and nutrient dense foods). "
Why must one use an "alternative"?
"If you want to increase access to raw milk and change policies, instead, consider a message that speaks to TPTB’s concerns:"
Your statement is one-sided. Why doesn’t tptb consider a message that speaks to the people regarding conserns. It is a freedom of choice that is being taken away from the people.
"1) acknowledge that outbreaks from raw milk can happen and show empathy for the patients (even if you don’t have any – at least fake it), and "
I must have missed it, who and when was it said that outbreaks from raw milk can’t happen? I do recall empathy for those children and the nurse from NoCal, I also recall the continued slamming of those who oposed what was said. As said previously, the same old rhetoric burns people out and they stop listening.
"2) demonstrate that raw millk can be made as safe as any other raw product that is sold to the public through sanitiation, HACCP, warning labels, etc. Simply being organic and feeding grass is not a viable food safety plan. "
This has been done, Claravale & OP are 2 daries that have shown it is possible.
Shame on anyone for expecting people to conform to anothers beliefs. Why are people expected to conform to "science based" approach? Those unaccepted health claims are factual to those who it has shown a positive result for. Shame on anyone who belittles those facts.
I’ve had patients over the years who have lowered thier cholesterol significantly by eating a bowel of old fashioned rolled oats a day. In 30-60 days it was "normal". Thier experiment worked. Good science there. AND they didn’t have to worry about horrid side effects of any statin drugs. Amazing! I can only imagine that to tptb that wasn’t true science. It doesn’t matter that it worked for those people.
Food safety- you have the confined feedlots, the poor soils, the contaminated crops, that harbor numerous deadly pathogens, the animals are fed unnatural feeds, they are injected with numerous chemicals, they are sent to slaughter houses where they obtain more variety of pathogens, they are subjected to chemicals, irradiation, God knows what else. This is your idea of FOOD SAFETY? How could that be? It is poisoning of the masses.
What is scientific about this? What is scientific about the current governmental food safety regs? Potentiates (sp) Pollution, contamination of animals, people and the environment…. This produces a scienario of what should be unaccepted health and welfare towards the human race and the environment.
I have seen nothing that shows that tptb are intending to clean up anything….only more of the same.
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/647.html
The Health Dangers of Genetically Modified Food [and genetically modified bacteria and the COVER UP that took place]
60 minute video by Jeffery Smith author of Seeds of Deception
Let the so called food safety experts prove what Jeffery Smith states is wrong.
The mountain of evidence against the so called food system has surpassed the tree line and can easily be seen by all if they only open their eyes and look!
Believe TPTBs scientists? I don’t think so!
The people upholding the regulation arent bad people, but the policies they have to adhere to are skewed in Big Ags favor. The aim of Big Ag is to produce tons of cheap food, not artisinal food. Theres a world of difference here.
Science is a good thing to have on your side. Scientific dogma is not. Quite a few of the more virulent pathogens have arisen from our attempts to sterilize our environment. Perhaps it would be better to understand that enriching and culturing a few L. monocytogenes cells from a product is fairly wasteful and meaningless if in general there are no associated illnesses. At the same time, it is reasonable to have an appropriate warning label on foods such as soft cheeses that might contain the organism.
The "one size fits all" model of agriculture won’t work. It is impossible to monitor effectively and has the horrific effect of turning peaceful, productive people into law-breakers. This is the status quo, however. Until more small farmers are invited to the regulatory table, things will remain dysfunctional.
If that is so, it is a sin equal to actively pushing small farms into oblivion.
Never mind. The reality is that the movement is looking dangerously as if it might reach critical mass, and perhaps sooner than later. If the notion that industrial-style food is neither safe for bodies nor economies takes hold, then Con Agra and Monsanto and all the rest will be in very serious trouble. THAT is the issue for industrial ag right now. And as the evidence builds that all this heart disease and diabetes and cancer and developmental disease and on and on is related to our food, watch out. Likewise, if the bell ever rings in our collective consciousness that local economies (and the human community relationships that require them) are being killed off by centralized production models, and by centralized control of just about everything, then there will be no stopping the cry for reform.
"But is there truth in advertising? "
I would say, NO, there is not.
http://www.sustainabletable.org/issues/animalwelfare/
How could anything from these places be good for anyone?
The warning sign is about the size of a 3 x 5 card. It is hooked to a clip that is attached to every shelf. You can’t miss it when you purchase raw milk. In big letters it says, Customer Advisory and then below that it says, WARNING in bold letters, followed by this sentence: This product has not been pasteurized and therefore may contain harmful bacteria that can cause serious illness in children, the elderly, and persons with weakened immune systems.
Im curious if the raw milk point of sale warning signs are in all stores across the nation or only in California. Kudos to Whole Foods Market for being proactive on this topic. Consumers need to be aware of the choice they are making before they purchase raw milk.
Don, thank you for the link to the videos on GMO food. I am looking forward to watching them. I just finished reading a book on the topic that Bill Marler posted on his blog. It is excellent. http://www.marlerblog.com/2009/06/articles/lawyer-oped/robyn-obrien-the-unhealthy-truth/
Mark, you got caught with your pants down.stop with the lies!
cp
What happened to Joel? Or is everyone in the raw milk argument, (did he even argue for raw milk?), particularly those with rational statements, represented only by Organic Pastures and Weston A. Price Foundation? Is every argument made a venue for you to lash back at them instead of having constructive conversation about a topic at hand? I fail to see what Mark McAfee has to do with my statement about Karma.
Please, do tell me how the Karma may affect Joel Salatin.
http://polyfaceyum.blogspot.com/2009/06/joels-visit-to-washington.html
Maybe I read too many different blogs that day. There are other players in this than Mark McAfee and Weston A. Price Foundation, with different perspectives though. That story is old. There are clearly many food poisoning issues – frozen pizza, peanut butter and cookie dough for instance.
While our economy is struggling, and people in the world are hungry, incorporating a monster like the NAIS is hardly a priority, in my opinion. Educate the public, but do not limit their access to resources. Spend all that money on education. That is where I stand, and I doubt you will convince me otherwise, even with pictures of a dying child. There are so very many things children are more likely to die of. Take accidents for instance, or burn injuries. Starvation may even be one of them. I’ll look that one up. 1/100,000 loses a life and there are new regulations to protect EVERYONE. Like healthcare regulating nurses out of being able to actually take care of their patients, we are going to regulate ourselves out of being able to eat. IMHO, it is a power struggle, power issue, not a safety one. Who can sue who for what? Whose fault is it? That is what "food safety" boils down to.
Regretably freedom of choise isn’t one of our trump cards for they have even severely limited that as well. And all in the name of food safety.
I am away for 24 hours and now I have been caught with my pants down and lying??!!
Would someone please clue me in….when were my pants down and what lies have I now told?
For your information…I look pretty darn good with my pants down. I just finished a one month milk diet that included about 300 pushups , god knows how many pull ups,and running a couple of miles per day… I have never felt better.
CP….just for your information…"magical milk" is not discussed at the NIH-DHHS website. Ancient Milk is described as milk prior to the advent of the required "killing of filthy milk" and parboiling or pastuerization.
I would love to take you or any one up on an invitation to discuss raw milk and deliver the hard science about its effectiveness in controlling or eliminating: IBS, Ulcers, Lactose Intolerance, Resp Infections, asthma and allergies, colds etc. In addition to the hard science referenced at the NIH website, there is a mountain of peer reviewed study from EU and published in the JAMA, Lancet and other notable publications.
When I was at the NCIMS conference and the FDA refused to take delivery of six inches thick of hard data and research supporting amendment of ( interstate commerce of Raw Milk that is tested and inspected by state agencies ) CFR 1240.61 and refused to be in the same room with me and refused to hold a conversation with me….the answer is simple: This is an FDA learning disability problem….Not a failure on my part to try and communIcate with them. It cost me $1800 to try and talk with the FDA.
CP and Lykke,…..you suffer from the same syndrome. You have an agenda to support.
I spent the last three days at two conferences and EXPOS here in Fresno. Raw milk was even spoken about my our wonderful Mayor during the keynote as the invitees drank our delicious raw chocolare milk…..Yum was the word. OPDC was the special guess of Wholefoods at two of them. They were proud sponsors and shared their table with OPDC. The reason….we share the same passion and message for WHOLE UNPROCESSED FOODS.
From these three conferences….we now have six more Fresno doctors prescribing raw milk to kids ( because the chief of medicine at the leading pediatric center VCH prescribes it very effectively ). Each of these western trained doctors expressed to me their reservations about the side effects of pastuerized milk on kids. We have problably 100 new raw milk consumers and we will have ten more tours of the dairy next week.
This paradigm igores you….this paradigm will shift not because of your dying back ground noise but because of simple economics and the truth at the raw grass roots level.
The truth is this….the dairy industry is protected by lies repeatedly told to them and the public about raw milk in support of pastueurized milk. Many people are now scared of pastuerized milk and many are scared to even try one glass of raw milk becuase of their experiences with pasteurized milk….because it gave them a terrible gas pain and the runs for hours.
When I can convince these same people to try raw milk….guess what, they emerge with a look of bewilderedment and a smile….then they get pissed because they know they have been lied to not by Mark McAfee but GOT MILK and the FDA. Then they say "this is good stuff" and want more.
It is becoming quite the slogon….you are not lactose intolerant…..you are pastuerization intolerant.
The only products that seem to have life in processed dairy are thos with bacteria and culture….the cheeses and yogurts….the dead products are dying taking innocent hard working dairymen with them.
CP…that is the big lie. I have tried several times to engage you and or meet with you to share.But you do not engage….you namelessly shoot from behind rocks
CP….my pants are up at least for now. Naked is pretty darn nice here at the dairy and the cows do not seem to mind at all. At least I get some natural sunshine. Not sure where you get your sunshine if any.
If you get the impression that I think you are irrelevant….you are right becuase you are, The people that matter are the people. The hundreds of people that I spoke with and sampled raw milk with in the last few days. Those people matter. The truth has been exposed and you are part of the dust of dead food history. What you represent is indigestible and fake just like your name.
FOOD, Inc is now creating tons of calls at 1-877 RAW MILK ( OPDC ). People are getting it.
Processed food is making us all sick. Unprocessed whole foods make us well. This is true food safety. Not your paradigm of sickness profiteering and sterile preserved junk calories.
What do you not get about this?
One more thing. Dr. Amanda Rose shared with me that one of the interesting findings of her raw milk consumer study was this: raw milk consumers are generally much smarter and more highhly educated than the standard consumer.
Fancy that…..
Mark
BTW, loved your entertaining evidence list. # 11 is quite creative. Out of curiosity, how do you know this informationthat both kids were wearing bracelets that warned medical provider to not give antibiotics?
cp
-Blair
While Im waiting to hear your answer about # 11 on your evidence list, I found something in a newspaper article about the Martins thoughts on wristbands.
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006/11/26/news/californian/20_59_3711_25_06.txt
[The Martins said they are also in the process of meeting with a few hospital ombudsmen to make sure that what happened to Chris does not happen to another child. The said that if the first doctor Chris saw when he went into the hospital on the first night would have put a wristband on him noting that he should not receive a dose of antibiotics, then the second doctor may not have administered the dose that sent Chris spiraling into trauma. All they needed was one little wristband, Mary said]
Heres what you stated on your evidence list: [The two kids that got sick were both given antibiotics when they were wearing bracelets that warned medical providers to not give antibiotics because an antibiotic-resistant pathogen was suspected. Doctors screwed up and gave huge dosages of antibiotics to these kids and within hours they nearly died.]
Your lies are pathetic. Mark, I think you are missing the gene that allows you to distinguish right from wrong. One again, stop with the lies about the Martin and Herzog kids.
cp
i more and more believe you deserve(d) whatever happen to you or yours. in the sense that what goes around comes around, you reep what you sow, etc… i have no sympathy for you and find you an ugly ill willed individual.
you’ve got a mind-set that will bering you nothing but grief and misery the rest of your life. you need to wakeup and smell the coffee. you need to learn to be responsible for your own mistakes/decisions.
you need counciling…
ii’ll tell you this, i know enough about people that i think you are a lost cause, if i knew you in real life i’d have to give up trying to help you and distance myself from you as you’re the type who needs to drag everyone down to your level so that you can feel superior.
am i wrong?
the world is not fair, just or easy. but it is, for most of us better then never living.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a9WBQ0UBiWCY
Bloomberg.com
Dairy-Cow Kill to Double Milk Prices on Biggest Slump Since 1980 by Jeff Wilson
"The National Milk Producers Federation in Arlington Va. will pay dairies to slaughter 103 000 US cows in the coming months."
Conventional dairy farms are struggling to survive many have gone out of business while successful small raw milk dairy farmers are treated as if they are drug dealers!
Something is fundamentally wrong with this picture!
In the legal " discovery process" it was disclosed as evidence. The " do not give antibiotics bracelet" was confirmed upon delivery of the medical records that clearly showed this in the patient history. It is part of the medical record, just as the fact that both kids had eaten spinach in the days prior to getting sick. This was all known from very early on.
Medical records are confidential.
Some one is not telling you the whole truth.
Can we now move on and discuss why pastuerized cookie dough is being recalled and why pastuerized milk in MA killed three in 2007. Pastuerization is a pathegic excuse for filithy milk production… a process that is 110 years old. The bacteria have evolved and have overtaken it. The conditions in these plants chemically create good environments for pathogens. We know this from the peer reviewed literature. The processing environmen is an ecosystem….yet the FDA refuses to think of it as anything other than a sterile process. This envites pathogens. Sterile is code for "Pathogen Disneyland".
CP and Lykke, you both like to control the conversation and keep it on raw milk food safety. Lets talk about food safety…..lets talk about your failed systems including pastuerization that kill people all the time. Lets talk about organic acid producing bacteria that are killed by pastuerization that are now confirmed to be essential to our health.
Pastuerization is a danerous and failed science. if you do pastuerize you had better be careful about the food chemistry of the resulting foods created and produced. It better be cultured with some good bacteria to keep it safe.
I see a future with both pastuerized products and raw dairy products living in symbiotic harmony. Because you can eat pastuerized dairy products when you have Lactose Intolerance if you have recolonzed your gut with raw milk bacteria. So I see big dairy loving smaller raw dairies and the big dairies specializing in cheap milk for cheeses and icecreams….while the raw dairies specialize in fluid raw milk so people can eat the cheaper processed partial foods and not get sick or suffer LI.
Please give me a hint about my supposed lies, what lie did I tell ? Would love to know.
Am I making you feel uncomfortable yet…..your pastuerized milk sure as hell makes lots of people very uncomfortable with gas cramps and severe diarrhea. If it was such a great product….then why does it not sell like hot cakes. It is a crashing market and the prices show it. Economics will change this pardigm faster than anything else.
In the future there will be living raw milk and partially alive milk that is cultured after being pastuerized. You watch. It is already happening.
Mark
Anyway, I just wanted to share with you all an article in my local newspaper today; The Sacramento Bee, pg. A4, Monday, June 22, 2009. "Alter cows’ diet, save the planet, farmers learn." Seems that when the farmer takes the cows off soy/corn/garbage and puts them on alfalfa, flax, and pasture grass they have "shinier coats, fewer foot problems, and no stomach ailments." Wow! or can I say Duh?!!!! Oh yes, they also produce less methane gas due to thier improved diets! The farmer is thus reducing his carbon footprint. So, Mark is right, this pardigm of feeding animals un-natural foods, thus producing unhealthy products is going to come to an end. These truths are slowly but surely being told in the mainstream media, a little at a time. Of course it helps if it has to do with ‘saving the planet." Hey, I’ll take the truth anyway I can get it.
Alyssa
Seems an easy way to manipulate the price of dairy. Will the slaughtered dairy cows lower the price of beef?
"Alter cows’ diet, save the planet, farmers learn."
Do some more research beyond what is "fed" to the media. If it were that simple, diet change would have been incorporated many years ago. There are numerous examples of "grass fed" cattle shedding pathogens and having other ailments: that is fact. It drives me crazy when broad conclusions are made about a few obscure studies. There are other very positive reasons to support pasture-based systems, but saying that simply changing diet solves the "pathogen" or other health problems is based on media reports and hype. Surely, this group is above that (being at the top of the intellectual scale per Mark’s comment on a recent survey).
Mark,
Hey, you are turning us on, lol. Here’s an idea. Lets have a raw milk summit like David proposed: briing everyone together. As a twist, lets all drop trou and lay it on the table. Who’s is bigger? If that doesn’t work, we can shoot a conference photo with both sides mooning each other.
Seriously, I agree with Blair. There is a hint at NOT talking past each other. On my end, I’ll offer this: thinking more about it, I spend way too much time getting frustrated with 1-3 people in the raw milk movement…trying to correct them when they have "oversights" with the data (okay, or outright lie). I don’t lie, and find it so frustrating. But, are these people really worth the frustration? In contrast, reading again through this thread (thanks David for providing the open discussion), I think…there are many others here who listen and interact (and I doubt the majority would ever say someone "deserved" to suffer from a serious illness per hugh betcha).
Really, there is something to discuss here. Yeah, lets drop trou and come to the table. There are ideas about how to move past the possibly exaggerated risks and health claims perpectuated by public heath and raw milk proponents, respectively.
I believe Alyssa was quoting the Sacramento Bee. As for changing the diets of the animals, why would they? It is cheaper to feed them slop and trash then grasses; or whatever is natural to the animal.
Studies have been out for at least a few years regarding the decreased "gasses" of grass fed cows. It doesn’t take a "scientist" to figure out the un-natural crap fed to animals, or forcing them to live under un-natural conditions or polluting the environment promotes a circle of continued contamination destined to spread and enter the food chain, thus affect those who consume some part of it.
I think there was a grant for studing cow farts in the 70s, in the north west (this was the 1st of others that I had heard about). Somewhere around $100000.00 which was a lot back then.
Where did Alyssa make "broad conclusions are made about a few obscure studies"?
I’m all for a natural diet – from chicken feathers to ruminant brains…there have been mistakes. Okay, now the people who believe feeding chicken feathers is good will be all over my case. I admit that the comment to Alyssa related to some recent media that suggests "grass feeding" is a panacea to prevent pathogens in ruminants (especially E. coli O157:H7). There simply isn’t good evidence to back that up. A re-hashing or cherry picking of one or two papers in a sea of other papers isn’t enough to make such a claims.
Like you, perhaps, I prefer to buy pasture-raised meats and poultry…when I can find them, and fortunately I have enough money to buy these items at a premium price. At the same time, I don’t believe based on the data that these products are uniquely free of foodborne pathogens, nor do I think that "attacking" other (big) agriculture systems is the best way to promote smaller food systems like pastured animals. They are different markets – I am supportive of regulations that acknowledge these differences (do not try to eliminate one or the other). One size does not fit all.
Alyssa
Yes, missed your point. I apologize.
"Plus a change, plus c’est la mme chose."
An old proverb meaning "much has changed, much is still the same".
I don’t believe that the quality products from small producers needs to be a "separate market" for the majority of persons consuming these foods. The industrial food system has made animal foods unnaturally cheaper in price, which allows overconsumption.
Many families with limited income have juggled their budgets so that they can buy the pastured eggs, meats and milk, even at the higher prices. These families buy less quantity of these higher priced, higher quality products and fill out the meal with more cost effective vegetables, legumes and grains, which is a healthier diet and is more typical of the native diets of many other cultures. It is a problem when the WIC and similar programs refuse to allow their customers to use the WIC coupons for organic foods or farmers markets.
I do realize that pricing varies greatly across the country and too many people in this country do not know how to cook or plan a nutritious meal. Our community gardens have several plots that grow organic produce for our local community kitchens and food banks. Many have volunteers who can help with menu planning and recipes to help stretch the food dollar. Perhaps it’s time to reintroduce home economics in a gender neutral version.
There will always be those whose only consideration is getting the cheapest price, regardless of quality, but limited income shouldn’t have to be a barrier to healthy food.
http://news10now.com/content/all_news/romemohawk_valley/475384/dairy-farmers-calling-for-help/?RegionCookie=1013
The SOUL-LESS dairy food processors are announcing RECORD PROFITS and at the same time are destroying the dairy farmers that supply their raw materials so one could expect their profits to soar even futher next year. And the futher decline of the health of Americans consuming the toxic APPROVE garbage they produce.
The EPITOME OF GREED and LIES comes with the systems stamp of APPROVAL and none dare call it what it is!!!
"nor do I think that "attacking" other (big) agriculture systems is the best way to promote smaller food systems like pastured animals"
It is noble to want to provide a growing world population with ample food. I think this was the original aim of "BigAg". Like any good idea, it has some good and bad manifestations. Lately a lot of bad ones are coming to light. I’m sure all here are aware of this.
There is room in the world for both small, local farms and BizAg, but the ground rules should not be the same for both. Due to the preponderance of BizAg’s influence on regulation, there has been an overly-expensive and burdensome toll placed on small farms which has led to the demise of many of them. This has to change so that more people have access to fresh, local food rather than processed, transported food, and to support very ancient and sustainable farming practices and the livelihoods derived from that practice.
I’d be interested in any ideas you have to promote small farming.
The food’s cheap. Just don’t ask where it came from, is the title of the above article on director Robert Kenners documentary Food, Inc.
Kenner is quoted in the final paragraph of the article, I didn’t realize that food was such a subversive topic. I didn’t have any idea. I think on some levels I could have done a film about nuclear terrorism and had greater access.
Farmers as well as consumers are victims of a cheap food policy established by government and industry for the sole purpose of control. Kenners awakening to the subversive nature of the food industry is a reality many farmers have been keenly aware of and struggling against for generations.
Those who persistently defend the governments regulatory role on the grounds of food safety fail to understand that they are perpetrators of this narrow minded subversive system of control.
Ken Conrad
Reading this stuff eminating from "offal-icals" makes my brain hurt anyone else got a headache? UTTER MADNESS? And they are serious!!!!
http://www.palestineherald.com/opinion/local_story_172012704.html?keyword=topstory
EPA up to no good again by Wayne Stewart The Palestine Herald
Big ag really does not grow food at all, but commodities for industrial processing. The most notable of course is corn (which is broken into fractions for assemblage into endless "food products" and for ethanol and other industrial merchandise) but also other grains like soy, wheat, rice, etc., beef, chicken, pork, and even vegetables like tomatoes, are often sold as commodities rather than as actual food. One important goal of the slow-food movement is to provide people with actual food (call it "natural" food if you like). Small farms are a far better production model for real food–perhaps the ONLY reasonable production model. It is critically important to consider the definition of "food" when we consider its sources.
Kirsten also said: "… the ground rules should not be the same for both [small, local farms and BizAg]. All I can say to that is AMEN!
I agree with your assessment that the majority of big ag’s output is some sort of a commodity. Still, when the ill-conceived ethanol craze was in full swing it meant food riots in several third-world countries due to the shortage of corn. Although I wouldn’t call corn a nutrient-dense food by any means, it along with rice and wheat is a staple food for many.
I certainly agree that small farms are much more sustainable and desirable in every way – from a pleasant view-shed to domestic security – but all the current policy-making has completely overlooked them, except to spew some homily on how "we must preserve" them. Perhaps small farms shouldn’t be lumped in with commodity producers at all. Maybe we should have our own separate body of regulators that can more accurately assess and advise on the risks and problems of small, human-scale operations.
Yes. And isn’t it a shame (or perhaps a crime) that corn is a "staple" food in so many countries? You get to one of the foundational issues when you point out that "…all the current policy-making has completely overlooked [small, sustainable farms]." That happened, I think, in large part because we allowed the industrial system to redefine what "food" is.
I heard an NPR report recently about lead-tainted candy from Mexico. The reporter and various interviewees repeatedly used the term "food manufacturers." I’m sure the phrase passed by most folks without raising an eyebrow, but the last time I checked, food was grown, not manufactured.
We could do a whole lot of good by taking back the very definition of food. Perhaps the riots resultant of the shift of corn utilization from food products to ethanol should be called "commodity riots." The image of a starving, third-world family rioting over the loss of an industrial commodity might help drive home the reality.