Does the fact that raw milk is a much different product from pasteurized milk mean that it must distributed and sold differently as well?
That question seems to underlie the debate about Organic Pastures Dairy Co. and its use of unpasteurized cream and colostrum from other dairies. Many people seem shocked that Mark McAfee has used products from other organic dairies, even though he has previously discussed it publically in print. He discussed his use of outsider cream on this blog, in connection with the state’s discovery of listeria monocytogenes in a sample, last September.
He also made reference to his use of subcontracted colostrum on his own site last month in a response to a San Jose Mercury News article.
Amanda Rose says in her comment on my previous post that the E.coli 0157:H7 that sickened children in September 2006 might have come from an outside dairy and somehow contaminated the dairy, such as via the bottling equipment. I asked Mark earlier today whether that was a possibility, and he says that, if it did, the California Department of Food and Agriculture would likely have found something in the two weeks of tests conducted at Organic Pastures after the recall that September. “The state did two back-to-back series of 350 tests, over 700 tests” on all the dairy’s equipment and supplies—bulk tanks, bottling equipment, packaging, pipes, tubing, and so forth—and came up empty.
“No one know where those pathogens came from,” he told me. “Some of us believe it was spinach” caused by “another strain” of E.coli 0157:H7 in addition to that confirmed to have sickened more than 200 consumers of packaged California spinach. And, of course, some people believe it was his milk, or possibly milk brought in from elsewhere.
Mark feels there’s no purpose to be served in continually dredging up the matter, since there’s no way of coming up with a conclusive answer at this point. “It’s tilting at windmills,” he added. In the meantime, he has sworn off using any outside products, and says he is within days of adding 150 milking cows to the 250 milkers he now has, to increase his dairy supply. (The photo above shows Organic Pastures’ cows corraled and waiting for their milking turns on an evening last week, when I visited.)
There’s a bigger issue, he argues, and it’s one I’ve been thinking about in recent days based on the concerns expressed here that because Organic Pastures is so large, it is inviting the same kinds of problems that come up at conventional large farms that compromise quality to maximize profits. That issue is whether raw milk can be distributed and sold by dairies varying widely in size from very large, like Mark’s, to very small, like Bob Hayles’.
And, if so, should they all be subject to the same kind of regulations, like the HACCP (hazard analysis and critical control point) risk reduction program being discussed to partly replace AB1735?
These aren’t questions unique to the raw milk business. They come up in all kinds of industries. Small manufacturers, for example, are often exempted by state and federal legislation from certain environmental and safety regulations in the interests of sparing them huge costs, and trusting them to self regulate. As mothership suggests on my previous posting, small California raw milk producers could easily label their products to say they haven’t been inspected.
But even when regulation isn’t an issue, businesses market themselves based on size. Local hardware stores try to convince consumers to avoid the impersonalization of Home Depot outlets.
Mark argues that the market can support a variety of raw milk producers. He feels the only way raw milk can be shown to be effective in building health “is to have it in all the stores…I want to change mainstream America. I’m a participant in mainstream America. This idea of staying under a rock is not what I want to do.”
People who want to buy their milk directly from the farm should do so as well. “You could have three-cow farms, ten-cow farms, 50, 500,” he says.
That vision is very appealing–the kind of freedom many here have been demanding. But it definitely won’t be easy to get to that point. Raw milk is a sensitive product, being sold within a not-very-tolerant food system. And the producers differ widely as well.
But we’re a nation of choices, and why should the situation be different with natural food products. There are many consumers who will only buy their milk from a farmer they know, and advocate that others do the same. And then there are people out there like the Central Valley Mom, who in her comment on my previous post indicated she’s willing to give Mark wide latitude. “I just want my raw milk.”
***
Almost lost in the uproar about Organic Pastures’ use of subcontracted products is the fact that it and Claravale Farm have a court date tomorrow. Mark McAfee had expressed hope the good will growing out of the California Senate raw milk hearing last week might even lead to a delay, to see whether the main issue in the suit, AB1735 and its coliform standard, might be rendered moot. No such luck, so the hearing tomorrow about whether to turn the temporary retraining order granted last month into a preliminary injunction is on.
And they came up empty? There hasn’t been any new evidence brought to light that I am aware of.
No one know where those pathogens came from, he told me. Some of us believe it was spinach caused by another strain of E.coli 0157:H7"
This seems like a strong possibility. Of all those who were sick during that time frame, was every single person tested for the E-coli and for the specific strains? I doubt it. It may have been missed.
If the same strain isn’t found in the poop, dirt, cows or the equipment, it seems highly unlikely that the E-coli came from that dairy.
David, it has been my experience that when producers (whether food or textiles)grow past certain points, quality is kicked to the curb.
Also, contamination would be harder to avoid. I’m not saying it cannot be done, it would just be more difficult to avoid. I don’t begrudge anyone making a profit, it is the quality and safety issues that concern me. (Slaughter houses come to mind)
I don’t understand why raw milk couldn’t be distributed and sold by dairies of different sizes, in stores or from the farm.
Will there be a basic HACCP plan for each specific type and size of dairies? Would these plans be obtainable for all dairies? Would they be cost effective/cost obtainable? Or will they run the little farmer out of business?
If there is a plan, the plan must be obtainable by all for there to be success. There is power in numbers and if there is the backing by the little farmer,together they would have a loud voice. Alienate them and you are destined to fail eventually. The rest of the country appears to follow in California’s footsteps, having success with the production and distrubution of raw dairy only opens the road for other states obtaining their freedom to choose.
Mark, if you are intent on buring a path, make sure you make it big enough for everyone.
I am uncomfortable when "big brother" puts their nose in. No trust from that corner.
BTW, I do participate in mainstream America,I ain’t living under a rock.
There’s been a lot of views to digest these last few weeks.
This is Mark McAfees statement informing his customers he outsourced colostrum in August/September of 2006. If I didnt know the background behind this statement, I would think it meant that the child that became ill from raw colostrum consumed another brand of colostrum, not from OPDC. It would have never dawned on me this statement meant he outsourced his colostrum.
I feel quite disturbed by Mark McAffes dismissive attitude towards outsourcing. Knowing the dangers of pathogens, a customer should be informed when they purchase a product that it was outsourced. A sticker stating this, along with the name of the dairy, would be sufficient. With this information, a customer can make an informed decision at the time of purchase. I believe many would choose to go without rather than consume something produced at a sick dairy.
Informing your customers via a convoluted statement 1 years later is not an acceptable form of communication.
The larger issue of outsourcing is safety. Im going to assume that the equipment used at OPDC for bottling milk and colostrum is the same. I make this assumption because the question regarding this has been ignored.
Mark McAfee made a business decision to bring outsourced cream (or does it come as milk and he only uses the cream) and colostrum to his dairy and ran these products through his equipment to be bottled with the OP label. It only takes as little as 10 organisms of E.coli 0157:H7 to contaminate food, in comparison to one million organisms of salmonella. Im befuddled as to why he would take such a risk. Maybe Mark McAfee really doesnt believe that raw milk carries a risk for pathogens?
Is the equipment cleaned in between bottling different products or is it just rinsed?
Id like to know the exact dates the CDFA ran tests at the dairy on the equipment. The outbreak took place at the beginning of September and the dairy was closed down September 21st. I would assume that the equipment was cleaned in the 3 weeks in-between these two dates. I would hope it is cleaned daily.
I have a deep sadness in my heart for the children who became ill if this is how it happened.
It is frustrating to read on this blog and see the misunderstandings about the basic concepts of DNA fingerprinting. Bacteria are much different than humans (for example, pinning a criminal on a CSI episode), but it should be obvious IMHO to this group, that otherwise seems very well informed and thoughtful: the fingerprint from the 2006 cases tied to Organic Pastures is totally different from the spinach fingerprint. Frankly, the government machine isn’t even organized or motivated enough to cover-up this fact. There is no secret agenda. Reading the reports out of California on both E. coli and Campylobacter, it seems obvious that they found both pathogens in cow feces at the dairy. That should cause some concern and desire to take every precaution possible to keep such feces away from the milk and milking equipment.
Interesting post found on the marler blog:
http://www.marlerblog.com/2008/04/articles/legal-cases/organic-pastures-where-there-is-smoke-there-is-fire
You write that David discussed the use of outsider cream on this blog in the States discovery of Listeria. Yes, He did discuss it, AFTER they Discovered the Listeria. Don’t you think that customers should have known that before???? This is very upsetting to me.
Yes, I agree the dairy is very large by raw milk standards. So there are more opportunities for quality problems. If there were more raw milk dairies in CA we could go somewhere else & take the pressure off O.P.to meet the large demand. Not to mention all the "pets" in other states that need their raw dairy. (It’s a bit odd that even though O.P. ships products all over the country, the supposed "bad milk" only caused illnesses in CA. Hmm. Weird.)
But since there aren’t any other suppliers here in CA, I’ll be picking up 3 1/2 gallons of Organic Pastures "white gold" tomorrow. From mostly grass fed cows on pasture that may or may not be at the actual Organic Pastures dairy.
Isn’t the e-coli found at the dairy totally different from what those kids had?
"Frankly, the government machine isn’t even organized or motivated enough to cover-up this fact. There is no secret agenda."
I don’t recall stating the govt had any agenda, I believe I mentioned on this blog in the past that their processes appeared botched and/or sloppy.
"Reading the reports out of California on both E. coli and Campylobacter, it seems obvious that they found both pathogens in cow feces at the dairy. That should cause some concern and desire to take every precaution possible to keep such feces away from the milk and milking equipment. "
I would expect that any dairy would be concerned about bacteria at their farm and take necessary precautions to protect their products. I’m not sure what you are trying to imply.
As consumers we have many choices. If one is disturbed about a company, you have the choice not to use that company and seek out another.
I wonder why I’ve never heard any out cries about the horrid conditions at the factory dairies? Why aren’t people informed about the conditions there? The crap in the milk that is boiled and bottled, then sold to unsuspecting consumers? As I said, life is full of choices, I don’t buy those dairy products.
I agree Central Valley Mom, it is wierd that only 6 were supposedly ill from the OP milk out of all that was sold that year.
We obviously have a structural problem here. Our agricultural system is one of centralized production, and it is so well ingrained into our economy and cultureits by now built into our landscapethat it appears permanent. We feel like we cannot feed ourselves without it. But I think that is a faulty assumption. It may be true in the short run, but nothing on this earth is permanent. We CAN return to small-scale, local farming, if we would only adopt the view that we want it. We cant have it tomorrowit took a hundred years or more to build our mega-farm system and will probably take that long to dismantle itbut small-scale farming is a far saner alternative over the long term than what we have, and it ought to be our goal. That, of course, is the root message of the sustainable agriculture movement, and it will not be realized by twiddling and adjusting our mega-farms. We need the real thing.
Ironically, we have the real thing, if only in building-block form. The market is there, the farmers are there, even the land is there (though not much of that anymore). They rest now in the background, like amino acids waiting to become proteins. If we would only get out of their way, they will form and develop, without our help. Can we give them a chance to express themselves? Can we give the small-scale farm some air to breath?
Emphatically not while government is controlling farm processes, as Bob Hayles and others have pointed out. Process controlsregulation, direct price-fixing, and indirect motivators that reward or punish certain farmer behaviors (like the ones that currently favor centralized production)will only function to concentrate power, and that leads only to what we already have. We must instead back off, and let nature take its course.
Im not trying to suggest that tiny farms can feed New York City or Los Angeles, but theres a lot of room between the big city and the country farm. Im content to let the tiny farms feed first the rural communities, then the suburbs, and then let people decide for themselves, once they see the result, whether they prefer city life with its trucked in, preserved food (and culture), or a more decentralized geography, with more local food (and culture) connections. I am confident that that sort of change will make small-scale farming, and small-scale living, more attractive, financially and otherwise. Maybe even more so than running a strip mall.
Thats how we rebuild the landscape.
There were no cases tied to Organic pastures, or did I miss something here?
Very well said.
What we need is return to small, local food production, I like your model.
In that vein – why doesn’t Mark and OP finance another small raw dairy, so it can get itself off of the ground and help serve the raw milk market in California, instead of investing in another 150 milking cows?
This way, Mark’s idea of ‘raw milk for everyone’ would be better served, and another family farm would be saved. Money well spent, I’d say.
Or better yet, let Mark do what he wants, and let the small farmers do what they want. If Mark can keep his end product clean at his scale, and people want to buy it, then fine. Likewise for small-scale farms. Family farms don’t need special funding or preferential regulations, or charity of any sort. They need only to be left alone to innovate.
I don’t think that acceding to any level of process regulation is wise, whether thats a government-approved Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Point program, or private funding (which inevitably come with process-control strings attached). Those things may sound good on the surface (HACCP programs sound good only to the tin ear of bureaucracy) but they are in fact little more than a regulatory foot in the barn door.
1. Isn’t the e-coli found at the dairy totally different from what those kids had?
Yes, you are right. If a match had been found on the dairy, end of story (maybe). But, not finding a match doesnt prove it wasnt there in the pastthe state collects samples weeks after the milk the children drank was bottled: a) the strain with that fingerprint could have died off or mutated (very common in E. coli) or b) they may have missed itcows sometimes have E. coli in their feces one day and not the nextI doubt your state people had resources to keep going out and testing every cow, every day until the found the match.
3. I don’t recall stating the govt had any agenda, I believe I mentioned on this blog in the past that their processes appeared botched and/or sloppy.
IMHO, all the states could do a better job communicating information about outbreaks and food safety to the public and the farmers. And, the investigations could be done better with more resources, but these are lacking and it makes government look sloppy sometimes. Even more reason for farmers to "work their rears off" as Bob said earlier to prevent making someone sick.
Finally–Sylvia, not related to your comments, just something I was wondering about. There are other foods with health benefits besides raw milk that are considered higher risk for some individuals (e.g., unpasteurized juices, raw sprouts, raw oysters, raw almonds). Just curious: why dont those products have blogs?
I never suggested that small farmers need charity. I only suggested that, if Mark’s goal is to have raw milk go ‘mainstream’ and to have it available to everyone, one way to do that is to mentor/invest in other farmers who want to enter the raw milk market, but don’t know how to or can’t financially, instead of expanding his own herd to meet the demand. It was merely a suggestion. If he doesn’t want to do that, I don’t care, but it is a viable alternative.
I do believe that people need to reestablish a connection to their food source. The only way to do that is through more and smaller farms. If people want to buy from OP, I don’t care, but then Mark needs to be honest about where his products are coming from. All I can see is, that Mark is dangerously close to following the industrial model of food production. Conventional foods did that long ago. Organics followed suit, and went from small farms to industrial scale farms like Vander Eyk and Aurora Dairies. I just don’t want to see raw milk go the same way – the privilege of farmers with ‘financiers’ and ‘backers’, to the exclusion of the rest of us.
Thanks to the same mind-set that is afraid of raw milk, there are no more raw almonds. They are all being pasteurized now. It irks me because raw almonds are beneficial to the body. Raw sprouts, leafy greens, all going to be going away before too long.
Have you heard about Morgellon’s disease? There is some science now showing that it may come from the virus they are spraying on lunch meats, the kind you buy in the grocery store deli, to kill bacteria.A person suffering from it has multi-colored fibers (that cannot be burned at 1700 degrees) bursting from sores, and the sensation of bugs crawling under the skin. Yup, industrialized agriculture, good for health. I’ll take my chances, thank you very much, with locally grown foods and raw milk from a cow I know.
But in coastal San Diego county, that isn’t a very practical option. OPDC products are in 3 stores within 5 miles of my home (as well as in Whole Foods about 16 miles away). I live just a few miles from the coast, not anywhere near the rural farm areas of the county. There are a few communities just inland from me where livestock is allowed, but I have not been able to come up with any connections for fresh milk.
Getting away from the suburbanized area here is much more difficult compared to other places I have lived, where a 5-10 minute drive could put one on pleasant country roads with little traffic. I doubt I could convince my husband look for another job and to move to have closer access to a dairy farm :-).
So in San Diego county, at least near the coast where most people live, I don’t see a real possibility of a new dairy starting here, raw or conventional, or even smaller producers. Even the CSA programs are facing problems keeping their leased land, despite having to turn people away because membership capacity is full. My CSA just had to move much of their operation inland another 10-15 miles, where the temps are more extreme on both ends, because housing was planned on their leased land. As far as I know, all but one of the conventional dairies in SD county have closed in recent decades (as CAFOs in Riverside and other So Cal counties have grown). People in their 0s can remember when there were lots of dairy farms in areas that now have nearly every inch covered by interstates, shopping malls, sports stadiums, car dealerships and hotels. Land is scare and expensive here (even with the real estate downturn), water is scarce and expensive, and encroaching housing developments don’t like livestock for neighbors, even if the ranches and farms have been there for generations.
Yes, I’ve heard of a few people in the eastern part of the county, which still remains rural and semi-rural (but for how long?), who keep a couple cows and goats and sell the milk to a few customers under the radar. For a variety of reasons I’ve chosen not to go that route.
If someone started a real raw dairy farm in my county, I certainly would consider buying closer to home instead of from OPDC, even if it meant a longer drive for me. But starting and operating a larger dairy with irrigated pasture most of the year (we generally get *NO* rain from March – November or December) would be a huge undertaking and I doubt it will ever happen. The distance out to those areas suitable isn’t so far (varies, but at least 25 and as much as 70 miles away), but with traffic and development patterns what they are here, we’re talking a lot of drive time for the 1-1/2 gallons or so of milk my family of three consumes a week. I estimate it would be a minimum of 45 minutes one way for a 25 mile drive if I avoid peak traffic times, compared to my ten minute drive to the store now (or 20 minute bike ride, which I try to do when I only need a milk and an extra item of two).
It’s hard to do a scientific analysis of the risk factors, but I’ll bet the risk of a car wreck during a weekly milk run is higher than the risk of illness from OPDC milk, even with the somewhat unsettling news of some OPDC product coming from the other sources.
I sometimes buy some goat milk for cheesemaking from the hobby farm 70 miles away, but they deliver that *to me* every other week.
Another choice would be to stop buying milk, period. Given that we’ve done well with OPDC milk for the past two years, I’m reluctant to do that.
A comment on an earlier post had the poster expressing disappointment that, as it turns out, Mark McAffee is actually…OMG…trying to make money! Sacre bleu!
So what?
Farmers have the same obligations as the rest of the public.
I love what I do. I believe in nutrient dense foods. I believe in people having the right to make their own food choices. Being a substiance farmer is something I actually enjoy.
With all of that said, I still do this for money, as I still have bills.
I still have land payments to make.
I still have gas to buy for the truck.
I still have insurance premiums to pay.
I still have the college costs for my son to look forward to.
So does McAffee probably…but he’s to be condemned for "trying to make money"?
Not in my book. The Bible does not say that "money is the root of all evil"…it says the LOVE OF Money is the root of all evil.
Sylvia says,"David, it has been my experience that when producers (whether food or textiles)grow past certain points, quality is kicked to the curb."
I don’t know that I would say "kicked to the curb", but I do believe that, once an operation is large enough for employees to enter the equation, quality is on dangerous ground.
Let’s face it…farming is, to a large part, a labor of love by the farmer and his family. While we do need to make money, it is not about a large income, and from the farm employee’s standpoint the finances are even worse…as are the financial incentives for doing things "right". This leaves quality in danger that possibly demands a closer scrutiny. An employee with no emotional investment, who is simply getting a (small) check weekly, is not going to pay as close attention as is needed in a dairy operation, IMLTHO.
Central Valley Mom says, "But since there aren’t any other suppliers here in CA, I’ll be picking up 3 1/2 gallons of Organic Pastures "white gold" tomorrow. From mostly grass fed cows on pasture that may or may not be at the actual Organic Pastures dairy."
I really don’t want to blast someone who cares enough to post here, but CVM’s attitude will kill raw milk if it becomes widespread. Not caring, not "knowing your farmer", will allow unscrupulous folks into the business just for the almighty dollar…and they will screw it upfor the rest of us, just as unethical folks back in the 20’s and 30’s brought about mandated pasturization in the first place.
Then we hear from Dave Milano…"Our agricultural system is one of centralized production, and it is so well ingrained into our economy and culture…that it appears permanent…We CAN return to small-scale, local farming…it took a hundred years or more to build our mega-farm system and will probably take that long to dismantle it…"
I, for one, don’t want to dismantle it, for two reasons.
First, I want everyone, not just "us", to have the right to make our own nutritional choices, including those folks that would choose a Tyson chicken, a Monsanto ear of corn, or a Dean Foods gallon of milk. If we demand the right to choose nutritional foods, folks that are not like minded also deserve the right to choose for themselves…even if it is a Big Mac and fries, double sized of course.
The second reason I don’t want "big agri" dismantled is I want them there for comparison. I want folks to look next door, to the house with the "health nuts", and see the results, then look on the other side and see the fast food addict…and compare results. It would take time, but it would slowly bring folks to our side.
And finally we have C2…or Darth…who says, "I don’t recall stating the govt had any agenda, I believe I mentioned on this blog in the past that their processes appeared botched and/or sloppy."
Well, if you didn’t say government had an agenda, you should have, because they do.
I know, I know, I know…you are a guvmint agent without an agenda…and you are also an anomily, WAAAY off the scale.
Government, especially the bureauocratic side, DOES indeed have an agenda, one of protecting big agri, big pharma, and big business in general.
If you want evidence, look at Halmark Meats, look at Meryck and Viiox, etc., then look at how quick the USDA, FDA, and state agencies come down on the small fry.
Proof? No. Strong anecdotal evidence? You bet.
BTW Darth…the new Saanens are GREAT…wish I had gotten Saanens earlier.
Bob Hayles
Thornberry Village Homestead
Jasper, GA
706.692.7004
Thornberry Village Homestead…a small goat dairy, owned by God, managed by Bob and Tyler.
C2/Darth
Me- High risk for whom? I suppose it depends on where you get your food from and how it is processed and stored.(This would be Know your farmer and know the product ) I juice my own oranges and other fruits/veggies, eat my own raw spinach/veggies and there is an elder couple that sells their raw almonds at the farmers market that I eat. I also eat raw produce I get at the farmers market. I dont like oysters raw or cooked. My juice is raw as is a lot of the veggies and fruits we eat. Dad is 82 and has eaten this way all his life. He is a big meat and tater eater. He even cooks a lot of his food in bacon fat. He is disgustingly healthy. I am sure there are blogs for any subject you want, just search. I happened to stumble onto Davids blog looking for something else. I also dont think most people know what all the various pasteurization processes entail. Maybe it would discourage them from eating it, maybe not. Many eat fast foods.
Henwhisp, Ive heard about Morgellons disease a while back. It isnt in the news locally. Ive only read about while surfing the net. Last I had read, the govt was alluding it was a psych disorder.
As I said Bob, I dont begrudge anyone making money. My concern is quality and safety, especially as an entity grows.
I stand corrected Bob, you are so right, Government, especially the bureauocratic side, DOES indeed have an agenda, one of protecting big agri, big pharma, and big business in general.
Once you have my Feta, the good side will have picked up a convert, along with getting a double agent inside the dark side’s camp…LOL.
The Saanens are great so far…mischevious but great.
Bob
It’s hard to come to grips with the claim that farmers are "prideful and competitive to the point that it chokes them." My experience, which is admittedly only 5 years and on the Central Coast, has been much different. A number of small farmers have been extremely helpful to us and wonderful neighbors. Large farmers, less so.
Bob,
Thanks for the commentary, as always. (I enjoy listening to a solid curmudgeon, even if it means enduring a rasping now and again.) But speaking about the industrial-ag complex as if it gives people an honest choice is wrong. As you well know, industrial ag is anything but an honest system. It sits on a foundation of tax and other artificial incentives, regulation, cost shifting, revenue shifting, and myriad power brokering to control those factors. If you are an American, it affects you, quite negatively. If you think that’s all right (in the greater sense) then allow it to be. I don’t, and don’t think you do, really.
When I say that I support dismantling, I mean to say that I support dismantling of the government and other power mongering that keeps the industrial agriculture "structure" intact–the system of robbing Peter to pay Cargill. If industrial ag can survive without that, more power to it, and if it does, I’ll eat my (straw) hat and even tell them I’m sorry for doubting.
Maurice,
I appreciate your background and thoughts. But I’m not aware of anyone trying to give a free pass to any farmer, or for that matter any person in any situation. What we are asking for is to let the market decide, in other words, we are asking for freedom. If a farmer is so prideful or angry or stubborn or whatever, that he cannot survive in a free market, let him die a financial death. But do give him a free market in which to prove himself.