The Negotiating on Raw Milk Standards Has Begun

Chasm.jpg

“If you wanna complain….I’m not the complaint department.”

From song, “Complaint Department” by Likki Li

 

Maybe I am the complaint department, since I run this blog. Certainly the complaints keep coming. 


There was Mark McAfee’s comment, that, “During our weekly RAWMI conference call…the subject of this blog came up. It was shared by one of our board members that productive dialogue is not possible when toxic personalities cannibalize the conversation.” 

 

Then there were complaints growing out of his comment, as to whom he was referring to about “toxic personalities.” 

 

There have been several comments made privately to me, in just the last few days, from people who felt insulted by the caustic nature of the debate that sometimes evolves here. 

 

This isn’t a new phenomenon. It rears its head from time to time, sometimes with negative consequences.   I have lost friends over the tenor of my posts and the discussion here. I have seen people I highly respect become so frustrated with this blog that they have left in a huff. I have seen public health professionals participate for a time, and then throw up their hands in disbelief at the tone of the back-and-forth.

 

What’s going on? Certainly I have responsibility,, since I provoke. I poke fun at the authorities. I was guilty early on of personalizing some of my attacks at people in positions of power. I found that some of those created more negativity than positive results, and gradually, I have avoided personalizing my criticism. Even that little speaking skit I did recently, I intentionally avoided assuming the name of a real bureaucrat. 

 

But beyond that, I think that raw milk and food rights are by their nature highly volatile political issues, which generate volatile reactions in people. That’s not just here. It’s difficult to have any kind of rational discussion about raw milk, even among supporters. I’ve seen the phenomenon on other web sites, when they publish an article of some kind about raw milk, and then there are 200 comments lambasting the author and each other.

 

Part of what makes raw milk so emotional, in my view, is that milk is our first food, and remains an important food through much of childhood. We have primal feelings about milk. 

 

Another part has to do with the fact that our government has long tried to prevent access to raw milk, and continues to do so, even  as it has become ever more popular and desired. If you look even casually at world history, you quickly realize that food riots and food shortages have been the sparks for huge political upheaval. Politically, it’s almost never a good idea to be messing with people’s food. 

 

Before I go on, I want to say (again) that none of the controversy about raw milk and food rights is an excuse for personal attacks. It is possible to debate the issues, without questioning the personal motives or sincerity of others. 

 

Back to complaints…. I guess it wasn’t a big surprise when the matter of this blog’s tone came up in that podcast interview I finally did last week (Jan. 29) with the two professors I discussed a few weeks back, Don Schaffner of Rutgers University and Ben Chapman of North Carolina State.  They, too, told me they don’t like the blog’s tone. They told me they thought my previous post about them was insensitive, and inaccurately represented some of their views. They thought that a number of comments from readers as well represented a “negative tone and hyperbole.”

 

Why bring all this business about debate and tone up now? Because it seems as if we may be at an important new phase in the long war over raw milk: We may well be in early negotiations about raw milk safety standards—in effect, official acceptance of raw milk and a raw milk marketplace. All the state proposals to broaden raw milk availability,  the growing public support for those proposals, together with the assemblage of university and regulatory people at the Raw Milk Institute (RAWMI) that Mark McAfee describes, are part of an important sorting out. More on that later….

 

There are most certainly huge obstacles to overcome—the corporate dairy producers, together with their puppets at the FDA, haven’t given up by a long shot. Nor has much of the regulatory and health community had a change of heart. But in terms of the debate, there has actually been progress over the last few years, and the coming together of various constituencies at RAWMI is the clearest indication. 

 

All this has taken a long time to jell for good reason. I got more of a sense of the chasm that  exists between the pro and anti-raw-milk camps during that podcast last week with the two representatives of the academic community. I felt at times like I was in the Twilight Zone, in a land of double talk, where we were literally speaking different languages. And believe me, we were all trying very hard to be polite (and I believe for the most part, we were polite). 

 

First, I tried to pin the two professors down on what they think about legalizing raw milk availability, and I just couldn’t do it. They talked like academics, about “a continuum,” “risk management.” I believe Schaffner even said he was “a libertarian on raw milk,” presumably in favor on some theoretical level. 

 

I pursued the matter: Were there any state situations allowing raw milk that they liked, that might serve as a model for states like their own, New Jersey and North Carolina, that prohibit its sale? Nope. Nothing doing. No way they were going to be caught endorsing raw milk in any kind of specific substantive way. 

 

I only lost it once, when they spoke about that recent CDC-sponsored Minnesota study being “good science.” (They challenged me on whether the study was truly CDC-sponsored, as I have repeatedly referred to it; it turns out the language at the end of the study says the study was financed “in part through cooperative agreements” with the CDC–it doesn’t say where any other “part” of the financing came from, and the study is posted on the CDC web site. Don’t think I was inaccurate on that one.)

 

I think they were insulted when I started laughing hysterically at their suggestion that the Minnesota study was started as a serious scientific endeavor designed to learn more about raw milk, and not to slam it. Really?  Just important new knowledge for knowledge’s sake. Uh-huh. 

 

They did kind of get me when I protested that I had been to Minnesota a number of times, met many dozens of raw milk drinkers, and never met anyone who spoke about getting sick, or knew anyone who became ill. Ah, but I couldn’t possibly know all the many thousands of raw milk drinkers, they argued. Correct, I couldn’t. 

 

From there, we moved on to the question of whether the feds really have it in for raw milk. They said, quite sincerely, that they didn’t think so. As if food club members and farmers who have been hit by raids are all paranoid. 

 

I don’t want to suggest the discussion was nonproductive. Simply viewing the chasm so starkly was informative, at least for me. There was even an important point of agreement, I’d say: that pushing the U.S. toward more of a black-market system is not desirable. That producing the safest possible raw milk is desirable. 

 

All of which brings me back to the matter of negotiations toward broader acceptance of raw milk, as illustrated by the activity at RAWMI.  Mark McAfee, the founder of RAWMI (and owner of Organic Pastures Dairy Co.), said RAWMI “has been approached by the best researchers, the best universities, and a consortium of regulators to…navigate a better future for raw milk.” 

 

Miguel astutely pointed out that “producers and consumers will have to produce and consume a product that is designed by universities, government agencies, researchers and regulators, giving those groups tremendous power…” What he was suggesting is that the legitimization of raw milk could well have important repercussions, beginning with involvement by extension services that Shawna Barr referred to. 


As I said, we are at the early stages of this negotiation process. The simple fact that negotiations seem to have begun is a huge development. It’s just important to appreciate that the chasm between the public health professionals and those of us who feel we should make the decisions about the foods we ingest is quite wide. That begins to explain why so much frustration bubbles up here on this blog, and why the complaints keep coming. 

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166 Comments on "The Negotiating on Raw Milk Standards Has Begun"


miguel
February 7, 2014

If these negotiations are going to have any credibility they should first answer a few questions about the role of bacteria in raw milk associated illness. The symptoms indicate that the body is trying to eliminate something.Why does the investigation assume that the problem is caused by bacteria? Why not test for heavy metals,antibiotics,xenotoxins commonly found in water,prescribed drugs,etc.? Does the presence of a microbe automatically prove that it was the cause of the illness? Could it be possible that some bacteria are helping to clean up toxic accumulations in our bodies and if so aren’t they actually part of the cure rather than the cause of the illness?

D. Smith
February 7, 2014

If the “experts” would legalize raw milk, they wouldn’t push consumers towards a black market situation, but that is exactly what they’re doing – and it’s what they intend to keep doing. All of this huckumpuckey is leading nowhere because you cannot please organizations like the CDC or the FDA. Not possible because they keep massaging the numbers to fit their skewed ideals. They have no cogent argument.

If raw milk was legalized in all regards, it would become a free-market item and all of these pesky details would work themselves out. Raw milk, for all the scientific barking, is a very safe product without any intervention. Much safer than a lot of other food items on the market today.

Do I expect it to be legalized? Never. That would mean rolling over on their own data and the FDA, USDA, CDC yada yada are never going to stand for that. The FDA is having a heyday watching producers on the RAWMI type programs turn themselves into veritable pretzels trying to please them – and then they change something and the whole mess has to start all over again. Don’t think they aren’t enjoying all of this. We will never see freedom in raw milk if we keep bowing and scraping and trying to please an entity who has no intention of cooperating.

I know I’ll catch flack for this, but it’s how I feel.

mfpellicano
February 7, 2014

David, Yes, the tenor of this blog does get particularly nasty at times, but I have never let that bother me personally because even those posts can give a reader insight and perspective. I’m not a farmer, just a farmer’s helper (milk-maid), so I am personally aware of sanitation and hygiene in the milking process/caring for the dairy cow, on a farm with less than 3 cows (in production). It is a substantive experience to be a part of
the milking process and experience the hard work and care it takes to make this sacred food available to our members. So, when I was learning how to do this so that I could relieve my farmer a couple times a week, I couldn’t help remembering a couple of video’s I saw on u-tube regarding this very chore. Both were not in the U.S., but both were obviously not concerned with the “clean” process like we are here. One was an old man fetching a milk goat from what looked like a junk yard for a mother and young boy. Not a blade of green grass in sight. It was for medicinal reasons that the mother brought her boy to get milk straight from the teat! Another video was in an Asian country (China?) and a man was distributing fresh milk to city dwellers from his van that he just drove in from the country! Now, I know we don’t know the results of these video’s like the professor’s said you didn’t know how everyone faired on the raw milk in Minnesota, but I do think if “thousands” started getting sick and dying from these distributions/practices news of it would spread around the world! In fact, our whole world population wouldn’t be what it is today if this sacred food was as dangerous as the authorities say it is…but having had that thought I also realize that there has never been a more dangerous time to produce any kind of food “organically” because of the toxic load of pollution that we are experience in this day and age! Yes, it is hard to produce milk, veggies, meat, eggs, ect., because we face such hazardous toxic environmental conditions like never before in human recorded history. So, if we are on the cusp of negotiation acceptable production and distribution then we had better acknowledge the necessity of doing it in as healthy environment as possible, not just the sanitized milk parlor! Water, soil, land use adjacent to production, ect., and much, much more will have to be taken into consideration. We definitely must stop agricultural pollutions of CAFO’s so that our water and land can become cleaner…and the use of pesticides, herbicides, ect. To me, this isn’t “rocket science,” we do KNOW how to do this…but we can’t force these clean practices in our politically environment of today…just look at the newest farm bill that was passed. I pray the USA consumer will soon demand cleaner food…and ban these horrible practices that are slowly but surely killing our collective health not to mention our environmental health.
JM “non-scientific” HO. Marietta Pellicano

rawmilkmike
February 7, 2014

Paragraph 1. Pasteurized
RAWMI thinks these conversations are unproductive when they don’t go their way.

rawmilkmike
February 7, 2014

Milk isn’t just the food of our childhood. It’s the food of our children.

rawmilkmike
February 7, 2014

hyperbole: language that describes something as better or worse than it really is
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hyperbole

rawmilkmike
February 7, 2014

David, can you really call it a “negotiation” if consumers and farmers are not involved?

rawmilkmike
February 7, 2014

David your description of the “chasm” was excellent. Can you think of any chasm this size that has ever been bridged in the past?

Which is the “black-market system” Pasteurized milk that breaks many laws or raw milk which breaks none?
…
David, Raw milk is already a low risk food.
“Raw milk myths and evidence by Nadine Ijaz pdf”
http://www.bccdc.ca/NR/rdonlyres/00E8757C-99E4-4414-8C54-2C92BB776567/0/RevisedPresentationJuly8RawmilkmythsandevidenceNadineIjaz_PROTECTED.pdf
…
David, who speaks for the raw milk consumer?
…
“Miguel astutely pointed out that “producers and consumers will have to produce and consume a product that is designed by universities, government agencies, researchers and regulators” In other words let them eat cake.

rawmilkmike
February 7, 2014

Thank you miguel.

tommculhane
February 7, 2014

Hey all, I used to post here last year, and when I returned I noticed all my posts have been removed from the archives. (there was some pretty important info in there btw..). The webmaster said it all must have got erased when platfoms were switched. I’m not a computer guy, but I do remember from Computers101 that the first thing you learn is to back up files. If David wants to have archives, he really needs to take a look at what is going on.

Anyway I no longer post here because, in my view, the center of gravity in this forum is just way way to far from Reality. For example, David, Mark and a lot of others advocate “testing” of milk, yet do they test any of the other foods they consume? This double standard is very harmful to the raw milk community, it reinforces government propaganda about alledged risk of consuming the healthiest food their is, and makes it easier for the bad guys to target small farmers… (If people want to test there food, I have no problem with that, if they are consistent across the board. Of course, as soil scientist miguel has repeatedly stated in this forum, if you are going to test milk, first you need to figure out what you are going to test if for.)

I also was very offended by the treatment raw milk advocate Aajonus got, by David. David called him a liar, saying something to the effect, “repeating your false ideas isn’t somehow going to make them true…”

I never saw David present any evidence that Aajonus was making any false claims, and Aajonus had evidence to back up his statements, such as testimony from former employees claiming food was indeed being sold as organic that wasn’t…

A lot of David’s reporting was good (and I like him), that’s why I used to post here, but when someone who got it right about raw milk, Aajonus, is dismissed as an “eccentric”, and “new leaders” have emerged (with a very watered down understanding of raw milk), well it’s not my scene. Since I have you all on the line though, thought I would just summarize my own research findings about the raw milk situation:

Raw dairy is an ancient superfood, used by some of the healthiest, longest lived peoples. The research of Weston Price and also Sir Robert McCarrison is a good place to acquaint yourself with these basic facts. And no their kids didn’t develop HUS, no their noses didn’t fall off, no their bodies weren’t ravaged by listeria… raw milk societies were super healthy.

Once dairy is pasteurized, it becomes a totally different substance. My own research from first hand experience and talking to drinkers and reading testimonies, convinces me that you no longer absorb the calcium when milk is pasteurized. This is the real reason that there is epidemic levels of calcium deficiency in this country, when so much dairy is consumed.

And this is the real reason that pasteurization is forced on us. I posted plenty of evidence to help people who are in denial about the fact that the government, major media, etc., are controlled by organized crime. If you can’t grasp this basic fact, you are missing the whole point of why there is a “debate” about raw milk. It is precisely because of its health benefits that raw milk is systematically slandered, in microbiology textbooks, by govt agencies, by the media cartel, etc. The biggest business today is SICKNESS aka “Healthcare”. Bigger than oil, autos, chemicals…

We have epidemic levels of disease in this country, due to severe mineral deficiency (along with of course other establishment created problems). Over 95 percent of Americans suffer from tooth decay, which dentist Weston Price’s research shows, is due to severe calcium deficiency. Coming from a different directions, modern scientist Robert Barefoot says 95 percent of Americans have SEVERE calcium deficiency, which sets the stage for all kinds of illness, cancers, diabetes, ms, …

Endlessly “treating” disease generates mega billions for the pharmaceutical cartel, and other facets of the medical industry… This is the real reason raw dairy is demonized.

There is no reason for thinking people to take seriously any claims made by the government, the major media, establishment academia… re raw milk. The establishment has many tools in their disinformation toolbox, from using actor agents, faking data, drawing false conclusions, suppresssing real evidence, etc. etc. I tried to help the cause by repeatedly posting info on this in this blog, it looks like it was mainly ignored (and now erased). In this very blog, professors have testified they risk being fired or having grant money cut off if they publically present pro raw milk evidence. In this very blog farmers have told how they were fined 8000 dollars for posting customer testimonies of asthma healing from raw milk… yet most people in this blog repeatedly talk about the government as if it is some kind of legitimate entity that we should engage in debate and dialogue???

Thankfully, there are a few people in here who basically understand the truth about raw milk, such as raw milk MIke, Ken, D Smith and some others, that raw milk doesn’t create disease, it prevents disease. So I hope you guys stick to your guns and don’t fall for the false science, fake disease outbreaks, govt agents, etc.

Myself, I’ve been directing my energies toward more pleasing subjects, namely the recovery of ancient musical tunings and all the health benefits you get from playing music in tune with Nature (as opposed to “modern” “equal temperament” tuning, which is a type of mathematical hoax). I’m also pushing on with growing my own food…

My message to all seekers who come here sincerely trying to understand the “debate”. Go out in the real world and talk directly to lifelong raw milk drinkers, and check out the earlier evidence I cited of cultures that used it. The picture should come into focus for you. Good luck. Tom

D. Smith
February 7, 2014

@ Tomm: Hey, you must have ESP! I was just thinking about you this morning when I came across this book, and wondering if you were still trying to grow your own wheat, and/or other grains. It’s written by the same guy (Gene Logsdon) who wrote Holy Shit: Managing Manure to Save Mankind (which is now a college textbook, I understand). Thought you might enjoy looking it over.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5154269-small-scale-grain-raising

February 7, 2014

The good old USA is a system of laws. That is the founders intent. That is how our nation has also evolved and also how may of the strongest corporations have bought and dominated the power.

However….these laws came change, if people show up, stand up, and speak up!!

Corpotations show-up better than any one person that I know. If we intend on winning back America and our food…then we had better start becoming part of the conversation and showing up standing up and speaking up. If that means as a group that is just fine…if that means by dollar voting that works fine also. One thing that is empty and powerless is bitching and moaning in complete madness and with wild conspiracies swimming in our heads…from afar. This change happens up close and personal with smart engaged people.

Engagement works. PhD’s, researchers and the regulators are paid to engage and that is why they get a seat at the table. As producers and consumers we can also chose to engage. RAWMI created its own opportunity and now sits at a table that it helped build!!!

When sitting at the big raw milk table it is required that you speak the language. If you speak “raw-milk-weirdness or conspiracy jiberish”…the others at the table of raw milk peace and progress will not serve you any dinner and look at your very funny if they regard you as present at all !!!

This is a political and educational process. This process undoes 100 years of industrial investment…and pushes perhaps one of the most profound admissions that we are forcing to be made by huge establishments…pasteurized milk is not settled science…. it has been demonstrated to be a failed science and is a nutritional mismatch for the human biome.

As we all speak our minds, be aware that others are reading and making notes about our intellect or madness. Lets be unified and somewhat in-synch.

miguel
February 7, 2014

Mark,
“It is required that you speak “the” language”. Are you talking about the language of the natural world?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akluoEByGTw

Ora Moose
February 8, 2014

“What’s going on? Certainly I play an important role, since I provoke. I poke fun at the authorities. I was guilty early on of personalizing some of my attacks at people in positions of power. I found that some of those created more negativity than positive results.”

David, please do not allow yourself to think that you are somehow responsible for the “sometimes negative tone.” Regarding complaints, if didn’t have any you’d be complaining and turning soft we don’t want that.

“prevent access to”

Those should be the key words to any regulatory food discussion, requiring proof. Huge Developments, I saw them back up the Frustration Bubbles way back never

rawmilkmike
February 8, 2014

Thank you tommculhane. You are a breath of fresh air.

A lot of David’s reporting is good (and I like him), that’s why I post here. I hope David can repair that technical glitch.

Sharon Palmer was a criminal by David’s own description and Mark got caught on youtube turning in James Stewart.

If you are going to test milk, first you need to figure out what you are going to test if for.

The treatment raw milk advocate Aajonus got, by David was strange to say the least.

Homogenization is up to 14,000 psi now.

The pharmaceutical cartel absorbs $4 trillion a year in the US alone.

Using actor agents like at Sandy Hook Elementary.

Your raw milk summery was perfect.

Ora Moose
February 8, 2014

Tom, great to see you back and saddened that you’ve stepped away for so long, and by commentary status update so true.

ancient musical tunings, I can’t find much on you tube, do you have stuff maybe even your own that you’d care to share?

rawmilkmike
February 8, 2014

Right on the money D.

rawmilkmike
February 8, 2014

mfpellicano, anyone switching from pasteurized milk to raw milk knows in a matter of days that the state is wrong when they suggest raw milk has no health benefits. Within a few months they know the state is wrong about it’s risked. Because the average American gets diarrhea 3 times a year and raw milk consumers don’t. And don’t forget raw milk has already been proven a low risk food.
…
“Raw milk myths and evidence by Nadine Ijaz pdf”
http://www.bccdc.ca/NR/rdonlyres/00E8757C-99E4-4414-8C54-2C92BB776567/0/RevisedPresentationJuly8RawmilkmythsandevidenceNadineIjaz_PROTECTED.pdf

February 8, 2014

Miguel,

You lost me on that video. The indian in the video would probably do well on a very slow reservation in a mud hut…or tee pee. His language is slow, confusing and his understanding of modern food safety progress was mediated by way to much Peyote peace pipe. If he sat at the table….it would be a joke and you know it. No others would sit at the able! That is the problem arround here. Serious science and modern engagement is nearly a waste of time. Staring at stars and eating raw meat is not the way to any meaningful raw milk access or market change in America.

Clear concise intellegent conversation with real data and raw milk markets that show real growth and a real story of no sick people and a whole lot of happy healthy people is the theme of progress.

That is not the language I am referring too.

Mary McGonigle-Martin
February 8, 2014

Marrietta, can you name all the pathogens that can find their way into raw milk and the illnesses they can cause?

Shelly-D.
February 8, 2014

“I pursued the matter: Were there any state situations allowing raw milk that they liked, that might serve as a model for states like their own, New Jersey and North Carolina, that prohibit its sale? Nope. Nothing doing. ”

We know what these two gentlemen want. They, and the rest of their profession want what their colleagues got implemented up in British Columbia: Raw milk is defined as a health hazard. You are eligible for a $3,000,000 fine or 3 years in jail for “causing a health hazard.”

Here are the laws:

“The following are prescribed as health hazards: (a) milk for human consumption that has not been pasteurized at a licensed dairy plant in accordance with the Milk Industry Act” (Health Hazards Regulation (B.C. Reg. 216/2011), Section 2a)

“A person must not willingly cause a health hazard, or act in a manner that the person knows, or ought to know, will cause a health hazard.” (Public Health Act, Section 15)
“A person who contravenes either of the following commits an offence: (a) section 15 [causes a health hazard];” (Public Health Act, Section 99(3a))
“(1) In addition to a penalty imposed under section 107 [alternative penalties], a person who commits an offence listed in … (c) section 99(3) is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $3,000,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 36 months, or to both.” (Public Health Act, Section 108(1c)]” (from http://rawmilkconsumer.ca/how-raw-milk-is-criminalized-in-b-c)

People, wake up. This is your future.

Shelly-D.
February 8, 2014

When we hear about these “outbreaks,” are some of them maybe due to some consumers not being careful about cross-contamination (let’s say, with uncooked chicken) in their kitchens? What if the chickens came from the same farm as the milk – the same bugs would be there as are at the farm, but it was the chicken that caused the illness, not the milk. Or, when you went to the farm, you were sloppy and let your dog out to run (please do not let your dogs out on other people’s farms) and your dog then ate or stepped in something it shouldn’t have, brought something nasty home, and then your kids played with the dog. It wasn’t the milk, but many of these “outbreaks” will be blamed on the milk anyway, because the inspector will only ask you if you or your family had consumed raw milk.

rawmilkmike
February 8, 2014

Mary, do you know the minimum infectious dose for any of your so called pathogens when and if consumed in raw milk.

rawmilkmike
February 8, 2014

Shelly, BC only has 5 health hazards, sounds like the place to live. Have there been any convictions yet?

rawmilkmike
February 8, 2014

Shelly, even though chicken is convicted with the same ridiculous epidemiological evidence as raw milk, I was about to agree with you until you said “and your dog then ate or stepped in something it shouldn’t have, and brought something nasty home”. Would you really buy raw milk from a place you consider nasty? I thought you were going to say that maybe your dog left something nasty on the farm. Because this is the very reason testing the farm for pathogens is so silly in the case of a cow share where the consumers themselves are all over the farm. Of course they will all have the same bacteria. That doesn’t prove who contaminated who.

rawmilkmike
February 8, 2014

Have you ever asked yourself who all this propaganda is meant for? Is it meant for us, in the hope that we will just shut up and go away, is it meant to convince themselves or is it a legal precedent they’re looking for?

miguel
February 8, 2014

Progress? Real data ? Where do we find real data? Is slow a problem? Being in a hurry without understanding where we are going isn’t working very well. What Russel Means is talking about is a paradigm shift. You are right,a little peyote might give you a peek at the paradigm he is talking about. I agree that he would not be taken seriously at “the table”. That is the problem.The rest of those people are not likely to want to listen to what he is saying. Maybe the problem is a lack of respect for the natural world. Maybe “serious science” is about replacing the natural world with a better design rather than seeking to understand it and become a part of it.I don’t understand the language you speak. What do you mean by” modern engagement”? Is the purpose of negotiations to reinforce acceptance of the old paradigm? The old paradigm ,we could call it “pasteurization”, has obviously failed to make us healthy and happy. The new paradigm is recognizing that all creatures( big and small) depend on each other and need to respect each other.

rawmilkmike
February 8, 2014

For any working stiffs interested in buying fresh organic Jersey milk strait from the cow, here is a list of:

Things we can agree to on a hand shake:

1. I will never drink it without boiling it first.
2. If I were to drink it, it would only be for the taste.
3. I will never give it to my children or anyone else.
4. I will never recommend it to anyone.
5. I am buying it for bathing.
6. I am buying it for cat-food.
7. I am buying it to reduce my carbon foot print.
8. I want to buy local.
9. I like driving out to the country every Saturday.
10. The farmers are so friendly.
11. My kids love the cows.

Things we can agree to in writing:

1. If I were to drink it, it would only be for the taste.
2. I am buying it to reduce my carbon foot print.
3. I want to buy local.
4. I like driving out to the country every Saturday.
5. The farmers are so friendly.
6. My kids love the cows.

Things we can never say or agree to if we want to buy raw milk:

1. That it could contain harmful pathogens.
2. That it could cause illness.
3. That it could cause HUS.
4. That it could cause death.
5. That it has health benefits.
6. That it cured or will cure illness.

Any other suggestions?

D. Smith
February 8, 2014

@ Miguel: It’s obvious that Mark doesn’t know much about history. A slow Indian?? Oh geez.

Here’s a post I did about Russell Means on my forum a few years ago. Maybe this will help clear up a few things. He had his share of trouble, no doubt about it. Because he was an out-of-the-box sort of guy. But he understood life. Much more than most people do today. Sad that he’s dismissed as a “slow Indian”. He was no such thing. I knew him because he was a good friend of a man I used to work for so I saw him often. The man I worked for is no weenie, either. And, believe it or not, he was Jewish and understood Means’ ideals and messages. A very unlikely pair – an Indian rebel and a State Senator.

http://thepolkadotapron.freeforums.org/post546.html#p546

tommculhane
February 8, 2014

Thanks for the book, D Smith. I planted 9 ancient wheat varieties this fall, none sprouted… I posted this in Russ’ blog. it’s a riddle, but I’ll work it out. Wheat (and raw dairy) were the main foods in the diet of the northern Indians, which medical doctor Robert McCarisson called “the healthiest, best looking people on the planet”, back in the 1930s, when real world evidence was easier to come by for “other” cultures. Of course wheat was different then, thus my planting older varieties.

Of course dairy was raw then too. Interestingly, these people didn’t have any problem with “pathogens” finding their way into the milk. The real world raw milk drinkers I’ve interviewed don’t have a problem with this either. As pointed out by miguel, Aajonus and other evidence, these “pathogens’ typically already live in our bodies, and they proliferate when the person has a sick system, due to toxins such as pesticides, antibiotics, mineral deficiency causing acidic digestive tracts, lack of microbe diversity in the digestive tract, etc.

So as usual, the establishment makes people sick, then blames it on the wrong thing. I personally welcome “pathogens” in my milk, exposure to the microbes that live in our environment keeps our immune systems strong, and leads to robust diversity of microbiota. Wild animals don’t follow govt disinformation guidelines to hide from microbes. Everyone is touching and licking everyone, leading to strong immune systems and good health.

I do employ my own milk “testing” system though, it’s called sipping the milk first to see how it tastes. If milk or other food tasted rancid to me, I wouldn’t eat it. That’s never happened with the raw milk I drink though. I don’t use a refrigerator, so older milk turns sour and into curds and whey, still very edible, and yet more evidence that there is a real science to the Universe. Milk is quite an amazing technology, cultured “from the factory” to keep it edible. So I guess I’ll keep taking my chances with the approach of the Hunzas and Georgians… that lived into their hundreds in good health. As I’ve said before, it is truthful to say there is no risk to raw milk, because the risk is less than zero. In other words, if a large segment of the population were to begin drinking raw milk right now, there would be a huge DECREASE in disease among them, much less cancer, diabetes, ms, asthma, osteoporosis, arthritis, etc.

But of course, this is the real reason the establishment demonizes raw milk. Btw I feel sorry for random event theorists like Mark, where everything is an amazing coincidence, gee all the major “news” stations and papers all forget to tell the real news in the same way, lie in the same way, day after day, year after year… hey have they found those weapons of mass destruction in Iraq yet, that they used to start yet another war to tighten their grip on global oil? Not yet? Don’t worry Mark, they’ll turn up sooner or later, the govt would never lie. Why that would be conspiracy. Organized evil behind the scenes. Preposterous!

Raw Milk MIke, you obviously understand the truth about raw milk, so hang in there.

Speaking of that author that wrote Holy Shit, Managing Manure … , I wanted to build a simple cabin on my land using wood from a home they are demolishing nearby, but the county wouldn’t let me, had to be 750 sq ft minimum… plus they wouldn’t go for me using a simple composting toilet system, would force me to use septic (6 grand), where all the nutrients go into a vat in the ground instead of recycling back into the soil… so that house went into a landfill, and I’m renting in town at the moment, with the humaure getting flushed to who knows where.

Hey David , hope all is well.

Ora, I opened a youtube account under Tom M Culhane to make that corn harvest video for this forum last year, and then have used that account to post some music videos. The problem is, while I have recovered the ancient musical tunings, using simple math, I am not really a musician, so I have to learn how to play to get this out there. So check out my youtube account in like 3 months and I might have some nice music on there. I just got this free music program called Audacity, that lets you layer tracks very easily, so you can play a guitar piece, then sing, then sing an second voice, then put in some drumming… perfect for the one man band. (“it’s tough not having friends”, as a guy I knew used to say)

The videos I have posted there so far are borderline comedy because I can barely play, plus most of them I’m using a guitar I designed that plays 18 notes per octave, and would be hard even for a real musician to play… but I recently designed a six string fretless baritone guitar that I’m learning to play, and hope to get a keyboard soon… so like a say maybe 3 months from now look at that youtube channel.

Ora Moose
February 8, 2014

D, that was very nice post, I think you were lucky to have personally known him. It may be just a fantasy, but if I could go back in time and live anywhere in the world at a given time, I would choose North America before the white man destroyed the established Indian way of life. Give me strong values, traditions and respect for the Earth and what nature provides, I can do without convenient toxic foods and people.

And Mama, the Milk song is safe though it may not be your cup of tea pardon the pun.

Ora Moose
February 8, 2014

Thanks Tom, I’m very interested and will keep an eye out for your new music videos. Btw, we’ve been mixing in some Einkorn wheat purchased locally when we bake bread at home, it’s slightly nutty (you are what you eat) and delicious never mind healthier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einkorn_wheat

Another btw, Mama that post of mine you were offended by was not pigs, it was pygmies which are human. But speaking of pigs, another update:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwWScKG0d20&feature=youtu.be

Ora Moose
February 8, 2014

D, here’s an article that pretty well sums up my interpretation of the words dignity and integrity:

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2014/02/05-2

Shelly-D.
February 8, 2014

Alice Jongerden (“Home on the Range”) was convicted. So was Gordon here. Other agisters have been threatened with serious consequences if they didn’t stop, and some have stopped because they saw what happens if you don’t.

Bryan - oz4caster
February 8, 2014

Keep up the good work David. It’s not easy trying to bridge the wide gap between raw milk opponents and supporters. And it’s also very difficult to bring together the diverse views of raw milk supporters in order to increase our power by providing a more united effort. I have met and talked to regulators, farmers, consumers, and have had the pleasure to meet some of my raw milk heroes including Mark McAfee, Michael Schmidt, Ted Beals, and Sally Fallon Morell. So I am well aware of the complexity of all the issues and perspectives. It’s a tough challenge and we need more people like you to help in achieving progress.

My personal view is that in our overly regulated society, it is inevitable that if the sale of raw milk is to be legalized it will have to come under regulation. If we are forced to have regulations, my preference is that they should be tiered with more stringent regulations applying to the largest dairies, less stringent regulations to medium sized dairies, and little or no regulation of very small dairies. Where to draw the line on dairy size? Maybe over 100 cows – large, 11 to 100 – medium, and 10 or less – small. Any regulations should be designed to optimize milk safety at reasonable cost (easier said than done I realize). Any testing of raw milk should in all fairness be required at the same level for pasteurized milk (which has sickened many more people than raw milk). As a consumer, I would personally be quite happy with allowing direct sale of raw milk from farm to consumer at farmers markets or drop locations with little regulation. If people want regulated milk, they can buy it in grocery stores.

D. Smith
February 8, 2014

@ Ora: I agree – I read that just a few days ago. Most of the people in this area are not happy about the prospect of this pipeline because it will tear up the land. Regardless of what we are told, the land is never the same after that. They’ve already had spills all over creation which doesn’t make the prospect of this any more attractive to the people who live in this region, I can tell you!

This is OT, but you may be interested in the Leatherstocking series, if you haven’t already read them as a child. I ordered one LARGE book (bigger than both of my medical dictionaries and assorted other surgical word books, etc.) with all five of James Fenimore Cooper’s major stories in one volume, but I did a search and couldn’t find the same book anywhere. This link is close, but you’ll get the idea. http://www.amazon.com/The-Leatherstocking-Tales-Library-America/dp/1598531549/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_2

You can also order the books individually, of course. My favorite was The Pioneer, but The Deerslayer was good, too, and of course The Last of the Mohicans is a grand story by itself. I often wonder what these people would have had to say about pasteurized milk products. :)

You may also enjoy the book called Trails Plowed Under by Charles M. Russell. It is fantastic reading as well as it has several pen & ink drawings of some of his most famous works, which were later done in oil. Can’t say enough good things about the common sense of the good ol’ cowboys. http://www.amazon.com/Trails-Plowed-Under-Stories-West/dp/0803289618/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1391891477&sr=1-1&keywords=trails+plowed+under+charlie+russell

Ora Moose
February 8, 2014

Here’s a radical idea, that probably has little or no merit and will be shot down in no time. ” It’s not easy trying to bridge the wide gap between raw milk opponents and supporters.”

So would anyone trying to bridge that gap go for half and half? As in, raw milk mixed with pasteurized in equal pooportions, not that the purist amongst us would ever go for that but scientifically and politically speaking could it be possible to have a product that is semi safe or semi dangerous? Just wondering

D. Smith
February 8, 2014

That would be almost the same thing as vat pasteurized milk, which is acceptable but not raw. Some of it is even homogenized so you still have to be very careful when purchasing. Vat pasteurized is available in health food stores sometimes, but a lot of the stores where I live have simply quit carrying it because people don’t want it. If they can’t get raw milk from the farm or a drop-off point, they do without. PERIOD. I don’t object to vat pasteurized if it’s not homogenized. But it’s still not the same goodness as raw milk.

D. Smith
February 8, 2014

@ Bryan: I agree with everything you say, except that the regulations are what’s strangling the raw milk industry where I live. They’ve made it so difficult for the dairy people to follow the new regulations, no matter what size operation. So, our only local raw milk dairy went out of business in December (another coincidence with all the other “dairy stuff” that went on during the month of December 2013?). No coincidence at all, very well planned timing from the people making these rules. I think David wrote articles about some of the other things, such as the AAP statement and a couple of other well-timed blastings.

I agree though that if folks want regulated milk we can buy it at a supermarket.

dschaffner
February 8, 2014

Rawmilkmike, The term “minimum infectious dose” is not in line with modern quantitative microbial risk assessment thinking. For many pathogens like _Salmonella_ and pathogenic _E. coli_ we believe that even 1 organism has a probability (admittedly low) of causing illness. For other pathogens (_L. monocytogenes_ _S. aureus_) the dose must be much higher (100,000+) to have a measurable probability of causing illness.
– Don

dschaffner
February 8, 2014

“We know what these two gentlemen want.”

You know what I want? I want people to stop telling me what I want when you have never spoken to me or discussed my thoughts on the issue under consideration.

– Don

D. Smith
February 8, 2014

This is a great little article about food regulators and the want for food freedoms. I know, lots of folks don’t like John Stossel, but this is short and could easily apply to raw milk. I, for one, would NOT want photos of my home and my guests posted on social sites (I don’t belong to any social sites but lots of people do and will post absolutely anything). But the rest of this is just common sense.

http://reason.com/archives/2014/02/05/your-foods-reputation-vs-government-regu

When did we unravel about food rights and food safety? We still get together with several couples a few times a year and eat, slosh around some booze and have a great time. How long before THAT will be illegal? Can I invite my kids and their families for dinner without a food inspector? We used to have “triangle dinners” through our church (3 couples get together at someone’s home once a month, until all 3 have been the host). I don’t know that it’s been “outlawed” but our Pastor has discontinued them out of fear. This is just all getting way too nutzo.

Ron
February 8, 2014

Is it possible for you to take it easy already? (I’m looking at all your comments below). In terms of your response to Mary you are, in effect, wasting my time with your inane denial jargon!……let me see if I can set you off again………PATHOGEN!

Go to it their Mikie boy, go to it with all you’ve got!

Now, I’d like to make this very personal at this point………why?
Because I’m sitting here in southern New Jersey without legal access to Raw milk. That’s why………it’s personal!

Frankly rawmilkmike, YOU are not helping! YOU are hindering. YOU, are a f—–g moron!!!

February 8, 2014

Miguel,

After a nights sleep, I think that I need to apologize. The language spoken by the indian in your video…is not foreign and it is not slow or unwelcomed. I can certainly appreciate a language that is connected to the earth and grounded in acknowledgement of nature and its great powers. Please excuse me and forgive me. Just because this man has an appreciation for nature does not mean that his language is not part of the whole and perhaps a vision for a better future. Wisdom of the ages is tragically lost in todays world.

Bryan - oz4caster
February 8, 2014

Ora, I wouldn’t go for half and half. To me “bridging the gap” is seeking and encouraging honest and open dialogue. I’m afraid that where politics are involved, this is tough. There are hidden agendas that are more about market control and profit than about public health. The public health issue is a scare tactic for those seeking market control and has been for quite some time now. It has been very successful for pushing questionable vaccines as well for banning sales of raw milk. To succeed, we ultimately have to win the court of public opinion and get enough public support to have the political clout necessary to overcome the political forces against us. Thankfully, this problem has been overcome in at least a few states. A big part of this process is educating the public.

rawmilkmike
February 8, 2014

Don, you say: “microbial risk assessment thinking” You mean epidemiology don’t you? So what does the epidemiological evidence show? Wouldn’t an empirical study be cheaper and more accurate?

You then say: “For many pathogens like _Salmonella_ and pathogenic _E. coli_ we believe that”. What is that “belief” based on?
…
PSEUDOSCIENCE displays a remarkable and characteristic indifference to fact. Writers tend simply to make up bogus “facts”— what Norman Mailer calls “factoids”— where needed, instead of going to the trouble of  consulting reliable reference works, much less investigating directly. Yet these fictitious facts are often central to the pseudoscientist’s argument and conclusions! 
https://webspace.utexas.edu/cokerwr/www/index.html/distinguish.htm
…
This is epidemiology. This is how an illness and a bacteria are associated with raw milk or any food for that matter. This is the nonsense behind, what our government calls, food safety and their quest for the elusive pathogen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCK2mflwESM
…
Raw milk has always been a low risk food.
“Raw milk myths and evidence by Nadine Ijaz pdf”
http://www.bccdc.ca/NR/rdonlyres/00E8757C-99E4-4414-8C54-2C92BB776567/0/RevisedPresentationJuly8RawmilkmythsandevidenceNadineIjaz_PROTECTED.pdf

Shelly-D.
February 8, 2014

Don, I do not need to speak with you, because your interviews say it all. The “Food safety expert” community, of which you belong, wants raw milk banned. Your agreement with this shows in three ways: In a previous podcast, you voiced that you want people to stop drinking it and wanted to come up with ways to achieved this; in conversation with Dr. Gumpert, there are no circumstances you would agree to which it would be legal; and you have never spoken up in public against what is being done to raw milk supporters by your colleagues. By wanting raw milk banned, you agree with those who have not only threatened raw milk farmers with jail time, fines, and losing their farms, but have also carried through with these threats. These are some of the outcomes of banning raw milk and government efforts to try to ban it:

– A farmer is put in jail and tortured for 8 days: “NaturalNews can now report that 65-year-old senior citizen James Stewart, a raw milk farmer with no criminal history, was nearly tortured to death in the LA County jail this past week. He survived a ‘week of torturous Hell’ at the hands of LA County jail keepers who subjected him to starvation, sleep deprivation, hypothermia, loss of blood circulation to extremities, verbal intimidation, involuntary medical testing and even subjected him to over 30 hours of raw biological sewage filth containing dangerous pathogens.” (California)

– A farm-worker is abducted, held against his will, and threatened: “[He} was thrown into a van and forced to tell them where [the farmer] was at the time. Then they drove to that house, set up infrared cameras and listening devices, and stayed for half an hour. After this, the cousin was pushed out of the van and told not to tell anyone about the incident or ‘he would be sorry.’ …. Local farmers … had been asked if they would house surveillance teams. For a period of several months, vehicles were parked on the road close to the farm both day and night. Whenever farm personnel approached these cars, they took off. License plate numbers were recorded and passed on to the police who said they were unable to trace them.” (Ontario)

– “Raw Milk Moms” have been threatened with “criminal or administrative penalties”: “A few weeks after the initial outbreaks, [her] problems began. Investigators from the MDA, accompanied by local police, showed up at her home one morning, presented her husband with a criminal search warrant, and spent two hours going through the family’s refrigerator and questioning her about whether she was reselling milk, meat,and other food. She was “terrified, horrified, traumatized”by the home search, breaking down in tears in front of the seven investigators and police rummaging through her kitchen. ”

– A peaceful Amish farmer is threatened with 3 yrs in jail or $10,000 in fines (Wisconsin).

These are just a few examples – some of us know many more, personally.

———————

“From there, we moved on to the question of whether the feds really have it in for raw milk. They said, quite sincerely, that they didn’t think so. As if food club members and farmers who have been hit by raids are all paranoid. ”

A timeline of some of these raids is at http://www.naturalnews.com/033280_FDA_raids_timeline.html .

Don, you and your loved ones have never been arrested, jailed, fined, threatened with loss of land and livelihood, or had your marriage break up because of the stress of ongoing harassment and threats, by government officials, because of raw milk. You haven’t had a child protection worker call on you because someone reported to them that you gave raw milk to your child. You are in the enviable position of being able to lecture about it from an ivory tower, secure in the fact that your job and life are under no threat what-so-ever. We are not in this position of safety, privilege, and power-over that you are in. Instead, we know systemic oppression, government-sponsored vilification, and legal threats first-hand. Can you blame anyone if emotions on our side “run high”? You are not violating a law and at risk up to 3 yrs in jail or a $3M fine for bringing your preferred beverage home in a cooler (“causing a Health Hazard”). I am, every week, thanks to you and your colleagues. Will I stop doing it? No, because the improvements in my children’s health due to raw milk are worth the risk, and as a mother I will do anything for my children. If you want our trust, if you want to dialogue, then how about talking about legalization and speak out publicly against the persecution, raids, and arrests if you disagree with them, because there is no middle ground.

rawmilkmike
February 9, 2014

So what’s your plan, Ron?
…
What would help?
…
Do you have a lot of denialists in New Jersey?

rawmilkmike
February 9, 2014

Where they actually convicted? In the US there’s usually some sort of plea bargain. In Wisconsin they just pull your license and then charge you with not having a license even though they say it is illegal to sell raw milk to the same person twice.

Deborah - Pacifica
February 9, 2014

Sorry, Shelley, this will be short (I’m at a conference right now), but girl, did you ever hit the nail right on the head with your post!! Big kudos to you. As all of my girls are now grown & raising young ones of their own, like you, they too will do what ever it takes for protecting their children’s health.

Ken Conrad
February 9, 2014

Well said Shelly>

Ken

rawmilkmike
February 9, 2014

Even though raw milk is not really illegal in the US, it’s not really legal anywhere in the US either.
…
You do realize we are fighting a $4 trillion a year industry. Could there be a bigger opponent?

D. Smith
February 9, 2014

@ Ora: My brothers and I agree that if we could make our own “birth” choices, we’d have been born in the mid 1800’s or so. One of my brothers, however, would like to have gone waaaaay back, as you described in your post about being on this continent before the whites ever got here. As a woman, I don’t think I’d wanna go back quite that far! “Respect for the earth and what nature provides” – now those are goals to strive for. Instead, we are now going full-speed the wrong direction – in every way.

dschaffner
February 9, 2014

Shelly, did you listen to the podcast or just read David’s summary?

dschaffner
February 9, 2014

When I say “quantitative microbial risk assessment” I mean quantitative microbial risk assessment. It’s not the same as epidemiology.

The belief is based on research published in the peer reviewed literature. Here is a fairly comprehensive review: http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/y4666e/y4666e00.htm

Shelly-D.
February 9, 2014

I read David’s summary. Can you provide a link to the podcast where you interview David? I did not think it was posted yet.

dschaffner
February 9, 2014

As of February 8, 2014 and 10:02 PM (Eastern) its not posted. The audio editing is done, and the draft show notes are written. Ben and I expect to post it over the weekend. We will also let David know, and as he says, “The actual podcast isn’t available yet; when it is, presumably in a matter of days, I will post a link.”

dschaffner
February 9, 2014

“In a previous podcast, you voiced that you want people to stop drinking it and wanted to come up with ways to achieved this”

Please listen to the previous podcast, and tell me where I said I wanted people to stop drinking raw milk.

“in conversation with Dr. Gumpert, there are no circumstances you would agree to which it would be legal”

Again, please tell me where I said this.

“and you have never spoken up in public against what is being done to raw milk supporters by your colleagues.”

Have you been present every time I’ve spoken about raw milk in public?

Bryan - oz4caster
February 9, 2014

Thanks for the link. Below are some quotes from that source.

4.1 HUMAN STUDIES
4.1.1 Outbreak investigations
“When there is a common-source outbreak of foodborne or waterborne disease of sufficient magnitude, an EPIDEMIOLOGICAL investigation is generally undertaken to identify the cause of the problem, to limit its further spread, and to provide recommendations on how the problem can be prevented in the future.”

Limitations
“The primary limitation is that the purpose and focus of outbreak investigations is to identify the source of the infection in order to prevent additional cases, rather than to collect a wide range of information. The case definitions and methods of the investigation are chosen for efficiency, and often do not include data that would be most useful in a hazard characterization, and may vary widely among different investigations. The primary goal of the investigation is to quickly identify the specific source(s) of infection, rather than to precisely quantify the magnitude of that risk. Key information that would allow data collected in an investigation to be useful for risk assessments is therefore often missing or incomplete. Estimates of dose or exposure in outbreaks may be inaccurate…”

“In such instances, use of outbreak data to develop dose-response models generally requires assumptions concerning the missing information.”

I’m not an expert, but it looks like quite a bit of room for bias to intervene in outbreak investigations, which appear to be a significant component of quantitative microbial risk assessment.

Shawna Barr
February 9, 2014

“My personal view is that in our overly regulated society, it is inevitable that if the sale of raw milk is to be legalized it will have to come under regulation. If we are forced to have regulations, my preference is that they should be tiered with more stringent regulations applying to the largest dairies, less stringent regulations to medium sized dairies, and little or no regulation of very small dairies.”

Such sensibility! I’m ready to talk about making that a reality! Anyone else?

Although I think I would swap the words “less stringent” for “scaleable regulations” Quality standards should be the same across the board. However, how those standards are acheived should be adaptable based on the size and particular needs of each raw milk producer.

dschaffner
February 9, 2014

Bryan, Thanks for reading the document.

As the document says, dose response data can come from human studies, animal studies, in vitro studies and expert elicitation. Within human studies there are outbreak investigations, surveillance and annual health statistics, volunteer feeding studies, biomarkers and intervention studies. Each of these data sources has strengths and limitations.

Every thing we do as scientists is subject to bias. A lot of science is running the right controls to make sure we don’t fool ourselves into believing that something is “true” when it’s not. That’s why we have peer-review, and why one study seldom proves anything. It takes many studies over time before we are mostly sure of something.

Outbreak investigations are one source of data used to construct dose-response models. Dose-response models are one component of quantitative microbial risk assessment.

Bryan - oz4caster
February 9, 2014

There is no shortage of volunteer human feeding when it comes to raw milk. The shortage is thorough long-term studies of these people versus those who do not drink raw milk, with respect to bacterial related illnesses. My guess is that those who can afford such expensive studies are not interested in funding them.

Dave Milano
February 9, 2014

Calling eaters a “market” is absurd. Eating is essential to life. Food ought to be no more a commodity than is air. (Though I’m sure if the corporate/government world could figure out a way to control our air supply they would do it in a minute.)

You know, come to think of it, commercializing air might not be such a bad idea really. It could be a big improvement over the current wild-west, everybody-breath-whatever-they-darn-well-please system. Think of the potential for advancement in health and well-being! What if we were, at long last, prevented from breathing air that doesn’t meet a legal quality standard? And the economic possibilities! Endless! New jobs and new money channels would spring up like mushrooms–production, storage, distribution, financing, research, regulation…

Sure, there will be doubters. Some people will develop a little cough or some shortness of breath, and suspect that the system is better at producing money than good air. The doubters will clamor loudly for new and better regulation. In the midst of the clamor new businesses will arise–organic air purveyors! These will be small businesses at first, and they won’t have an easy time of it, what with all the global-air business/government collusion. But the organic air market will surely grow, and its businesses with it, maybe enough that regulators are forced to allow organic airmen to sit at the big table and share ideas, or even help write new regulations, so organic air can be as financially viable as standard air.

Yes indeedy, now THAT will be progress!

Ken Conrad
February 9, 2014

Bryan

“The public health issue is a scare tactic for those seeking market control and has been for quite some time now.” You said a mouthful!

Such an agenda however may be less hidden in Canada where we have a marriage of convenience between marketing boards (the only legally recognized buyer of raw milk”) and the federal and provincial ministries of health where indeed the efforts of one serve the efforts of the other.

If the court of public opinion desires regulation and standards then that is what the public will get including all of its biased idiosyncrasies. Indeed if people want regulated milk, they can buy it in grocery stores. For the family and myself we have been and will continue to drink our raw milk untested and unregulated.
Ken

Ken Conrad
February 9, 2014

What would be the difference between Bryan’s variable regulations and your “scalable regulation”?
Could you elaborate on how “scalable regulation” could be used to achieve the same quality standards across the board? The two ideas appear to be mutually exclusive and I would think that if your regulation were scalable or variable that you would have a difficult time achieving “the same quality standards across the board”.

As I stated in agreement with Miguel, “getting past this “absurdity” about “pathogens” is critical if we wish to live constructive, healthy lives”.

Ken

Ken Conrad
February 9, 2014

Dave
The government is already in the air business. It’s called “hot air”.

Ora Moose
February 9, 2014

Dave, stop it. You’re sounding too much like me with the the absurdities and making me think, it hurts. I’ll settle for the wild west (wait was that a pun?) Maybe I’ll go into the organic air balloon business.

Ora Moose
February 9, 2014

Mark, you still out there? Haven’t heard much must be busy. Anyways this one made me think of you, stay strong and don’t collaborate too much with insidious corporate controlled government entities. True independent scientist entities? definitely

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xieof3_was-not-was-knocked-down-made-small-treated-like-a-rubber-ball_music

Ora Moose
February 9, 2014

Shelly, I haven’t responded directly to any of your posts yet, but want you to know that your input is very highly regarded and appreciated please keep it coming. Keeep in mind, “they” are watching and reading everything, there’s no such thing as privacy anymore

rawmilkmike
February 9, 2014

Don, this is not a review. It shows the framework but gives no specifics. Here is your link and a few interesting excerpts.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/y4666e/y4666e00.htm
http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/y4666e/y4666e06.htm#bm06.4
Risk assessment for microbiological hazards in foods is defined by the Codex Alimentarius Commission (CAC) as a scientifically based process consisting of four components (Figure 1): hazard identification, exposure assessment, hazard characterization, and risk characterization.

Hazard characterization provides a description of the adverse health effects that may result from ingestion of a microorganism. When data are available, the hazard characterization should present quantitative information in terms of a ( dose-response relationship ) and the probability of adverse outcomes.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/y4666e/y4666e09.htm#bm09.1.3
4. DATA COLLECTION AND EVALUATION
4.1 Human studies
4.1.3 Volunteer feeding studies
The most obvious means for acquiring information on ( dose-response relations ) for foodborne and waterborne pathogenic microorganisms is to expose humans to the disease agent under controlled conditions. There have been a limited number of pathogens for which feeding studies using volunteers have been carried out. Most have been in conjunction with vaccine trials.
Strengths
Using human volunteers is the most direct means of acquiring data that relates an exposure to a microbial hazard with an adverse response in human populations. If planned effectively, such studies can be conducted in conjunction with other clinical trials, such as the testing of vaccines. The results of the trials provide a direct means of observing the effects of the challenge dose on the integrated host defence response. The delivery matrix and the pathogen strain can be varied to evaluate food matrix and pathogen virulence effects.
Limitations
None that apply to raw milk.
http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/y4666e/y4666e0b.htm#bm11
6. DOSE-RESPONSE MODELLING

Concurrently with the descriptive analysis of clinical or ( epidemiological ) information or data, mathematical modelling has been advocated to provide assistance in developing a ( dose-response relationship ), in particular when extrapolation to low doses is necessary. Mathematical models have been used for several decades in the field of toxicology.

rawmilkmike
February 9, 2014

Don, you say:
“Every thing we do as scientists is subject to bias.”, “That’s why we have peer-review, and why one study seldom proves anything.” and “we are mostly sure”

“peer-review” is great between peers but what good is it to the consumer looking into alternative medicine? Anyone consuming 3 cups of raw milk per day for more than 6 months ( knows ) it’s safer and healthier than anything they’ve consumed before. So who is best equipped to decide what to feed their children? Who is the real expert when it comes to raw milk’s microbial risk assessment?

Raw milk has already been proven a low risk food.
“Raw milk myths and evidence by Nadine Ijaz pdf”
http://www.bccdc.ca/NR/rdonlyres/00E8757C-99E4-4414-8C54-2C92BB776567/0/RevisedPresentationJuly8RawmilkmythsandevidenceNadineIjaz_PROTECTED.pdf

dschaffner
February 9, 2014

Rawmilkmike, I’m familiar with Nadine’s work, and she and I have discussed it via email. I’ve seen the video of her BC CDC talk, and I’ve reviewed the slides you link to. I’ve encouraged Nadine to get her work published in a peer reviewed journal.

dschaffner
February 9, 2014

Rawmilkmike, I’m familiar with the document. I’m not sure of your point.

rawmilkmike
February 9, 2014

Byron said:
“If we are forced to have regulations, my preference is that they should be tiered with more stringent regulations applying to the largest dairies, less stringent regulations to medium sized dairies, and little or no regulation of very small dairies.”

That sounds great but it assumes that regulations aren’t intended to put small and medium sized dairies out of business.

rawmilkmike
February 9, 2014

Holy cow! I need to print a copy of this.

D. Smith
February 9, 2014

@ Ken: The other absurdity we need to get rid of, or at least better define, is “peer reviewed studies”. If these studies are peer reviewed it should be stated if they were independently verified and who did the verifying and how. Otherwise it’s pseudo intellectual sophism. People who wish to persuade others without real evidence will frequently rely on peer reviews, in God-like terms. At best, specious arguments.

A Peer Reviewed Study is any study which has been reviewed by another member of the same profession. It can be likened to “My friend, Jim, says my study is great!” However, an independently verified study is any study which has been duplicated by an independent third party. This means that someone else did the same study using the same procedure outlined in the original study and achieved statistically similar results. Of course, they must also report differing results, and that can be a disadvantage, at which point *peer reviewed* loses its shine. 😉

The article at the link below deals with medicine rather than raw milk, but it holds peer review under the microscope. Looking for truth without bias is difficult these days no matter what subject you are discussing.

http://healthimpactnews.com/2012/is-90-of-the-peer-reviewed-clinical-research-for-modern-medicine-false/

Shawna Barr
February 9, 2014

What I mean is the quality of the final product should be the same, regardless of size of the operation, but the steps taken to get to the final product may look different.

Here’s an example. Lets say the standard we are trying to achieve is “Milking equipment should be kept clean and free of biofilm build up.” If I am milking 500 cows, my milking equipment probably consists of some kind of automatic pipeline system. The system is rather large, and requires an automated wash system using lots of water, specific cleaners, check points, etc. Every inch of the system cannot be cleaned by hand. The waste water used to clean the system will have to be properly managed, etc.

Contrast that with a farmer milking 5 cows. Her milking equipment may consist of a bucket milker. The system has 3 feet of milk line and can be thorougly washed by hand in a sink using abou 6 gallons of clean hot water, basic household cleansers and some vinegar to control milkstone buildup.

A farmer hand-milking one cow into a bucket has an even more simple task of equipment cleaning.

The final outcome is that the “stringent” standard of maintaining clean equipment is achieved for all three operations. The methods used to achieve those standards are adaptable to the scale and specific needs of the farm. This seems like common sense, but its not. Take a look at dairy regulations and they tend to be one-size-fits all…and that size is big.

miguel
February 9, 2014

Quality. Keeping equipment clean is important. Mineral content is also important. Freedom from agricultural contaminants such as herbicide residues and antibacterials is also part of quality.

Bryan - oz4caster
February 9, 2014

Mike, that’s why I said “Any regulations should be designed to optimize milk safety at reasonable cost”. To me a reasonable cost should not put most dairies out of business. That would be an unreasonable cost. My greatest concern with milk safety is if large confinement dairies were to begin producing raw milk for consumption. I’m not even sure that’s a good idea. I would not drink raw milk from a confinement dairy. But if we are ever going to get the political support of big dairy, that option may be of greatest interest to them.

rawmilkmike
February 9, 2014

Don, are you saying you have no opinion of your own?

rawmilkmike
February 9, 2014

Don, the only issue here, is whether or not our government is blocking access to healthy food. So before going any farther, do you admit that your believes affect our access to the foods of our choice?
…
If you do then, my point is,
You didn’t give any examples of “research published in the peer reviewed literature.”, you didn’t show that “quantitative microbial risk assessment ” wasn’t completely based on epidemiology, and “The term “minimum infectious dose” is not in line with modern quantitative microbial risk assessment thinking.” only because they use the term “dose-response relation”
…
If you believe raw milk already contains certain pathogens and raw milk has already been proven to be a low risk food, then there is no reason not to do human testing and no reason not to determine the minimum infectious dose for most if not all of your so called pathogens. Like it says in your review “epidemiological information or data, and mathematical modelling has only been advocated to provide assistance in developing a dose-response relationship, in particular when extrapolation to low doses is necessary.”

rawmilkmike
February 9, 2014

Ron, the last time I talked to a guy like you, DATCP’s head lawyer said to us, with a smirk, I don’t mean to be flippant but you are not “The People” your representatives are.

Ken Conrad
February 9, 2014

Shawna
Regulations are based on standards that are backed up by rules or directives made and maintained by an authority whose purpose is to achieve a consistent and required, or agreed level of quality.

I have no problem with educating farmers as to potential protocols for achieving certain reasonable common sense standards. If you choose however to introduce a nitpicking complex array of scalable or variable regulations in order to achieve such an objective then you are merely playing into the hands of the regulator and opening up Pandora’s box.

As I stated above in my comment to Bryan, “If the court of public opinion desires regulation and standards then that is what the public will get including all of its biased idiosyncrasies.”

Ken

dschaffner
February 9, 2014

rawmilkmike,

Are you asking if I have an opinion on whether raw milk is a “low risk” food?

I think that is the wrong question. It first requires a definition of the word “low”. It also depends if we are interested in risk of illness per serving, or population risk.

I’m much more interested in understanding what factors control risk of foodborne illness (from raw milk, or any food for that matter) and then how we can design systems to manage and reduce that risk.

dschaffner
February 9, 2014

Mike,

If you chose to define “the only issue here, is whether or not our government is blocking access to healthy food”, then I’ll decline to continue the conversation. I’m a scientist, and you want to have a political discussion, and I’m not interested.

I do believe that some raw milk, may on occasion contain some level of some foodborne pathogens. Just as I believe that many foods may on occasion contain some level of some foodborne pathogens.

See my other comment on why I think “low risk” is not a question that interests me.

Published and generally accepted dose-response relationships already exist for most if not all foodborne pathogens linked to raw milk.

dschaffner
February 9, 2014

Hey folks. The podcast that Ben and I did with David is now posted: http://foodsafetytalk.com/food-safety-talk/2014/2/8/food-safety-talk-55-damn-ignorant-phds. David joins us at about 25:30 and then leaves at around 1:30:00. I’m sure David will link into his post above, but I wanted to get this to you as soon as it was posted.

Ora Moose
February 9, 2014

Just because they’re not out to get you, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be paranoid or unemployed. My chickens approved this message.

Shelly-D.
February 9, 2014

No, there is no such thing as privacy, The Health Authorities in my province are happily busy tracking down cowshares and goatshares and shutting them down (a make-work project for health inspectors, if you ask me). One of their tactics is to pose as potential consumers wanting to find a source of raw milk, even inventing lies about needing it for their family’s health – and then they bust any farmers they find. You can be certain that they have someone monitoring this blog. Even saying publicly that there are still herdshares operating in this province puts them all at risk. After all, according to the BCCDC, raw milk is dangerous. Fines, jail time, and losing our farms are all okay by these folks, because obviously to them, what we’re doing makes use worse than drug dealers. If I sold heroin, I’d be up for a maximum $1000 fine, not $3million.

rawmilkmike
February 10, 2014
rawmilkmike
February 10, 2014

Don, if you truly are “much more interested in understanding what factors control risk of foodborne illness” then you’re talking to the right guy. That’s my favorite topic. Haven’t you noticed?

null.set
February 10, 2014

If the ( so-called ) Health Authorities had lowered the boom on a cowshare in British Columbia, most likely I would’ve heard about it. But I have not. Northern Health Authority intimidated a couple of Agisters, so as to make them quit, but that was 4 years ago. Wild Things Organics wound their cowshare down, largely because the Agisters were worn out after doing a wonderful job for 7 years. A goatmilk herdshare had to retreat from selling it as pet food at a farmer’s market, yet no prosecution

50 years ago, Andy Warhol said ‘in the future, there will be no privacy’… and here we are. No doubt the govt. knows what’s going on at grassroots level, or else they’re fools. Or is that redundant? I’m guessing that we have not seen RCMP jackboots stomping in to a farmyard of any of the cowshares here because BC Supreme Court Justice Wong gave “the authorities” what they wanted – gaol-time for us Contemnors. That, plus, a dry judgment for $100,000 court costs!, was enough of a triumph for Prosecutrixie Susan Beach to sit back, do nothing and gloat … at least until judges in a higher Court, decide whether Canadians have the right to use and enjoy our private property, in Michael Schmidt’s appeal, in Ontario.
In our hearing a year ago, I made the govt.’s expert witness admit that there’s no evidence of anyone getting sick from drinking raw milk over the last 33 years*. That, plus the fact that one of the top guys in the BC Centre For Disease Control, is on our side, set the over-educated dunces back on their heels.

The post on this forum, about a pastor advising people to quit fellowshipping at home dinner parties, because he’s worried about a health authority inspecting private premises, makes me retch. You wonder why this nation is in such deplorable condition? There’s your answer, in a nutshell. A chickenshit pulpit parrot, who derives his salary out of the public trough via the iniquitous income tax racket, lacks the simple courage to stand his ground on a winnable issue. Summarized as : “occupy til I come”. If he ‘can’t run with the footmen, how shall he do in the swelling of the Jordan?’ Meaning,; if the guy lacks the very minimum testicular wherewithal, now, how’s he going to fare when the heat REALLY comes down?! And you can tell him I said so : I can be reached at 604 526 5064 for my stock sermon on Romans 13

Go read a bit of the history of the Republic… educate yrself as to what men and women were made of in those days ; a far, far cry from the jamtarts in charge of congregations, today = compromisers simpering and toadying to the local ministerial association, beholden to the God-damned World Council of Churches. Oh, I could go on

* the one single case proffered by “the authorities” – ostensibly a child who got sick from raw milk from a goatshare, in 2001, in Chemainus BC – is debatable. That family had been at a petting zoo, days before the incident. Not one person in the 18 other families who drank the same milk, got ill.

to gaol – is hanging back, not lowering the boom on anyone.

dschaffner
February 10, 2014

Excellent. What factors do you think control the risk of foodborne illness from raw milk?

rawmilkmike
February 10, 2014

Don, science happens to be a popular part of this very political discussion. I assume you are here to defend your science not your beliefs.
…
This next statement makes you sound more like a politician than a scientist.
“Published and generally accepted dose-response relationships already exist for most if not all foodborne pathogens linked to raw milk.”

rawmilkmike
February 10, 2014
rawmilkmike
February 10, 2014
rawmilkmike
February 10, 2014

Don, your question, like your science, starts with a conclusion. I, like many others, happen to “know” raw milk prevents “foodborne illness” it doesn’t cause it.
…
Nutrition is the most significant factor controlling the risk of foodborne illness.
…
Have you seen this link? Raw milk consumers know how many sardines are in the can because they opened it. They don’t need a 20 page report.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCK2mflwESM

dschaffner
February 10, 2014

Thanks for the humorous video.