Shortly after the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and the American Academy of Pediatrics issued their one-two punch against raw milk in Decemberwith widespread media attention I was talking with a couple of dairy farmers about the course of events. Someone wondered: Do you think the CDC and AAP news reports–about the Minnesota study and the pediatricians’ call for a ban on raw milk— were coordinated? Absolutely, speculated one of the farmers. No question.
But how could we make a connection?
I decided based on that conversation to look into the whole matter more carefully. The result is an article in PR Watch, a media watchdog publication that is part of the Center for Media and Democracy, out of Wisconsin. In the article, I highlight the intriguing coincidences around the CDC Minnesota study disclosure, the AAP press release about its raw milk policy, and a USA Today correction–all of which occurred in mid-December.
I conclude that the seemingly coordinated blasts against raw milk were unfortunate on a number of levelsfor mixing science and politics yet again, as well as for seeking to undermine tentative moves toward cooperation among raw milk advocates and opponents, and in the process discouraging moves toward broader acceptance of safety standards for raw milk.
The article also highlights the mainstream medias deference to organizations like the AAP and CDC. Its never an easy matter, no matter what your profession, to be publicly critical of your colleagues. In effect, I criticize publications like USA Today for not only bowing down to the CDC and AAP, and regurgitating their press releases without serious question, but, adding insult to injury, rolling over and publishing a correction when challenged about a reporting error that wasnt an error at all.
All serious journalists are taught early on to question press releases, no matter what the source. Unfortunately, too many reporters do little or no questioning when the press releases come from government agencies like the CDC and from august medical organizations like the AAP. So they wind up becoming tools in the ever-more-bizarre political war being waged on our food in the name of science by government agencies and medical organizations.
Why the abandonment of basic journalistic standards? Part of the problem is that mainstream media have pruned their reporting staffs, putting ever more production pressure on reporters left to mind the ship. Reporters also fear being left out of news events like the “embargoed” studies and reports I refer to in the PR Watch article, if the reporters ask too many tough questions or are too critical.
But another part of the problem is the reluctance of reporters to question people with Ph.D. and M.D. after their names. As if those people are all-knowing, and above political and ideological reproach .when the truth of the matter is that those people are increasingly partisan, to such an extent they have become willing to endanger public health by shooting down any and all well-intentioned regulated approaches to expanding raw milk availability in states around the country.
There is some discussion following my previous post about using the media to expose abuses of farmers, like that against hog farmer Mark Baker in Michigan. As Mark McAfee suggests, it can be done, especially if there is a particular event to highlight–whether it is a court decision or an agency assault. It’s not easy, though. The organizations farmers are battling against, like the CDC, FDA, AAP, and state agencies and universities have literal armies of public relations professionals working aggressively to tell the “official” story. It’s partly a matter of forging relationships with journalists. For all their inclinations to spout the party line, many reporters do have a soft spot for the underdog. It does make for more interesting reading than those politically motivated official studies.
Moreover, there are many more media options out there than was the case ten or fifteen years ago, including online radio and podcast programs much more sympathetic to small farmers and community-based food. A big reason the mainstream media generally haven’t done well in the transition to the Internet and more open information dissemination system is because of their linkages and dependency on big government and the corporate power scheme.
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Mark,
There is something many of us fail to realize and that is that food safety is totally irrelevant for two reasons. Yes, the first is that we don’t ban anything in this country simple because it is unsafe. And I don’t think it is radical to point that out. The second is the question you haven’t answered yet. Have you seen any correlation between state sponsored food safety and people getting sick?
Here are a few more questions; Is there any correlation between news reports of sick kids and the actual out break associations? How does the dairy industry prevent news reports mentioning the 77 pasteurized deaths and 430,000 pasteurized illnesses since 1972? And who’s responsible for the news reports of kids sick after drinking raw milk even though raw milk is actually preventing the very illness it is being blamed for? Once you answer these questions you will then know what is necessary to make raw milk readily available to the general public.
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Do you really think you can get a parent with a sick child, not to admit to raw milk consumption when asked by their doctor? Once they answer yes, walla, you have another raw milk outbreak association and anothernews report. It doesn’t matter what actually caused the childs illness.
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Are you saying American raw milk consumers are radicals and are jealous of raw milk consumers in foreign countries where raw milk is readily available to the general public?
Mike,
I don’t think Mark is arguing about what ought to be. He is telling you there are certain rules, and you either play by them or you lose your milk. If people get sick from tainted milk, then the producer is shut down. Small producers can’t stand to be shut down too often or for too long, or they go out of business. There is no ban. It doesn’t matter if there is any correlation between food safety regulations and people getting sick.
The news reports come from media that are often biased, that play up illnesses from raw milk much more than they do illnesses from pasteurized milk. I go through in my post above and in my PR Watch article why this happens. It’s not nice, it’s not fair, but it’s the way it is. Many of us are working to change the rules, to educate the media, and other actions, and gradually things will change. Some folks in Maine and a few other places have gotten Food Sovereignty ordinances approved, and they live under different rules. And if you live in Europe, you live under different rules yet, which differ somewhat from country to country.
I think what Mark was saying is that you really can’t argue with the people enforcing the rules, and if you argue with them rather than figuring out the best ways to conform, you’re going to lose.
Are you a lawyer…you make great arguments. To answer your questions…OPDC has already won this battle and this fight per see. We are selling raw milk to consumers all over CA and growing like crazy with incredibly good bacteria data and pathogen control as demonstrated by our Milk Filter test results and other restults. OPDC is not perfect but we are really focussed on the best practices, and the best conditions with the best technologies with the deepest committment to reduce risk to its lowest level possible. If dollar voting does not tell me about success nothing will or does.
Unfortunately….most of the rest of America is prohibited from dollar voting because of market-dollar- hostage taking, so people can not actually express the pure will of their dollar being voted. Like the “really democratic process” of not allowing a vote in the Health Committee in Maryland so the elected members of the state of Maryland are not allowed to vote the position of the people. That is some form of weird legislative- FOOD INC-corporate FDA-ism or far worse.
I can tell you one thing….if OPDC was found to have pathogens in our milk…we would be shut down everytime a bad bug was found. That is why food safety matters critically. A consumer can not dollar vote if they have no product to vote for!!!!
Do I make any sense here??? Other facts are irrelevent. What matters is being on the shelf and feeding people. If that process can not happen….then the raw milk evolution can not happen. A recall stops that process dead in its tracks!! Also…if we can not demonstrate a pattern of excellence, we can kiss our liability insurance goodbye. recalls based on just plain pathogen detection and no illnesses will kill our insurance just as fast as a true illness being reported.
This is not fair…never said it was. This is hard ass reality. We understand this, we thrive in it because we get the rules of this game. If you buck the rules you are not going to build a market and you sure will not have the societal right to sure anyone.
I am not sure how many of you super-liberals or hard-ass conservatives agree with me….but I am the original-humanitarian-liberal, with a serious dose of reality-check. Not sure what that makes me today, but I really do not care about the labels any one places on me. All I care about is the health of the families and kids we serve and understanding how to limit the risk to all of our consumers. So far this system of ethical priorities has served us well. I do not plan on changing them any time soon.
Food Safety First!!! That means I can not get enough data on every possible risk and I can not invest enough in understanding systems that we work with. I want no surprises from anyone including my state regulators…bless their hearts.
You also read minds from 2400 miles away….my thoughts precisely.
Have a great weekend.
One more thought before the weekend.
If coliforms are less than 10 or better yet…less than 3 or even less than 1, the mathematic odds of having enough ecoli 0157H7 pathogens ( they are in the same bacterial class as benign-coliforms and therefore are represented inside the coliform data ) then it is near impossible to have enough pathogens present to cause illness in anyone…including the most weakened immune system.
Please remember this, for illness to occur there must be:
1.A weakened and welcoming host with out immunity to that pathogen
2.A load of pathogens high enough to trigger illness
3.The pathogen must be a virile form
4. Some say that there are other factors such as chemistry and lack of other genomics that allow the pathogenic DNA to express itself etc.
The presence of a pathogen is not fore-telling of illness. That is a sure fact. The lack of a presence of a pathogen is not foretelling of illness.
So…we do our best using the best technologies that we have at this still quite primative stage of human knowledge.
Two words to describe you would be a Passionate Warrior, but sometimes you put the cart before the horse. In theory what you are stating about coliforms and E.coli 0157:H7 sounds logical, but it certainly hasn’t been proven. It will take time to show, that over a long period of time, there have been no ecoli outbreaks at the raw milk dairies who have consistent very low coliform counts. I would like to hope there would be no outbreaks involving any pathogens, not just pathogenic E.coli.
You had that same fiery passion against AB1735 claiming there was no connection between coliform counts and pathogens and how important coliforms (the healthy bacteria) were in raw milk. http://www.organicpastures.com/pdfs/technical_paper_ab1735.pdf
In hindsight, reducing the coliform count to 10 or less was actually a great gift to you. The regulators forced this gift on you with you kicking and screaming the entire way. Funny how a few years can change a person’s perspective.
You also went passionate crazy about the BSK study making all sorts of claims about raw milk’s ability to kill pathogens. In hindsight, this was not correct information at all. But at the time, you would have bet your life on it.
My point Mark, is that you are early in the game with RAWMI. Time will tell if there is an absolute 100% connection between maintaining very low coliform counts and the absence of raw milk outbreaks involving E.coli 0157:H7. I’m rooting for your theory to be correct.
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Colostrum/Immune Milk Studies
http://www.raw-milk-facts.com/colostrumimmunemilkrefs.html
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Universal Oral Vaccine: The Immune Milk Saga
by Anthony di Fabio – Part 3
http://www.tldp.com/New%20Articles/Universal%20oral%20vaccine%20Part%203.htm
I will agree with you with one caveat, I do agree after climbing a huge somewhat lonely 8 year ecoli learning curve….yes AB1735 is of the best things to happen to me. Ab1735 birthed our RAMP plans, initiated incredible experimentation & innovation, started and fueled RAWMI. It is truly unfortunate that Dr. Beam and CDFA chose to secretly pass the low coliform standard in 2007 and elect to keep the legislative process from the producers. How different it would have been if we would have been given training about why a low coliform count equates to a dramatic reduction of the risk of ecoli pathogens. This did not happen. Instead, we went it mostly alone and by trial, error and help from great friends….we figured it out!
As with all things and experiences on earth…we do not have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight. Who knows in the future, there may be better tools to measure relative serious pathogen risk, but for now it is a solid tool. I think we can all agree, ecoli 0157 is the bad bug to be most concerned about…listeria has never been an issue with raw milk. Salmonella is not a concern for me. It might be for others but I just do not find it to be a troublesome issue. Campy is not the kidney HUS problem and once you have it….lifelong immunity is imparted.
So….all that said, Dr. Beam was right. Yes…I said it here. He was not very open or fair in his approach to legislation and or politics, but I must concede he was right. At least as we see risk reduction and our current knowledge of benign coliforms and its ugly cousin…. The ecoli pathogen family.
I will also say that campy can be found in raw milk with zero coliforms. So we have lots to learn. We know that campy is not in the coliform family so we can not use coliforms as an indicator to directly assess its relative presence or possible risk. We have also learned that on top of a super clean udder, SCC really drive coliforms. We have learned from our friends in Pennsylvania that Campy can be a type of mastitis. Wow.
Put it all together and we can now reduce risk dramatically….not to zero, but certainly to a low risk that is among the lowest of any food you will eat in the USA.
Mary…I also appreciate your reasoned passion. It is partially because of your dogged determination to warn others that I have been driven to do the things I have done to navigate raw milk food safety and hopefully bring it to a higher plane. As a father and fellow human being…the very last thing I would ever want is to be accused of or actually cause illness to children. I pray every day that the work we have done actually works as it should. So far the data shows our efforts to be solid and true. Most comforting are the very low coliform counts and the negative milk filter tests that are up to 10 times more sensitive than fluid finished product pathogen tests. All negative so far after 60 filters cultured!! The price of consistent raw milk food safety appears to be eternal vigilance. What ever it takes. We are driven and deeply committed. We have people to feed and a track record to create. I am not alone on this journey anymore.
Charlotte Smith, Shawna Barr, Christine Anderson, Alice in BC, Aaron and the RAMP team at OPDC and very soon Edwin Shank will share this journey and this commitment. It is great to see that all of the RAWMI Listed dairies have had solid data & uniformly solid experiences over time. Thx…go to Dr. Cat Berge and others that have helped us all so unselfishly. I am humbled by this community of great people that mentor, support and help each other.
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Mark probably understands the point Im trying to make but it’s quit possible that no one else does.
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You made the statement If people get sick from tainted milk, then the producer is shut down.. That tells me you don’t understand my point.
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That one sentence makes three incorrect assertions. 1. We don’t know what the people got sick from. 2. We don’t know the milk was tainted. And 3. You didn’t say raw milk, so you can’t say the producer is shut down.
My point is that all the safety precautions in the world won’t reduce outbreak associations if these illnesses aren’t actually caused by raw milk in the first place. Please tell me you understand the significance of that point.
In any of these raw milk outbreaks is there any reason to believe that any of the people involve were actually made sick by raw milk? What if none of these cases were caused by raw milk? Just think of the time and money wasted. Nadine Ijaz has already proven raw milk is low risk. What if there’s no risk or even better, what if it’s preventative?
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Even if you had strong evidence that one of the cases of diarrhea was actually caused by the raw milk that wouldn’t prove that the milk wasn’t in fact preventing that very same illness. But that’s going off topic.
What if there’s no reason for A1 raw milk in a plastic bottle to cost $20 a gallon?
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Small producers can’t stand to be shut down too often that’s why these raw milk bills don’t work.
There is no ban. that’s what I keep saying.
If It doesn’t matter if there is any correlation between food safety regulations and people getting sick. then why does everyone here keep talking about safety and preventing outbreaks?
If The news reports come from media that are often biased what good does it do to educate the media as you say?
play up illnesses from raw milk There you go again. Don’t you mean invent?
Does the media ever report illnesses from pasteurized milk
Many of us are working to change the rules what rules?
Food Sovereignty ordinances don’t seem to be working.
Europe is also governed by roman law and is dealing with the same problems we are. These are international companies.
I keep saying. Save your breath you really can’t argue with these people.
figuring out the best ways to conform? Mark, haven’t you talked to any raw milk farmers? What do you think they’ve all been doing?
Saying safe raw milk implies that there is such a thing as unsafe raw milk and not only hasn’t that ever been proven, but Nadine Ijaz has proven American raw milk is already a low risk food without any California style regulations.
What good am I doing here if I say nothing?
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I haven’t read this article or Mark’s entire post yet because I’m afraid it would be too much to process all at once.
As you say, profit-seeking producers may feel the need to appease these regulators, since they have to deal with them directly. In that case there’s an inherent tension between these producers and the citizen-activists who want to defend our food against this assault, especially where we want to liberate agriculture and food from corporate control completely. At the very least, the short-run goals of these two groups are different and perhaps at odds. Whether their long run goals are at odds is what’s in dispute here.
Also it’s not always clear in these discussions who “we” are supposed to be – the producers in that specific position, who may want to be in that position, or a putative big-picture Community Food movement.
If the task of citizens is not just to buy from local farmers but organize to support and defend them, it’ll have to be farmers who support the full liberation goal and aren’t just looking for their chance to sell out and take their place as cogs within corporatism.
On that score, the CELDF-influenced Benton County Community Rights Coalition just announced Friday that their third attempt to get a Local Food Rights ordinance, including a ban on cultivating GMOs, onto the ballot has won in court over the county objection which scuttled the two previous attempts. There’s nothing up about it at the site yet.
http://bentonccrc.org/
You or any farmer attempting to sell raw milk to consumers in the current regulatory environment is indeed in a catch-22 situation.
On the one hand you claim victory, on the other you suggest this absurd notion of capitulating to their terms of war which have done little more then to undermine the health and welfare of society.
In war there are no winners only survivors;
And although I will acknowledge that there are fundamental differences between success and victory, and failure and losing, if we choose to capitulate to their narrow minded and biased, perverse terms of war I fear any presumed victory will be short lived.
If these government regulators in conjunction with the medical profession, the drug, biotechnological and chemical industries fail to abandon their antagonistic toxic assault on all living organisms, from microbes to mammals, then no amount of safety will suffice.
This is not just about raw milk or a specific microbe; it is about of all food, all microbes, and respect for natural order and human free will.
From my perspective as a farmer, a parent and a God loving, peaceful, independent freethinking individual, I resent and I am disgusted with their terms of war, or better still their perverse tactics used on both the political and biological fronts.
To date their terms of war have had little to do with food safety and everything to do with reinforcing corporate control via deception and coercion.
The only reason why raw milk is still consumed to this date is because people have deliberately chosen to disregard and defy their self-serving terms of war.
Ken
Russ, I’m not sure my note to Rawmilkmike about “the rules” was as clear as it should have been. I wasn’t speaking about bureaucratic rules governing raw milk (which vary widely from state to state). The “rules” I was referring to are the food safety rules that are supposed to guide oversight of all foods. In our American scheme, they are based nearly entirely on illness from pathogens that taint foods. When people get sick from tainted food, public health professional investigate, based on a number of “rules,” like epidemiological connections and the presence of pathogens in people and/or food. Mike has suggested that those rules are often inappropriate or misguided. He has some intriguing points–I was just saying that American raw dairy farmers need to accept the fact that they are playing by the rules in effect.
Aside from various concerns I might have about those rules, my big problem comes when they are enforced differently for raw dairy than for other foods. The CDC Minnesota study seemed to me a major departure from those rules when the researchers made the initial assumption that everyone sickened by certain pathogens was assumed to have been sickened by raw milk if they consumed any. That assumption was made without any kind of epidemiological investigation or other investigation to assess the role of other tainted foods.
The rules under which farmers operate–for example, selling food privately–are a different matter. Those rules generally aren’t determined by bureaucratic rules, but are governed by contract law (or should be, in my view, in the absence of other prohibitions).
http://food.gov.uk/news-updates/consultations/consultations-england/2014/rawmilk-consult
since Jeremiah stepped ashore with the princesses Tea~tephi and Scota, and their entourage, raw milk has been a significant part of the diet of the British people. Thats been going on happily, with not so much as one incident, in the last decade, where someone got sick from raw milk. Some farms over there have been adairying for over half a century, with no report of illness from the raw milk.
Since 1215 AD, [ Magna Carta ] the over-arching principle in Angle-Land has been codified = the Monarch MUST consult the People … What a concept! As contrasted to how some places here in America outlaw this vital substance ; crypto-commie apparatchiks ruling by regulation. Obviously, this Forum has very talented people paying attention / contributing. Perhaps someone with a Phd in political science can explain the difference between how Adolph Hitler + his pals ( formally adjudged a gang involved in a criminal conspiracy ) carried out the subjugation of Germany in its Third Reich, versus the way Barry Suetoro is operating via executive orders ?
When I was in high school [ 1964 ] scholars were coming to grips with how did the most civilized nation in the world, ie Germany, fall to totalitarian-ism ? Their conclusion being : good Germans = ordinary, right-thinking people = let it happen, all the while saying to themselves it cant happen here.
The irrational outlawing of raw milk, flying in the face of the evidence happens for the same reason = utter insolence triumphing over apathy. = Those who presume we rule because we can, getting away with outlawing Common sense. But not to despair. We are winning |||||| Some of us learned from the tragedies of Nazi-ism and the Soviet experience in Russia : this too shall pass.
And time will indeed tell about the low-coliform/absence of outbreak connection. But what I can tell you right now it that regular milk testing and holding very low coliform thresholds motivates raw milk producers to up their game. This was certainly the way it worked for us. When we began regularly testing our milk, our attention to detail went way up. I haven’t met a raw milk producer who after begining to milk test hasn’t been motivated to look more carefully at their processes. Greater attention to detail is a good thing, if reducing net raw milk related outbreak is the aim. I’d love to hear how processes have improved at the McBee farm now that testing protocol has been adopted.
Actually we don’t.
Although in addition to the Grade A raw milk dairies, we’ve estimated that there are around 800-1000 small herdshares operating in California. None of them are currently regulated. However, at least 60 of those herdshares operators voluntarily showed up that the last RAWMI training, eager to learn how they can reduce risk….eager to learn how they can voluntarily implement these “California Style” standards. Why? Because the wide majority of raw milk producers want to do a good job, want access to good information, and want to establish a track record of safety.
I’m very much a realist. Just because I don’t consume raw milk and I would never condone giving raw milk to children, doesn’t mean that I don’t support finding a way to make the pathogen risk for raw milk as low as possible. Bottom line….there are lots of people consuming raw milk and they are giving it to their children.
Mark and I have found a common ground to focus on–raw milk safety standards. If we can do this, others can follow. I hope that we can model civil behavior even if we are on opposing sides of the issue.
It’s just a quick fixx but sometimes that’s all you need. Now off to crack open those raw oysters…
Lets get one thing perfectly straight and clear. I support multiple paths to raw milk access. Cow Shares, Family Cows, retail state approved raw milk….all of these paths have my support. The one common theme and value in each of these paths of access….however, must be food safety. If not, then we get a Tennessee Cow Share incident with 13 sick kids and coliform counts through the roof and pathogens found everywhere!! That said, much credit goes to McBee and her effort post incident. We found out that Tennessee gave no instructions under their Cow Share law. It was based purely on Freedom of choice andcownership of your own cow. Whoops!!! Big mistake. The Tennessee incident happened on a Grade A dairy. What was discovered was that the owners of the a grade A dairy were quite unaware of the dufferences between Grade A raw milk and raw milk for human consumption. After the illnesses, The owner called RAWMI and was mentored intensively, our own Edwin Shank showed her how to set up an on farm lab and with in weeks….she was making raw milk with less than 5 coliforms!!!
Ignorance is damn dangerous. Freedom is great but any mom with a sick kid could care less about freedom
Mark, this is what Sally Fallon has always proposed. She wants herdshare programs legal in every state WITHOUT government regulation.
Today, I do not think that Sally would agree with that statement. There is so much more to raw milk than universal access through what ever means possible. The groteque political and regulatory oppression of raw milk access has radicalized some advocates and consumers. When a mom is unfairly denied raw milk access….this can really piss her off and stir the constitutional and freedom rights area of her heart & brain!!
Sally knows the risks and respects RAMP plans and testing. Sally is not one of these radicals. She has herself gone through a learning curve, just as I have. Sally has applied to RAWMI for Listing and has neared the end of the process. However, the overall risk of raw milk consumption has been grossly overstated and used as a market scare tool in an attempt to protect pasteurized milk markets.
We are now in a brave new world of low risk raw milk. Today’s expectations are that raw milk should be low risk and can be low risk. This takes training and standards.
Ignorance or over confidence does not fit with the model for the future of responsibly produced raw milk. RAWMI data really shows this plan and standards to be effective. A track record has been established.
So I am assuming that the Maryland’s raw milk herdshare bill had the RAWMI safety standards listed in the bill as the expectations for new herdshare owners to follow? Is that correct?
It is just like Tennessee. There is no provisions for safety standards. Anyone interested in getting into the herdshare business can do so. How are they to know how to produce the low risk raw milk you refer to? This sounds like a raw milk outbreak waiting to happen.
Regulatory intrusion in the apiary industry is second to none. The regulators narrow focus on eradicating disease and pests via the use of antibiotics and mass eradication (their terms of war) has weakened overall immunity within bee colonies and has caused a great deal of grief among apiarists.
As well the persistent use of government-regulated protocols that sanction toxic chemicals, drugs and novel technologies (GMOs) in the honeybees overall environment adds to the dilemma.
With respect to the documentary Queen of the Sun the following article states, (Ive added microbes in parenthesis for a little perspective), it explores the ancient relationship between man and bees (microbes)a relationship that, historically, was considered nothing less than sacred. Returning to life in balance with nature is the ultimate solution, and when it comes to bees (microbes), it’s something we’ll have to do lest we risk perishing right along with them.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/01/25/queen-of-the-sun-documentary.aspx
What ever happened to Beelogics gene silencing vaccine that was developed in 2008 to supposedly combat colony collapse disorder?
Nature is biting back, and whats happening to bee populations is a reflection of a growing systemic problem within society. Just like raw milk bees did just fine until humans arrogantly started tampering with their internal and external environments using vaccines, drugs, chemical, GMOs and mass killings all in the name of greater productivity and the regulators so-called germ focused perception of good health.
Man did not weave the web of life, he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself. Chief Seattle
Ken
Here are a couple of fascinating facts to ponder. Maryland is awash in raw milk. Buyers clubs, coops etc….bring it from other states. According to official Maryland data, there have no reported illnesses from raw milk. This was shared at in the hearings.
There was a bill that prescribed intensive testing, heavy regulation, regulator inspections, etc….there were heavy standards in the proposed bill. This bill died fast and never left the Health Committee. My point is that, it does not matter whether a Maryland bill is a Hands off Cow Share, or an intensive oversight bill, they all die. Sally was supportive of both bills ( from what I understand and I do not think it is appriate that I speak for her anyway ).
Mary, you are correct, the current bill does not include any standards. There are however, plenty of resources to help any Cow Shares with standards. The societal penalty for raw milk illnesses is pretty serious. Bill Marler has dilligently addressed this side of liability and responsibility. Consumers are beginning to ask hard questions of farmers and this helps also.
While I do agree that RAWMI data and 2 year tract record is a theory. However, the RAWMI Listed data is backed by hundreds of tests, including highly sensitive milk filter tests and five producers using similar written safety plans. This data has been reviewed by a state of CA certified PhD epidemiologist. It is clear that the consistency of the test data is very controlled. That means one thing…future events and testing WILL closely match past events and testing results if the plans are followed!!!
The track record of commercial aviation follows this same accident curve. In the 1920s commercial airline airplanes crashed all the time killing many. Today years pass with hundreds of thousands of fligts with zero deaths. Why???? Well, it is training, standards, inspections, the experience of years of testing, accident investigation with applied research. Technology has also helped a lot.
But in the end…humans leave earth into the air and safely go quickly to another place on earth and land and return all the time. A plan is used to achieve this task. It is far from random. Raw milk is very much on a similar track.
Raw milk illnesses and outbreaks that have been officially investigated always (and I will say with rare exception ) have always come from farmers that have high bacteria counts for some reason or a problem with conditions. They just do not happen on farms that have good numbers and reasonable conditions. ( exceptions accepted there is no such thing as perfect or always ).
Dr. Cat is preparing to intensively review, and study the RAWMI data. His study will be peer reviewed and published. Each month more data mounds up and it is impressively consistent and excellent!!
Raw milk is easier produce safely than the care required to build and safely fly massive powerful commercial aircraft for the people of the world. Safe low risk raw milk is possible!! We are all watching it happen right now. The more we teach and share good standards the faster this curve will become reality for all of us.
Cow Shares are kind of like ultralight aircraft. Unregulated, mostly untested and flown by a broad range of pilots. Some very well trained some knot trained much at all. Few standards or expectations with 99% hands off from government. The outcomes and data from ultra light aircraft flights and operations reflect abroad range of risk profiles from very safe to down right tragic. Ultralight passengers know and sit right next to their pilots and accept the risk.
Retail raw milk is much like the scheduled airlines. You do not know your pilot but you trust that the FAA does. You can not see the rivets or the maintenance records…but you trust that the FAA does.
Both of these modes of flight get you into the air…both can be very safe. But….it all depends on the pilots and the systems in place.
We have examples of risk all through our lives…why is it that raw milk is not comparable with the rest of our lives and all the things we do.
Perhaps it is because raw milk was one if the first commercial ( bought and sold ) foods in America. It has been fought over for 400 years. It is money and those that control the milk…control the markets!!!
All about the money!!! Clear simple and true.
Maryland is awash in raw milk. Buyers clubs, coops etc….bring it from other states?
In other words these raw milk consumers are defying the FDAs terms of war. They realize that the FDA is motivated by a corporate agenda that cares little about their safety and have thus chosen toi take matters into their own hands. Good for them!
Dont get me wrong. Your efforts via RAWMI to produce clean raw milk is definitely an asset to the raw milk movement, in that it will hopefully, gradually break down societys paranoia with respect to microorganisms and will help to increase their desire to defy the FDAs terms of war.
Ken
we had bees here on the homestead from 1975- 1992… a couple of rank beginners, still, we couldn’t go wrong. But after Burnaby was doused from on-high with the so-called “Gypsy Moth spray”, the bees never prospered. It is crucial we set up bee sanctuaries, in remote locations, to preserve heritage strains from Dr Franken-Stein and his ilk, and their ancient attempt to create the Golem, ie man in their own image / as part of perverting God’s handiwork, into the Monsanto scenario
[When] Wednesday, 5 February 2014
[Time] 10:30 in EST
[Where] Ontario Court of Appeal, 130 Queen Street West in Toronto
[Description]
“At the Court of Appeal of Ontario on February 5, Durham raw milk advocate Michael Schmidt will seek to overturn his 2006 convictions for distribution and sale of raw milk. Please come out and support Michael’s fight for YOUR right to obtain fresh, whole, unpasteurized milk!
“On twitter? Please tweet this event! #rawmilk #MichaelSchmidt #slowfood #charterofrights
“Everyone coming please bring your own raw milk in the form of hot chocolate or cold milk. Whatever suits you. Remember that it is NOT illegal to consume or have in your possession raw milk. It is only illegal if you distribute it. So we can all bring our own milk from home and drink it on the court house steps in toast to Michael Schmidt and his long battle on our behalf.”
I reckon I don’t quite know how to ask the question I want answered. Basically it is curiousness. What is it that monsanto really wants to have happen?
A regulated, inspected herdshare is not a herdshare. It is a dairy.
A herdshare, but its very nature, is unregulated. It is based on private ownership, private association, and private contract, all rights protected by our Constitution, assuming anyone cares anymore. If people wish to cooperate to own livestock and cooperatively benefit from their production, and voluntarily bear the personal responsibility of their actions, they should be able to do so without asking permission of the government.
The fact that herdshares are illegal in some states, or even formally legal in others is absurd. The state should have nothing to say about herdshares. When is does, like in TN, legalize herdshares, it has essentially legalized a type of dairy but then absolved itself from any responsibility to provide training, standards, information, oversight, etc.
That said, the reason we have so many herdshares organizing all over the country is not necessarily because people are suddenly keen on the idea of cow-ownership (although some are). Rather it is because the herdshare has become a solution to oppressive dairy laws….laws that either outright ban the sale of raw milk, or regulations that are unscalable to small producers.
In CA, we have so many herdshares not because everyone in CA wants to own cows and goats. Rather, people form herdshares because it is economically impossible for a farmer with less than 10 cows (or even really less than a couple hundred) to build a facility that will qualify for licensing.
My opinion: quit asking the state to regulate herdshares. It violates peoples constitutional rights and will only end up in big ugly court battles, and will do little to improve safety.
Rather, fix the dairy laws. Focus on giving producers of all sizes, in all states, the ability to legally produce raw milk under appropriate safety standards and with good training through state licensing. If producers had the ability to reasonably obtain a license, wed have a lot less unregulated herdshares. And consumers would have better options.
I have some great ideas about how that could work in California. If anyone at the CDFA wants to brainstorm with me, I make an excellent cup of coffee and would love to chat!
In the meantime, we do have herdshares and lots of them.
If the goal is a net reduction in raw milk related outbreaks in the short term from herdshares, family cows, and dairies, I suggest collaborative effort and resource sharing between WAPF, RAWMI, FTCLDF, the FDA, Mr. Bill Marler, State Ag Extensions, Regional Food Safety Centers, etc., to provide an onslaught of information and training to promote voluntary standards for raw milk producers and consumers.
I think RAWMI has only scratched the surface of this potential. If 60 herdshare operators in rural Northern California will VOLUNTARILY devote an entire weekday to training, and will log in to live webinars, they will do it in other places as well.
Can anyone confirm a rumor that one of our delivery drivers shared with me yesterday? Claravale Dairy has let it be known that they will no longer be selling their raw milk and raw dairy products in retail stores. They will continue to sell to closed buyers clubs etc…but not in stores.
Claravale does not answer emails and generally does not answer their phone either. This means one of two things to me:
They are doing well selling to buyers clubs and do not need the hassle and cost of retail distribution or the owners are looking at retirement? OPDC has always appreciated Clarvale as a very ld American raw milk brand. Their loss in the market place is not good. Markets need more than just one brand. Markets need many pillars of support. I will add however, that OP is certified organic and sells at an average of $16 per gallon at retail. Claravale is not certified organic and has the ability to buy feeds at 30-40% cheaper cost and sells on the retail shelf at about $24-28 per gallon ( do the math $5.50-6.50 per quart and add a glass deposit of $1.50 to that ).
Anyone heard this in the street?
And contrary to popular belief, OPDC is not actually able to quench the raw milk thirst of the entire population of CA, so other sources are needed.
And it goes both ways. Some people buy OPDC milk rather than join our herdshare. Boths models have unique costs and benefits. In general, people appreciate choice.
Mary, I think you are confused because you are asking the wrong question. As Mark McAfee points out, MD has turned down proposals that include tight raw dairy regulation, as well as herdshares, with no regulation. I’m not aware of a state in the country, with or without regulations, that has extension programs (i.e. education) for owners of raw dairies. The question I would pose is this: Is there a set of raw milk regulations in a particular state that you support, that you might hold up as a model of what might be appropriate for states like MD or TN?
I do agree that there is a history of blaming raw milk very early during investigations and also bias. There is no question about this….but remember this is a study of ducks. If we want to stop being called a duck….stop quacking, and swimming and get rid of those feathers. If we are not a target, no more duck hunting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCK2mflwESM
I’m just talking about bare minimum regulations that are required in many states that sell raw milk: warning label, monthly testing, and inspections. This is better than nothing at all. As I’ve stated before, how would university extension programs be experts about raw milk production? They might be experts about pathogens and how they act/survive, but how could they know all the intricacies of raw milk production? I think this is virgin territory.
Ken
When there are no outbreaks or illnesses this entire subject is a mute point….that is my point!! Whether….Causation or Epidemeologic avoid them both. Been there….been hit over the head with it.
Avoid all forms of this entire ugly car wreck!!
The how, the where and the why of raw milk illness is not completely understood, but we have very good science on how to reduce the risks of potential illness.
For instance we know that CAFO type conditions with dark wet conditions and antibiotic abused animals that never get into sunlight or pastures are associated with Grade A raw milk that is used for pasteurization. The FDA and Universities cite study upon study of how raw milk from these milk tanks have pathogens and very frequently. No disputing that fact.
However, change the conditions and pathogen populations and the odds of finding them drops like a rock. RAWMI data shows this to be true, so does the data from the German raw milk producers under the vorzugsmilch programs. 40 years of excellence and illnesses.
Remember a pathogen must be present to cause illness. That coupled with a susceptible host and a load of bad bugs that is high enough…and someone gets sick.
For me this is common sense and is the foundation of a solid raw milk program.
To resist these basics is to invite disaster.
What does matching pathogen in someones ( or group of peoples )fecal sample with the exact same pathogen DNA print in your raw milk or in your cows fecal sample prove? This is again a Non Sequitur.
Even if you could prove one or even two cases, that wouldn’t be an outbreak. That wouldn’t even prove that the raw milk hadn’t prevented thousands of cases in that one herd-share alone.
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potential illness? You mean potential diarrhea, and weren’t we talking about actual illness not potential illness?
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very good science? Why not just name the study?
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We’re not really talking about CAFO type conditions but wheres the evidence that even CAFO type conditions can cause human diarrhea in raw milk consumers?
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Remember a pathogen must be present to cause illness. That coupled with a susceptible host Non Sequitur AND presence doesn’t prove cause. If they are susceptible maybe they need more raw milk.
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a load of bad bugs that is high enough What’s the minimum infectious dose?
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…and someone gets sick. the average American gets diarrhea three times a year and you’re not going to know the cause with only epidemiologic evidence.
common sense is not very good science It’s anecdotal.
Ken
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raw milk illness is an oxymoron.
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How can we have very good science on how to reduce the risk if The how, the where and the why are not completely understood.
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In 8 years on the internet and a couple days at the Hershberger trial this electrician has never seen or heard any this very good science from the state, but he has seen and heard The how, the where and the why of raw milk illness.
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With a paper and pencil and a little 5th grade math it becomes very simple. If you’re not good at math then just listen carefully to what the state does and does not say, without reading anything into it.
And David, this argument is not about our rights, or the law, what’s right or wrong, or what’s the best course of action or anything like that. It’s about people who want raw milk for the masses, stipulating to the competition’s propaganda. It may be difficult to produce good raw milk but there is no reason to believe it’s difficult to produce safe raw milk and that actually is, a proven fact.
Does anyone know of another forum/blog where raw milk is discussed?
A great article (short, but read it all) by Baylen Linnekin. He nails it but there appears to be nothing John Q. Public can do about it. Imagine that.
http://reason.com/archives/2014/02/01/this-farm-bill-stinks
Pasteurization is a 100% guarantee of safety for sure!!
A person can be taken to a higher level of consciousness from something as seemingly banal as a glass of nice cold whole milk. See Aldous Huxley’s wonderful little essay “the cat with the green eyes” .
which is why this movement poses a profound threat to the entire commercial system : it provokes people to think for themselves.
If there’s one thing the anti-christ collectivists cannot tolerate, it’s an individual feeling the joy of life energy flowing through him. Someone so-exhilarated at the very cellular level thereafter rejects the claims of the controllers = that they are all-knowing / that they are all-powerful. A picture says 1000 words : I wish I could post here the photo I took of little Fraser Health apparatchik, Rod Asplin, gloating, telling me we wouldnt be getting our milk back. Hundreds of gallons of our property – perfectly good food – went down the sewer. NOT because it was any actual threat to the public health, but because mindless morons – entrained on the wrong side of the battle of Life-against-Death – choose to let someone else do their thinking for them. Rest in Peace, Wilhelm Reich.
To someone who inquires about the link between raw milk and disease, I always start off saying yes, people do get sick from drinking raw milk, but its extremely rare. That isnt stipulating to the competitions propaganda its a plain statement of fact. Another part of the larger reality is : theyve got the guns. Meaning, we have to defer to the controllers while were outgunned. But if I know one thing fer sure after 30 years political activism, its that = The Pen is Mightier than the Sword. So forget the revenge fantasy of an armed standoff. Forget going to court, too, unless youre dragged in there.
All that aside = the really good news is : in England, govt. policy to do with raw milk for human consumption is being re-considered WITH input from anyone whom it impacts. On 191 pages at the link raw milk consultation, the Food Safety Agency has set out the terms of reference for analysing risk of harms from raw milk consumption. The upshot will be what Ive been demanding since Day One from the opponents to REAL MILK where are your actuarial tables?!
Dung deal sounds about right D, sometimes you make me laugh more than even I do.
“Does anyone know of another forum/blog where raw milk is discussed?”
No, you can’t go anywhere until we vote on it and say you can. Relax and sip up.
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http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/14416-can-we-discuss-raw-milk-i-want-to-learn-more-about-this-how/
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http://curezone.org/forums/f.asp?f=783
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You say I always start off saying yes, people do get sick from drinking raw milk, but its extremely rare. That is stipulating to the competitions propaganda. If its a plain statement of fact. Give one example of a proven case or even a likely case and what about all the cases it prevents? How can you say raw milk is causing diarrhea if a group of 900 raw milk consumers have only 9 cases when their pasteurized milk drinking neighbors have 280 per 900 per month?
If they insist that raw milk is inherently dangerous, do to unavoidable contamination from pathogens, then they must determine a minimum infectious dose for those pathogens when consumed in raw milk.
I’m totally with you on the notion that ultimate opponents to REAL MILK are the medical mafia. Harkening to the experiences of men who were destroyed for being too far ahead of the herd. After we get REAL MILK de-criminalized here, I think I can get ‘immune milk’ underway without being gaoled/ ruined, like Reich, Rife, Dr William Donald Kelley, and so many others.
As for actual cases : You’ve muddled the issue by confusing 2 questions. How sick is “sick”, before you’d accept an example as proof? I know this is not what you’re after, but = People do get the runs from raw milk in the springtime … does that count? In BC. not long ago, a couple was staying at the Aerie Resort on Vancouver Island. The woman ate a cheese made from raw milk, which had been properly aged over 60 days, then got very ill and miscarried her baby. It was determined as a fact that the cheese was tainted with listeria. Do you count that unborn child count as a ‘fatality’? The coroner did.
as for the “minimum infectious dose” : the poisonous affect of a substance can vary over a given population. For instance, with insecticides, I think it’s called LD 50 (or something) which will kill 50% of the population. I recall that our instructor in the Bee Masters course, said, of poisons ; “some individuals are found still happily swimming in the stuff, unaffected”. Point being, with animals and with humans, immunity varies greatly.
I say coconut or bananas, berries of all kinds and grapes even, better than wine. Eat what you are and vice versa. Avoid sugar especially the processed stuff.
btw D, another forum I like to visit on a regular basis for info and found from someone here is http://www.hawkeshealth.net/community/forum.php
I like your icon, it’s abstract yet concrete. I’m not a fee thinker, I charge but not in dollar terms.
Before we get to that it must be pointed out that;
1. Cheese is not milk.
2. Raw milk cheese is not really raw.
3. Can listeria survive in cheese aged over 60 days?
4. Any food can be contaminated during preparation in a restaurant.
5. Not all complications are a result of the initial affliction.
6. Proof of contamination is not proof of cause.
neither constipation nor diarrhea can cause a miscarriage. http://miscarriage.about.com/od/miscarriagecauses/f/Can-Constipation-Or-Diarrhea-Cause-Miscarriage.htm
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While women may face severe diarrhea before miscarriage, it may not necessarily be the direct cause.
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Diarrhea is known to commonly occur during pregnancy due to a variety of factors. The most common causes include hormonal changes, lactose intolerance, dietary changes or reactions to certain foods during the pregnancy.
http://www.pregnancy-baby-care.com/pregnancy-miscarriage/miscarriage-diarrhea.html#continued
In some cases, diarrhea occurs because of stress, drugs like statins, drinking too much coffee,
http://womenshealth.answers.com/pregnancy-and-childbirth/can-diarrhea-cause-a-miscarriage
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Chromosomal problems usually result in a blighted ovum wherein the placenta begins to develop but there is no embryo inside it due to failure in development.
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Structural defects of the embryo can also hamper its development and lead to a miscarriage. In many cases, however, the exact cause of the miscarriage remains unknown.
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Around 15% to 20% of all the pregnancies result in a miscarriage in the first 12 weeks.
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Lack of adequate nutrients could be one of the causes of miscarriage at any stage of the pregnancy.
http://www.pregnancy-baby-care.com/pregnancy-miscarriage/miscarriage-diarrhea.html#continued
I recommend you call Southern Vancouver Island Health Authority, ask them for what’s available to the public, concerning the incident of food poisoning from raw milk cheese, at the Aerie Resort, in Mill Bay BC. about 6 years ago. They’ll tell you that the cheese tested positive for listeria. Also, that the mother’s blood had listeria in it
Is it not telling that the Coroner’s Act RSBC, compeled a formal inquiry into the death of that child in the womb? this society concerns itself with the death of one child who died after his mother was poisoned, yet every business day in Ham-merica, ~4000 babies in the same situation, are put to death on purpose. Yesterday the news was that infamous abortionist Garson Romalis has died … of course the reporter dare not tell the truth, rather, she said he provided “abortion care”! ‘One death is a tragedy … thousands of similar deaths is a statistic’. Artificial abortion is murder : Aldous Huxley said “Facts which are ignored do not cease to exist”
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Proof of contamination is not proof of cause.
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Gordon, you and I should have many of the same pre-supposition filters but if you grew up on raw milk you will not have seen the dramatic changes that I have.
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Before switching to raw milk, like most Americans I had diarrhea about 3 times a year. After switching to raw milk, I went 5 years before a bout of norovirus hit our house. So like many raw milk consumers, I have my own proof that raw milk prevents the very illness it is said to cause.
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Knowing that raw milk prevents the very illness it is said to cause. We then can assume our government doesn’t use what you call genuine scientists.
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A little science:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2621056/
Listeriosis in Pregnancy: Diagnosis, Treatment, and Prevention
Listeria monocytogenes is a common organism in nature and can be easily isolated from soil, dust, water. Outbreaks of listeriosis are more common in the summer.
The incubation period forListeria has not been well established; according to case reports, the incubation period is from 24 hours to 70 days.
Although severe maternal illness from listeriosis has been reported, it is rare. In most cases, maternal illness is mild and sometimes even asymptomatic.
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Cell-mediated immunity is the hosts defense against Listeria, and any condition that reduces cell-mediated Immunity, such as pregnancy, can predispose to listerial infection. Patients with comorbidities, such as a history of splenectomy, human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection, steroid use, diabetes, or use of immunosuppressive medications, are at increased risk for listerial infection1 due to a decrease in cell-mediated immunity. As expected, pregnant women who are immunosuppressed or using corticosteroids are at higher risk of listeriosis than the general pregnant population. In patients with comorbidities, listerial infection can cause severe maternal illness, usually by spreading to the central nervous system (CNS).
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3593057/
Listeriosis in Human Pregnancy: a systematic review
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Since the 1960s, and following the introduction and widespread use of processed foods listeriosis due to Listeria monocytogenes has become more widespread.
Listeria can be detected in the feces of nearly 70% of healthy non-pregnant individuals and 44% of pregnant women [75]. Single samples of feces during pregnancy (with careful attention to culture techniques) have a 12% culture positive rate. Listeriosis is 18 times more common in pregnancy (12/100,000) than in the non-pregnant population. The largest reported epidemic occurred in 1985 in Los Angeles, California, USA. Of 142 reported cases of listeriosis, 65.5% occurred in pregnant women
Listeriosis occurs mainly in the third trimester, perhaps due to deficient cell mediated immunity.
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The association with recurrent abortion has been reported in a series of cases in which Listeria was cultured from the cervix.
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Though vaginal colonization is rare, nearly half of asymptomatic mothers of infants born with neonatal listeriosis will have a positive vaginal culture for L. monocytogenes
Most cases of listeriosis are sporadic and not associated with an outbreak. Most sporadic cases, as well as all large outbreaks, are due to manufactured foods, particularly ready-to-eat meats (especially hot dogs).
They didn’t specify whether, when mentioning dairy products, they were talking solely about raw dairy or whether they were talking solely about pasteurized dairy when they referred to “illness” and “sickness”, or if they were referring to both kinds (read: all dairy). However, they had a live calf at the school for a lesson about dairy farming.
http://hotair.com/archives/2014/02/06/video-peta-terrifies-small-children-with-comic-book-depicting-mutilated-cows/
** I could not get the video to work, and in a paragraph down towards the bottom there is an embedded link that takes you to the pdf of the comic online, but that didn’t work well, either. Nevertheless, just reading the article was sufficient information.