Edward Smith being sworn in as a U.S. District Court judge in 2014. (From Lehighvalleylive.com)
At one point at Tuesday’s three-hour hearing about whether agents should be allowed to inspect Amos Miller’s Pennsylvania farm, federal judge Edward Smith made this pronouncement: “Government is at its best when it is sensitive to the people’s needs.”
At another point, the judge, an appointee of President Obama, who has been a U.S. District Court judge for just two years, looked out over the crowd of about 20 Miller supporters in attendance, and said, “Obviously, this is something that is important to a lot of people.”
An inspection official with the U.S. Department of Agriculture, testified the agency has “no desire to close” Miller’s Organic Farm. The official, Troy Hambright, added in response to a question that the federal case against Miller “is not a criminal case.”
A USDA inspector, Paul Flanagan, said he wasn’t necessarily seeking to make problems for Miller, but rather to “educate him about safety.”
After all the soothing talk, Judge Smith surprised many of those in attendance when he concluded the hearing by granting the USDA’s request to carry out an inspection of Miller’s facilities; Miller had on two occasions refused to allow inspectors to carry out an inspection, unless they joined his private association, which they refused to do.
Helping convince Judge Smith was a team of at least three lawyers, including from the USDA, the FDA, and the U.S. Justice Department. A lawyer from the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture was also understood to be present; because the lawyers didn’t all identify themselves during the proceedings, it wasn’t always clear who was who.
Amos Miller acted as his own lawyer, questioning witnesses and the judge. Judge Smith patiently answered Miller’s questions, though he warned the farmer that statements he made in court “could be used against you” in the future.
Inspector Flanagan testified during the hearing that he would be seeking Miller’s sanitation records, veterinary records about animals’ health, information about the cleanliness of the water supply, and pest control records affecting the animals, among other things.
Government attorneys questioning the inspectors and two members of Miller’s private association made clear they saw no distinction between a private association and the public. “Private is public,” said Flanagan.
The inspectors talked about their concerns about the dangers of listeria and possible “cross contamination” between raw milk and meat products distributed by Miller. Judge Smith, however, repeatedly warned all witnesses that the hearing “is not about raw milk,” but rather about meat laws.
One of Miller’s witnesses, a Pennsylvania mother of nine and a member of Miller’s private association, said two of her children are autistic, and have benefited significantly from raw milk consumption. But a government lawyer from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration focused on the fact that the woman had ordered milk from Miller while she was living in Florida before moving to Pennsylvania. That, the lawyer indicated, suggested Miller was violating prohibitions on shipping raw milk across state lines.
This witness, along with a second association member, said it was up to the members to regulate Miller, not the government.
It’s not clear when the USDA agents will begin their inspection of Miller’s farm, but presumably it will happen very soon, given the effort they went through to gain inspection authority.
(Information for this post came from several attendees at the hearing, who didn’t want to be identified.)
This is the crux of the problem with the usda, fda and other abc regulatory agencies. They are perhaps needed for commercial exchanges where nobody is accountable because you can’t identify the source of the food or the cause of illness that comes from a lack of respect for it. The answer to this challenge of property rights – member owners have access to their property and outsiders (those that plan interference of any food source that does not already comply to their “standards”) DO NOT have access! Given that the mediocre food system that we have in this country has such a poor track record of solving problems within their inspected “controlled” system, they ought not be messing with a private food supply that has something that they can’t legislate – that is the give-a-shit factor! You can’t pay somebody enough to care – if that is the only purpo$e for their work:)
“Government is at its best when it is sensitive to the people’s needs.” This comment for a district court judge needs an update. “It is only when government is sensitive to people’s needs that it has a purpose”. In this case, the people need no help, certainly no interference with a working system. If it ain’t broken? This case is all about raw milk and with a statement like “private is public”, the opinion of an employee of the very regulatory body that is bringing this conflict of interest case, the only resolve here – will be a higher court, with a bigger audience, and media focused on the absolute right of privacy and property rights, the right to commit to our own health. Period
“Educate him about safety”???
Their so-called education as to food safety is little more then an exercise in hypocrisy and elaborate fear mongering in action. Indeed bullies who in the name of “food safety” harass young enterprising children who set up lemonade stands.
I agree with the witness, it’s up to the members to regulate Miller, not stereotyped, biased, egocentric, and power hungry government regulators.
Govt is best when it serves the people’s needs. WE don’t need to have the farm inspected.
WE the people – ALL have inherent, inalienable rights and freedoms. The Govt has ZERO rights and freedoms. It has begrudgingly been granted (only) THIRTY, LEGITIMATE POWERS listed as the ennumerated powers.
The govt (fed) LITERALLY HAS NO RIGHT TO MAKE ANY LAW IN ANY AREA OF LIFE NOT SPECIFICALLY AND CLEARLY GRANTED TO THEM IN THE CONSTITUTION and furthermore, ALL LEGISLATION MADE BEYOND THESE ARENAS ARE NULL AND VOID.
Tnomas Jefferson stated that not only are such unconstitutional laws (anything not in compliance w/the constitution on city, county, state, or fed level) “pretend” and “imaginary” but it is not just an option – but DUTY TO DISOBEY THESE “LAWS”!!!
This is really sad, indeed! One problem I see coming now that the “abc agencies” have gained a foothold regarding “inspections” of this farmer’s operations is that Miller most likely will NOT have all his “documentary ducks” in a row to show them to the inspectors…and IF he does I’ll bet $’s that they won’t be presented on the correct “forms.” This farmer is in serious danger now of losing everything on technicalities…mark my suspicions.
I concur with Alvan and brad above, and I have only one naive question to ask…where is the local Sheriff in all these matters??? I guess, Mr. Miller doesn’t have a local constitutional Sheriff, and if he did/does it’s because he’s Amish that they don’t have any kind of relationship with local police authority? If he now becomes constantly harassed with inspections in his future…I’d be looking into the local Sheriff and find out where they stand on standing up for their citizens. And his private members…they need to be well organized! If they want to keep Mr. Miller in business…they need to be there for him now BIG TIME!
where’s the local sheriff?, you ask. He’s sitting in his office with his feet up, because the local Amish congregations told him he wasn’t welcome on their private compound, nigh-on a century ago. The Sword which beareth Rule, cuts both ways.
… How droll that commenters on this forum criticize Mark McAffee’s operation, when he’s as transparent as can possibly be, playing by the Rulebook officialdom handed him, but Mr Miller gets a pass because of his peculiar marketing schtick. The Supreme Court of the US pronounced that we’re not allowed to gainsay the sincerity of a religious conviction, so I guess you just have to take Amos’ word for it = that all is in order. Which would be fine … except now he’s inviting me and the Campaign for REAL MILK, generally, to sympathize with him and send him $$ to maintain the hedge of protection against inspection. Most likely, the Miller consortium of affiliated producers, has a gross handle of millions of $ per annum. They cannot have it both ways = pleading ‘privacy’ meanwhile availing demselves of the commercial facilities /shipping via FedEx.
Don’t think Amos Miller has asked you, or anyone else, for contributions. I’m not sure what he’s done about the local sheriff. I do know that when another Amish farmer, David Hochstetler of Indiana, got into some trouble with the FDA a few years ago, his local sheriff came to his aid, and was recipient of a special award from a sheriffs group.
http://www.davidgumpert.com/hows-this-for-a-change-of-pace-sheriff-who-challenged-feds-for-amish-raw-dairy-farmer-receives-award-for-meritorious-valor-ca-sheriff-vows-to-protect-herdshares
Members of Amos’ private association may at some point seek contributions for a legal defense, but don’t worry, Gordon, we won’t ask you for any help.
I recommend you go back and read the posts in your blog, Mr Gumpert. My guess is that – even whilst he uses any and every technology that suits him and his COMMERCIAL ENTERPRISE(S) – Amos Miller does not sit down at a computer keyboard because ( and I’m guessing here, 2000 miles from the scene ] the Eldership of his clan put a taboo on that particular item. So Amish Amos (copyright that brand! ) won’t be responding in personam to my satire. But his sympathizers don’t hesitate to use emotional extortion to wring $$ out of the Campaign for REAL MILK. For what? He took in serious amounts of $$ for years. Where did alla that go?
… discussion of this recent issue is worthwhile, for making the contrast between the way Organic Pastures is held to the very highest standards of accountability in its multi-million $ per annum business ( and that’s as it should be) versus the “pass” that the Amish get because … well, why is that … pray tell?
… it’s my calling to be the guy who im-politely ( in these circles ) demands similar treatment for the business practices of Mr Miller’s consortium.
… years ago, a friend of mine visited a community of Mennonites ( not Amish) in Manitoba. I asked him “do they still speak German?” He quipped “they think they do” Same with the Ammish and their peculiar version of Christianity, now 4 centuries after Menno Simon. Nice people, sure. but they want it both ways : to hide out in their own compound when it suits, yet now pander for $$ to fend off the Beast. Tell you what, Amish-volk. You start contributing to the tax base same as everyone else, and I’ll consider how needy you-all are. See the US Supreme Court case of Lee 1961
It amuses me when the sympathy card is played because “oh those Amish, their doctrines are so quaint” And that’s OK, but when I mention incidentally one of the core doctrines of Christian Identity … ie. that blue-eyed blond-haired people ought not to practice misogeny … oh well! we can’t have THAT on this forum!!
People who love you will tell you the Truth. Hopefully one of his supporters will convey to him my opinion = he’s not in the bucolic Amish countryside, anymore … accepting the currency of the anti-christ Beast system, he crossed over into the territory of dog-eat-dog world ruled by the god, Mercury, ie. commerce. If Amos Miller et al. cannot stand the heat, they’d better get out of the kitchen.
He doesn’t deserve sympathy because he made some money and operated outside his click? Nobody should have to “contribute” to the tax base as far as I’m concerned. The less who feed that evil the better. Screw the government and screw government supporters even more.
@ Gordon: The Amish do not spurn local, or any, guvmint officials. Where did you get that idea? They are, as David points out, pacifists and they do not look for trouble. They do not look for engagement in trouble, I should say. You are blowing things way out of proportion.
I don’t know why you seem to hate Amish people and their “ways” so much but I’ve grown weary of your tirades here about their way of life. They must accept money in all the same methods other american businesses do because they live & work in america, whereas you do not. You can rant all you want to about their advertising methods (i.e. using an Amish buggy as a logo – as if that’s wrong (?) – or whatever it is that bugs you) but it won’t change the way things are being done in many States which support the Amish people, their produce and their other goods for sale. If people outside the Amish communities didn’t want these things, they wouldn’t be buying them and the Amish wouldn’t have any business to worry about. They’re entitled to make a living for their communities and their families, just like anyone else. I’d rethink that idea of yours where you seem to equate them to hypocrites if I were you. Stop being so selfish with what little money is left circulating in America as though it belongs only to the select few who emulate following all the “guvmint rules” but turn in their fellow raw milk producers. Talk about hypocritical and full of pure jealousy!
D Smith : your petulance is a perfect example of why the nation is in such trouble. Go do your homework, starting with the Currency Act of 1792, which defined the bimetallic system on which the Republic founded its system of real money = predicated in silver and gold.
… then read what I ACTUALLY wrote about Mr Miller, rather than what came through your filter of prejudice. I do sneer at the advertising schtick used by Amish Amos’ consortium, because when the Federales nail his hide to the wall as a trophy, the Campaign for REAL MILK will suffer bad publicity accordingly.
… something you could do, to add intelligent comment to this thread – D Smith – is, go back to where it started …. In-Famous Amos rolling-in to the Weston A Price convention, knowingly breaking the law several different ways, bringing down the heat. the Amish are big on law keeping, so perhaps explain to all-concerned how that episode of sheer opportunism, disregarding others, gyves the Biblical admonition to “Fear God. Honor the King” ? My ultimate point which you ignore, being “as they traded-away their heritage for hands full of IOUs based in usury [ the debt instruments of the Federal Reserve ] which King are the Amish serving?” A place to start your REAL education, is : listen to what George Gordon was saying, about these issues, nigh-on 20 years ago.
@ Gordon: I’ve been reading @ David’s blog for a long time and I know exactly what happened at the WAPF convention. You need to stop thinking you know the answers to everything (no wonder you lost in court so many times). Once you get the attitude that you’re always right and everyone else is stupid, you’re in big trouble. Personally, I usually don’t even read your comments, but since you’ve been attacking more and more people all the time, I’ve recently read a few. Now I know why I avoid your comments. You’ve chased a lot of people away from David’s blog, as far as commenting, with your superior attitude. Did you actually attend the WAPF convention? If not, you’re running on hearsay just like the rest of us.
Your hateful words show me how little you practice what you preach.
amusing that the usual “reply” button is not an option to D. Smith’s latest cheap shot at me. Suffice to say that he avoids dealing with the logical point : the crux of what I’m on-about = Amish doctrinal hypocrisy re: use of the currency of Babylon, versus their Ordnung / religious tenets to do with taboos on other technologies
… ‘hearsay” ? Of course, I ‘m the first to acknowledge I’m basing my opinion on what is available via the internet, this website in particular. You have more info ? Great = post it. Start with the names on the land title for the Miller Farm. And the bank where he cashes the cheques from customers. The clincher will be : evidence of Miller et co. paying a common carrier to transport products to end-users. Or would you like us to believe that Amish Amos © has a fleet of 19th century horse&buggies delivering to customers 1000 miles yonder? If you won’t present those simple facts, why not?
… your vitriol, D. Smith exemplifies what always happens when I tire of a tale of woe told by bleeding-heart types, simpering about some pet being treated un-justly. When I stoke-up the keyboard and Bar-B-Que a sacred cow, inevitably someone in the peanut gallery yelps at me for using “hateful words”.
… At our Court hearing in 2010, Alice Jongerden closed her submission with precisely what the issue really is : “When did private become public?” Madame Justice Gropper never did answer it. Address that, and leave off the ad hominem attack
let’s start with the paperwork ; someone who supporters Amos Miller would do all-concerned a favour, by posting a link to the scanned image of the Court Order. Second : let’s see the land title file of who owns the real estate at 648 Millcreek School Road in Bird-in-Hand, PA. Why ? because whoever’s name is on that piece of paper, has status to dispute the Warrant to Search. Since the practice of many = even, Most = closed religious cults, which is what the Amish are = is to have the land proper held in the name of a corporate body created originated by the State, then inquiring minds want to know who = exactly = Third, would be the account number at the financial institution through which all the transactions were made. Or would you like me to accept that one lone individual = Amish Amos Biblical foodstuffs &cet. Consortium © handled millions of paperdollar$ out of his back-pocket?
and for the hard-of-thinking on this forum : by that above, I mean = if the Amos Miller’s not-so-private enterprise participated in the accounts of a federally-licenced bank = WHICH THEY MUST HAVE, IN ORDER TO GET PAID BY CUSTOMERS A 1000 MILES AWAY = then : I rest my case. All pretence of operating other-than in commerce, is ridiculous
… the Miller thing is not about the quality of the foodstuffs. It’s about a bunch of children who thought they had a cute disguise for breaking the law, then got too big for their Amish britches. They didn’t listen to Mark McAffee’s warning at the Weston A Price convention, now they’re learning that “a word to the wise is sufficient, but the backs of fools are made for stripes”. What I want to see, is, if one or some of the Eldership who condoned what was going on, can muster the testicular wherewithal to admit they erred.
Mr. Flanagan, where do you get off saying that “Private is public.”?
What a self-serving, overreaching statement!
First, private club members are adults who knowlingly have opted in to buy the food they want to eat. (I suppose one could say that that public consumers have opted into the industrial food supply, whether they know it or not.)
Second, in the event that there is ever a food safety issue, private club members can hold their farmer accountable unlike the obscurity of our bureaucratic, industrial food suppliers.
If private club accountability offers consumers noontime sunlight, then public consumers are lost in the darkness of midnight.
and if he still won’t let them on the property? then what?
That won’t happen. The Amish are pacifists. Will abide by a court order.
I’m laughing to think what the public (now private) officials would think of making private photos/acts public. They seem to have no shame on showing their as**terics in public, perhaps they do not really know the difference.
Flanagan needs a dictionary,instead of a fictionary.
That aside,let them inspect at will, they have no permit to pull. They haven’t quite figured out yet, that like antibiotics, nature (especially human nature) becomes immune, resistant …transcending, growing stronger with each heavy handed act.
Our movement is no longer nascent. We will also grow beyond this, transforming, staying out of reach, maddening them with our dexterity, our connection, our collective wisdom.
I do think someone needs to learn about true food safety, and I don’t think it’s Amos. They cannot exit this experience without being exposed to and learning many things that their public (now private) education left out.
I love that Amos spoke for himself. I’ve never met a kinder, wiser and loving individual.
I saw the impact Vernon’s father made in the courtroom back in Baraboo, just by his uprightness of being. That was better than any legal argument. It spoke volumes.
Well said, Cathy. Just one minor footnote to your recollection about Vernon Hershberger’s father. He spoke in the courtroom in Baraboo under the questioning of a top-notch defense lawyer. Amos Miller was there as his own lawyer. Now, Amos is a wonderful farmer, produces beautiful nutrient-dense food. But he knows nothing about the law (nor should he).
I guarantee you that Judge Smith and the team of government lawyers were thrilled to see Amos representing himself. Would be like Lebron James doing one-on-one with me. Hopefully that will change if this case continues on a legal trajectory.
Cathy,
Seriously…. I mean this in all sincerity, “what is true food safety? ”
I know what it takes to comply with regulations, but in my mind, that does not necessarily mean “true food safety”.
Any ideas on what true food safety means?
The more that I experience highly regulated and intensively tested raw milk, the more I recognize the roll of coliforms in food safety and pathogen suppression. I also recognize the role of very low levels of pathogens in development of normal immune status. Brest milk contains pathogens for a reason !!??
All of this experience and cutting edge science flies in the face of current food safety compliance.
Is a safe food a pathogen free food ?
Is a safe food a biodiverse food that builds and strengthens immunity?
What is a safe food ? This is a serious question for the next decades to come.
It’s less about safety and more about paperwork. “Is that water clean?” A normal person would think that testing it at the moment you ask the question would answer that question. For the government, it’s not clean unless you have test results in a file cabinet that are less than 1 year old. “Educate about safety” means educate about the voluminous amount of paperwork that the government requires. It’s not enough to produce something in a safe and clean manner. You have to have documentation detailing your sanitation process. You have to have records recording sanitation times and methods. You have to have documentation detailing your normal production process. You have to have that documentation open and in front of you while you do the process even if you have done it 1000 times. Then you have to document how and when and where and who did the process this time. Then you have to put a batch number on the product and have paperwork that associates that batch to every raw ingredient in the batch and more paperwork on the sourcing and testing of every single one of those raw ingredients. But as long as all of your paperwork is in order (for instance, your pest control policy paperwork), you can have rats and roaches running through your facility and birds nesting overhead and pooing on your equipment while you create your product and it will be considered “safe for the public”. It’s really ridiculous.
Amos Miller saw Tuesday’s hearing more positively than I did. He thought Judge Smith was more supportive of Miller’s argument about the rights of a private food association. He also thought the judge was putting the government regulators on notice to not be harassing in their inspection and followup. Here is his statement to private association members he serves:
“Last Tuesday, June 28, 2016, I appeared before the Honorable Edward G. Smith to determine whether, or not, the USDA is authorized to come to Miller’s Organic Farm in order to inspect. During the hearing, we presented testimony that explained our values as private members.
“Most importantly, our witnesses invoked our First Amendment right as an expressive association to engage in conduct which expresses our desire to provide a clean, wholesome and natural food supply to citizens who do not trust foods inspected by the federal government. We argued that our private members associate because they do not wish to consume foods that are adulterated with pesticides and chemicals. Judge Smith was extremely sensitive to our cause and even commented on the record that we are, in fact, an expressive association deserving of protection under the First Amendment. This is truly a tremendous victory for us!
“Nonetheless, Judge Smith made very clear that our protection under the First Amendment is not yet ripe. At this point in time, Judge Smith found that the administrative subpoena statute gives the government the right to take a look to see if any of their regulations apply, or not.
Judge Smith was very adamant that he finds our association to be an expressive association deserving of protection. By making such a finding, the judge is requiring the government to come up with a compelling governmental interest that is unrelated to the suppression of ideas (in our case, the idea that private individuals have the right to choose natural foods that are not adulterated by governmentally required chemicals and processes) by the least restrictive means possible. This is a very high burden that the government must overcome. The government merely won the right to come in and take a look. Judge Smith admonished them on the record about the burden they must overcome beyond that, which is why we are very excited about what we accomplished on Tuesday!
“I hope this letter helps to calm any concerns you may have. Just remember that throughout history, when man invokes his right to liberty under the law, there has been a government agency that seeks to suppress that liberty. The founding fathers set the stage by standing up against such tyranny and gave us the Constitution upon which to stand up for ourselves when the need arises. Our time has come, and we are standing up for our rights armed with every letter of the constitution! Thank you again for your support and prayers!”
The government is in bed with big Pharma. I just finished reading a detailed account of what Greg Caten went through for selling Cansema Black Salve. He spent close to four years in Federal prison for trumped up charges that weren’t valid. We as citizens need to wake up before it’s too late. Our government does NOT play by the rules. If they see you as a threat to the profits of Big Pharma or any other major corporate industry player, they will shut you down by any means possible. Don’t believe me? Look up Greg Caten and what happened to him. The real reason for his incarceration was that he was selling a salve that actually cured basal cell carcinoma. He was arrested even though he followed the standard disclosures required to sell alternative naturopathic products. He was a threat to a huge money maker–the cancer treatment industry. I sincerely hope Amos and our club aren’t shut down too. It’s a sad day when the government has control over almost every aspect of our lives. Every day we are stripped more and more of our rights. We need to band together and stop them before it’s too late.
@ Gordon: In the first “reply” to you, I used the reply button. In this one, I had no choice because the “reply” thing was missing, and that’s not the first time that’s happened to me.
As to the rest of your tirade – I’m not interested in what YOU want. Since you seem to have answers for everything and everyone, why not try to be supportive rather than tearing down your fellow milkers/farmers?
D, it’s important to remember that with Watson, race, religion, and ethnic origin are central to judging people, much more important than such intangibles as integrity, commitment, innovativeness, and caring.
I guess judging people isn’t what he’s supposed to be doing, but for one who spouts religion all over the place he certainly has a lot of judging tossed in.
He certainly misunderstood my last post, but hey, it’s ok. It’s all good.
OK D. Smith, I’ll whittle it down to your level of comprehension. As they say in the advertising biz. “seven words or less”. The Bible commands Believers
“Judge righteous judgement” so, contrary to what you gathered from my posts ; pronouncing judgement upon this sinful nation is the job of prophetic types – including moi
… And the standard we use for doing so is = the Law of our God. for more and better answers, read that book yourself … and ALL of it
… as old Georgie Gordon used to put it: ” even if you don’t know the Law, you’re in line for punishment for breaking it”. The curses we see on Hammerica, – particularly the land and food supply – are direct consequence of the nation breaking the agricultural and food laws given to our ancestors at Mount Sinai
@ Gordon: Maybe you could give us your definition of righteous.
no ordinary person could miss my points so thoroughly ; your studied blindness takes special talent! In response to the emotional pitch on this blog = to come alongside Amish Amos © after he got his goatee caught in the govt. wregulatory wringer, I’ve spelled out = the best I can ( with my limited abilities in the English language ) what the real issue is. Not the quality of his foodstuff. It’s that he wants to have it both ways … hide out in his religious disguise as an “expressive community”, but go on out into the big bad world – which is dogma expressly rejects, mind you, and do business when it suits dem. I leave off being sympathetic when they start bleating that his consortium doesn’t have to play by the same rules as the rest of us, who are SUPPOSEDLY all equal under the law.
… you are indeed correct that race, religion and ethic origin are central to judging people. Confer with the Bible ; written ABOUT Israel, given TO Israel for its handbook of government. Since we Caucasians are the direct descendants of the man, Israel, then those scriptures are our Standard for judging everything. Which is why I mock people like the Amish, who cleave to the Bible if as and when it suits dem.
… commitment? I’ve only been at this Campaign for REAL MILK, for 2 decades, so you’ve got me there … I’m only a beginner compared to you guys.
… “Innovative-ness”? Today, I sent off my order for the co-pulsation equipment from Bill Gehm. If you can find me anyone in the raw milk movement who’s using it, I’d love to talk with them. Sally Fallon – early adapter as always – does use it. Although Sally Fallon was moving heaven and earth to educate people about raw milk before you people had so much as taken a sip, she’s persona non grata on this forum lately. an UN-person, so I guess her accumulated wisdom of a lifetime on this topic is of no account to youse
… “Caring” ?! No, I don’t care what you say about me because an adamantine forehead is what God gives to men like me = it comes with the territory. See “Isaiah’s Job” by Alfred J Knock. My love for my own race is manifested by bringing them into remembrance of what’s been forgotten. The agricultural and food laws being one of the ways that’s easiest to demonstrate. For comic relief ; perhaps you can ask Mr Miller to reconcile the simple command NOT to eat swine’s flesh with his consortium selling prime pork for top dollar? point me to the chapter and verse of the Ordnung? Oh, that’s right, it’s not written down. So ultimately his religion is like all the other tragicomedies : whatever the Magisterium of his group say it is, this month.
Finally D Smith, you’ve come in late to this movie, and it shows. I have originated 4 cowshares in BC and helped dozens of people produce 1000s of gallons of REAL MILK. Quit with the ad hominem against me, and elaborate a bit more on your own track record?
….