Richard Hebron of Family Farms Co-opOne of the frequent accusations public health authorities make against raw dairy producers is that they deny illnesses from raw milk. Indeed, Lykke repeats that notion when she suggests in a comment following my previous post that producers refuse to apologize when their consumers become ill.
Richard Hebron, who runs the Family Farms Co-operative herdshare in Michigan, has been trying for more than a week now to put that notion to rest. Hebron is the farmer who became a cause celebre in October 2006 when he was the object of a Michigan Department of Agriculture “sting operation” and had more than $8,000 worth of raw dairy products confiscated. A local prosecutor investigated Hebron and the Family Farms Co-op for five months, and eventually decided not to press charges. The case led to the establishment of the Michigan Fresh Unprocessed Whole Milk Workgroup to explore ways to break down barriers between dairies and public health and agriculture authorities.
Family Farms Co-op was also targeted early last year by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and state agriculture officials for possible legal action in a planned crackdown on raw milk buying groups, according to emails obtained by Max Kane, head of a Wisconsin buying group who has been targeted himself.
The Family Farms Co-op has continued operating and serving hundreds of herdshare members without incident, until last week, when a handful of members complained of flu-like symptoms. Five were diagnosed as having campylobacter.
As soon as Hebron learned the news late last week, he went public with members, first alerting them via email of the possibility that herdshare raw milk might be the culprit, then halting milk deliveries, and next doing extensive testing of both the dairy’s milk and its water sources. In addition, the herdshare has been in contact with local public health authorities, providing them with the lab testing data.
In an email last Thursday, Hebron stated: “Several families today have reported members being sick with diarrhea since last Friday’s milk delivery. Some of those sickened believe the illness may have come from last Friday’s milk delivery, March 5 to Ann Arbor and Wyandotte. Some stool samples from these individuals show campylobacter, a relatively mild form of food poisoning, although in rare cases, campylobacter can result in serious complications. There is no specific information to suggest that the illness is related to milk, but we want you to know so that you can decide if you or any members of your family want to stop drinking the milk.”
The herdshare decided to halt milk deliveries scheduled for last Friday and Monday, and sent two samples of fresh milk along with samples from the dairy’s two water sources for testing at two private labs. The tests all came back negative.
An email sent to members this week noted, “Additional testing, commonly used for general milk quality, was impressively low for somatic cell count (if the somatic cell count had been high, this would have been an indicator of possible mastitis in the cows). This quality indicator, together with the negative pathogen tests, renews our confidence in the high quality and cleanliness of the milk we provide to our membership.”
Hebron told me he’s not sure exactly how many members of the herdshare have become ill beyond the five confirmed with campylobacter. He noted that the herdshare has taken the approach of “being completely open about this.”
He added that members have divided into three groups: those who became ill and have decided to not consume raw milk any more; those who became ill and plan to continue consuming raw milk; and the vast majority of herdshare members who didn’t become ill and are continuing to consume the milk. “I’m sure we’ll lose some members,” he said. “A few have said they’ll never trust raw milk again.”
Two members I spoke with who didn’t become ill said there have been reports of flu-like symptoms in the Ann Arbor area by people who didn’t consume raw milk. One of those members, Linda Diane Feldt, a holistic health practitioner, says that one of her clients and several friends who aren’t milk drinkers told her of their illnesses. She says the client tried raw milk kefir and miso soup at Feldt’s suggestion and reported significant improvement in symptoms. None of these individuals was tested for campylobacter, according to Feldt.
Where does this go from here? As a private organization, which doesn’t sell to the public, the herdshare seems to have done all it could in the interests of transparency, communicating with its members and taking precautions to halt deliveries and test the milk and water sources. It’s also understood to be preparing a questionnaire to gather data from its members.
How will public health authorities react? That remains to be seen, but hopefully cooperation will continue to be the norm.
And hopefully, the Family Farms Co-Op experience will begin to change the perception that raw dairies react to possible illnesses with only denial.
?
This type of transparency is the extra benefit of raw milk sold directly to the consumer, with standards that EXCEED those created and enforced by government agencies.
I, and so many others, are grateful for people like Richard who are willing to do the right thing, have integrity, and provide a much needed product and service. It makes my life and my health better.
Everyone knows that raw milk proponents are nothing more than a group of deniers. After all, raw milk will cure ANY disease and NEVER makes anyone ill…everyone knows we all claim that, for goodness sake.
Authorities like Marler and Sheehan say so, so it it MUST be true. We are such lying, denying scum we need to be trod upon by the unconstitutional boot of government agents…right Bill?
BH
http://www.JuicyMaters.com
Apart from mastitis other factors that can influence high somatic cell count are, stage of lactation, age (older cows have a higher somatic cell count which is indicative of a well developed immune system) seasonal variations due in part to exposure to seasonal ailments such as winter dysentery, up to two weeks after calving due to colostrums production and day to day variations due to stress.
High somatic cell count is fundamentally a management and regulator induced dilemma that would not be the problem it is if we would simply focus more on quality rather then quantity. In other words small family farms rather then the intensive industrial variety.
Ken
http://www.clickondetroit.com/money/22890280/detail.html
"The outbreak investigation is ongoing, with efforts to determine how widely these unregulated products are being distributed."
(The remainder of this comment edited out for offensive language. TCP)
BH
http://www.JuicyMaters.com
If there is one thing people are keenly and vehemently aware of its there freedom.
I only know Bob Hayles from what he has written here on this site yet he reminds me of a very good friend of mine. His name was Bob Howard and wouldnt you know it they both have the same initials.
Bob Hayles may very well be aggressively honest with a hint of vulgarity he is certainly not a shallow individual nor is he vile.
Ken Conrad
cp
http://www.marlerblog.com/2009/05/articles/legal-cases/the-alexandre-eco-farms-dairy-raw-milk-campylobacter-outbreak/
cp
Thank you….for your words…you saved me the time and typing.
One change however…I never like to see illness. The data shows that most farmers that drink their own raw milk have blood antibody titers for campylobacter and do not get sick from it.
Campylobacter is a depressed and inexperienced immune system excercise. These new campy people now are immune and should continue to drink raw milk.
Also….my highest regards for how this was handled. Good job!!
Openness and integrity will go far with the consumers and the regulators.
You will be back in no time with this kind of moral high ground.
Now you need to find out why and how it got into the milk….if indeed it did. Campy is so common and is found in everyday food, chicken etc…it is also so fragile. It dies when exposed to air and is very very hard to culture in a specialized lab.
Thanks CP….you are getting to know me….
Well handled…All the best,
Mark
cp
http://www.marlerblog.com/2010/03/articles/legal-cases/pasteurized-milk-outbreaks-do-happen-despite-what-the-food-and-drug-administration-and-the-centers-for-disease-control-and-prevention-say/
http://www.annarbor.com/news/michigan-health-officials-warn-of-bacterial-outbreak-from-a-about-outbreak-of-infection-from-raw-mil/
even though it hasn’t been proven. I’ve asked them to change the headline.
The commenters to the article perhaps lack the sophistication and knowledge of this group, but it has sparked some discussions and questions. The pro raw milk and food choice side seems to be the most with real names.
I hope other Ann Arborites and Family Farm members will comment as well.
And I sure enjoyed having milk to drink as of today. I thank Richard and Family Farms for that. Yogurt will be ready in the morning.
I find it interesting how there seems to be other people in the area that have similar symptoms (as reported by Linda – a health care practitioner) who do not drink raw milk. Also the health department apparently hasn’t come out and officially said that it was the raw milk that caused it. Yet the newspaper article right under the headline states "8 Cases of Illness Caused By Unregulated Products" Apparently the writers at the newspaper have enough information to make a decision themselves.
I do believe in the Problem-Reaction-Solution that lola spoke of earlier. In this case when the general public hears that the illnesses were caused by unregulated products, they will by and large think that every product should be regulated. We need the government to protect us.
Linda, I hope more of the herdshare members would comment too! I think more and more people need to tune in to the state of afairs regarding this topic and share their thoughts. It is interesting to note that comments previously made on this site have ended up being quoted in federal documents. I doubt most of us are known individually to TPTB, yet I would think that collectively the general tide of opinion is monitored.
I was thinking today, after reading Mark’s comments regarding email lists, that it is good for each individual dairy to have their consumers go to bat for them. I would think though that most individual dairies do not have such a large consumer base. I think that banded together the dairies could have more pull than alone. I am not sure how to work this since any larger organization could easily fall prey to the large corporate mindset down the road and any large database of email addresses could easily be taken over by the government and used for their own purposes. Something to think about though.
Thank you for your posting of the Three Whittier Farms pasteurized milk listeria deaths and your litigation documents. We all appreciate your equal opportunity collections efforts.
Now for my genius idea….Bill this might hurt a bit but you can take it.
Bill Marler has become the single most feared element in the emerging raw milk market. Stores and their insurance companies tremble at the mention of his name. Right or wrong this is reality in America. Insurance companies simply write checks and that is why Bill really promotes having lots of insurance coverage. It makes for very easy target shooting and he gets 30-50% of the loot. Wow…what a ratchet. Easy money.
Farmers… here is the fix…..
Number one…use a well constructed food safety plan and avoid the liability to begin with.
Number two…carry a small amount of insurance…not a huge amount. Big insurance policies beg for someone to shoot at the big target. Keep your food chain short with fewer parties in the food chain.
Number three….here is the creative genius part…vending machines!!!
Lets invest in vending machines that are co-located very near stores. The vending machine can be located in the parking lot and not be a part of the store and therefore the products sold are not sold in the store and do not become a part of the stores liability chain.
Stores have short receiving hours which makes it hard to deliver during the day hours. A vending machine could be delivered into 24-7 at off hours. The machine could take credit cards and supply the farmer with cash in 48 hours. The inventory in the vending machine could be kept fresh and very cold delivered twice per week and all old back stock could be taken back to the dairy. The inventory levels could be checked via email and when sold out the dairy could deliver more. No more empty shelves. Video surveilance of the vending machine can tell the dairy miuch about the consumer and their habits. You can also get the names and email addresses of each consumer if you want. You will have the billing data from the visa, ATM or EBT card. This would facilitate any recalls if needed. A vending machine would also keep the pesky inspectors from taking product off the shelf with out the dairy knowing. They would have to buy it and give you some indication of their activities.
This technology does exist…but it may need to customized to work for prepackaged half gallons and other raw dairy products…but this can be done. It would lower the price point and also put the money all in the farmers pocket. temperature data could be emailed and tracked perfectly in real time. The farmer would have his own remote control store.
This vending machine model would reduce the power of the big insurance scaring guerilla in the room…Bill Marler… by reducing the huge insurance opportunity target that big stores or even smaller stores present.
So who wants to help me invent the first prototype of the "Farm to Consumer Direct Vending Machine for Raw Milk"??
This solves so many issues. It keeps stores from pricing raw milk out of reach of common people that need it.
Wow….this is huge.
Sorry Bill…your days of scaring big insurance companies by the sheer mention of your name is coming to an end …..but I do very much appreciate your Whittier Farms pasteurized milk wrongful death case summary.
Let us not forget that the National Association of Pediatrians standards now says do not give antibiotics to cases of suspected ecoli 0157H7 until cultures identify the species and antibiotic sensitivity. To give antibiotics to a child with suspected ecoli with out this culture testing has been the direct cause of HUS and renal failure in so many children and is malpractice.
This malpractice by doctors should not become increased damages for farmers.
No organic farm ever created Ecoli 0157H7….these terrible bacteria came from antibiotic abuse at factory CAFO farms. Yet the CAFOs are never brought to justice for their damages and ecosystem terrorism.
This is the real displaced injustice. In this America we may see some justice for these crimes many years from now but until then….God will deal with these "Food Inc"…criminals.
The most dangerous thing an American can do is to walk arround with a weak immune system.
Raw milk is the best immune system rebuilding food on planet earth.
Bill…I would love to join with you in a class action lawsuit against all antibiotic abusing, antibiotic feeding CAFO systems in America to put the blame where it belongs. This huge cash settlement could then be placed into a reserve account for kids sickened by Ecoli 0157H7….aka…tobacco settlement comes to mind.
Mark
"Number one…use a well constructed food safety plan and avoid the liability to begin with".
That has been my point all along – see recent post (a bit(e) tongue in cheek): http://www.marlerblog.com/2010/03/articles/lawyer-oped/strict-product-liability-in-food-food-manufacturers-are-a-lot-like-the-black-knight/ – "As I tell my friends in the food industry – "Prevention is the only Protection." So says William, lawyer in Seattle."
Regarding you hope/wish that it was the doctor’s fault in the HUS cases linked to your farm’s E. coli O157:H7 outbreak in 2006, there are several more recent articles in the literature that have discounted the link between antibiotics and HUS – see these – http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/288/8/996 and http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/342/26/1930. Believe me, if I could link those kid’s illnesses to the hospital care that saved their lives, I would have done it in a heartbeat.
Regarding what you believe I get in fees – ask the lawyers that defended you in the outbreak in 2006 – they know.
NO one pointed a weapon at me this morning to force down my throat the 1/2 cup of raw cream in my coffee or the 5 tablespoons of raw butter on my freeranging chicken eggs or the raw whey in my lacto fermented veggies or the raw kefir and the raw milk I consume. I drive an hour one way to obtain this NEARLY banned PERFECT food and I would drive all day if necessary. That being the case who is responsible for what is placed in my mouth??? ITS ALL MINE. My farmer has NOTHING to fear from me. My only FEAR is that since I am to damn dumb to produce my own food our god the STATE will destroy the hand full of REAL FARMERS that we have left. Hail to our modern day caesars in suits and ties instead of togas??? History repeats itself only the names are change to protect the GUILTY???
http://www.nonaiswa.org/?p=4304
US cattle herd falls to 1955 levels!!!
US population today is 310 million US population in 1955 was less than 200 million {175 million as I recall]. Who or what is to blame the farmer or US farm policy or the boogie man that the TPTB like to call the business cycle???
IS SOMETHING WRONG??? Looks very scary to me.
And then there is also our nations depleted grain reserves to be concered about!!!
Who is minding our store? China to the rescue???
I wonder if a regulations (along the lines of the one in WI discussed last post) with legal herdshares and a customer list requirement could lead to a more "local" reaction when there is a problem. In other words, if public health could reach every customer, why the need for a press release? However, I admit that these outbreaks are probably being used as "teachable moments" to inform the public about raw milk risks. And, the exaggerated health claims combined with denial of risks/outbreaks by the raw milk movement may be fueling that public health fire against raw milk in the US and other countries.
Many people, however, facing severe injury and multiple millions of dollars in past and future medical expenses and wage loss, choose to assert their or their child’s rights against the manufacturer of the food that contained a pathogen. That food manufacturer, whether raw milk, hamburger, sprouts, peanut butter, etc., has every right to defend the suit by claiming the consumer knew the risks and/or mishandled the product. In addition, as Mark noted above, the food manufacturer can sue other parties that might be at fault, if they have the evidence to support it.
I do not expect to change your mind about the legal system, I just ask you to show the respect to those that utilize it that you do to those that do not.
I could understand a lawsuit if a harmful product was intentionally put out for someone to purchase. For example if a meat packing plant knew that a product was contaminated yet went ahead and shipped it anyway knowing that they will make more money on the sales than on any possible litigation expenses.
It is my opinion that the small farmers on the other hand try their best to produce a healthy product and when something does happen, they lose everything. I do not think that any amount of regulation or any new laws will guarantee food safety. I am sure that people have been getting sick from food since the very beginning of time. Whatever clever plans we come up with to deal with a problem, nature deals with in some way (case in point antibiotics and the MRSA threat).
In my opinion, since there are people that believe the government can protect them from all harm, those people should be able to have a place where everything is government approved (like a supermarket). For those of us that want something different (like raw milk) there should be a place for us albeit at the cost of being able to sue against the person that is trying their best to produce a clean product. The two systems can and should (in my opinion) live together.
I could not disagree more with your assersion that Antibiotics are unassociated with HUS.
from your article…:
"Risk of Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome After Antibiotic Treatment of Escherichia coli O157:H7 Enteritis
A Meta-analysis
Nasia Safdar, MD; Adnan Said, MD; Ronald E. Gangnon, PhD; Dennis G. Maki, MD
JAMA. 2002;288:996-1001.
Context The use of antibiotics for treatment of Escherichia coli O157:H7 infection has become controversial since a recent small study found that it may increase the risk of hemolytic uremic syndrome (HUS)."
This is from your article….the rest of the article actually discounts its own value and says that more study is needed and that it is still unknown. The article you cite also cherry picks data and is less than fair or comprehensive.
Why do you think that the national standards development associations for pediatric care have changed their acute therapy protocols and postpone use of antibiotics when Ecoli is suspected.
As you well know…ecoli 0167H7 is many times antibiotic resistant….why would any doctor, PA or nurse practioner ever ever give an antibiotic to a attempt to kill something resistant to it…
That is why the protocol was changed. At valley childrens hopsital in Fresno CA. the protocol has been changed and now it is very seldom that kids with ecoli get HUS. They may get sick but they do not get really sick and they recover quickly.
I do appreciate your sparing on this issue…but you are dealing with a premed trained retired paramedic that has deep connections in the medical community and knows this stuff intimitely. Doctors and nurses tell me about the real time effects of antibiotics every day and I study this subject to understand it. I am sure you could probably speak as an expert yourself after all of your years studying it. In fact you probably know more about this subject than many doctors do.
I will dig up the new pediatrics treatment protocols and get them up here asap. The protocol is: test the bacteria prior to treatment. HUS is a very real concern for antibiotic treatment.
Mark
No you won’t change my view of your justice system. And I do still agree with the quote I posted 6 weeks ago by Chief Justice Warren Burger and his view of the justice system.
Not something one should be proud of but thats just my opinion,
However, I would like to commend Richard Hebron for his swift, open response to the potential link between Family Farms milk and the Campylobacter outbreak. It’s a relief to know that there wasn’t a connection, but even if there were, his quick actions would have served to minimize the damage. I am more pleased than ever to be a part of this wonderful group that provides nourishing, living food. Here’s a salute to my farmer with integrity!
I’m frustrated, however, by the response from the Michigan Health Department. Its press release seems more punitive than informative or helpful. There was no need to issue a public press release since the public doesn’t consume this milk. I’m sure it’s rather discouraging to Richard, who was trying to work with the Health Department, to be slapped in the face instead.
I’m also frustrated by the Annarbor.com online newspaper article. It’s poor journalism to use the headline they did.
People who knowingly engage in risky behavior personally bear the responsibility if it goes wrong. Unless the farmer knowingly sold contaminated milk to sue them after you get sick is nothing more than theft. You can’t have it both ways and claim raw milk in inherently unsafe and that farmers are responsible when someone becomes sick.
This isn’t about justice and responsibility, its about theft, and slavery and knocking down farmers who dared free themselves from the oppressive system.
But don’t expect thieves and tyrants to be honest about the reasons they do what they do.
In California, the financial split for a personal injury settlement involving a child is 25/75; 25% to the attorney and 75% to the child. All money is placed in a trust until the child turns 18 years old. Parents do not have access to this money for their own personal use. I would like to mention that Marler Clark can use their own personal discretion as to what fee they would like to receive. In other words, the most they can receive is 25% of the settlement, but they can choose to receive less.
Mark, I continue to be disheartened with your inability to tell the truth and your continued attempts to detract from the seriousness of E.coli 0157:H7 infection. I recently read WAPFs analysis of the CDCs report on the OPDC E.coli outbreak. It appears to have been written by Kimberly Hartke, the publicist for WAPF.
Mark, help me understand why this statement is in this document:
[The two children who became gravely ill with HUS and were subsequently hospitalized had been treated with antibiotics, even though they had armbands warning against such treatment, another fact omitted in the CDC report.]
Who fed Kim Hartke this information about the phantom armbands? This never happened. Chris and Lauren never wore armbands stating they shouldnt be given antibiotics. Why does WAPF need to tell lies about raw milk outbreaks? Words can not describe how disgusted I am at these irresponsible antics.
Mark, you have told so many lies about the OPDC outbreak that you cant keep your stories straight. A few weeks after we came home from the hospital our local newspaper interviewed us. You must have read the article and twisted the story around in your mind to fit your imaginary version of what happened. Heres what we were quoted as saying:
[They said that if the first doctor Chris saw when he went into the hospital on the first night would have put a wristband on him noting that he should not receive a dose of antibiotics, then the second doctor may not have administered the dose that sent Chris spiraling into trauma. "All they needed was one little wristband," Mary said.]
This interview took place on November 26, 2006. If I was interviewed today, there would be a different perspective. Ive had 3 years to research the topic of E.coli 0157:H7, HUS and the use of antibiotic treatment. Heres what Ive learned:
1.There is a term called pre-HUS symptoms. Children and adults who contract a severe E.coli infection manifest these symptoms prior to the blood work showing HUS. Chris manifested all of them.
2.After the onset of diarrhea, HUS typically develops on day 6.5-8. Chris developed HUS on day 5.
3.We will never know if administering antibiotics to Chris on day 4 contributed to him developing HUS or made his HUS more severe. Antibiotics or no antibiotics, I believe Chris would have developed HUS. All the signs were there.
4.The reason antibiotics are given when someone has a severe case of E.coli 0157:H7 is because bad things can happen to the colonmainly parts or all it may need to be removed.
I have two research articles on the use of antibiotics and developing HUS that were downloaded and printed from Loma Linda University Childrens Hospital on September 16th, 2006. This is when we had a long conversation with the nephrologist about whether the antibiotics caused Chris HUS. He couldnt give us a definitive answer. Research on the topic has resulted in conflicting conclusions. One of the articles came to the conclusion that antibiotics could lead to the development of HUS http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/342/26/1930 and the other one concluded that it did not http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/288/8/996 .
This quote is taken from the first article that concluded that there is an increased risk of developing HUS if antibiotics are given:
[When analyzing the role of antibiotic administration as a risk factor for the development of the hemolytic-uremic syndrome in children infected with E.coli 0157:H7, it is important to consider that the severity of illness might confound the association with antibiotic treatment. For example, antibiotics might be administered to more severely ill infected children in whom the hemolytic-uremic syndrome is destined to develop independently of antibiotic treatment.]
I believe this statement describes Chris case. We will never know if the use of antibiotics triggered his HUS, made it more severe, or the opposite, may have saved his life because his colon did not die.
Mark, E.coli 0157:H7 is not antibiotic resistant. Youre using the wrong term. Salmonella has become antibiotic resistant. Antibiotics are successful in killing the e.coli 0157:H7 bacterium; thats the crux of the problem. The concern with using antibiotics with and E.coli 0157:H7 infection is that it could cause the Shiga toxins to multiply. When the E.coli bacteria begin to die, they release the Shiga toxin. The Shiga toxin is what causes the HUS. If an antibiotic is used, it is theorized that the bacteria die rapidly therefore releasing large amounts of the Shiga toxin all at one time. This theoretically could lead to an increased chance of developing HUS. This is what all the research is trying to determine. After the research from The New England Journal of Medicine was released in the year 2000, the AMA took the cautious approach and the rule of thumb is no antibiotics for a patient the presents with symptoms of E.coli 0157:H7.
Mark, in light of all of the above information, please stop implying that all cases of HUS are caused by the use of antibiotics. This just isnt true. E.coli 0157:H7 infection is very serious and can cause death. Raw milk can harbor this deadly pathogen and multiple raw milk outbreaks have happened since 2005 involving E.coli 0157:H7. Many cases developed into HUS and not everyone was given antibiotics. The majority of victims are children.
It is time to focus on working together to make raw milk safe as humanly possible. I like the conversation that has been ongoing between Steve Bemis and Bill Marler addressing raw milk safety ideas. I hope these two can continue to have constructive conversations and that their ideas can actually be implemented.
Mary
When Bill Marler is adamant about raw milk farmers having a sizable insurance policy, he is advocating for the future victims of a raw milk outbreak, not for money in his own pocket. Heres my sons reality. When hes an adult and is no longer covered under our policy, he can be denied medical insurance due to a preexisting illness. Where does that leave him for the rest of his life? Not to mention the possible kidney transplant he may need someday. Thank goodness he has some money to assist with these medical matters.
Due to the fact that I have been so vocal about Chris illness, most of the discussion about the OPDC outbreak has revolved around facts of his case. Do you all realize that Lauren Herzog (the other hospitalized child with HUS in the OPDC outbreak who wasnt given antibiotics and who did have the matching blueprint of E.coli 0157:H7 to 4 other children sprinkled throughout California who also all consumed an OPDC product in September of 2006) has stage 1 kidney disease? Her kidneys never fully recovered. Every three months she has to go to the nephrologist (kidney doctor) and have blood and urine tests run. For now, an ace inhibitor is keeping her kidneys functioning, but it wont last forever.
And Mark McAfee makes statements that raw milk farmers should carry the lowest about of insurance as possible? I dont understand this type of logic. The policy is there in the event someone becomes ill.
Raw milk advocates can remain in denial about raw milk being a high risk food source for pathogen contamination, but it wont change the fact that raw milk outbreaks will continue to happen. I support everyones right to have access to raw milk, but at the same time compensation needs to be available for anyone that becomes ill from raw milk. The long term consequences for some victims will last a lifetime.
Again, I would like to see the leaders in the raw milk movement and Bill Marler work together to create raw milk safety standards that also include language for mandatory insurance coverage. The cost of insurance can be offset with higher milk prices.
Mary
So that pressure worked. By this afternoon, many people commented on that issue, and defended raw milk eloquently.
To respond to an earlier question, Family Farms uses e-mail to contact customers, and two e-mails have now been sent to the full membership. David quoted from them. So any state notification was not directed to the membership.
I was shocked that the facebook group Raw Milk linked to one of the more inflammatory articles saying "t goes to show we do need to be very careful about where our raw milk comes from." apparently assuming the Detroit News gave an accurate report based on Health Dept. findings?
So even our supporters and fellow raw milk drinkers fall victim to the misinformation put out about cases like this.
i was one of the few who gave a real name in commenting on the AnnArbor.com article, I’ve also always posted here under my real name. I’m dismayed at how much writing I’ve had to do, and exposing myself, to defend a farmer who has done right by me and my friends.
It is also interesting that I’ve already been contacted by one person asking for information on how to get raw milk in Ann Arbor!
Richard Hebron has paid some heavy dues just providing a service for so many. I’m grateful that he has hung in there, and he deserves our support for being one of the people on the front lines. Which is why I’ve spent so much time defending him and Family Farms the last few days. Yet, what a waste of time being attacked by people who compared drinking raw milk to pond water. Really.
http://www.detnews.com/article/20100320/LIFESTYLE03/3200329/1040/Bacteria-in-raw-milk-sickens-eight-in-Michigan
They make it sound like an open and shut case!!!
http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/88691997.html
Your comment could not be more mis-informed about the reality here in America’s Dairyland. You say:
"I wonder if a regulations (along the lines of the one in WI discussed last post) with legal herdshares and a customer list requirement could lead to a more "local" reaction when there is a problem. In other words, if public health could reach every customer, why the need for a press release?"
Take the Zinniker Family Farm case, which happened here in August. DATCP’s own press release stated that it was not an issue of public health concern, because the farm only sold to a defined customer list. However, the article appeared on the front page of the DATCP website for weeks, and was published in innumerable newspapers throughout the state.
You say — "However, I admit that these outbreaks are probably being used as "teachable moments" to inform the public about raw milk risks."
NO, Lykke, it became an excuse to go on a rampage shutting down DOZENS of farms which had absolutely NOTHING to do with the outbreak, and doing all sorts of other illegal and threatening things to the dairy farmers who spoke out.
"And, the exaggerated health claims combined with denial of risks/outbreaks by the raw milk movement may be fueling that public health fire against raw milk in the US and other countries."
Again, you are very niave and misinformed Lykke. Our WI Secretary of Agriculture has continually repeated how important our $21 billion dairy industry is, and how they have been placing incredible pressure on him to not allow the sales of raw milk.
DATCP is an incredibly corrupt and self-serving organization. They are not concerned with public health, whether it be for pasteurized or raw milk. Lykke, you grossly under-estimate the power of corporate influence within the halls of health and agricultural regulators. I do believe there are well-intentioned regulators out there, but their intentions are overshadowing by the gross influence of these corporate milk processors.
You need to come to Wisconsin to see how ugly this situation really is. There is never going to be safe legal raw milk in Wisconsin if these corporate interests have anything to say about it. Keep raw milk underground, illegal, and DIRTY. That is their goal.
First, just want to say thanks for the civil and intellectual exchange you bring to this blog. Regarding my being naive, not at all. Indeed would expect after the amount of time spent here, I might be the most informed public health person on the planet (other than Bill Marler and cp, who have also taken time to consider this controversy)..
My comment about the MI reaction was meant to be provocative for public health, in particular. The easiest course of action is to ban raw milk, but given the public outcry, it would seem logical to develop a safe way to make the product available. Strikes me that the farmer involved in MI did everything right when there was a potential problem, and he got screwed anyway. That is not fair.
At the same time, I don’t think the appropriate reaction from the raw milk movement is to jump on the boat and bring us down the River of Denial again (see cp’s comments)l, or put ouit this piece linked by Don and full of misinformation: http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/88691997.html. There is no credible data to back-up the article, nor any quotes from a real expert on nutrition. Feeding such nonsense to the media is not productive and will only result in more amti-raw milk press releases.
Regarding your comment
"You need to come to Wisconsin to see how ugly this situation really is. There is never going to be safe legal raw milk in Wisconsin if these corporate interests have anything to say about it. Keep raw milk underground, illegal, and DIRTY. That is their goal."
Here’s a secret – though I’m not sure why y’all don’t know it. Big ag and public health are not friends. Indeed, big ag would sqash all public health notices if they could control it. Dairy products have been virtually off the radar with regard to outbreaks and illnesses, and "big dairy" darn well want to keep it that way. If they could stop public health departments (or Bill Marler) from announcing outbreaks from any kind of milk, yout bet they would.
As Bill Marler said, "Prevention is the only Protection." No outbreaks, no problem.
If tptb really had a clue about the prevalence depth of raw milk sales in this country, it would totally undermine their ‘raw milk is dangerous’ propaganda. More people are drinking the stuff than they know, and many who do know better than to trumpet it to the world. Raw milk is special, and as a cornerstone of a healthy diet can create incredible increases in quality of life (health). Now Lykke and her ilk ignore this fact, for it doesn’t appear in a peer reviewed scientific journal…..but all you have to do is talk to any sample of raw milk drinkers, and the benefits are emphatically revealed.
The double standard is obvious…it’s OK to deny the health benefits, and the thousands of gallons a day that are consumed without any outbreaks….. yet we are supposed to trust health departments that jump to conclusions whenever a portion of the ill are raw milk drinkers. We’ve seen this in CO and in WI (and MN and other places)….the MO is blatant…and it seems that there are those just looking for any reason to officially trash the raw stuff in the media. Even if raw milk is the cause of a problem, the history of the authorities demands skepticism (at least from those with any intelligence and a clear view of reality)
Standards are nice… insurance policies, customer lists and 15 day old samples are just feel good measures. Raw milk will never be treated fairly and appropriately until the Processors recognize that they don’t ‘own’ the product, and stop exerting pre$$ure to keep the lid on the raw milk explosion. Given the profit margins the middlemen are making at the expense of the dairyman, I wouldn’t hold my breath for a change to come.
I’d hazard a guess that more than 50% of all raw milk drank in this country is from under the radar, no permit or license, no freezer full of samples, sources. If raw milk was really dangerous, those that are attaining better health would be dropping like flies. With health departments & consumer protection bureaus misinforming the public, and Bill taking advantage of the certainty that no decent food supply is 100% safe, raw milk has a significantly uphill slope to overcome (it’s a good thing that the stuff works miracles)
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2011399591_rawmilk21m.html
Holding that stick means holding power and money (witness the accelerating growth of government over the past century). Unsurprisingly, many attempt (many successfully!) to share a hand in wielding it–lawyers are often near the top of the list. It is true, is it not Bill, that a tort case receives imputed momentum from regulator and media hype? And that that momentum improves the chances of winning, and improves the monetary take? (And if things go really well and if the lawyer is very lucky, the case results in maybe a new law along the line of Jimmy’s Law–made up, but you get the idea–which immediately narrows every circumstance to a tiny nib, and helps induce juries to dole out the next monetary awards like m&ms? Is this how we are to exercise the rights you speak of?
Because of all this America is fast becoming a land of biters and bitten, and the result is a growing and very justified hatred of our political and legal class, a resurgence of calls for the restoration of basic freedoms and return to the decentralized power that America was founded on.
Bill says; Many people, however, facing severe injury and multiple millions of dollars in past and future medical expenses and wage loss, choose to assert their or their child’s rights against the manufacturer of the food that contained a pathogen. That food manufacturer, whether raw milk, hamburger, sprouts, peanut butter, etc., has every right to defend the suit by claiming the consumer knew the risks and/or mishandled the product. In addition, as Mark noted above, the food manufacturer can sue other parties that might be at fault, if they have the evidence to support it.
High-falutin (and tiresome) language that hides a world of unfairness and injustice. Who, for example, is defining risk? And more important, who, by God, can ever, EVER, promise that any tiny corner of this world is not subject to a mistake or an unintended consequence? And what of the children who must live in this world ever more completely created and controlled by lawyers and administrators and legislators? Who is looking out for THEIR rights?
Where have our communities–our neighbors helping neighborsgone? They have been stolen by the United States of Administration.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/19/opinion/19brooks.html?emc=eta1
Over the last 3 years our Robber Barons have confiscated unnumbered future generations of their yet unearned wealth think $75 trillion [probably much more] in US debt obligations and its all in the name of saving Main Street! WE ARE BROKE and running on fumes.
Last summer and fall the dire warning was broadcast that we were all going to die worldwide of H1N1 UNLESS we got jabbed. Didn’t happen. HMMM only 20% of the population stepped up for their jab of that stuff. No connection of course. It was reported that the pretty lady that spear headed that crusade now is COO of the vaccine division of the MFG of said product. REVOLVING DOOR??? Surely not.
TPTBs Adult Fairy Tales are increasingly falling on deaf ears and for good reason.
Like I said, you need to come to America’s Dairyland to see how bad this situation really is.
You cannot even imagine just how corrupt is DATCP’s division of Food Safety. They do not have consistent standards, they selectively apply the law, and even make up their own standards and laws as they go. Just look at what they are doing to Scott Trautman for speaking out. They use extortionist tactics, and have tried to force outspoken farmers who don’t even use anti-biotics to pay for loads of PMO bulk milk contaminated with anti-biotics via falsified antibiotic residue testing results.
They cannot even keep their own story straight about WHY they are trying to obtain the customer lists for every single farm that has provided raw milk in the entire state, or about the meaning of the "incidental sales" exemption in WI Stats. 97.17.
These people are unbelievably corrupt, vindictive, and capricious. And yes, it really does have to do with the corporate $$$. Our WI Secretary of Agriculture has continually repeated how important our $21 billion dairy industry is. The "raw milk working group" he has appointed is intentionally stacked with representatives from big industry, while small scale dairy processors who have the most direct experience with raw milk (and the science and politics of it) are intentionally left off the working group in favor of the pro-raw-milkers who are more idealistic and naive about the science and politics.
Just in case you really think that any of this has to do with public health… that is just a red herring. This has everything to do with dairy industry politics and economics. Do not allow yourself to be fooled.
Thanks and I hope you too are having a great first day of spring. I’m sure Dr. Beals is a very nice man, but some of the statements he makes about raw milk are baffling and do not fit the science. Thus, I don’t think he is really talking about science, but rather being an advocate for a belief system. You’d be hard-pressed to find many others with his credentials that would come to the same conclusions…Ron Hull, Joe Mercola, the pediatrician Mark talks about (forgot his name)? But it doesn’t really matter since you’ve expressed distrust in the mainstream medicine.
A handful of medical professionals can promote raw milk, and probably a lot feel that it is personal choice for an adult. But, this is more along the lines of what the majority of folks in Dr. Beals’ profession advise on raw milk for infants and other at-risk groups:
Pediatrics. 2010 Mar 15. [Epub ahead of print]
Fresh Goat’s Milk for Infants: Myths and Realities–A Review.
Basnet S, Schneider M, Gazit A, Mander G, Doctor A.
Department of Pediatrics, Southern Illinois University School of Medicine, Springfield, Illinois; and.
Many infants are exclusively fed unmodified goat’s milk as a result of cultural beliefs as well as exposure to false online information. Anecdotal reports have described a host of morbidities associated with that practice, including severe electrolyte abnormalities, metabolic acidosis, megaloblastic anemia, allergic reactions including life-threatening anaphylactic shock, hemolytic uremic syndrome, and infections. We describe here an infant who was fed raw goat’s milk and sustained intracranial infarctions in the setting of severe azotemia and hypernatremia, and we provide a comprehensive review of the consequences associated with this dangerous practice.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20231186
http://www.annarbor.com/news/michigan-health-officials-warn-of-bacterial-outbreak-from-a-about-outbreak-of-infection-from-raw-mil/
We have shared everything we know about this matter with the Michigan Health authorities and look forward to a cooperative, transparent investigation.
I do not reject everything mainstream medicine does if one is involved in an accident they do a great job of restoring the victim of course. But I do take issue with their complete reliance on pushing chemical drugs on everyone from the craddle to the grave.
Many times thru out history it has been it has been the lone voice crying in the wilderness that was laughted at scorned and even killed that has been correct and the majority would not listen. So do not discount the dissenter so easily.
You know my story lots and lots of raw dairy real food and no drugs and no MD visits and no Medicare cost. No connection to my diet?
http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2010/03/21/1349097/despite-health-concerns-raw-milk.html
A very tangled webb indeed and raw deal is a gross understatement.
Shall we end up with only a handful of multinatonal corporations operating all dairy farms nationwide? It would seem that maybe that is the oneway street we are traveling down.
Who benefits as more restrictions are placed on raw milk.
Don, as for the story that ran in the Seattle Times, did you notice the cow poop all over the place. What about this part of the article,
He doesnt exactly study the udders to make sure hes cleaned every last inch. And its messy. On a recent visit, one cow, who was sore, fussed as Brown started the milking device. She pooped, splattering Browns face, but he didnt seem to notice. She fussed so much that the device fell to the floor, and the cow stepped on it. When Brown finally got her off it, he sprayed it with a hose. Then he put it on the next cow.
Did you watch the video? Raw milk advocates cant actually support this type of sanitation practice. This man should be an embarrassment to the raw milk movement!
cp
Raw milk opponents want to believe it was the milk, whether it was or not, so this bias cuts both ways. Campylobacter is the most common cause of diarrheal illness in the United States, and it effects children the most. It can come from many different vectors.
You are right that there are problems on some farms. However, the punitive and vindictive attitude of the industry-beholden regulators does nothing to solve these problems, if anything it is designed to make them worse.
I’m sorry that your young son got sick. I hope that he has recovered.
Richard sent out the notification e-mail on March 11, which as far as I know was as soon as he learned of a possible connection to Family Farms milk. Did you not receive that e-mail? Please contact Richard and Annette and make sure you’re on their distribution list. Perhaps people in the group were talking amongst themselves prior to that, but I believe that Richard acted as soon as he possibly could.
Absolutely, the coop should have a system in place for contacting everyone, and this is a good wake-up call to double-check that.
cp
I can not eat the SAD even if I wanted to so please do not take from me the unfettered ability to buy and consume my ELIXIR my "DRUG" my king of all foods raw dairy. Do I as a lone individual have any rights anymore? Or is it just hail caesar and get with the program handed down from the central planners?
So, how do you justify this:
"Cows create a lot of waste. They do it in the barn and in the fields. They do it while they’re being milked. It’s liquid and it splatters. It’s on their legs and tails and udders. Preventing waste from getting in the milk is all-important.
Every morning and every evening, Brown ushers his herd into the milking parlor, eight at a time. He dips each cow’s teats in an iodine solution, which helps reduce, but not eliminate, bacteria. Then he wipes them with a cloth. He gets a fresh cloth after four cows.
It’s easy to see potential problems. He doesn’t exactly study the udders to make sure he’s cleaned every last inch. And it’s messy. On a recent visit, one cow, who was sore, fussed as Brown started the milking device. She pooped, splattering Brown’s face, but he didn’t seem to notice. She fussed so much that the device fell to the floor, and the cow stepped on it. When Brown finally got her off it, he sprayed it with a hose. Then he put it on the next cow.
"When they get upset, this is the result," he said later, wiping his face and arms. Then he was ready for the next group of eight."
You state, I’m sure Dr. Beals is a very nice man, but some of the statements he makes about raw milk are baffling and do not fit the science.
If one approaches the science with an open and honest mind as I believe Dr Beals has then one cannot but be humbled by our lack of knowledge with respect to disease and illness.
To suggest that your interpretation of the science is the be all and end all as to the cause and management of disease is the epitome of arrogance. The current disease hypothesis is whats indeed baffling and there are too many unanswered questions for me to be at comfort with it. As well the methodologies used in an attempt to manipulate and control organisms are a sad reflection of our disrespect for the current scientific knowledge that we do have and the laws of nature.
Ken Conrad
I choose to take my chance and roll the dice with raw dairy. I already took my chance with the SAD and lost but thanks to raw dairy and real food I have been given new life.
As a result of relatively few additional reports of illness received from this calling campaign, deliveries were continued (the lab test came back with negative pathogens on March 9, although campylobacter was not tested-for by the lab, presumably due to the age of the sample, which after many days would not likely have shown campylobacter in any case) through March 5, the day of which you complain.
It was not until March 11 that ANY report of campylobacter in a stool sample was received. Immediately deliveries on March 12 and 15 were cancelled until a first-milking-fresh sample of milk (and water supplies at the farm) were taken Monday morning, March 15, and hand-carried to the lab within 4 hours of sampling (a sample taken March 11 got lost in the ExpressMail system and the lab never received it). Those samples came back negative for campylobacter on March 17, and deliveries were resumed that day.
All this detail has been shared with the Michigan health authorities, and we all hope to get to the bottom of this matter.
While we are chatting about nicities of how to keep cow poop out of raw milk the dairy barns and the dairy herds across OUR nation are being BURNED to the ground. How many of us really understand we won’t have even dead milk to drink in a few years if this continues. What do we do I don’t know. I had some interaction with the good lawmakers in Harrisburg and one of the now VIPs in congress the best I can report on them is LIPSERVICE and LIPSERVICE and LIPSERVICE no remendy there IMO none.
Shall this prediction come true " 20% of NY dairy farms will be forced to closed down within the next 90 days" Is this a dire national emergency or am I just filled with fear?
Thank you for all of your information on Ecoli. I agree that it is the antibiotic lysing of ecoli pathogen cells and their shiga toxins that preciptates HUS and causes issues with renal tissues.
I will not discuss our settlement topics….please remember we are under a binding settlement order.
The most important thing….the kids are well and active. For this I am deeply grateful.
You must remember that many ecoli pathogens have become antibiotic resistant. That is why the national pediatrics standards have been changed to reflect this emerging threat.
Whether the HUS is caused by ecoli breaking up by antibiotic therapy effect or because of antibiotic resistance and then rampant growth is a subject of current study.
I will say however that children will now never be denied health care because of preexisting condition in American because of the landmark health care legislation passed last evening. So that is not a challenge for our familes in American again. We are a better country today than we were yesterday.
What I have serious issue with is the down right denial of access to meaningful science and research for all raw milk issues and study. Most connected big universities consider it settled science and rely on pasteurization. Case closed.
This is not only corrupt but denies the facts and history of raw milk. It also excuses the roles played by CAFO and antibotic abuse in ag right now.
Ecoli was not caused by an organic grass fed cows…it came from CAFO systems that can get away with filth and use and abuse antibiotics.
Lastly, the idea that pathogens do not ever survive pasteurization is a flat out lie. The standards for pasteurization invite huge pathogen loads and in the end bacteria overcome resistance by change. Change that by design will allow subpopulations to become resitant to heat. TB and Salmonella and even Listeria have become heat resistant.
This debate will rage for years.
What we need are solid proven raw milk standards for farmers and the universities to back farmers so we can do a better job. Right now the universities are panders to Wallstreet and Food Inc, Monsanto and CAFO grant systems. The words raw milk can not be spoken. In the Davis Milk Genome ( Dr. Bruce German GOT MILK? Funded studies ) …they used the description of "breast milk and not raw milk". But yet the study was for the benefits of cows milk!!?? Stinks of $$politics.
In CA right now the dairy system is in complete collapse with loss of dairies everyday and massive cow kills going on with milk dumping. This will not last. Neither will the mantra of Get Big or Get Out.
Priority one….produce safe healthy delicious raw milk for our wonderful immune strong consumers. The rest is background noise. The proof is in the consumers health. Bottom line…OPDC has the healthiest consumers on the planet.
Farmers connected to happy healthy customers. That is the local model.
I am hard at work creating the first ever super " OPDC Cow-Connection" raw milk vending machine. I love this new business model. As far as Bill is concerned…. it could be argued that this is just one degree off of on farm sales. This is a sale that is far direct. It will show videos everyweek with updated mesages from OPDC. Also, we may be able to capture short video messages from our consumers as well. The surveilance video can be tasked to do remote viewing and testimonials.
It is a brave new world.
Mark
You can eliminate your competitors two ways: 1) outlaw them or failing that 2) drive your competitors out of business by raising the cost of business and creating new barriers to entry. Even better to do both. This is what is happening now with raw milk.
Mandatory insurance raises the cost of entry and business for the small producers producing the healthy raw milk. The only ones to afford this will be the major players, many of whom are behind the production of the dirty for pasteurization milk. Many small dairies won’t be able to afford it and have little to no room to raise prices.
If consumers find insurance and other expensive rules necessary let them buy from those producers who have that. But to mandate such is tyranny, no matter how good you think your reasons are. If it is really so necessary as you think it is it will be very expensive (due to all the sick people) and so one can expect very few insurers or very expensive policies. Either of which will drive raw milk producers out of business. Which is really the true goal to begin with.
"We are a better country today than we were yesterday."
Never before in our country’s history has a citizen been forced, at the point of a gun, to buy a government mandated product simply because they are a citizen. Now we are.
This is better? Man, you love government regulation more than Marler or Lykke.
Bob Hayles
http://juicymaters.com/blog1/?page_id=497
You seem to forget that in those socialist European countries, with long history of radical working-class labor movements, where for-profit healthcare was abolished decades ago, RAW MILK IS BOTH LEGAL, AND TRADITIONAL RAW MILK CHEESES ARE PROTECTED BY LAW FROM MASS-PRODUCED IMITATORS.
For the record, I am highly skeptical of Obama’s healthcare plan, because it is more designed to benefit big pharma, insurance companies, and hospital chains. All the more reason we need to fight for real universal healthcare, which of course should include preventative, natural, and holistic care REGARDLESS OF YOUR SOCIO-ECONOMIC CLASS.