I’m one of these people who believe that seemingly intractable divisions can be resolved by people with good intentions. In other words, when both sides of a political issue truly want a resolution, then they make it happen through compromise. We’ve seen it happen in Northern Ireland and in the U.S. over civil rights. Not to say the problems go away, but major components are resolved enough that significant progress can be made.
The raw milk issue is a political problem, one with heavily ideological components. We’re not in a position to resolve the issue here, but we’ve had some excellent debates and discussions over various aspects of the problem, like warning labels and signage, milk testing protocols, and most recently, about research priorities to gain more knowledge about the benefits or hazards of raw milk.
I thought we had a pretty good discussion going here following my previous post. Mark McAfee had some excellent suggestions about the importance of involving raw milk opponents in any research project. Concerned Person expressed a preference for a focus on safety issues. Don Wittinger talked about exploring effects of raw milk on the elderly. Miguel argued that it all starts with soil quality, and took issue with Lykke over whether private labs are suitable testing sources. Bryan and Hugh Betcha seem to have a penchant for the Pottenger study of cats and raw milk out of the 1940s.
Sure, there were some semi-hostile back-and-forths between Lykke and Hugh Betcha. But I think for Lykke and Concerned Person, in particular, just to participate on this blog requires a willingness to dish it out as well as take it. In other words, sharp elbows are almost a requirement for surviving in the hostile territory those two find here. In that context, I thought Lykke’s lance-an-abscess metaphor was a not inappropriate response to Hugh Betcha’s initial outburst.
But it seemed to be her questioning of Pottenger’s 1940s experiments with diets of cats that completely undidHugh Betcha. He went off on a rant that totally undermined an otherwise excellent discussion, by getting personal and suggesting she doesn’t belong on this blog. Sorry Hugh, much as I enjoy many of your comments, you don’t decide who belongs on this blog (nor do I, by the way, it’s a completely open forum, though we heavily frown on mob tactics).
The spark that set off Hugh Betcha seemed to be the questioning of the Pottenger data. Now, I recently did a survey of research on raw milk in connection with my book, and decided to not even include the Pottenger work. He may have been an excellent scientist, and there may be some wonderful insights there, but it is very difficult to get your arms around the research so as to write intelligently about it, for reasons that Lykke well descrobes. Maybe I was right and maybe I was wrong, but I concluded there was other more persuasive research supporting raw milk, and focused on that.
My point is that the Pottenger is obviouslu very important to Hugh Betcha, his sacred cow, as it were. And once someone insulted his sacred cow, well, he just resorted to fighting dirty.
The anti-raw-milk crowd is just as guilty of holding onto sacred cows. Just take a look at the U.S. Food and Drug Administration’s presentation “On the Safety of Raw Milk” and you’ll see one (or possibly dozens, once you get into it). That highly suspect 2005 presentation is pretty much the first thing that comes up on the FDA’s site when people search under “raw milk,” so I’d say the agency holds onto it as a sacred cow.
It’s so easy when dealing with highly divisive issues like raw milk, especially when the discussion gets difficult or testy, to simply throw up your hands and hang on desperately to your sacred cows. Not only does it generally accomplish little that’s positive, it actually undermines the efforts of well meaning individuals.
Here is one for us all…..where is the raw milk?????!!!
Time magazine just listed the most recent food borne outbreaks…no raw milk.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1907168,00.html
Processed foods and commercially produced monocultural agri system dead soil foods are listed and unsafe and furthermore they depress our immune systems. Our FDA CDC pathogen lists are getting longer and longer as our immunity gets weaker and weaker and the bugs get smarter and smarter. Who is the fool…..this is surely not the way to better things.
Grass fed raw milk with its good bacteria and active enzymes point to a better way and we know it.
Mark
lyke, cp and others who think they have the right or authority to curtail my freedons need to understand that they do not.
raw milk is a political issue. but it shouldn’t be. that’s my beef. food is political gmo’s are being forced upon us with no way to completely avoid them. monsanto owning the fda is unacceptable and like other freedom and liberty issues i will not compromise.
likely i’m fighting a losing battle but that’s only because americans in general are drugged and sedated into letting someone else take care of it.
it seems to me, and believe me that i was one of those who "let someone else deal with it" for way too long. in my life it was a wakeup call that made me realize that no one else is dealing with it, so i’ll have to start standing up for my own rights myself. in standing up for my rights i realize i am by default standing up for everyones rights. even lyke and cp’s.
i want nothing to do with telling anyone else what to do EXCEPT do not step on anyone elses rights because you think you have authority or are smarter then me and therefore can decide for me what rights i need to surrender.
the problem i see with compromise on issues of liberty are the defination of the word compromise. i don’t see how it could work its an oxymoron, catch-22, can’t get there from here sortta issue. liberty is liberty and we as a nation are where we are today because someone decided that liberty could be a compromise.
liberty + compromise = compromised liberty.
anyway. i’ll turn the rant off (at least until i can’t stand reading about how someone can make better choices for me then me)
Personally, I’ve bitten my fingers here the last few weeks, not feeling it worthwhile to contribute….when what you ask is ignored, what you write is twisted to fit the alternative view. You ask direct questions, and get ridiculous ones fired back…you question the obvious campaign against raw milk and you’re an afficiando of ‘bombs’…I say this is BS…and Hugh is absolutely, totally right on the mark. Now I understand that you have to take the ‘open door’ position, to encourage all sides to participate here…even though you are a pro raw milk type…but jeez, this latest post is total CRAP. Sacred cows my ass. Giving credence to the ridiculousness that cp and lykke spew is totally wrong, and equating the deceivers with those that put forth the Truth about raw milk is totally irresponsible.
The notion of Lykke directing raw milk research is almost as idiotic as and innocent man paying extortion money to some scum sucking lawyer…..
The idea that raw milk is the way to get conventional farmers ‘profitable’ is also a recipe for disaster, and could only be put forth by someone who is more concerned with money, rather than the milk. The last thing that the raw milk community needs is bunches of grain shoveling farmer getting into it because of how much money could be made.
Also, and lastly…my rant is almost over….the idea that its testing that makes a product safe is also totally bunk. Safety is had by procedure, and care that is taken by the person that harvests and packages the milk. Look for the farmer that actually milks his cows and feeds it to his family, rather than one that hires some minimum wage immigrant to slap on the suction and is figuring out how many more trucks they can ship out, and you’ll find the truly safe milk.
This blog discussion has degenerated lately…and I really wonder if it’s worth the time.
Raw milk deserves better.
BTW, I don’t recall getting an invitation to the Berkeley Sailing Club – bummer, sounds like fun. Who’s doing the film – Michael Moore, lol?
I feel it is a "freedom" issue too. Why is anyone required to compromise about what they wish to eat? Why does another have any right to control what I or anyone else wants to consume? It is milk we are talking about, in its natural state, not cocaine, or meth. Yet it is treated like street drugs, why? What is the reasoning for compromising?
I have to agree with Mark, "Processed foods and commercially produced monocultural agri system dead soil foods are listed and unsafe and furthermore they depress our immune systems." This statement is very true, and tptb only encourage/promote it.
There have been numerous studies regarding animals feeds and the changes it causes in the product; grass fed vs grain fed.
http://www.kansascity.com/living/food/story/1266070-p2.html
Here is another statement regarding grass vs grain fed, if it were untrue, I am sure the paper would be forced to retract it.
If fighting for a right to consume foods of choice is hanging on to a sacred cow, then so be it. What will be next?
and you think this is ok? these are good "leaders"?
these people who think they are better then me are sadly mistaken, tell them for me lyke, they will have to murder me to silence me. too too many good americans have died defending our rights and liberties. i doubt i’m alone and if it’s war / revolution / or overthrowing our gov’t then so be it.
and you being willing and complicient to "work" with them speaks volumes. you as well as them lyke have lost your way. and you want me to listen to you? or respect your position / opinion?
i don’t think so….
It’s true that Lykke doesn’t answer legitimate questions. It’s also true that sometimes, s/he presents some valid questions that don’t get answered either. But his/her agenda and receptivity changes from one week to the next. Sometimes I wonder if drugs are involved, or maybe blood-sugar issues – just when I think I understand Lykke’s position, it lapses into a Jekyll Hyde persona.
We end up screaming and spitting at each other. Some are threatening divorce. But there are kids involved. Grandparents, too. Diabetics, allergies, arthritis etc – a potential resolution for the "healthcare" problem – a truly preventive system with just one rule – that we follow nature’s lessons. That’s worth hanging in there.
We should continue this roundtable – I think David is doing a great job of being objective and impartial, and I’d nominate him to moderate any meeting. Leave your guns at the door, and take your hats off, please.
-Blair
p.s. I want to see health studies on effects of raw milk and raw milk products on asthma, arthritis, bone density, diabetes and obesity I also loved Miguel’s soil and feed test ideas – that’s real useful data, and simple to implement. Still needs some money though.. What frequency interval would you recommend for soil/milk tests? 4 times/year? Would you want 3 year, 5 year data???
Also, I’ve been told that weeds only grow in poor soil. I’ve got wild grasses around my compost bin but not prolific, and none of the other pesky weeds – which do grow about 18 inches from it. There’s a lot of eggshells and kitchen waste, probably not enough soil or wood I’ve also poured some whey in there, and lately, some dry kibble dog food about 5 years old – hate to put it in the trash….
.
Thanks,
Blair
What about my invitation?
Mark
I cross posted, sorry about that. Responded with a question under the last entry.
There is nothing left to compromise or bargin away we have already reached the destination TPTB intended for us SERFDOM [which includes financial slavery] the only way out is a UTURN!
And "in a time of UNIVERSAL DECEIT none DARE call it _______"?
My rant [for now] is finished is there ANY truth in what I said?
The word compromise has become so beloved in our programmed world that we tend to forget what its for. In its proper form, compromise is what happens when two people want the same piece of pie. But rights are not a fixed-sum resource. To suggest compromise on rights is tantamount to suggesting that some have them, others dont.
We often discuss options for government actions as if we merely must choose or invent the best program. But that skips over the critically important question, "What part of our constitution allows for this?" Every single program we enact, every program we implement, takes from one and gives to another. None of it is compatible with our constitution, or with goodness. In this constitutional republic a majority may never vote away the rights of a minority. Leap-frogging over that little impediment in order to implement this or that good idea tends only to engage the law of unintended consequences, and make terrible trouble.
Anyway, science is not the god we make it out to be. The astounding number of safety-related drug recalls–all occurring after exhaustive and expensive study–ought to be ample evidence of that. Research sure, then discuss, teach, debate, and even evangelize. Share all the information you can. All of that is good and necessary. But never force an idea onto someone else.
(As an aside, I find Pottenger’s studies and his conclusions reasonably valid, and am not sure why his research might be considered more difficult to understand than others. It seems to me that the typical double-blind, controlled factor studies–the ones we are so enamored of today–are often difficult to draw valid and FUNCTIONAL conclusions from simply because they are so very narrow.)
Off Topic but I just got an email from Food Democracy Now! who asked me to sign a petition for Bill Marler as Under Secretary for Food Safety and Inspection Service (FSIS). Guess what will happen to raw milk if that happens….
Also, in case anyone was wondering. NYAg&Markets did return my call. Will Francis left me a message and I just need to find the time to call him back. Good stuff.
Many of us, I suspect, have arrived here because of some Significant experience, or connected series of disconcerting experiences; other may have just drifted in the door and stayed for the scintillating(?) conversation. For dedicated real-milk drinkers, the possible loss of the preferred beverage due to liberties being removed would be intolerable.
I think most of us will recognize this group in an article about a non-Obama movement at http://www.paulchefurka.ca/ (At least read about the caterpillar metamorphosis about half way down.)
An individual in crisis may experience a sudden transformation or awakening as a response to an intolerable situation. The current crisis of civilization is starting to impact hundreds millions of individuals around the globe, especially since the world was plunged into the economic crisis that is further compounding our accelerating ecological, environmental, energy and social crises. The sense of imminence created by this convergence is causing enormous numbers of people to wake up and wonder WTF has been going on while we dutifully lived out the consumerist dream. While we were sleeping, that dream seems to have become a nightmare – as the materialist utopia we were promised morphed into a cruel, life-destroying hoax .
This uncomfortable awakening is manifesting in a massive, unpredicted global change, as reported in Paul Hawken’s seminal book "Blessed Unrest" and documented on WiserEarth.org. A spontaneous global movement consisting of two million or more small, independent, grass-roots groups, working on local environmental, social justice and spiritual issues of all kinds, is spreading like an Australian wildfire through every city in every country on the face of the planet. It is the largest, most diverse, most autonomous, most exuberant, most hopeful movement humanity has ever produced.
This enormous number of individual groups, each composed of a small number of individual people, is unconsciously shifting the consciousness of the entire human enterprise.
Just as seeds spread their genetic material into the new plants they become, these groups act as seeds to spread their own cultural memetic material their sustainable values. The space for these values to grow will be opened up as the guardian institutions of the old value system rupture due to the converging crisis.
They may act as humanity’s imaginal cells. Imaginal are the cells that accumulate in a caterpillar’s body toward the end of its adolescence and trigger its metamorphosis into a butterfly. Here’s a description of the process:
When a caterpillar nears its transformation time, it begins to eat ravenously, consuming everything in sight. Tiny cells, that biologists actually call imaginal cells, begin to appear in the caterpillar’s body. These cells are wholly different from caterpillar cells. At first, the caterpillars immune system perceives these new cells as enemies, and attacks them. But the imaginal cells are not deterred. They continue to appear, in ever greater numbers, recognizing each other and bonding together, until the new cells are numerous enough to organize into clumps called "imaginal disks".
When enough imaginal disks have appeared (which is only a few percent of the caterpillar’s body weight), the caterpillars immune system is overwhelmed. Attaching to a branch, it forms a chrysalisthe enclosing shell within which the caterpillar’s body then becomes a nutritious soup for the growth of the butterfly.
Will these {2 million} groups actually promote a broader shift in consciousness? There is evidence that this is already happening.
Besides being the most intriguing description of how a caterpillar becomes a butterfly that Ive seen, the article’s value seems that we, here, are unconsciously doing our part in something wholly unprecedented. When tempers flare and unkindness is in the air, lets imagine that there is a global miracle taking place in front of our eyes and we unwittingly(?) are doing our necessary part. All of us.
Actually he would never say things like John Sheehan. I think Marler has a brain…Sheehan does not. Sheehan is a sheep and a fool-tool of industry. Marler grew up drinking raw milk and has never advocated a ban of raw milk. He has admitted to mixed feelings about raw milk. Mixed is yet to be defined??
What would be dangerous is if Marler lost his rebel attitude and became a dunce like Sheehan and his group think "uniformed raw milk police" at the FDA.
Marler is passionate and he has done some unethical things… he does what he has to do to win. That is dangerous. So I am going to reserve my judgment on Marler.
My gut says he would not take the job….it would take too much of his time and it would be a huge paycut. There are too many sick kids parents looking to him as the great white knight in shining armour that will find, pilfer and execute the guilty for them. With the current paradigm of sickness in full swing…why would he leave the field of battle that rewards him like a King. He is truly the King of Sickness. If he does leave….and take the job, there could be far worse candidates. Not sure if he would fit in…he likes to speak his mind to much and he would get poltiically dumped by those that need a puppet. Not a thinker or a Rebel. Washington and the FDA is a Kingdom of followers that are sent to represent industry. A King on a mission ( with little affiliation to industry ) to make millions off the insurance exploitation of sick kids would not fit in very well.
We will see what happens. I do not think Sheehan ever tasted raw milk….at least Marler was one of us long ago and he remembers it in his distant gut memory.
Raw Milk haunts and troubles him. Thats a dramatic improvement from our current FDA leadership ( title only ) that includes" Industry Puppet Brain Dead Russian Roulette players". They even refuse to follow their own laws…They refuse to answer the FDA CItizens Petition ( amending CFR 1240.61 ) that was legally served on them in January2009. These guys are criminals as well.
Lykke and CP…can you please explain ( or venture a wild ass guess ) why the FDA refuses to anwer a legally served "Citizens Petition?" packed with six inches of research and data from CDFA testing in CA. Showing and providing hard proof that there are truly two raw milks in America. One for people and one for the pastuerizer.
Is the FDA beyond the reach of our democracy?
Mark
Thistles have a part to play,a job to do.I know people go to the store and buy thistle seed at exorbitant prices to attract finches to their yard.They have a large tap root that brings moisture up to the topsoil from the subsoil.The root helps loosen packed soil.They produce exudates that feed the soil bacteria.I know that they are terrible to step on barefoot and that hay bales with thistles in them are miserable to handle.If they are in a place I don"t want them ,I just cut them down.Many of the plants that are called weeds like disturbed soil.Thistles haven"t been a problem in the hay fields or pastures since a few years after I stopped plowing.They seem to die out over time in undisturbed land.There are still thistles here and there in the fields,but we have lots of finches and they eat most of the seeds.
http://www.primalseeds.org/weeds.htm
"Weeds cause a lot of thoughtless reactions, provoking misplaced fixations about cleanliness.
What are weeds? they are colonising plants where soil has been disturbed. They are the first steps towards a balanced ecosystem.
They do not drive other species away but merely fill the gaps where other plants cannot be supported by the soil. They are a symptom not the cause of a problem.
Here are a few of their qualities:
-deep root pumps for leached nutrients.
-fiberise the soil, countering compaction.
-hold the soil from erosion.
-help bring water to the top soil.
-they absorb excess salt.
-rich compost material, probably the best source in the city.
-provide a diverse diet to animals in the pasture.
-can be used in companion planting or as a sacrificial crop.
-they aid organisms in the soil through exudation.
-show whether soil is poor, acidic, compacted or alkaline.
-they’re great in salads, teas, pipes, medicines and bouquets."
"What are weeds? they are colonising plants where soil has been disturbed. They are the first steps towards a balanced ecosystem."
Weeds are natures way of bringing ecosystems back into balance when they have been disturbed.
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/milk-thistle-000266.htm
http://www.agriculture.gov.sk.ca/Default.aspx?DN=9f9ebf1f-6e30-451f-a1ea-d711a59f5d21
http://www.ahrq.gov/CLINIC/epcsums/milktsum.htm
http://www.manitoba.ca/agriculture/crops/medicinal/bkq00s15.html
If you have enough thistles, maybe you could sell them to a processor? Never hurts to ask.
We are plagued by pigweed this year.
Liberty is being free from restriction or control, the right to act, believe, or express yourself in your own way, it is being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. It is the right to engage in actions without control or interference: Our liberties are supposed to be protected by the Bill of Rights. Liberty is freedom.
But when the brutal raids on peaceful farmers began I quickly realized this isn’t "normal" nor is it freedom what I had believed was peace and freedom and liberty and safety was just an ILLUSION a MYTH I had been taught.
My view of freedom and liberty is very very different now perhaps the simplest way to state it would be to say THE ABILITY TO JUST SAY NO TO OUR WOULD BE MASTERS is the essence of what freedom once was.
Just thought I’d let you know.
Great analogy use of the butterfly. It feels to me like you are right. I just hope our "soup" moment is a short one. We definitely need to transform into butterflies!