There are a lot of things I thought I’d see before I saw raw milk being sold in Maryland. Like peace between the Palestinians and Israelis. Or North Korea give up its nuclear weapons. Or the Chicago Cubs win the World Series.
But here it is, October 21, 2015, Back to the Future Day (and the day the Cubs were supposed to win the World Series) and a Maryland dairy producer is legally selling raw milk in the FDA’s home state. You have to understand that Maryland is not just any state, but the home of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, the staunchest official opponent of raw milk in the country. And Maryland’s first sanctioned seller is not just any raw milk producer, mind you, but Sally Fallon Morell, one of the country’s most visible proponents of raw milk and leader of the Weston A. Price Foundation.
According to an article on the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund’s web site, “P.A. Bowen Farmstead of Brandywine, has obtained approval to sell raw pet milk from the Maryland Department of Agriculture. P.A. Bowen Farmstead, owned and operated by Weston A. Price Foundation President and FTCLDF board member Sally Fallon Morell along with her husband Geoffrey, has begun selling raw milk at its on-farm store.”
It seems Fallon Morell exploited a little-known rule that allows the Maryland Department of Agriculture to approve the sale of pet food. Just go to the agency’s State Chemist, call the number on the page, and someone will walk you through the process, which is supposed to take a couple weeks. Fallon Morell, though, is understood to have waited several months to obtain her pet food permit, the first for raw milk ever issued in the state. Raw milk sold as pet food is the means for distribution and sales in a number of states, including Florida, Georgia, and North Carolina.
To fully appreciate my difficulty in comprehending this new reality, you have to understand how intensively the FDA has fought against the sale of raw milk in Maryland. The FTCLDF describes part of the battle, when it states: “The sale of raw milk has long been illegal in Maryland. In 2006, the Maryland Department of Health and Mental Hygiene (MDHMH) issued an emergency regulation banning herdshare contracts; a court challenge to the herdshare ban was unsuccessful.” The FTCLDF also notes that the state’s legislature has beaten back efforts to pass legislation to allow herdshares.
The FTCLDF only tells part of the story, though. The FDA also mounted a major year-long investigation, followed by a two-year enforcement campaign, against a Maryland food club, run by Liz Reitzig, and its Pennsylvania raw milk supplier, Dan Allgyer. As I described at length in my book, Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Food Rights”, FDA agents secretly joined the food club in 2010 and ordered raw milk, which they then sent to federal labs for testing in hopes of finding pathogens.
Even though the FDA didn’t find pathogens, it still got the U.S. Justice Department to file suit in federal court seeking a permanent injunction against Allgyer, which was obtained in 2012. Shortly after the FDA obtained the injunction, Allgyer shut down his farm rather than deal further with the agency. (The illustration above shows the cover of one of the legal briefs filed in 2011 against Pennsylvania farmer Daniel Allgyer, to prevent raw milk from being distributed in Maryland; the Justice Department misspelled his name.)
That didn’t stop Reitzig from finding other raw milk sources outside Maryland, and federal and state authorities haven’t interfered further with her food club’s operations. Now, Reitzig wonders if her long-time dream of supplying her food club with Maryland-produced raw milk might be a reality. “I’ll be eager to see if other raw milk farmers get their permits,” she told me. We’ll learn if the Fallon Morell pet food permit is an aberration that slipped by the MD-FDA raw milk opponents, or whether it marks a real shift in policy.
David, maybe this article will help to get the FDA’s attention so that this can be shut down… you know, just in case it “slipped by the MD-FDA raw milk opponents.”
Amanda, your suggestion that I am somehow trying to sabotage Sally Fallon Morell’s raw milk initiative is pure BS. I know you’re not great with facts, but try to remember one key point here: this story about Maryland giving Sally Fallon Morell a permit to sell raw milk as pet food originated with the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund (see the link in my post). The Weston A. Price Foundation has been a big financial backer of FTCLDF, and Fallon Morell is a member of its board. They all clearly decided to be open and public about all the strange connections here (between MD, FDA, WAPF, Fallon Morell, etc.)
I am not new to drinking raw milk, have to get mine off the back of a truck, is still illegal in my state, but I am ashamed to say that I have know so little about your freedom to sell raw milk battles, I will humbly and seriously learn all I can about it, But Congratulation,!!! So glad I came to your blog and can educate myself in many ways, thanks you so much!
Reminds be of a certain Canadian raw milk farmer that has been looking to,?, not sure what…legalize raw milk , or see to its accessibility …while only for him and the people on his list of ” with me ‘s”. Seems like the road to social activism can lead to self interest over any common good.
Jack Brody
Whoever you are. I do enjoy reading your missiles which do harm you more than to whom they are directed.
Whatever your intentions are , it does not at all reflect the reality.
May your vindictive mind find peace at some point in your life.
Didn’t you yourself say that FDA has agents reading this blog on the regular?
edit: David – Didn’t you yourself say that FDA has agents reading this blog on the regular?
Right. The regulators follow the FTCLDF too. If Fallon wanted to keep it quiet, I expect she wouldn’t have posted it there.
Did you not understand his response? They are openingly challenging them. This is how you create change. If they are backing off other farmers need to know. The tyrants have to be tested and pushed back or nothing will ever change. This is a strategical decision.
OK, well perhaps I did misunderstand. If so then my mistake. The way the article is worded just sounded to me like a thinly veiled challenge for the FDA to go fix that loophole that Sally “exploited” in case they didn’t catch it yet… but I apologize if that’s not the case.
On a lighter note (or not, depending on who you ask) perhaps this went unnoticed because the FDA is too busy trying to figure out why FCLO won’t oxidize. lol =/
In an article today in Food Safety News, it says that Pete Kennedy posted an article on the Farm-to-Consumer website about the raw milk sales for pets at P.A. Bowen in Maryland. http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2015/10/maryland-dairy-farm-licensed-to-sell-raw-milk-for-pets/#.Vik9R34X1QI
back to basics, please. That’d be : the milk and delivery thereof
… the humane treatment of the cattle is a significant factor in the Campaign for REAL MILK … it’s note-able that Sally Fallon’s farm milks with co-pulsation machines. Why not the best?! (for our pets????)
Gordon, tell us more about co-pulsation machines.
co-pulsation milking is an approach to machine milking of cows / goats / sheepies, which uses a qualitatively -different rhythm and pressure of the sucking action. Although I have to see it operate in the real world, what’s available via the internet, convinces me that’s a very important improvement for the health of the animal’s udder
all the info. is to be found at this URL = http://www.copulsation.com/
Gordon, would you have any thoughts on how co-pulsation might compare to hand-milking on the health of the teat?
Hand milking is entirely mechanical and is the least natural way of milking a cow. I would think from a cow’s perspective and her overall udder health that a relaxed rhythmic technique is everything when it comes to hand milking.
Machine milking resembles that of a calf sucking, in that it uses both suction and mechanical action via pulsation. Pulsation in turn, provides message in order to maintain blood circulation in the teat end. Co-pulsation is a technique that appears to be much better at stimulating the circulation of blood in that teat end. The best way for an individual to understand the importance of pulsation during milking would be for them to place a vacuum cleaner hose end on the underside of their forearm for about three minutes and watch what happens.
The calf’s sucking action also has the added benefit of saliva (yet to be mimicked), whose main purpose among many other things, is to provide, while nursing, lubrication of both the cow’s teat and the mucus layer of the calf’s oral cavity.
Wow that is very interesting, Ken! I would have just assumed that hand-milking would be more natural than using a machine, but apparently not. Sounds kinda like a breast pump… but for cows. =)
Thank you for this explanation Ken. If cows are milked by machine, do you know if they are less likely to develop mastitis than hand-milked cows? If a hand-milked cow develops mastitis, could increased calf-sucking and cessation of hand-milking possibly resolve the mastitis? Could a poor hand-milking technique be an underlying reason for why a cow develops mastitis?
Lynn,
Just like a rhythmic technique is everything when milking a cow by hand, so it is when milking with a machine, with the added need to keep the milking equipment in a good state of repair. This means, servicing pulsators, vacuume pump and vacuume regulator on ongoing basis and changing worn out inflations as needed.
Cows can get mastitis no matter what method is used to milk them. As to whether or not they are less likely to get mastitis if they are milked with a machine; I’m inclined to think that they are, simply because the machine mimics more closely the sucking action of the calf and tends to be more consistent. This however, is largely dependent on the care with which the operator uses the machine as well as the positioning of the cow’s teats and its internal and external physiology.
Cows are creatures of habit, so no mater how you milk them, it’s important to establish a patient, consistent, routine and stick with it in order to limit physical and mental stress on the animal. This, along with the fact that a cow’s udder physiology is naturally designed to deal and work with microbes to stay healthy is the key to limiting mastitis in ones herd.
Allowing a couple of calves to suck on a cow that has mastitis definitely helps to clear it up, irrespective of how the cow is milked. If the cow is producing a large amount of milk it is best to milk her out first before you place the calves on her. This encourages the calves to really work on her udder and message it in order to keep a fresh supply of milk flowing in and out.
Wonderful news ! Congrats to those of you with wisdom and who kept pushing forward.
There’s only a rule against raw milk in some states because of money that’s getting pulled away from the pasteurized dairies and because some Congress people are being paid by the dairies with campaign contributions. This is totally ridiculous. Sally’s a terrific person and helping to do great things for people so I hope she’s fine.
A couple of years ago, we had a bill in KY that simply confirmed that cowshares are legal here. In a meeting, IN A STATE SENATOR’S OFFICE, one of the largest milk producers in the state claimed that, “raw milk will NEVER be legal in KY.” We’ll see 🙂
Sally, it definitely takes a lot of persistence, and patience. Maybe Liz Reitzig can give you some help. 🙂
I remember that meeting only too well Sally! The Bill was actually a bit broader than just cow shares, it protected all shared ownership arrangements involving any animals in the Commonwealth, but it was the bill’s history as originally a raw milk bill that brought the heat…
Good news, indeed ! Thuggery still represents our “government’s” approach to keeping control of the population, but this is a bit of a chink in their armor. All good.
Being from the other side of the pond (using “whilst” is a dead give away), perhaps Amanda doesn’t understand the politics or culture of this, or perhaps she’s just sour from the long slog of defending the indefensible. This is nothing but good news, and should be shouted from the rooftops. In this case, public knowledge is protective against the thugs. Thank you, David, for bringing it to our attention. Now I’m off to the airport for four days off from life’s incessant demands.
Great to read a positive post, though THANK YOU for your diligent, challenging, and valuable reporting to date on the FCLO issue.
“Being from the other side of the pond (using “whilst” is a dead give away)”
lol no
This *is* wonderful news. May sales from Sally Fallon Morrell’s farm (and many other farms as well) add to the prosperity and vibrancy of the state of Maryland.
Yet, the FDA with Palm grease from the Pharmaceuticals approves high profit poison drugs that kill and not cure anything with a rate of 100,000 dead citizens each year. Why is this not brought to light???
Congratulations to all concerned! A win for one farmer is a win for all.
David, didn’t Liz Reitzig have a lot to do with this too? I recall, year after year after year she lobbied for raw milk rights in Annapolis.
Thank you to fearless, relentless and tireless Liz Reitzig for your extraordinary activism! You never give up on the things you believe in. You should write a book!
Thank you Cathy–
Yes, I, and many wonderful people, have spent countless hours in Annapolis and Baltimore creating the foundation. But, most importantly, we have continued to access fresh milk and make it available to others despite the prohibition against it.
Like with the example happening in Canada, when people take ownership, and take action we make changes.
I am excited to see other reputable farmers who I have worked with for years be able to legally provide their products. I am an advocate for Maryland farmers and those who make their living off the land and soil. Many of us are eager to support the men and women of Maryland who farm for a living.
Mark, what’s going on at OPDC.? You’ve been shut down for 7 days.
Mary, if you really wanted to know what’s going on at OPDC, you could have googled and found this story: http://www.dairyreporter.com/Regulation-Safety/CDFA-lifts-Organic-Pastures-raw-milk-quarantine-after-further-Campylobacter-tests, as I just did. OPDC milk should be back in stores today. What you really wanted to do was poke your thumb in Mark’s eye and coyly alert all of us about the recall, which was ordered on 10/16 and lifted on 10/20. The recall was based on finding a single sample with campylobacteria in it. No illnesses reported.
Mary, as David reports, the story I cited was obviously incorrect about the ban being lifted on 10/20. I apologize for being snarky in saying that you could have just googled to find out what was going on, although looking at OPDC’s Facebook site apparently would have answered your question.
I hope Mark will share with us what was going on to explain why his milk tested positive for campy in one sample.
There are no public reports about what is actually going on at OPDC, so Google isn’t the very best of tools in this instance. It sounds like the CDFA found a bug in product or in environmental tests during the quarantine, probably not campy since OPDC says it passed all of its campy tests. The creamery has to have a certain number of clean tests to be released from the quarantine.
Mary, I just got this from the OPDC Facebook site, an update on the recall from campylobacter found in their milk (though no known illnesses): Wednesday night update:
Customers,
We expect to be released from our hold tomorrow afternoon. As you all should have heard by now, we have had negative results on Campy for 48 hours already, but our dear friends at CDFA have protocols to follow and some of the additional tests that they decided to (in addition to their previous tests) Team,
We expect to be release from our hold tomorrow afternoon. As you all should have heard by now, we have had negative results on Campy for 48 hours already, but our dear friends at CDFA have protocols to follow and some of the additional tests take 72 hours with the 24 hours of freight to get to the lab. In expectation of the negative results, we have already bottled milk 72 hours with the 24 hours of freight to get to the lab. In expectation of the negative results, we have already bottled milk for immediate release and RAPID DELIVERY.
We are planning on being at all Friday farmers markets. We expect to take 48-72 hours to get to all CA stores. We will work as fast as possible once release from the hold to get product onto shelves.
The protocols that n this instance are for good reason, no conspiracy. Campy tends to clump and so distribution of organisms is inconsistent and can be missed.
what’s going on at Organic Pastures, is : a text-book example of how communism works. The dairy is being made to grovel to official-dom, for the sake of a test that evidenced presence of a microbe in IN-significant quanity. Even though no-one got sick. But “it’s all good” … this episode proves Mark McAffee’s operation to be the state-of-the-art.
… meanwhile, the pharmaceutical corpses which rake in untold dollar$ from the vaccine hoax, and use those obscene profits to bribe politicians/ officials who write the laws outlawing alternatives, get away with bloody murder. Latest example being at the URL below : e. coli as an admitted ingredient in a particular vaccine. So it’s OK to inject their patented monkey~pus into children’s bloodstreams, but finding the same stuff in a barnyard, is cause-enough to shut down the milk supply?!
<<<>>
At the bottom of the story I linked to in reply to Mary McG was the headline for another article which might be more concerning. Byline: By Mark Astley+, 14-Apr-2015
“Yersinia pseudotuberculosis bacteria can multiply in raw milk at refrigeration temperature within a couple of days to a “illness-causing level,” the Finnish Food Safety Authority (Evira) claims.”
http://www.dairyreporter.com/Regulation-Safety/Yersinia-pseudotuberculosis-multiply-surprisingly-quick-in-refrigerated-raw-milk-Evira.
How much of a danger is yersinia pseudotuberculosis, and how common is it?
I am in Australia right now. David is right. We had one cow with Campy mastitis. We found her in 36 hours after testing the entire herd with BAX PCR. No illnesses reported. This was not a case of dirty milk or environmental contamination. Campy mastitis comes from inside of the udder. We have changed our ramp plan to include weekly screening for campy mastitis. I guess the PhDs are wrong. Campy mastitis is not so rare. It shut down Claravale and Edwin…. We know this because all coliform tests were clean and a cow with campy was found in both of those cases. We were able to find the hot cow very quickly because we had a ramp plan and learned from ” those rare cases”
Congrats to as Sally and her pet milk. She has excellent quality raw milk. Her tests at rawmi show it. The pets in Maryland are happy now!!
Breaking News: Cheeseslave interviews Kaayla Daniel in todays’s video. All we didn’t know. Great stuff! http://www.cheeseslave.com/
Perhaps you should be posting this under one of the FCLO controversy topics, which this article has nothing to do with.
it’s an expansion on the topic….Mark McAfee style (and it’s a great interview!)
David,
Thanks for writing about this! It is indeed a decisive victory to have the Maryland Department of Agriculture acknowledge and support our access to raw milk from Maryland farmers. What intrigues me about this situation is that it seems to be an instance where the agency that regulates raw milk (Maryland Department of Health and Mental Hygiene) has recognized that people are going to keep accessing raw milk within Maryland, either from Maryland farmers very discretely or from out of state. So they finally gave up on enforcing the prohibition.
Despite the state agency’s hardcore stance against raw milk, there are buying clubs all over Maryland and thriving. This further proves that in order to make a regulatory or legislative change that will have a significant and lasting impact, we need to engage in making it happen even if illegal.
Right now, and for years, there are so many mothers organizing huge groups of consumers to access nutrient rich, clean fresh milk. There is no way to target all of us and, more importantly, we are not afraid. Peacefully accessing the foods of our choice from the producers of our choice is our right that we have seized. Now the state is acquiescing by shifting their policy.
It will be quite interesting to see how the next few months shape up. I am currently working with several MD farmers who are interested in legally supplying milk to Marylanders who want it–for their pets, of course.
Like others who are interested in the availability of locally sourced farm goods, I am excited to see this new wave of acceptance. It is a good start.
With gratitude to all the persistent Marylanders who have helped make this possible!
Liz
Liz, thanks for your hard work on helping make this happen. I know you’ve been pushing in Maryland for upwards of a decade. You organized a caravan of raw milk drinkers to transport raw milk across state lines into Maryland, which wound up with a major demonstration in front of FDA headquarters. You endured the pain of watching farmer Dan Allgyer get repeatedly raided by FDA agents and then get pushed out of farming. You’ve organized legislative hearings with dozens of supporters. You’ve pleaded with Maryland legislators to sanction herdsharing. Now we are seeing the results of your hard work come to fruition….hopefully.
Great, heart-wrenching video interview between Ann Marie Michaels and Dr. Ron. Great history in the making. It’s so wonderful to be part of it.
http://www.cheeseslave.com/fermented-cod-liver-oil-scandal-video-interview-with-dr-ron-schmid/
Wait until you see Cathy Raymond’s video going up tomorrow. She had us both crying.
Mary,
Massive sell outs at CA raw milk stores. Our trucks having to redeliver 24 hours after delivering initial supplies.
We were not shut down for 7 days. In fact that state did not recall all products from stores. Only one date code was recalled and stores were able to sell several other date codes. This shows massive progress with regulators. Mutual Respect, mutual appreciation for OPDC efforts and accuracy of BAX PCR technology has come of age.
I will be spending the next four days listening to PhDs report on the latest greatest research on raw milk down here in Sidney Australia. As much as I hate recalls…. It appears that fears are far less of a concern than empty store shelves and hungry crying healthy babies yearning for their raw milk.
Watch Cheeseslave and Cathy Raymond try to make sense of what happened at WAPF. A heart-breaking story. I thought Cathy had a rash. No. The pictures show a body devastated by exploding blood vessels and inflammation. I can’t imagine the torment of itching like that for so long.
Both women unite to celebrate their painstaking resurrection this past year. The new organization celebrates their courage. Viva Amigos!
View the video at http://www.cheeseslave.com
MY God, How do I love these women, Cathy and Cheeseslave!!! How may I count the ways!!! And Cathy is so lovable and so adorable and so honest and dear, she breaks my heart. No wonder David Gumpert said Cheeseslave is a lightening rod. How wonderful to know Cathy will get to run the show the way she has always wanted to do. And it makes sense to me now why the toads coming from Weston Price are so rigid and full of deadening rules and regulations and are nervous wrecks, They have been hen pecked with in an inch of their lives, abused really. I cannot wait for them to join the new organization and find freedom and be well treated and respected at last. And since I myself have lots of enthusiasm and like to jump up and down with excitement, it was so comforting to watch these two women do the same. Glorious , really sublime!!!!
Thanks girls!!!! How terrific and uplifting and real and honest and honorable you both are, what blessings, what blessings to the world!!!!
AND check out The (unofficial) Interview with Chris Masterjohn on CHEESESLAVE’s Facebook page, where Chris patiently answers a battery of in-depth questions sprung on him by several people (including: David Gumpert, Dr. Ron, Ann Marie Michaels, Cathy Raymond, Steve Tallent, etc.) who interrogate him on matters such as his rebuttal to Dr. Daniel’s report, his financial relationship to WAPF, his motives, his integrity, and much much more!
Read the full interrogation of Chris Masterjohn at:
https://www.facebook.com/cheeseslave/posts/10153151047756304?comment_id=10153151705286304&offset=0&total_comments=4&comment_tracking={%22tn%22%3A%22R0%22}
And flounced off when the heat got too hot!
Yes, please see that discussion where Chris Masterjohn could not withstand any questioning. He starts to philosophize about life. He ducks, he weaves, then answers in shrugs and head scratching.
He is an accomplished waffler.
Why didn’t he say he didn’t know anything about the ravages of rancidity? Just say you don’t know. Don’t make up a wishy-washy chemistry lesson. Don’t insult the victims.
Ah… I reckon that Cathy, Kaayla, and Ron would have all “flounced off” in turn had they been interrogated, as Masterjohn was, rather than being respectfully interviewed as they were. Double standards strike again…
Actually, Sandine was there (and she’s no slouch at convo), and Chris could have asked for a lifeline if he felt he needed it. I’m sure he has a Smart phone (or is it a Mensa phone) to call his Mensa friends, but he likely figured he could hold all of us off with just the brain in his left pinky. Man is that guy smart.
But, David has honed some pretty BadAss interrogation ahem, interview skills taking on DATCP and John Sheehan etc. Perhaps Chris underestimated “The David”.
And Steve Tallent, and Ann Marie Michaels, and wasn’t Kaayla there too? A couple us were having a rollicking side chat egging each other on, playing music clips. David got a Rocky sound clip at the end since he went the distance. Adrian!
Chris was busier than a one armed paper hanger answering all of us and apparently writing another thesis at the same time. Those years of ballroom dancing made him light on his feet. Kaayla,this one’s from the archives, but didn’t you offer to be Chris’ tango partner at one of my fundraisers? Weird, huh?
Why didn’t Chris tag you in Amanda? I would have played a Jaws sound clip in your honor. 🙂 . We were like a rugby scrum all piled up. Chris could also have cried UNCLE and we would have all pilled off, of course.
One of the night’s favs was when Lynne Farrow from Breast Cancer Choices joined in. Her comments made me laugh out loud about Chris’ one-nighter response to Kaayla.
“This is what I would have written if I wanted to filibuster a not to bright professor.”
Guys, we’ve all been friends for years and years and years. We know everyone in the scrum, and no one is biting or pulling hair. This has been really really hard for some of us and that night, there was a little levity. That felt good. I hope there will be an excellent outcome for all concerned.
“This is what I would have written if I wanted to filibuster a not too bright professor.”
^ That was hilarious! Although I thought she was referring to “Hook, Line, and Stinker!” LOL
Seriously, that was an impressively long-winded report. I don’t think I could come up with 100 pages worth of things to say about FCLO if I were typing in ALL CAPS at 20 pt font! 😉
I’m with you Amanda. I would have had to use double spacing too..to S T R E T C H it all out, and still only come up with 2 pages! 🙂
Thank you for shaving 20 years off my life! I’m 59, turning 60 in December. Would be good if I could specify which years to shave off. This last year, has been a doozie, I’d nominate it for sure.
Watching David now!!! Go David Go!
http://www.cheeseslave.com/fermented-cod-liver-oil-scandal-david-gumpert-on-green-pastures-food-safety-wapfs-censure/
BTW, Cathy, you look great!
Actually, I think you look better than me and I’m only 33!
Hey that rhymed! 🙂
For those who don’t have the time or inclination to read through the entire Facebook exchange (which took place over the course of Friday evening and got testy and detoured a few times), here are a few highlights:
Chris Masterjohn: “In case this wasn’t clear from my comment above, I stated in my blog post and meant to reiterate this above that I think many people could negatively react to the biogenic amines in the FCLO.”
Steve Tallent: “I don’t remember you stating that many people could react negatively to amines. I went back and confirmed that NO, you DIDN’T say that MANY people could react negatively to Amines in the product. You said, ‘I suspect that some negative reactions some people experience with FCLO are due to the amine content.. . .’
“There are other somewhat common foods that contain high amounts of amines. However, it is commonly KNOWN that they contain high amounts, and I can’t think of any off hand that are endorsed as a health product and sold to people with existing health problems to FIX those health issues. Can you?”
Masterjohn: “No I don’t take any moral responsibility for people distorting what I’ve written as an unqualified endorsement of a particular product when throughout my career I’ve stressed the importance of individual differences.
“I don’t wish to comment on anyone else’s moral responsibility for a variety of reasons, not the least of which it is a new topic and I only replied to this thread at all because I was seeking clarification about David’s statement implying I had reservations about endorsing the product.
“I’m surprised you put so much emphasis on the word ‘many,’ considering it’s a rather vague word in itself.
“Considering you find the very extensive writings I made on rancidity to have no value at all, I don’t see myself writing any further responses to you, because It seems unlikely that the time I would invest in them would produce any meaningful results.”
Masterjohn’s message seems clear: he never meant to fully endorse FCLO, and in fact acknowledges that many people could well react negatively to it.
David – Correct. Masterjohn’s article was not an endorsement for FCLO. It was more of a rebuttal to the claims made in Kaayla’s report than anything else.
It wasn’t so much a rebuttal of Kaayla’s report, but instead just an attempt to create doubt point by point. He didn’t actually say that much of anything that Kaayla said wasn’t true. He just said there were other possible explanations.
It was a rebuttal in the sense that Kaayla framed her report as though it were the last word on the FCLO controversy, which Masterjohn objected to at length.
Amanda, please look up the word, “rebuttal.” Chris Masterjohn didn’t offer any rebuttal. If you ask him, he would dell you, he just offered noncommittal thoughts off the top of his head. What we learned from his thoughts is that he doesn’t have the time or training to tackle anything so complicated.
He felt he had to say something–allways the wrong feeling to have 🙂
From the Cheeseslave interview with Cathy Raymondd
“The thing was such a sacred cow. The sacred food…There was no long term studies on this stuff…I would say to myself, what would Sally say?…I would follow her blindly.” – Cathy Raymond
What Would Sally Say – WWSS
It is not clear from the Cheeseslave interview why Kathy Raymond lost both her jobs….one at WAP and one for FTCLDF? Anyone know why?
Kathy is one of my most favorite WAP and FTCLDF people.
At least with FTCLDF, Cathy did not lose her job. She turned down the offer(s) she was made and made no counteroffer if I recall correctly.
BTW, we have the board page back up on the FTCLDF website (www.farmtoconsumer.org), it does need updated as we have had a few board member changes, and we have the team page getting finished up this week now that we are done with all our team changes hopefully for a while. They should be viewable to the public by the end of the week or early next.
Thank you Mark. As I recall working with you on FundRAISING for raw milk in California was a little like working for the Three Amigos – shooting the rapids. You get things done sir! You get things done! I had to paddle hard to keep up with you, but we did great until Gov. Arnold killed the bill.
I spent years participating with the FTCLDF team, careful to build a good rep and trust with the Food Freedom Community. I’m not about to blow that body of work because of my own small problem, which of course, led to a very big problem, my homelessness, my vulnerability and my near hopelessness about my FCLO predicament.
It won’t be a surprise for folks reading this blog in particular, to know that folks have been shunned for their actions by SFM, and I have it on very good authority that she wanted me out of the FTCLDF because I courted the Paleo community to help build a bigger base for FTCLDF.
So, second week in December, I got a big surprise…a change from hourly/salary contractor status to a $1,200 per event and 8% commission model, and I was to be stripped of major revenue producing events I’d started over the years – Three-Day Polyface/Farm Food Freedom Fest, WAPF Conference FundRAISERS (dinner and breakfasts) and the Annual WAPF Appeal. These are the bread/butter events for FTCLDF, and for me.
Looked to me like I was locked out of the WAPF related events. No surprise, really, in retrospect.
More upsetting was the commission idea. Commission is great in sales and for-profits, but a bad idea in fundraising and non-profits.
Forgive the analogy, but consider the difference between “relations” between a lady of the night and a cherished wife. Same activity. Different focus. Makes all the difference in the world.
Take the heart out of fundraising, and you’ve got sales transaction. I don’t think that works for this movement, or for this fundraiser.
But, I will stand on my head for folks that come from the heart, including starting a conference, organization and website within two weeks.
I have found the Three Amigos to be exceptionally heart-centered leaders. I think it really matters to them that I have a roof over my head, food to eat, a living wage and productive work to do. They tell the best jokes, we laugh often and it makes the gobs of work go easier.
Kaayla is our mistress of pun and fun. She finds the funniest memes to send us. Ron quotes poetry and songs and makes me LOL sometimes, usually when he’s up at 3 am emailing and David, well he’s one of the best friend/encourager (The Amigo of the Amigos) around. He keeps our spirits up.
Here’s two more examples of heart-centered leadership –
Dr. Ron Schmid heard some folks from the West Coast were troubled by the airfare costs around the holiday, and he’s offered anyone traveling by air a $100 rebate.That is uncommonly generous of him, as he’s already footing the expense for this conference.
Ann Marie Michaels – with two small children at home (Ollie just turned 1 last week) walked through her own personal fire to resurrect CheeseSlave in order to take on the FCLO conversation that wasn’t being covered outside of David’s blog. Each of those videos in the series take her 8 – 10 hours to produce. That takes heart! Jerry McGuire called it KWAN! She’s my Ambassador of Kwan.
http://www.cheeseslave.com/ I think David’s video airs today! YEAH!
BTW – Your skills and talents would ALSO be appreciated at the Paleo-Primal-Price Foundation! I’ll write a comment about you too, just because appreciation feels good, not because I’m getting paid to do it. 🙂
Our website should have the new name populated soon, but for now got to http://www.ffnw.org We’ve extended our early bird thru Tuesday, November 3.
Cathy, having witnessed first-hand your accomplishments with WAPF and FTCLDF, I was thrilled the Paleo-Primal-Price Foundation was able to attract you. And I’d say everything has worked out even better than I expected–you bring a special wonderful spirit, to go along with your extraordinary management and organizational skills. Thank you.
See folks? He’s a great friend to have! Thank you David. Ever since I saw you at Mark Nolt’s farm, after his umpteenth raid, I thought then and now, that the farmers never had a better friend. I know they show you appreciation. Here’s mine! Much love for you and Jean!
I have used raw mild for almost six years now, and am the healthiest I’ve ever been. I gave it to my baby as her first milk after weaning her off of breastmilk. I don’t think you can get any healthier than drinking pure, raw milk, free of unnatural additives, artificial hormones, and antibiotics. There is a reason the FDA did not find pathogens in Dan’s milk. None of us got sick from drinking it. Here’s to progress in this backwards country of the USA.
I just figured out that Sally and Dave W have just waved the white flag. Do not have time to go into detail, much less check any comments here, I did write about it at Kaaylas site I was so angry about the sneakiness of it all, but if you read Amanda’s comment on Cheeseslave how she is no longer taking FCLO, because she does not see the point of the fermentation and told Dave W that and that she only wants to take his old great cod liver oil and we should all vote with our dollars and demand the plain cod liver oil from Green Pastures, As if I would ever trust him again, So this way the poor old fellow can still make a living and save face and avoid lawsuits, pretty sneaky and Sally can save face too, And even Kaayla is on the way to be forgiven, because Amanda said her chapter leader was very much for Kaayla and did not get reprimanded . I guess it is good that FCLO will stop being made and there will be some kind of peace in the health valley but there will never be an admission of any wrong doing and there has been plenty. I told Kaayla I am puking and I am. Cheeseslave was the last straw for Sally and Dave I guess. They heard the fat lady warming up I am
sick to my stomach at Dave W’s and Amanda/Sally’s lack of the slightest feeling or caring or responsibility for damages and deaths caused by Sally’s refusal to truly investigate and Dave W and his snake oil. Watch it all unfold,. I will not be back, I am too nauseous. I hate the underhandedness of it and blatant bull shit of it all, but it is just business right?
Joy – What are you babbling aimlessly about this time? “Do not have time to go into detail” you say? LOL what detail? Clearly you don’t even know what you’re talking about as it is.
NEWSFLASH
I am not involved with Sally or Dave in any way. I hold no leadership position with WAPF, so I don’t know why you keep referring to my name alongside theirs as if we are in cahoots (we aren’t). Whatever I say online literally has no bearing whatsoever on the whereabouts of Sally and Dave. In fact, if you were to ask Sally who I was, she wouldn’t be able to tell you.
Furthermore, I’ve already mentioned (right here on this very blog) the fact that our local chapter was able to discuss this topic freely on our WAPF chapter FB page and that our chapter leader was not scolded for being defensive of Kaayla…. so your little announcement here is redundant.
Not only that, but you took the liberty of incorrectly assuming that this is some new development (Hint: it’s not). The discussion that I’m referring to occurred right after Kaayla’s report came out… within the exact same time frame that all of the other chapters were discussing the controversy. (Do you feel stupid yet, Joy? Because you really should.)
P.S. – This may come as a surprise to you, Joy, but I don’t actually give a shit what you think about what I choose to do with my dollars. Hope that helps.
Apparently, in my haste to correct your wild assumptions, I missed this little gem:
“I just figured out that Sally and Dave W have just waved the white flag. I did write about it at Kaaylas site”
Yeah… you might want to go back there and post an update to let Kaayla know that you were suffering from (temporary?) insanity and to disregard the delusional rant that you “wrote about” on her site… otherwise Kaayla will be awfully confused. Just a thought.
Joy….don’t leave us hanging !! I just posted to you on Kaayla Daniels website blog. Waiting to hear this new update
And on Amanda…..well what can one say…….probably better to just leave it alone.
Karen… you really shouldn’t be encouraging her. Seriously.
If you want to know what I actually said (minus Joy’s wild assumptions) just click on the link below, scroll on down to the comments section, and read what I posted yourself.
http://www.cheeseslave.com/fermented-cod-liver-oil-scandal-archie-welch-on-the-history-of-cod-liver-oil-cases-of-pulmonary-embolism/
There’s nothing shocking in these comments, and most of it I’ve already said here anyway.
I saw a post by an Amanda on the cheeseslave Facebook page that said that she would no longer purchase FCLO. I wondered for a second if it was the same Amanda, but quickly dismissed the thought because, well, there a few hundred posts on this blog that are pro FCLO. I thought the idea of voting with your dollars was good, and suggesting GPP offer another CLO product was fantastic. I have written about this topic to my customers so they know why we aren’t carrying the product but if they want to continue to take it, can do so more informed about the issues, but I have no desire to see GPP flounder or go under. If it is true Amanda that you are not going to purchase FCLO, what led you do that decision? Whatever the case, I wish you and your family the best of health.
Steve – You’re probably thinking of my comments on the CHEESESLAVE blog (not on her Facebook page, which I’ve never commented on). But, anyway…
Yes, I decided to stop buying it because I want GP to go back to the old CLO formulation.
I don’t know if you remember the comment I made here a while back when I mentioned knowing for a fact, from my own personal experience with the product, that the FCLO can go rancid after it’s been opened and used for a while (contrary to what Dave seems to believe). The question then is when will it go bad? and can it possibly go bad even before it’s opened? like during shipping in the summer months? …and if it can go bad like this then what is even the point of the fermentation to begin with? Nobody seemed to have an issue with GP’s regular CLO formulation before, and actually most people seemed to like it better that way.
So, that has been my thought process. I think that GP tried to fix something that wasn’t broken and clearly that was a mistake. The fermentation creates a situation where there are too many “unknowns” and it does not seem to add any value to the product. So why bother?
In the end, the FCLO was never a sacred cow for me. My main objection throughout the controversy was GP and WAPF being attacked and accused of things that I really don’t believe were intentional. But I’m not going to continue taking the product until they go back to what worked. Bottom line.
Yeah, it must have been on the blog, which is why I don’t remember seeing a last name.
I do remember the comment you made about knowing for a fact that it can go bad on the shelf. I agree with you, that even assuming that you get the product in perfect condition, how long does it take it to go bad. And that’s part of the issue that I now have with this whole argument back and forth is that everybody is testing and reporting on just opened bottles of FCLO. But regular folks like us are not opening a new bottle every time we want to take a dose or give one to our kids. I think your thought process in this is right on.
Regarding the old formulation that he had, I can tell you as a retailer that it is cheaper to manufacture your own than to private label – which is what he was having to do before. With FCLO he has a USP – unique selling proposition – and he is not competing and being compared to other CLOs which are similar, and because others might be purchasing from the same manufacturer, exactly the same. Then he has to compete on price and all of that. And I can tell you from experience, with a generic CLO, around $20 is about the max you can go for 8oz. With a unique product, and the dedicated marketing channel at his disposal, especially one as trusted as WAPF, he’s able to charge more than twice as much for 8oz. Plus, doing his own manufacturing is probably cheaper for him. It is for us with the products that we are able to do ourselves. Costs about half as much. May not be that big of a savings for him. But you’ve got to understand that if he went back to a different product, all of those issues are considerations. He could lose 1/3 of his revenue and still move the same number of products.
I kind of agree with you about the lack of added value. I think everybody got swept up in the WAPF fermentation fervor. I know that we thought that fermentation imparted from protection to the oil, like it does to food. I’m not sure that GPP ever actually said explicitly that the oil was fermented, but it was sure implied and GPP didn’t correct anybody that believed it or any of the bloggers that were spreading that information. Originally, I know we were happy that there was not heat used in the process, to preserve the vitamins vs. steaming. Now, I don’t think there is as much heat as with the steam process, but I’m not convinced that there isn’t higher heat in the fermentation area than is good, i.e. – not sure it is climate controlled.
As far as competition goes, I thought that GP’s regular CLO was still a special product in a class of it’s own even without the proprietary fermentation process. Because, at the time, wasn’t GP selling the only raw, unadulterated CLO with all of the natural vitamins still intact?
Dan’s milk? Who is Dan?
fascinating stuff, and it is always awesome news to hear about advances being made with raw milk and legislation!
Hell has frozen over for sure. I just completed attending the 12th “International Milk Genomics Consortium” conference held this year in Sydney Australia. What an event! Great relationships forged with PHd researchers from Australia, Holland, Canada, all over the USA, China and Denmark. The seeds of human consumption safe low risk raw milk have been planted here and internationally for sure. I even found some time to meet with high level dairy regulators in Melbourne as a guest of Dr Ron Hull and the ARM movement and a handfull of ex Cleopatra Bath milk producers here in Australia. A couple of radio talk shows did interviews with me etc. suffice it say that CA raw milk has left an indelible impression on Australia and acedemia and PhD researchers of the world. One more little step for raw milk but one huge step for health through whole food nutrition on earth. Now for that dreaded 15 hour flight back to CA.
Having attended the last three years of these meetings… It is easy to see that huge progress has been made for raw milk. Researchers now speak freely about it and its virtues. They want to know more and they clearly state that processing degrades the nutritional quality of milk and it’s bioactive elements. This year it was clearly described how homogenization is destructive of pathogen reducing safety systems found on the special layers of cells found on the outer surface of butter far cells.
Wow. Progress. Huge!!
At the upcoming Anaheim WAP conference, I will be providing an update about the major raw milk progress news from arround the world. It is fascinating to be able to report that progress is coming from very unlikely places including China and even Maryland…the land of FDA and strict raw milk prohibition. While in Sidney, I was intrigued to hear how many of the IMGC researchers knew about GAPS and gut rehab. Good job WAP and Natasha!!!
I hope to see as many of you in Anaheim as possible. RAWMI will be providing production support and information. OPDC raw dairy products will be offered for free to all that attend! Plenty of raw butter, raw cream, Kefir and raw milk.
You’d love to see as many of us in Anaheim as possible, Mark? How about David Gumpert, Kaayla and I? Cathy Raymond, Ann Marie Michaels? Maybe Randy Hartnell? The Santa Cruz chapter leaders? Maybe you could get us all a special invitation, sort of a dispensation. We could all be on a panel with Sally and the board members and take questions, give forthright answers, and bring things out into the open. Sounds almost democratic, doesn’t it? Wouldn’t that be nice?
Hey, I’ll be glad to moderate that panel, Ron. Would be an interesting discussion, and I’ll bet a well-attended panel.
I don’t think the amigos would be welcome in Anaheim. We don’t need no stinking badges!
I can just see us know, shoulder to shoulder, entering the WAPF conference in our sombreros and serapes! “Three Amigos” meets “The Right Stuff”. Ann Marie, what would our theme song be?
All joking aside, someone ought to attend to tell folks not to buy the stuff, in fact, we ought to demand a recall before the conference. FCLO is (likely) seriously hurting people. I added (likely) because I used to work with attorneys!
Indeed Mark, now would be an opportune time for you to assert your role as arbitrator and make a formal request to the WAPF for admittance and participation on behalf of the dissident mavericks.