Key Lesson in Judge’s Ruling Against Michael Hartmann: Don’t Go to Court with a Bunch of Illnesses on Your Watch

The Hartmann Farm. Michael Hartmann’s legal challenge to Minnesota authorities over confiscation of his dairy farm’s products last May was totally rejected by a state judge.

The case was tried over several weeks last August, but the judge only yesterday decided on behalf of the state–that the 120 cases of milk, 900 packages of raw cheddar, and 125 tubs of yogurt, among other items that were confiscated, must be destroyed.

Though Hartmann customers who attended the trial last August felt the judge was engaged and fair-minded, there’s not a single encouraging word in the entire 23-page decision for Michael Hartmann or the six consumers who were “intervenors” on his behalf. In fact, adding insult to injury, Hartmann and the consumers must pay the cost of the product destruction.

The judge, Rex D. Stacey, accepted completely the findings of the Minnesota Department of Public Health that the Hartmann Farm was almost certainly the source of eight illnesses attributed by authorities to the milk.

The only possible glimmer of light in the whole case is that the ruling applied only to the products seized last May. There was no finding about products produced since then, about the appropriateness of the continued quarantine of the farm’s products, or of whether the farm might have improved conditions in the interim. Thus, the products seized by the state a few weeks ago in the video confrontation weren’t covered in the ruling.

But in light of the illnesses in May, the judge seems very much inclined to listen to the state’s assessment of the situation much more seriously than it is to that of Hartmann.

He reasoned, “Hartmann argues that no test results showed the existence of any poisonous or deleterious substance which may render the food product injurious to health, which is required to prove the food is adulterated. Eight people became ill with the same rare strain of E.coli. The only commonality among these eight people was that they all consumed Hartmann products within days of becoming ill. This same rare strain of E.coli was present in samples taken from the Hartmann farm. This court has no doubt that these people became ill from consuming Hartmann products.”

The judge said he gave “little weight” to the testimony of Tim Wightman, head of the Farm-to-Consumer Foundation and a dairy expert, on Hartmann’s behalf. Judge Stacey recounted Wightman as testifying “that someone possibly ‘could’ produce ‘quality milk’ under” the conditions described by agriculture and public health inspectors of “substantial manure buildup in the milking area of the barn.” Part of the problem the judge had with Wightman was he “did not apply his own standards to the operation; and he did not satisfactorily reconcile farm conditions with his published statements that the ‘milking area should be kept clean’ and that milking and holding areas should be ‘scrupulously free of manure.'” The judge also noted that Wightman “conceded that MDA test results of Hartmann milk revealed standard plate counts which greatly exceed the PMO standards and Mr. Wightman’s recommendations for ‘raw’ milk producers.”

Given all this, there was no way the judge was going to interpret any of the contradictory state laws or the Minnesota Constitution on food and dairy sales in Hartmann’s favor, and he didn’t.

Indeed, he labeled the seized food “adulterated,” and concluded, “There is no question that adulterated food cannot legally be sold or that ensuring the safety of food from farmer to table is anything but a valid exercise of the State’s police power.”

All of which highlights a reality that first became apparent last year, when a Canadian judge ruled in favor of Michael Schmidt. One big reason the judge was swayed by Schmidt’s arguments was that there wasn’t even a hint of illness in more than sixteen years of operations. Had there been illnesses clearly attributable to his dairy, there’s a good chance he would have lost.

This brings me to an issue that’s been raised here any number of times over the last year or so: the need for raw-dairy standards, overseen by a self-governing raw dairy association. Wisconsin dairyman Scott Trautman made the argument most convincingly on this blog a few months back, and was heavily castigated. Mark McAfee of Organic Pastures Dairy Co. has made the argument again in recent days with respect to the Hartmann situation.

The time for rigorous standards is upon us. Essentially, the Hartmann situation places a number of people, certainly me, into an awkward position. I can’t condone a farmer producing product that makes people sick, yet I also can’t condone the state going on a vendetta that makes it next to impossible for him to clean up his act and that targets innocent businesses and consumers for punishment. More significantly, the situation places at risk other farmers who take sanitation more seriously than Hartmann seems to. Court decisions like this set precedents that give regulators carte blanche to run roughshod (even more) over both farmer and consumer rights.

One thing I’ve complained a lot about is judges who won’t give attention to food rights cases. Judge Stacey gave this case his attention, but unfortunately, as I suggested last June when this case emerged, it was the last case I would have wanted him to review. The only benefit I can see to possibly emerge would be if it helped push raw dairy producers and consumers toward developing and adopting a set of realistic standards, so as to hold producers accountable, and thus be able to make a more compelling legal case in favor of food rights in the future. ?

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87 Comments on "Key Lesson in Judge’s Ruling Against Michael Hartmann: Don’t Go to Court with a Bunch of Illnesses on Your Watch"

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Max Kane
December 23, 2010 12:50 pm

A person's privacy still pulls rank over the possible risks of illness and all of the other unfounded rhetoric used to justify standardized food. Standardized raw milk is great as long as it is not forced upon raw milk drinkers…..if it is, then the new raw milk standardization system will become as evil as the current pasteurization system. In addition, the idea of using toxic bleaches and detergents to reduce bacterium levels in food is insane. When a person goes to the E.R. claiming illness the doctors use fear to exploit, non-scientific, one sided view to… Read more »

Ken Conrad
December 23, 2010 10:55 pm

Lykke, Milky Way and cp

Although the method used for establishing epidemiological evidence is complex, such evidence is none the less a statistical guess or a hypothesized relationship based on the ambiguous belief that organisms are primarily responsible for disease. "Correlation does not imply causation" and for a judge to use such evidence as the basis for his ruling is unwise.

It must be painfully obvious to individuals such as yourselves that people continue make choices that defy the status quo despite of any and all attempts to manipulate them through fear and the power of the law.

Ken Conrad

Nourish Yourself
December 23, 2010 11:16 pm

Smy Opin
You are correct – all that was even before my veggie juice!
It is our right to choose the foods WE deem HEALTHY for ourselves!

lola granola
December 23, 2010 11:33 pm


It's a very simple question, really.

What/who gives you the right to tell me what I can or can't do/wear/consume?

Has this designation been bestowed upon you by God? Did God tell you that it's your job to tell me what I can and can't consume, as a reasonable, educated adult?

That's the question. And if in all reality this power has not been bestowed upon you by some Almighty Being then, while you may give me your opinion regarding raw milk and the safety thereof, you may not decide for me that I cannot consume it.

Where does government… Read more »

Nourish Yourself
December 23, 2010 11:45 pm

Lola Granola

You said "Where does government derive their power? From Man, not from God."

However when Jesus was questioned by the authority he was turned over to, Jesus said to him "you would have no authority except as is given by my father".

Ultimately, God allows those people to be in positions they are. He cannot control what they do.

I don't have the exact address right now and don't have the time to look it up as I am leaving for Christmas and need to eat and pack.

December 23, 2010 11:45 pm

Thank you, lola. The most important point you made is being responsible for ourselves. So many people feel it's the government's job to be responsible for them. I suppose in a way, it's easier – one needn't think for oneself when someone else controls the choices and decisions.

December 25, 2010 2:04 am

"USDA scientist Dr. Robert Kremer. Kremer has spent the last fifteen years looking at Monsanto's blockbuster broad-spectrum herbicide glyphosate (aka RoundUp), the most commonly used pesticide in the world and the companion to Monsantos possibly monopolistic RoundupReady lines of genetically engineered seeds.

While exact figures are a closely guarded secret thanks to the USDA's refusal to update its pesticide use database after 2007, estimates suggest upwards of 200 million pounds of glyphosate were dumped on fields and farms in the US in 2008 alone. That's almost double the amount used in 2005.(Now over 300 million… Read more »

Nourish Yourself
December 25, 2010 2:42 am

Lykke and all

Merry Christmas to you! You are loved!

John 3:16 For God so loved you….

lola granola
December 25, 2010 3:11 am


Calling someone a conspiracy theorist is a convenient way to try to discredit them when they get too close to the truth.

Are you denying that you had the following e-mail exchange with Tim Wightman? Please note people that they discuss how the term "raw drinking milk" fits into Codex, the "National Standards for the Production of Raw Drinking Milk" that FTCLDF and others are drafting, and the WI raw milk bill, even though they both live in Ohio.

(Please note that Mark McAfee and David Gumpert were cc'd on these e-mails, and that I have cut out some for… Read more »

Concerned Person
December 25, 2010 4:08 am

Wow lola, do you really think you can overthrow the FDA and DATCP? It is so ridiculous. This is not a sell out, but rather an understanding that if the leaders in the raw milk movement dont set standards, the raw milk movement is going to be severely crippled. Pull you head out of the sand. Raw milk outbreaks and recalls are happening. Work with the system to get what you want. I admire the attempt of this group of people to develop raw milk safety standards. It looks like all the… Read more »

Bill Anderson
December 25, 2010 4:13 am

I am simply calling things as I see them. You are a conspiracy theorist, Lola. You only discredit yourself with your paranoid rants.

I would be more than happy to assist in dismantling FDA/DATCP and the corporate CAFO PMO agribusiness interests they represent. I am curious Lola, what are you doing towards that end?

I have nothing to hide about my email exchanges you post. I do believe that we need to protect the term "raw milk" from alternative forms of dairy processing which may not meet the legal definitions of pasteurization, but which have a similair… Read more »

lola granola
December 25, 2010 4:30 am


"I am simply calling things as I see them. You are a conspiracy theorist, Lola. You only discredit yourself with your paranoid rants."

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! I called you out – busted! – and that's the best you can do?

Why don't you address the fact that you are colluding with Farm to Consumer, Mark McAfee, Gumpert & Wightman to implement Codex through these National Standards instead of calling me stupid names?

You want to make real change? Here it is. Fill in your state's name where you see a blank.

____________ Resolution for Food Sovereignty WHEREAS All people are endowed by… Read more »

December 25, 2010 4:39 am

In the Hartmann case ,the judge said that the Hartmanns failed to offer an alternative explanation for the illnesses.It is too much to expect for a farmer to do an epidemiological investigation,especially since the Department of Health is not likely to co operate in it.I do think there is a plausable explanation for these illnesses that doesn't involve PFGE analysis.Rather than do tests that focus on bacteria,I would test the stool samples to see what toxic chemicals are being excreted. Then the question would be,where did these chemicals come from?Obviously the body is doing some house cleaning,so where did… Read more »

Truly Concerned
December 25, 2010 4:41 am


I think you nailed it. Lykke is a fraud. (S)he is lying about her experience with animals or (s)he does not know what she is doing.

In any event (s)he has shown her true colors by name calling when when (s)he is caught in a lie.

I also believe that she has a superiority complex where she considers her opinions/etc the truth and when challenged goes into a snit. (S)he has done this several times in the past

She has this overwhelming desire to be the "expert" and everyone else must defer to her. She has in fact shown… Read more »

Barney Google
December 25, 2010 4:54 am

Those e-mails are pretty damning, Bill, and proof that there's dealings going on behind closed doors.

Answer this, Bill. Why, if you and Tim Wightman live in Ohio, do you have such an interest in Wisconsin? What do you stand to gain?


The federal government only has jurisdiction in your state by the contracts it makes with the various agencies of your state. No contract, no jurisdiction. It's as simple as that.

All of the state and federal agencies are private corporations, listed on Dunn & Bradstreet. See for yourself:

Bill Anderson
December 25, 2010 5:04 am

I'm all about food soveriegnty, Lola. John Peck at Family Farm Defenders is a good friend of mine. That is their cornerstone issue. I've known John for years. I don't want to speak for him, but I suspect that John would agree with me that simply filling out a resolution is not going to solve the complex web of problems we face. More definitive action is needed.

Lola, and Barney, if you want to be included in future email exchanges about setting raw milk standards, I'd be happy to include you. Just give me… Read more »

Bill Anderson
December 25, 2010 5:08 am

Barney, I am interested in this issue because I am a cheese maker interested in making artisan soft-ripened cheeses. I want to elevate the quality and flavor of cheese available to the typical midwesterner who is used to cheddar cheese curds, flavored colby, and other bland commodity cheeses, etc…

Its all a big socialist conspiracy to overthrow the agribusiness empires with my French influenced aromatic full flavored soft raw milk cheeses. I'm going to turn America communist with the romantic allure of my cheeses. Just watch.

Maurice Kaehler
December 25, 2010 5:33 am

If you torture logic clear to death, you wind up saying quite a lot less than nothing

lola granola
December 25, 2010 5:47 am

You are NOT about food sovereignty, Bill. A sovereign – a FREEMAN – does not live under the rules and regulations of another. If you don't believe this, you are suffering from cognitive dissonance, where two seemingly opposite ideas seem compatible. Well, they aren't.

And I'll tell you, sir, the fact that you're friends with the head of Family Farm Defenders does NOT excuse your collusion to implement Codex through these National Standards.

(I once called John Peck at Family Farm Defenders – probably 3 or so years ago – and said I wanted to… Read more »

Bill Anderson
December 25, 2010 5:48 am


Tell me about being a "little guy."

I make cheese in a 7.5 gallon stock pot on my kitchen stove.

In one medium sized cheddar factory I am familiar with, the smallest "research vat" is 350 gallons, and the largest vat is 2700 gallons. I've seen cheddar factories that have three vats that are 4700 gallons each.

Yes, I am a "little guy" too. And I'm all about freedom. But freedom comes with responsiblities. We will not have raw milk freedom if we are making people sick with it. This isn't about Codex or gloablist conspiracies. … Read more »

December 25, 2010 6:08 am

"We will not have raw milk freedom if we are making people sick with it."

But WE are not making people sick with raw milk… it's only a few who have a problem, not EVERY raw milk supplier. I've never had anyone have even a stomach ache with my raw milk, including my mother undergoing chemo, infants who couldn't tolerate anything else, children, adults… even my dog with lymphoma was actually cured, never mind sickened. (Gasp, FDA will have a FIT… they'll want to classify raw milk as a DRUG!).

I think most officials don't have a clue many people… Read more »

Bill Anderson
December 25, 2010 6:31 am

I agree goat maid. But I don't think it can hurt to promote education and voluntary standards in raw milk production.

Bill Anderson
December 25, 2010 6:47 am

Folks may be interested in this recent article from Kate Arding, founder of Culture Magazine, and a Brit whose background is at Neal's Yard Dairy in London. Neal's Yard Dairy is a cheese shop specializing in artisan and farmhouse cheeses. They were instrumental in saving some of the last remaining farmhouse producers of traditional British cheeses from extinction during the 1980s. Kate was one of the first people to train me as a rookie cheese monger in Madison, Wisconsin.

lola granola
December 25, 2010 6:52 am

"…voluntary standards…"

Bill, I'm still waiting for you to explain how your so-called "voluntary standards" fit into Codex. Do they or don't they? Reading your e-mails above you've obviously taken this into account in crafting the National Standards.

Back room dealings are never a good sign. The fact that this information has to come to light in this way is not a good sign, either.

Bill, you and your comrades are going about this in the wrong way.

You: desperately trying to use food safety as a way to freedom.
Me: desperately trying to use freedom as a way to food… Read more »

December 25, 2010 7:02 am

No, it doesn't hurt to promote education and ~voluntary~ standards in raw milk production, but what DOES hurt the raw milk movement is statements like yours:

"We will not have raw milk freedom if we are making people sick with it."

Because 99% of raw milk producers AREN'T making people sick.

Mark McAfee
December 25, 2010 7:09 am


I have no knowledge of any national standards that are being drafted. I have been asking for them but they have not been drafted ( that I know of ) or sent out for review by anyone that I know.

No conspiracies here…

The only standards I know of are, the basics that Peggy Beal wrote in here paperback book and the Miliking standards for rookies that Tim has published with the FTCLDF work he has done. This is not rocket science here.

Keep…Green Green, Clean Clean, Hot Hot and Cold Cold….test to make sure that mother nature is… Read more »

Bill Anderson
December 25, 2010 7:19 am

Lola, clearly your agenda isn't about raw milk. Its about foaming-at-the-mouth free-market capitalism. There is no way we are going to agree about this issue, because you are a fundamentalist. I am interested in promoting quality dairy production. You are interested in totally unchecked individual greed.

Consolidation, corporatism, and tyranny are caused by the lack of a robust democratic grassroots challenge to the powers that be. I am unaware of any time in human history where people have won their freedom from tyranny through the free market. I am aware of many times in… Read more »

Bill Anderson
December 25, 2010 7:29 am


I appreciate your concern about my comment. What you say is accurate, but I speak from personal experience in saying that there are producers out there who are higher risk than others, and may become a serious liability to the whole movement for raw milk.

If someone doesn't know how to tell that their raw milk and/or cheese is grossly contaminated with coliform, that is a serious problem. If they don't know that they have a high pyscrotrophic (cold-loving bacteria) count because they aren't cleaning their milking equipment properly, that is a serious problem.

As always, education is of… Read more »

Mark McAfee
December 25, 2010 10:13 am

Bill…nicely said. Agree wholeheartedly.

I support individual freedom to develop your own RAMP programs….I support individual freedom on how you achieve the national standard endpoint objectives.

Cows in Arizona will be kept and cared for differently than in Maine. But….we should all have the same objective endpoints.

I suggest these safety indicators for national standards:

Zero pathogens ( campylobacter, ecoli 0157-H7, salmonella and Listeria M. )
Less than 25 coliforms in finished raw milk products
Less than 15,000 Standard Plate Count infinished product
TB and Brucellosis free herds
All milk to be chilled after milking to less than 40 degrees within 30 minutes of… Read more »

Mark McAfee
December 25, 2010 10:17 am

The reason that it is not required to specify how each and every thing is done….is because, if the farmer is not doing each and every thing….he will not achieve the numbers listed at the top. This allows the farmer lots of freedom on how he will achieve the standards.

You want freedom….you got freedom. Freedom to be responsible and proud of your safe and delicious raw milk.

Merry Raw Milk Christmas everyone….


Mark McAfee
December 25, 2010 10:22 am

One more thing….

A written plan that says what you do everyday ( and checklist to verify that they are done everyday ) to achieve these standards. Your very own Risk Analysis Management Program RAMP.

Then you can sleep very well at night and none of your sacred consumers will get sick. Bill Marler will start to pick on CAFO's and there will be peace on earth.


Bill Anderson
December 25, 2010 11:31 am


Chilling the milk to under 40 F is only neccessary if it is for fluid drinking milk.

Milk that is to be acidified (particularily for cheese) is better if it is stored at 50-55F, assuming it is going to have culture added within 24 hours of milk harvest.

Casein is soluabalized at colder temperatures, and lipases are more active, so if the milk is only being held for 24 hours, there is going to be minimal bacterial growth at 50F overnight.

The range between 40 and 50 is definetly a no-no for storage. This is where lipases and psycrotrophs are most… Read more »

Bill Anderson
December 25, 2010 12:13 pm

Another useful test I would add, Mark:

The P.I. count (and to a lesser extent the LPC) are useful labratory indicators of proper (or improper) cleaning of the milk harvesting and storage equipment.

From an organoleptic perspective, a high P.I. count will manifest itself as early spoilage of the milk in the fridge (under a week).

I still question the purpose of having mandatory pathogen testing in a Ready to Eat food. I am not aware of ANY other RTE food which has mandatory pathogen testing in the final product. The whole purpose of HACCP is that you control the… Read more »

Bill Anderson
December 25, 2010 12:50 pm

p.s. the reason that the PMO does not require pathogen testing for pastuerized milk has to everything to do with the same reasons I state above. Liability is the biggest issue — you don't want to find listeria in a product you are ready to ship to market. Its better to look for it in the floor drains, in equipment, and in the enviroment.

Why should we be subjecting raw milk to more strict standards than PMO milk after it has been pasteurized? If we can consistantly produce raw milk that meets the microbioligical standards of pastuerized… Read more »

December 25, 2010 1:24 pm

Thanks, Nancy. I found another source of information better than this group:

Merry Christmas!

Maurice Kaehler
December 25, 2010 1:47 pm

Mark and Bill, I appreciate what you're bringing to the game.

This may be off topic. I also think it is what everyone will face in bringing raw milk standards into play.

Regarding S501, I read this recently in a book…..substitute "law" for "tech" and "technology" and you've got some interesting reading….

"Something about environmentalist mindset learned from working in intel community

1) How can this new thing hurt us?
2) Who is creating it, promoting it, or grabbing it?
3) What is their agenda?
4) How might that agenda shape the technology in harmful way?

Such technoparanoia has a way of being self-fulfilling. It institutionalizes distrust, establishing an interpretive apparatus… Read more »

Barney Google
December 25, 2010 10:43 pm


Apparently you must be the best mouthpiece for that group, as you managed to write all afternoon and add nothing relevant to the topic at hand; you denied, changed the subject, and insulted.

All signs of a good servant (notice how i didn't say lied, that remains to be seen).

So if you know nothing about all of this then it must Mr. Wightman's actions. Maybe it's time to hear from him.

My guess is he is not going to answer and my guess is that none of the other names listed below will, either.

WI Raw Milk Action Network; WAPF Madison… Read more »

Ken Conrad
December 26, 2010 1:01 am


Cooling serves one purpose alone it increases the shelf life of the product for those who prefer their milk sweet and has nothing to do with safety. What it does do however is inhibits or delays raw milks ability to preserve itself and increases the likelihood for undesirable bacteria to take hold.

I enjoy a cold glass of milk however I personally prefer it warm and fresh from the cow. In France fresh warm milk from the cow is served at road side stands with a type of fresh cake whose name escapes me at the moment.

I… Read more »

Bill Anderson
December 26, 2010 1:44 am

Ken, you are correct about cooling. Its primary purpose is to keep the milk "sweet" and preserve the original bacterial population so that the milk can be accurately assesed by a labratory.

In fact, listeria has a competative advantage at cold temperatures. But listeria has not been a major organism of concern in fluid drinking milk. Most listeria in dairy products comes from dairy processing enviroments, and contaminates milk or cheese post-production.

The one organism that would potentially become more dangerous at warm temperatures, if it is present in the milk, is staph aureus. Other pathogens will… Read more »

December 26, 2010 2:10 am

With freedom comes responsibility, yes. But that doesn't mean national raw milk standards. Thats just exchanging one tyrant for another.

Responsibility means the farmers must take it upon themselves to produce quality milk and the consumer must take it upon themselves to ensure their supply is up to their own standards. Responsibility means the farmer bears the economic and emotional burden if outbreaks lead customers to leave.
Responsibility means the customer who takes on risk and willingly drinks raw milk themselves alone suffer the health and emotional consequences if they get sick.

The PMO milk producer has no responsibility so long… Read more »

December 26, 2010 2:22 am


The history of the PMO ought to make it clear that standards don't produce quality milk, healthy people, or healthy farms.

But education, education works and we need more of that.

But it must be done in an environment of freedom. Education coupled with licensor or mandatory tests will not help either; that is what brought us our present medical and legal systems.

December 26, 2010 3:10 am

Thank you, Pete, for expressing my thoughts better than I would have:

"Responsibility means the farmers must take it upon themselves to produce quality milk and the consumer must take it upon themselves to ensure their supply is up to their own standards. Responsibility means the farmer bears the economic and emotional burden if outbreaks lead customers to leave."

I've been milking for 13 years. I do the best I can in what many here would consider primitive conditions. I require all my customers to visit the farm, to watch me milk, so they know exactly what they're getting; far from… Read more »

Ken Conrad
December 26, 2010 3:14 am


I spent over 30 years milking jerseys using a pipeline system and yes; stainless steel pipelines do require heavy duty cleaners along with huge amounts of hot water not to mention a large amount of energy to produce that hot water. In the last several years using a pipeline system I used a chlorinated detergent for the main cleaning cycle followed by vinegar to control mineral buildup and H2O2 as a sanitizer followed again by a potable water rinse.

In my opinion small is better; get rid of the pipelines and use bucket milkers which can be scrubbed by… Read more »

December 26, 2010 3:43 am

Well, shoot, handmilking over an open bucket would be even more horrifying to TPTB, but my customers don't mind. The few that did mind, didn't come back after watching me milk the first time, and that's fine with me because those are the ones who are afraid of "germs."

Handmilking over an open bucket is what the Amish still do and have done for centuries. They make their kids help with the milking, starting at age five.

The one year I used a milking machine the animals got mastitis and like Ken said, took a LOT of hot water… Read more »

Bill Anderson
December 26, 2010 6:26 am

If you are bucket milking, that would be correct.

I suppose the standards I was talking about would only be applicable to Grade A dairies. I have no objection to the types of things goat maid and Ken are talking about, but they are not practical for a farmer milking 30 or more cows.

Bucket milking is definitely a superior system when you are milking goats and sheep, because of how fragile their butterfat molecules are. There are also some new pipeline systems that can handle the milk very delicately. If you have a low pipeline (rather than… Read more »

hugh betcha
December 26, 2010 6:37 am

bill, you are a know it all and probably dangerous to the raw milk movement. you need to shut-up, grow-up (as in gain maturity) and learn lifes lessons by living them, since it seems you know little.

you spout "facts" and crapaolla patolla adnausium you are no different then lyke and her ilk.

please consider what i just said and please do not reply.

lola granola
December 26, 2010 10:29 am

Is it conceivable that the organizations supporting the Tester Hagan amendment and their subsequent support of the Food Safety Modernization Act acted on their own behalf to deliver a means to an end?

We find within the Act the answer:

(n ) Regulations
(1) IN GENERAL.—Not later than 18 months after the date of enactment of the FDA Food Safety Modernization Act, the Secretary shall promulgate regulations—
(A) to establish science based minimum standards for conducting a hazard analysis, documenting hazards, implementing preventive controls, and documenting… Read more »

milk farmer
December 26, 2010 10:56 am

Hmmmm. Quite an interesting discussion. Guess it's good to get this out in the open.

Frankly I think that lola, Barney and hugh are more on the mark here….and the others that are touting national standards are way off base.

National Standards will do little to make raw milk acceptable to tptb. What they will do is arm those whose main goal is to ultra commercialize raw milk, with a powerful tool to do so…. marginalize the small producer, and give the consumer a shortcut, a free pass, on getting to know their farmer. That they are being created in… Read more »

Gordon Watson
December 26, 2010 12:06 pm

Yeah, the industrial ag. steamroller is on its way to doing to REAL MILK what it did to the term "organic" … utterly pervert the word. But the small holder will continue and even thrive, as long as he + she adapt to the new technologies. Those who want to live in their own fantasy two centuries old – pittance farmers – are welcome to.
What I started out to do was to make raw milk available to everyone in British Columbia who wants it. That requires fitting-in with the Baal-worshippers and their licences.… Read more »

Smy Opin
December 26, 2010 9:53 pm

Gordon wrote: " the small holder will continue and even thrive, as long as he + she adapt to the new technologies. Those who want to live in their own fantasy two centuries old – pittance farmers…"
I think if anyone is living in a fantasy, it is those who are dwell in the never-never land where real food crosses the line to become an industrialized product.
Therein lies dangerous ground and a lot of self deception.
When it comes to food, to animals, to the land – size really does matter.
This article describes the issue very… Read more »