It’s often said that a picture is worth a thousand words. Seeing is believing.
So much has been written about the controversy (or scandal, as some people refer to it) over fermented cod liver oil, that seeing and hearing key participants lends a whole new dimension to the story that won’t go away. It helps explain, in a way written commentary such as what I’ve provided on this blog, why so many people are so troubled about this entire episode.
Ann Marie Michaels, otherwise known as Cheeseslave, did interviews with several of those close to various aspects of this story. Perhaps because a couple months have passed since the story first broke about health concerns over the Green Pasture FCLO, but a number of new nuggets (at least to me) came out in Ann Marie Michaels’ interviews. I strongly encourage readers to review the videos themselves, but in the meantime, here are some items about FCLO-new revelations:
From Kaayla Daniel
From Kaayla Daniel, the former Weston A. Price Foundation vice president, and author of the report that broke open the FCLO concerns, came a revelation that perhaps begins to explain the closeness of the relationship between Green Pasture owner Dave Wetzel and Weston A. Price Foundation founder and president Sally Fallon Morell.
One big question that has pervaded the rancor over the Green Pasture fermented cod liver oil is this: What other favors were possibly exchanging hands in order for Green Pasture to receive what always seemed to WAPF sponsors to be its preferential treatment compared with other sponsors? Fallon Morell said early on that aside from hefty sponsor fees and a small amount of independent product sales, she didn’t make money personally off the arrangement that created so much discord.
There may have been at least one exception. Daniel, in her interview with Michaels, says that Dave Wetzel personally drove two dairy cows from his farm in Nebraska to her dairy in Brandywine, MD. (Daniel refers to it, at the 43-minute mark of the interview, as “a generous gift, not necessarily corruption.”) According to an online request for shipping services from Nebraska, this happened in late 2010 and early 2011. The raw milk part of my mind wonders: Are those two cows from the GP FCLO headquarters now providing milk to Maryland residents?
I emailed both Fallon Morell and Wetzel asking if they could explain this situation further, but neither responded.
For Daniel, the FCLO outcry, and her excommunication from the WAPF, has been a financial disaster. “About one-third of my income came from WAPF. I am really hurting from the loss of that income….This is a big hit for me financially.” She again denied that she makes money from sale of any brand of cod liver oil.
From Cathy Raymond
From Cathy Raymond comes a startling, and sad, tale of trust badly rewarded. Raymond was a conference organizer for the Weston A. Price Foundation for nine conferences and later also for the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund, for five years. Raymond recounts in her Cheeseslave interview how she was forced out by both WAPF and FTCLDF—she thinks because she had offended Fallon Morell for trying to involve Paleo representatives in WAPF functions— and wound up homeless, spending some of the little money she had on Green Pasture fermented cod liver oil. (In comments following my previous post, Raymond and John Moody of the FTCLDF present differing accounts of her departure from FTCLDF; Moody says she received an offer and never made a counter-offer; Raymond says the offer was a non-starter.)
As 2014 and 2015 went on, a small rash spread through her entire body, sparing only her hands, feet, and face. “I thought my body is going through a stressful time, and I need more of that (FCLO). “ She finally discovered, during a consult with a dermatologist, after months of agony from the rash, that it was likely the FCLO had caused the rash. Likely because, when she discontinued the FCLO, her rash gradually disappeared.
Now, she’s helping organize the new Paleo-Primal-Price Foundation and its first annual conference Nov. 21-22.
From John Moody and Chris Masterjohn
In recent days, two of the more notable defenders of Green Pasture (aside from Sally Fallon Morell and Dave Wetzel) have suggested they have more serious concerns about the safety of fermented cod liver oil than previously revealed.
From John Moody, executive director of the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund, who has been a staunch defender of Green Pasture, WAPF, and Sally Fallon Morell, came this revelation today during a heated exchange with me on Facebook. He stated to me at one point:
“Because if you had even asked basics, you would see that based solely on KDs (Kaayla Daniel’s) personal talk with me months ago and my friendship with RS (Ron Schmid), our buying club stopped ordering from GP (Green Pasture) long before 95% of people were informed.”
How’s that? He removed Green Pasture FCLO from his Kentucky food club’s offerings because he was worried about its safety? “I stopped ordering AFTER I spoke with Kaayla,” Moody responded. “Because I was open to thoughtful concerns, not the witch hunt that this has become.”
I responded that if Moody had revealed his safety concerns previously and I had somehow missed them, then I owed him an apology. He didn’t answer me, and I’ve not been able to find anything mentioning his decisive precautionary move on behalf of his food club members, way ahead of all other distributors, in any of his comments lambasting me and others who raised safety concerns about FCLO.
Moody’s revelation comes on the heels of a declaration by Chris Masterjohn, a nutritionist and also a defender of GP, a week ago, also on Facebook. “I think many people could negatively react to the biogenic amines in the FCLO. I don’t think this would cause HUS, but do believe it could cause heart palpitations, rashes, and gastrointestinal upset. I think a brief perusal of the topic of amine intolerance would show that this is a food intolerance issue, and not a a reasonable means of declaring foods that contain biogenic amines to be intrinsically toxic.”
Other interviews related to FCLO conducted by Michaels include one of Ron Schmid, the naturopathic doctor; one of Archie Welch, a co-founder of supplement seller Corganic; one of Steve Tallent, president of Beeyoutiful.com, a supplement and beauty product supplier; and one of me. Each makes for fascinating listening. All these individuals, including Ann Marie Michaels, will be at the first annual conference of the Paleo-Primal-Price Foundation Nov. 21-22, where early-bird pricing has been extended.
I’m not sure what the cows really have to do with this whole debate. Either I’m missing something, or you are nit picking…
Deceptive payola?
Steve Tallent’s transparency claims are a joke to me. After ordering and receiving ratfish oil from Beeyoutiful I wrote to the company twice regarding concerns I had regarding possible toxins in the product. Beeyoutiful did not respond. I responded to their customer questionnaire with my concerns. No response from them. This entire “scandal” reeks of a similar “fishyness”. As with many debates there are rights and wrongs on both sides. When a reporter finds “nuggets” and not concerns…..there is biased reporting. No more fish oil for my family except our weekly meals of cold water oily fish.
Hi Kay,
Depending on how you wrote to us, we may not have received it. We found out about two weeks ago that our help desk module was not checking our email inbox the way it is supposed to. Things were still coming in from our form on our website so the girls that were checking it didn’t know it was broken. It’s not fixed, but I thought I had it patched. One of the girls today told me that incoming tickets have slackened, and that worried me a bit, but I haven’t had a chance to go confirm that it is working. I’m hoping that we can have it totally fixed within the next two weeks. Unfortunately with these technology things, you can only go for so long without updating and when up update, something invariably breaks. It is a constant frustration. I will look for your message but you can also contact me directly – steve at beeyoutiful.com, or call. I answer the phones a few mornings a weeks. I think I know what your concern is and I think I have the answer to it. When I heard about the Norway “Ratfish Oil Recall”, I immediately messaged the supplier and I got the real story.
Thank you for this detailed response. I appreciate your time and will continue to use Beeyoutifull as a resource.
A gift of cows suggest some sinister motive? Really David?! Give me a break! She also received cows from her favorite Amish farm in Lancaster Cty. PA and from a farm in, iirc, Maine. So maybe somehow she was also profiting from them?
Cathy Raymond was ousted from the two groups for good reason, not the least of which involved, well, I won’t go into it here. But from what I know and what I experienced personally, it was time. Enjoy her, but I hope you have deep pockets and a high tolerance for drama. I guess that would be the case on at least the second part.
Maureen,
There is nothing wrong with giving or accepting a gift! And indeed, only the ones involved in the gift exchange can know for certain what motivated it.
That being said however, in these types of situations where someone has taken questionable and unethical steps to protect the credibility of a product, themselves and others, then they really aught to tread lightly!
I would agree. In isolation, nothing wrong with giving and accepting gifts. I only brought it up in the context of this controversy, and Sally Fallon Morell’s denial of having profited financially from the relationship with Green Pasture beyond the WAPF sponsorships and some personal product sales.
I think the only thing that the cow gift illustrates is that they are friends. People often have emotional based loyalties to friends that supersede facts.
I’d like to point out that while stopping FCLO was critical, it was by far not the only factor in my recovery from advanced heart failure. My cardiologist had no expectation that I would recover, because the condition is considered to be irreversible, with a prognosis of three to six months to live. Yet he wrote in my medical records a few months ago that I have made a “miraculous recovery.” I am now functioning normally, for me, which means an hour or two of singles tennis at a high level several times a week – at seventy years old. The basis for this recovery is the strength of the dietary principles I have studied and applied for some fifty years. These principles incorporate what Weston Price taught us, but go far beyond the usual WAPF teachings. I have seen in thousands of people that the application of these principles can enable most people to recover from most medical problems. This is what I will be talking about at our upcoming conference.
Ron, I am sincerely glad that you are recovered and so sorry that this happened to you. I have always had great respect and appreciation for you. Please know that for me, I see the high dosage as the real problem and, after reading through all the various analysis remain far from convinced that FCLO is the true culprit here. I am, however, not infallible. And like many other things which we might recommend, FCLO is for some a miracle, for others a poison. What concerns me here is the tone of divisiveness, blame, anger, hate, and the clear attempt to take down a wonderful organization and its founder. Several have an axe to grind and glory to seek because of perceived wrong and are acting in a particularly ugly manner. Had Kaayla behaved in a far different manner from the beginning, things would be different. I am profoundly sorry to see you leave WAPF and wish you, personally, the best.
Please Maureen, go, do not stop and demand that David W. put on his bottles of FCLO, that this product is good for some but poison for others and it the only way to tell which it is for you, is to take it every day for years and if one develops any of health problems than erring on the side of caution, no longer take it. As for acrimony, yes, I imagine when Kaayla, your scape goat of choice, was told that anything negative about FCLO, that she found would be buried by Weston Price. She got really mad and wanted to save lives, so excuse us for defending our beliefs here and getting really frustrated at the other side’s heartless denials and lobbying for this poison. I know you must really believe what you are saying, but just stop and use common sense. I am tired of people trying to sooth themselves about Ron’s near death by mouthing ” Dosage levels” It is insulting! Sally herself took as much and urged others to do so as well. And I know you find comfort in thinking there are vendettas and such going on and glory to be found, It just doesn’t wash, with the interviews I have watched and read, sure there may be some people who come to the new organization thinking that way, but for better or worse this will be a democratic organization, not a dictatorship, so we will see what happens.
I am sad that you buy into Sally propaganda, paranoia. If she gets brought down and pulls Weston Price with her, she will have done it by her own little hand.
I am a long supporter of WAPF…have listened to every video by cheeslave about the issue…did not have the same impression of the tone you did… I heard facts, personal stories and apreciacion towards Sally…. Maybe it’s because I am a foreigner or maybe because of my attitude or maybe because I can relate to this very difficult situation that these people are inn…
Hi Maureen, just curious what you think about the high dosage would cause heart failure? Hmm. Maybe that’s not very clear. Uh, what component of FCLO, in excess, would cause heart failure? That’s better. It’s not a symptom of hypervitaminosis A or D. I can’t find anything that relates any kind of heart issues with too many omegas. Any thoughts?
Hi Steve, I found this on the Price Pottenger Nutrition Foundation website, according to Dr Weston A Price’s research:
Overdosing with cod liver oil (and other fish oils), he cautioned, can be detrimental, possibly resulting in depression or paralysis, and he warned that “serious structural damage can be done to hearts and kidneys.”[9(p267)] In a paper published in the August 1932 Journal of the American Dental Association, he showed pictures depicting “progressive paralysis produced in a chicken and a rabbit, apparently by an overdose of cod liver oil.”[25(p1348)]
Thank you for looking that up. I’ve already seen that. But it still doesn’t answer the question of WHAT part of the oil is causing the health conditions.
In Dr. Price’s day, CLO was not refrigerated, and no anti-oxidants were added. I have not yet heard one person opine that the oil in his day was not rancid and many have said that they believe it almost assuredly was universally rancid. There were also no methods to remove toxins that are regularly found in Cod, or test for specific toxins that there are today. I can’t find the quote, but I thought I remembered Dr. Price speculated that it was toxins in the oil that caused those conditions. If that was in those oils, then what is in FCLO.
But the most important question is, regardless of what is in FCLO, how do we keep people from having adverse effects?
J. Am Dental Assoc, V.19, pp1339-1369 (1932). Give me yr email & I can send it to you.
When Dr. Ron was diagnosed with fatal heart failure a few years ago, he read articles about CLO from the 1930s that said high doses caused heart failure.
HOWEVER those articles were written in a time when cod liver oil WAS RANCID. That’s the dirty little secret about cod liver oil. It was ALWAYS rancid to some degree. Some forms were more rancid than others.
That is why Dr. Price said to be very careful with cod liver oil and not take too much — because at the time, all the CLO was RANCID.
Nowadays, most cod liver oil on the market is not rancid. This explains why Dr. Ron was able to take Carlson’s cod liver oil for TWENTY FIVE years and had no problems with his heart.
After only 2 years on the FCLO, he developed advanced heart failure. This makes sense if the FCLO is rancid. Because we know that rancid oils cause heart disease.
Thank you for your kind comments, Maureen. I remember fondly our many conversations over the years and seeing you at conferences. As to your thoughts about the high dosage being the real problem, you are in part correct. The fact that I took two tablespoons daily, and even three on occasion, for years, coupled with my intransigence in not seeking help to understand what was wrong and correct the problems, was why I wound up with advanced heart failure. I inadvertently served as something of a canary in a coal mine. You must realize that a lot of poison is much worse than a little. I took about the same dose I had taken of regular CLO for 27 years before going on FCLO in 2006-7. No problems. And my dosage was similar to that recommended officially for years by the WAPF, and unofficially for many more years. Keep in mind that the half teaspoon now recommended for toddlers translates proportionally to one to two tablespoons a day for an adult. Do you really want our children doing this? We are not attempting to take down what has been a wonderful organization, or its founder. But Maureen, it is clear that there are serious problems with FCLO, to say the least. People of conscience must speak the truth, and those who refuse to listen, to respond honestly, take themselves down. I am sorry to have left the WAPF. It was not voluntary.
Hi Ron,
That may be the case that there are serious problems with FCLO and I do appreciate your candid remarks that it was not the only factor. It would be nice and in full transparency to truly understand the whole story with your health. I understand that FCLO may be rancid and contribute to it, but I think it’s important to tell the whole story so we have the proper perspective of it in conjunction with GP cod liver oil.
How much more transparency do you need it Eric? And do you have a degree in anything that would give you insight to read his blood work, his various tests and diagnostic results. Do you need to go live at his home with him and his wife and observe his every move and motive and question constantly his own vast knowledge, experience and training to believe what he says.
He is very clear. It seems as if you are fishing for the slightest excuse to prove him wrong. And there are more cases coming in. Do you expect that all those cases be held up under every possible test known to man as well. You will be very busy. The scary thing, is that we will most probably see some loyal Weston Price members getting heart failure in the near future as well as other ailments that rancidity creates and of course no one is in perfect health at all times and they
will have different life styles or heredity or some such thing that can be used for an excuse if you look hard enough. But we do know what rancidity can cause and it seems the wisest thing to do would be to stop with this rancid FCLO like right this minute, speaking of transparency, how much FCLO do you take and if so, aren’t you the slightest bit worried. I sure would be. Good God!
Dave, I think you are going to hear of more and more people who have been so voraciously supportive of FCLO hemming, hawing, shuffling their feet, saying they have given up taking it a while ago, And thank God, what fool would still be taking, except those people who do not even know about Kaayla’s report and Cheeseslave’s interviews, and Ron Scmidt’s and Steve Tallent’s websites and your blog. Thank you Sally for keeping as many people in the dark or loyal to your hubristic pride as you can. Sally you have the blood of innocent babies and children and adults on your hands, As do the others who crawl behind you hoping for a boon. Green pastures will soon have to stop selling it, and we will hear from them and Weston Price that Green Pastures regular CLO is the best in the world and only matched by his incredible butter oil, have we not already heard this sales pitch from a few from Sally’s supporters? Saving face, saving face. I know I sounded a bit Shakespearian back there but knowingly killing people or destroying their health is a tragedy.
I wish Mark Twain were alive today, he would make mincemeat of Sally and Dave W. I sometimes think of the two of them as the King and Duke in Huckleberry Finn. Rapscallions, I can almost see Sally and Dave W on the raft with Huck and Jim, plotting and scheming and rehearsing Romeo and Juliet! But just as Huck, even after they made his and Jim’s life hell, when Huck sees the two crooks tarred and feathered. lashed to poles, run out of town, he feels bad for them, and so do I feel bad for Sally and Dave W. and I believe so do a lot of people. PS I hope when this is posted there is not Craig’s picture beside my name as it is now, that would be kinda funny as if all this time he was me. Well I am not Craig, nor want to be!
`
I have heard that Mary Enig privately referred to Geoffrey, Sally’s 3rd husband, as “Rasputin.”
Aurjan, wow! Rasputin, eh? Any chance you can reveal any more information to confirm that you are not just making this up?
Joy, you are a very scary woman. Please stop sliming everyone with your nasty energy!
@Jenny I enjoyed Joy’s response. Liked the references to Twain and Shakespeare.
Can we not attack each other personally and just look at evidence?
Thank you Ann. My sentiments too
Why don’t you ask Joy to do the same Ann Marie? All her posts are are attacks. Let’s all be nice and treat each other with the same respect. Her references to Twain and Shakespeare is not what I was referring to but I think you’re smart enough to figure that out.
Nobody should be making personal attacks. It’s not going to get us anywhere.
We need to examine the evidence.
Thanks again Ann. For being a voice of reason.
Ann Marie – Funny I didn’t hear a peep out of you when Joy was very obviously ATTACKING ME PERSONALLY on your blog. Not that I care either way, but at least be consistent.
Joy, give it a rest already.
I never said anything about Green Pastures regular CLO being “the best in the world and only matched by his incredible butter oil.” You have a serious flare for dramatics, don’t you?
Hey Ron. You mentioned that you’ve been taking mega dose of cod liver oil for a long while. Long before you took Green Pastures product. Secondly, the reason for your miraculous recovery is you stop those megadose. Your gall bladder or something may have been off. Did you take another cod liver oil and are you taking the amount you have in the last 20 or whatever years? And why Dave’s cod liver oil being singled out as you mentioned that it was not the only factor….
He took Carlson’s cod liver oil for 25 years and he was fine. Carlson’s cod liver oil is not rancid.
How do you know he was fine? How do you know it wasn’t long term damage?
Yes, that is possible of course.
But doesn’t it seem odd to you that he took Carlson’s for 25 years with no heart problems, then after 2 years of taking FCLO, he had heart failure?
Also when we have reason to believe that the FCLO is rancid based on Kaayla’s report and Dr. Rudi Moerck’s interview… it’s very hard (almost impossible) to protect FCLO from rancidity.
AND we have multiple reports of health problems, some very serious and even life-threatening, that are caused by rancid oil.
Daily, long distance running over a long period of time can also damage the heart. There are a plethora of scientific studies that prove this. Do you think it is completely fair to not take Dr. Ron’s other excessive behaviors into consideration? I’m in no way trying to downplay what he has been through and mean no disrespect.
@Jenny…You are engaging in character assassination by using innuendo to blame the emerging number of victims of the FCLO fiasco. Whenever anybody says, they “mean no disrespect,” that’s exactly what they mean. Shame on you.
Please put your affairs in order. Also, your children’s affairs. We never know what life will bring us when we play FCLO Roulette.
No that’s absolutely not what I am doing! Put your own affairs in order very mean person!
I was simply asking a fair and honest question and the reason I mentioned no disrespect is because I’ve been reading the posts by people like you and knew someone like you would take it the wrong way, turn it around, and try to make it into something it’s not! SHAME ON YOU !
“Please put your affairs in order. Also, your children’s affairs. We never know what life will bring us when we play FCLO Roulette.”
Yeah, that is mean. But truthfully is that we should all have our affairs in order as much as possible, because we never know what life will bring us.
Jenny’s husband here, to And now the purge begins, I have no dog in this fight as I do not take any cod liver oil products, but I will be reporting your threat against my wife and my children and myself to the Federal Bureau of investigation.
@jenny’s husband, your wife can’t speak for herself? Is this 1955?
She assassinates Dr. Ron’s character and then hides behind your apron? She can’t be advised that the FCLO roulette she’s playing may necessitate future planning?
Please call the FBI and tell them an anonymous person on the internet gave you advice to plan ahead. 😀
Really Jenny’s husband? What is this gradeschool?
Hard to believe the FBI is going to spend their time on a blog comment said by one unknown person to another unknown person and reported by the unknown’s husband. And the comment was a warning over how sick you can get taking in extremely rancid oils daily.
Jenny and Tarzan hubby, anyone knowingly giving their child rancid oil can be reported to Child Protective Services.
Since Green Pastures has not voluntarily recalled a product with known complaints, it’s just a matter of time before the FDA will recall it. Then Child Protective Services will spring into action.
I don’t know about CPS but, yes, the government would love any reason to get more involved in supplements. Great. Just what we needed. Have to thank Dave W.
I can’t believe that anyone here would even joke about calling CPS on a family. Just because you disagree with someone’s parental choices gives you the right to call in the state-sanctioned kidnappers to yank the children from out their homes and make them a ward of the state? Really??
Again, straight out of the provaxxer playbook.
You might want to reread that comment. The OP did not say they would call CPS.
“Since Green Pastures has not voluntarily recalled a product with known complaints, it’s just a matter of time before the FDA will recall it. Then Child Protective Services will spring into action.”
This comment says since the product wasn’t recalled voluntarily, the FDA will be involved (recalling it). WHEN (Then) that happens, CPS will get involved. Will they get involved on their own? Yes, they have been known to when notified by other agencies. It is cause and effect.
“This comment says since the product wasn’t recalled voluntarily, the FDA will be involved. WHEN that happens, CPS will get involved. Will they get involved on their own? Yes, they have been known to when notified by other agencies. It is cause and effect.”
This has got to be one of the most idiotic comments I’ve read here thus far.
How, pray tell, would CPS know which family to harass if somebody doesn’t call in on their Tip Line to tell them? Furthermore, how would the FDA magically get this information in order to then pass it on to CPS …??
Can we smooth out the “FCLO roulette” comment? Jenny’s-husband, have you read Jenny’s comments? Folks are going to be blunt, as she has been. I think that’s beneficial, however, because people authentically comment and, therefore, thoroughly flesh out the issue.
Do you know about the FCLO madness? I have not read how “fermented” is superior to fresh CLO. Please correct me anybody if I am wrong. I think that And-now-the-purge-begin’s comment came off as odd, though, they hit the nail on the head. Why would someone take GP product when they have better odds with a number of other brands, Rosita, Carlson, Dr. Moerck’s krill, fresh whole fish, whatever.
(The FBI/NSA does have access to our location information; nothing is anonymous.)
SFM’s answer to everything is to add more fat. I have always wondered on what she based her advice. Now I know…
Wow!! I just love all the above comments to “JENNY’S HUSBAND” sounds like a country western song and Oh L, spot on, about child protection agencies getting into action when FCLO. is recalled. ” And The Purge Begins” I love how you cut through the all bullshit!
Really not sure why you’re upset at Jenny’s post. I’m a personal trainer and I can tell you excessive running (ie marathon) isn’t good. Mercola does talk about it and how it ruin his health and suggest HIIT or peak fitness as he likes to call it.
I am looking at all the evidence.
Working on a post now with testimonies from multiple people who experienced heath issues. It will be interesting to look at an array.
Thank you Ann Marie.
Jenny, I think you are looking for the truth, and I appreciate your sentiments. Many of us have found this whole business hard to believe; I know I did for a long time. Please read my story (“Too Much of a Not So Good Thing”) more carefully and I think you will find answers to your questions above. And really, long distance running, or tennis, which I also do a lot, is perfectly safe with a careful diet and attention to when the body needs rest. My only other excessive behavior is that I NEVER, except when I really want to, eat anything with sugar. My next adventure with that will be the chocolate dessert at the banquet of our upcoming conference, to which I hope you will come.
Jenny after you finish Dr. Ron’s story check out the awful disasters people are reporting on cheeseslave’s newest blog that went up today. Dr. Ron’s not the only one reporting heart problems. Here you go for the link…..and get a cup of tea …it’s long one .http://www.cheeseslave.com/fermented-cod-liver-oil-scandal-many-fclo-customers-report-health-problems/
Very Possible. Ron admitted it wasn’t the only factor. I think he needs to come out with a full report instead of singling out fclo. It seems underhanded to just hear about fclo and nothing else when he admitted other factors.
Eric, I think you will find my “Too Much…” story to be the full report you are asking for. In fact, one person wrote that it was, “All you ever wanted to know about Dr. Ron, and more.”
Interesting two thumbs down for this post? What’s with this crowd?
I would like to volunteer my humble opininion that thumbs u – thumbs down should be abolished on this forum, it’s just another form of public opininion influence control
Jenny’s husband, Mark, not Tarzan, here again –
1. Jenny is doing just fine speaking for herself. “And the purge begins” included me in this by threatening to kill my children. Whether it’s 1955 or 2015, I’m certain that everyone reading this would feel compelled to protect their children from a threat like this, even if it’s just cyber bullying. I can’t believe I was actually criticized for doing so.
2. Jenny never said that she gives our children FCLO, so good luck with the whole Child Services thing.
3. While it is not against the law to be rude on the Internet (otherwise many of you would be in serious trouble), it is actually against the law to make a death threat on the Internet. And so all are aware, including Mr. Gumpert, this incident has been reported to the Internet Crimes Division of the FBI and they have already contacted us in response. And “Oxidized” was correct, there is no such thing as being anonymous on the Internet.
So commence to your uncivil discourse, but please leave my family out of it.
The remark about getting affairs in order and dying was completely uncalled for, I agree. However, it was not that poster threatening to do harm to your family. It was that poster expressing their believe that by continuing to take FCLO, your family would be doing harm to itself. I’m sure that the FBI, like many of the rest of us, will be able to see that by reading the comment in context. If your family is NOT taking FCLO, then there is no threat of harm at all inherent in the comment – which doesn’t make the comment any less mean, offensive, and completely uncalled for as a couple of us have already said.
I think you are on a witch hunt, and being very nasty in the process. Now with a total speculation of a “gift” of dairy cows? Do you know how impossible it is to find good dairy cows? No, you do not, because you do not raise any. How do you know she did not buy the dairy cows from David? Seeing your link for online shipping services that was posted to try and find a livestock hauler only shows, that they were trying to find a hauler, to take fragile dairy cows on a two day truck ride, which is hell on them. If David personally took them to her, and you don’t even know if she paid him for the transport as well, then it was a gift of love for his cows, that they did not have to make the long trip with a cattle hauler. If he did give them to her, and transport them for free, which you definitely are accusing them of out of pure speculation, then where is friendship? Don’t friends have the right to help each other, and give them things? I would be proud for Sally to have any of my dairy cows, as I know what excellent care and healthy life they would lead.
Jamie, it was Kaayla Daniel who understood that the cows were a gift (see the link to the video in my post). I asked both Sally Fallon Morell and Dave Wetzel for clarification and amplification, and neither responded. I would argue that, given all the controversy and speculation, they should have responded, to answer the kinds of questions you are posing.
I heard Dave took Sally out to a gourmet grass fed beef dinner costing a few hundred dollars. Massive conflict of interest! What other juicy gossip can we pull up to show Sally has a major conflict of interest and bring her down. This is becoming ridiculous – 2 cows as a gift and Sally is beholden to Dave! It seems to me that is your mission statement – every article is about Sally and Dave and WAPF. Very sad. Do you have a conflict of interest with your new organization you’re creating?
I just googled “cost of dairy cow”.
“Estimated U.S. April 2014 cull cow prices (beef and dairy combined) averaged $104.00/cwt. The average is up $2.000/cwt. from March’s revised estimate, and $21.60/cwt. more than April 2013. At that price, a 1,300-lb. cull cow is worth $1,352..Apr 30, 2014”
I imagine an organic dairy cow is more valuable.
Kaayla said in the interview it wasn’t a huge thing, but she wanted to make note of it as Sally did not disclose the gift in the WAPF official response.
Ah, yes… it says in the official response from WAPF:
“WAPF received $20,000 from Green Pasture in 2014 in sponsorship fees for exhibiting at our conferences, plus $360 for an ad and $250 for a membership, for a total of $20,610, about 1.1 percent of our yearly budget.”
http://www.westonaprice.org/uncategorized/questions-and-answers-about-fermented-cod-liver-oil-fclo/#sthash.hbZtMFhD.dpuf
Sally mentioned a $250 membership fee GPP paid, but neglected to mention the cows that are worth over 10x that amount.
It’s a minor point… but still valid.
The two things that I questioned about that disclosure were: 1) $360 for an ad? They have ads in everything. When I looked at ad prices for WAPF, I thought they were a lot higher, just for one journal. That’s why we never did it. Maybe somebody else could confirm. 2) She did not mention how much GPP gives to FTCLDF. Yes, FTCLDF is not WAPF, but it is STILL Sally’s organization and would make her further beholden to Dave Wetzel. 3) Dave Wetzel personally gives $5k per year to the Nourishing Our Children Foundation. I think it is easily possible that he is PERSONALLY giving money to WAPF and to FTCLDF. If he is, and Sally did not disclose this and the amounts, that is disingenuous at the least, and many would call it deceitful double talk. .
Depending on the genetics and when, a good organic cow could easily sell for over $3500/head. Grass fed genetics are very hard to come by. Figure $1.50-3.50/loaded mile on top of that; we are rapidly heading towards 10k$.
Thats peak prices, on average they were, if young, worth over 2 or 2500$/ea. However Dave could easily charge more.
I have no problem with Dave gifting Sally cows in and of itself, she more than warrents the gift for what she’s done for raw milk producers.
But it becomes problematic considering the undue consideration granted GPP by WAPF. I mean really, they are betraying their namesake, harming their org, and covering up problems with a product potentially killing people.
I am unable to recall that it was either expensive Himalayan sea salt or fermented CLO could be added to cow licks. If this was the case in this situation it is a good possibility it was believed these cows would produce sacred milk in high volumes for many more years than the normal organic grass fed cow. This would then explain the rationale for wanting these particular cows and hauling these rare cows such great distances. (humor)
“Brief perusal” is an oxymoron.
commenting just to keep up with the comments. so much to say, so little point in saying it anymore. people are going to cling to which ever side reflects their true feelings and experiences the most. people who know Wetzel and have visited his farm will read the good aspects of his reports. those that may have prior negative effects from FCLO or bad feelings from something WAPF related will see the good in Kaayla’s report. I wish that a professional PR team could have handled this entire thing for WAPF, in a less dismissive manner because I hate seeing this happen to an organization that has done so much good.
Sha: PR is merely a euphemism for propaganda, something that government and industry excel at. Obfuscation is one of their major accomplishments. I agree that this organization has done much good, but it seems to me that it has come to a dead end, with ideology, rather than science and the historical record guiding its pronouncements. Most of what I have learned concerning the relationship of food (and exercise) and health over the past few years has come from the paleo/primal community, not from the WAPF. The journal which just arrived had little of interest to me, although there was an extensive, and probably very good, article about commercial infant formula, so I barely read it. And the WAPF is promoting something that is clearly dangerous. Time to move on. By the way, why is Craig’s picture appearing next to my comment? Nothing against Craig, though he is an apologist for RPLO.
David. (I quote you) “The raw milk part of my mind wonders: Are those two cows from the GP FCLO headquarters now providing milk to Maryland residents?”
You might also wonder, as I do, have those cows consumed GP’s product for cattle made from spent rotted fish livers?
What seems quite clear , is that all too often the outspoken people that lead the charge and initiate groups and movements are not necessarily well equipped or gave the capacities and skills required to act as chief executives. We see the similar debocles with raw milk. This situation could have been all avoided by simply putting someone with proper skills in the chair. Sally Fallon may have done well to initiate the organization but has clearly failed to act appropriately. That does not take away from her previous efforts , but she has risen to her point of incompetence . Time to realize her strengths and find someone with the appropriate skills to take over that role. While still being involved in other areas.
Stepping down is highly warranted, especially to salvage the value of the brand
Jack, excellent point. We see this scenario in business all the time, where the brilliant startup entrepreneur lacks the skills to take a fast-growing business to the next level. the truly smart ones bring in capable managers. Those not as smart often flame out. I guess the same phenomenon happens in nonprofits as well.
From my experience, it’s not just the truly smart ones that bring in capable managers/executives. It is also those who are willing to set aside price and/or stubbornness and see the bigger picture and long-term vision.
I think we are all human and fallible, and even very smart people do stupid things and make dumb mistakes. Take Steve Jobs for example. One of the smartest guys on earth, but he had treatable cancer and refused treatment based on ideology.
I think the real issue here is the structure of WAPF. It has a self-appointed president who appoints the board members. No voting, nobody is elected. Nobody, including the chapter leaders and members, has a voice.
So as smart as Sally may be, if there are no checks and balances to correct for her human fallibility, people are going to mess up bad. And that seems to be what is happening.
Seems like you’ve spent a lot of time looking for anything to drag Sally and Dave down. I would love to hear your input and dissecting Jacob Friest’s report. I really haven’t seen you writing and commenting on these reports including Masterjohn’s. Guess you are beholdened to Kaayla Daniel and your new organization.
http://www.greenpasture.org/utility/showarticle/?eid=4285&usid=9d36a1ea40db8ed8790520accb9449d6&objectID=9527
Eric, there has been discussion on social media about Friest’s report, which questions Kaayla Daniel’s report. The question I have posed is this: does Friest have any known expertise or credentials in nutrition or lipid science? Look him up on LinkedIn and you find he is 3 years out of U of Nebraska and works for huge pharmaceutical Novartis. when I pose my Q to GP and WAPF apologists on Facebook, the lines go silent. You have an answer?
I’m asking you this – he wrote a report and can you respond to his report in entirely. Is he right or wrong here and there? Or are you just attacking he person. he brings up many interesting points that you could have choose to respond. But all I see is you attacking him now. You could have also discussed masterjohns report. Nope. Just one after another petty attack on Sally for this and that. It truly is sad what the complete patient has become. Objectivity has been tossed out the window as you engage into a personal vendetta articles after articles.
@Eric
Lab reports are just that. Data. It’s how you interpret the lab reports.
Watch the video interview I did with Dr. Rudi Moerck on cheeseslave.com.
Dr. Rudi has over 40 years of experience at nutraceutical, pharmaceutical and chemical companies and has a PhD in organic chemistry.
He knew exactly what I was talking about when I said, “But the lab tests showed no rancidity.” He said exactly what Kaayla said. Kaayla said the rancidity markers are low because they start out high in the early stages of rancidity and they drop back down again in the later stages of rancidity.
So, based on that, these lab tests showing low rancidity are NOT evidence that there is no rancidity.
And couple that fact that many, many people are experiencing health problems that are directly linked to rancid oils.
For example, many people (myself included — I tested low for vitamin D and I was diagnosed with scoliosis after taking FCLO for 3-4 years) had deficiencies in vitamin D and vitamin A after taking FCLO for extended periods. How is this possible? Doesn’t the FCLO have high levels of vitamins A & D?
If the oil is rancid, it would actually cause vitamin deficiency.
“Rancid fat can destroy vitamins, which could lead to deficiency. (This would be an indirect health effect of eating rancid fat, since the thing that harms you is the deficiency, rather than the fat itself.) (Source: Pavcek PL, Shull GM. J Biol Chem 146(2):351-5, 1942.)”
http://nutritionnutsandbolts.com/2012/08/01/rancid-fat/
I have scoliosis, which I was born with, but I have never heard of anyone just getting scoliosis out of nowhere in their adulthood when the spine is already fully formed. Is that even possible? If so, I can’t imagine how FCLO (even lethally rancid CLO spiked with rat poison) could possibly cause a spontaneous curvature of the spine??
@Amanda
Scoliosis and vitamin D deficiency
Search it up
http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/9/S1/O45
If you read my post, I show that eating rancid fat causes vitamin deficiency. I took FCLO for 4 years. If it was rancid, that would have caused my vitamin D deficiency.
It’s the first time I’ve been able to make sense of this since I was diagnosed in 2013.
My post: http://www.cheeseslave.com/fermented-cod-liver-oil-scandal-many-fclo-customers-report-health-problems/
Ann Marie –
The abstract you just linked to is titled:
“Association between vitamin D serum levels and ADOLESCENT idiopathic scoliosis” [emphasis mine]
You said that you were recently diagnosed with scoliosis well into your adulthood (not during your adolescence, when your bones would still be growing). This is the part that doesn’t make sense to me. Wouldn’t it seem more plausible to think that you might’ve had a mild case of scoliosis since adolescence that just went undiagnosed until recently than it would to assume that FCLO somehow caused a spontaneous curvature in your spine well after you’ve reached skeletal maturity as an adult?
@Amanda
My GP said “scoliosis” when she diagnosed me, but what I have is actually lordosis and kyphosis. It’s not a sideways curve – it’s a hunching of the neck/shoulders and an inward curve at the lower back.
From WebMD
http://www.webmd.com/back-pain/guide/types-of-spine-curvature-disorders
“The following conditions can cause lordosis:
Achondroplasia. A disorder in which bones do not grow normally, resulting in the short stature associated with dwarfism
Spondylolisthesis. A condition in which a vertebrae, usually in the lower back, slips forward
Osteoporosis, a condition in which vertebrae become fragile and can be easily broken (compression fractures)
Obesity, or being extremely overweight
Kyphosis. A condition marked by an abnormally rounded upper back
Discitis. Inflammation of the disc space between the bones of the spine most often caused by infection
Benign (harmless) juvenile lordosis
The following conditions can cause kyphosis:
Abnormal vertebrae development in utero (congenital kyphosis)
Poor posture or slouching (postural kyphosis)
Scheuermann’s disease, a condition that causes vertebrae to be misshaped (Scheuermann’s kyphosis)
Arthritis
Osteoporosis
Spina bifida, a birth defect in which the spinal column of the fetus does not close completely during development inside the womb
Spine infections
Spine tumors”
NOTE: OSTEOPROSIS
It’s likely that my low vitamin D caused the osteoporosis, which was the cause of the spine curvature.
Also, according to this site http://www.spine-health.com/conditions/spinal-deformities/kyphosis-causes-and-treatment
“The most common cause of kyphosis in adults is from vertebral fracture due to osteoporosis”
And what causes osteoporosis? We know vitamin D deficiency plays a big role
https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/health-conditions/vitamin-d-and-osteoporosis/
I”m going to talk to my doctor when I go back for a checkup and see if I can get a bone density test. I should probably also have my D tested now to see where I’m at… I’m now taking vitamin D3 and EVCLO and also eating nutrient dense foods rich in D and K2. And supplementing with collagen.
I think this can be reversed, which I’m happy about.
Honestly I was just so discouraged when I was diagnosed – and when my daughter got 3 big cavities. I really kind of just gave up on real food. I thought, how could this happen when we were doing everything “right” — raw milk, grass-fed dairy and meat, bone broth, etc.
Now I get it. If I was consuming a rancid oil, that explains it.
Ann Mari, I personally think that to directly blame FCLO for developing an extra amount of lordosis/kyphosis in other words a sagittal balance/ posture related problem is uncalled for. This problem can have so many causes that it is impossible to know for sure what has caused it. In most cases (unless you actually have a fracture of your spine )it can easily be corrected by seeing someone who deals with this kinds kind of problems. Suggestion would be to see a Rolfer or someone who are familiar with structural integration by the work of Tom Myers.
From your Univ of Maryland link.
“Osteoporosis is the most common cause of kyphosis in adults. It is much more common in women than men, due to losses of estrogen in menopausal and postmenopausal women.”
Per the Univ, your osteoporosis is from losses of estrogen, not Vit D.
Eric, I never attacked Masterjohn’s report. I thought he hedged on a number of key items, and I sought clarification during a discussion with him on Facebook. I quoted from part of his response in my post here, where he indicated potential dangers he sees in FCLO. As I said about the Friest analysis, he appears very negative about Kaayla Daniel’s report. But I know I’m not equipped to respond as a scientist to his analysis, since I’m not a scientist. I inquired into his qualifications to help determine the credibility of his analysis, and from all I could determine (from the LinkedIn link below), he’s no more qualified than I am to assess the report of Daniel, who is an experienced PhD nutritionist.
https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=AAkAAAvL41sB5Vzqod2P1XAnkHiL0F4J29PuzcE&authType=NAME_SEARCH&authToken=3pqS&locale=en_US&trk=tyah&trkInfo=clickedVertical%3Amynetwork%2CclickedEntityId%3A197911387%2CauthType%3ANAME_SEARCH%2Cidx%3A1-1-1%2CtarId%3A1446326434163%2Ctas%3Ajacob%20friest
I asked you if you could find anything that qualifies him as a nutritional or lipid expert to scientifically assess Daniel’s report. I presume from your non-answer that you couldn’t come up with anything.
He definitely hedged and left things very muddy and also refused to answer follow up questions seeking clarification. I believe his credibility took a huge hit.
Hi Eric. A couple of interested readers posted Dr. Friest’s analysis on a recent blog post that I did on the FCLO topic. I responded to the analysis there. http://articles.beeyoutiful.com/2015/10/22/beeyoutifuls-second-response-to-the-controversy-the-weston-a-price-foundation-green-pasture-fermented-cod-liver-oil/comment-page-1/#comment-3785
Oh wow. Good job Steve. Il
Thanks for that assessment, Steve. More eyes on it the better. Some oddball, unexpected comments from Dr. F.
Michaels’ latest interview with Dr. Rudi Moerk, at the above Cheeseslave link, did it for me. I’m just thankful that after choking down a few doses of FCLO from a promotional bottle given to me at a WAPF conference several years ago, that I decided against purchasing any more. As Moerck says in the interview, you might be able to paint your walls with heavily rancidified clo, but then they would smell fishy.
Misspelled Dr Moerck’s name in my post.
And after listening to Dr. Moerck’s interview, now I’m wondering about the quality of GPP CLO that was made before FCLO was introduced. Back then, did GP do any of the filtering and molecular distillation that Dr. Moerck was recommending for producing oil products?
As far as I know, Dave Wetzel never manufactured cod liver oil prior to the FCLO. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.
When I talked to him years ago, must have been 2009 or 2010, he said he started out making the butter oil. He then started importing CLO from Scandinavia. He said he went to tour the factory and was bothered by the industrial processing. Which is what inspired him to start making FCLO.
When I asked him how he figured out how to do it, he said, “I just put some livers in buckets and let them sit.”
I don’t know if Wetzel does any filtering at all of the FCLO. Does anyone know?
He’s definitely not doing molecular distillation since that is the industrial processing he said he objected to in the first place.
Hi Steve. Hard to believe 8.5 years have passed since we found this blog. I hope all is well with you and your family.
Hi Mary yes thanks all is well; hope the same for you.
I don’t have anything to add except the cow in the foreground looks a lot like one of mine (cow on the right in my avatar photo). She is darker in color than my photo shows, especially this time of year.
Carry on…
Interesting thing that I ran across while doing some research this morning:
http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/11/reflections-on-the-weston-a-price-foundation.html
“Some of the most zealous of his followers now run an organization called the Weston A. Price Foundation. A book by the foundation’s president, Sally Fallon, with the appealing title of Nourishing Traditions, has been a best-seller.
No doubt the foundation is doing good in awakening some people to the dangers of processed foods, but speaking as someone who has great respect for the work of Weston A. Price, I am sorry to say that to my eyes, the foundation that carries Price’s name today is unfortunately exaggerating what was unbalanced in his work, and abandoning much of what was good.
For one thing, the foundation exudes an attitude of “you’re either with us or you’re against us” that is reminiscent of the dark side of cults. Those authors and researchers who the foundation disagrees with are caustically mocked. If these authors happen to subscribe to the findings of modern nutritional science, they are mocked and condemned for being “politically correct.” Reputable scientists who dare suggest that saturated fat contributes to heart disease are denounced for being “as pc as pc can be–and totally ignorant.”
Regrettably, those currently running the Weston A. Price Foundation seem to be oblivious to the spirit of compassion which motivated the work of the man under whose name they act. Sadly, they are not just intolerant of people who eat or think differently than the way they advocate; they frequently demean and condemn those with whom they disagree. There is a nastiness, a mean-spiritedness, to their activities that is not worthy of the man in whose footsteps they presume to follow.
(My thorough response to their specific accusations against soy foods can be seen in my latest book — No Happy Cows: Dispatches from the Frontlines of the Food Revolution.)
For another example, Price discovered many native cultures that were extremely healthy while eating lacto-vegetarian or pisco-vegan diets. Describing one lacto-vegetarian people, for example, he called them, “The most physically perfect people in northern India… the people are very tall and are free of tooth decay.” Yet the foundation that operates under his name is strikingly hostile to vegetarians. Sally Fallon, the foundation’s president, denounces vegetarianism as “a kind of spiritual pride that seeks …to shirk the earthly duties for which the physical body is created.” She further insults vegetarians by saying they frequently suffer from zinc deficiency, but think it is spiritual enlightenment.”
Hi Steve,
That statement by Dr. Price saying “The most physically perfect people in northern India… the people are very tall and are free of tooth decay.” strikes me as odd. Did Dr. Price acutally visit India? I could found no reference to that or of the Pathan except for that statement. Maybe you can shed some light on that?
I don’t know if he visited India. The statement is in chapter 16 of his book.
One statement. One sentence. Nothing else about India or his trace there and checking their teeth. Odd for him and you to quote.
I have never noticed that sentence in Dr. Price’s book, but Andre Voisin, in his book Soil, Grass and Cancer had an interesting study done on the various diets in India. There were photographs of people from different regions, next to rats fed on what was commonly eaten in those regions. The meat-eaters, both rats and humans, were certainly much stronger and healthier. I’m not sure if this contributes anything to the discussion, but I thought of it, reading the above. It’s been awhile since I’ve read Dr. Price’s work (I am thinking it would be good to review it now, though), but I also seem to remember him talking about tribes in Africa, and he mentioned that the people who ate more plant foods seemed healthier to him than the Maasai, who ate so much meat and milk – but I don’t recall that he had any data to support that, it was more of an opinion.
Those pictures were McCarrison’s, from his “Nutrition and National Health”. It’s not the “meat eaters” who were stronger, it was the northerners. They had access to and used more animal products, mostly milk.
Thank you for sharing! I just read this -http://www.healthyindiandiet.com/book.html and starting to dig in and learn more. Very fascinating and good info!
Wow. Very interesting information and thanks for sharing. I love to get more info from the tribes of Africa. Why didn’t this study by Voisin get publicity and discussion???? Books like the China Study did instead and it was horrible and very wrong and had a pure ideological bent.
Eric, see my comment above. You are apparently not aware that this movement started in Britain, based on the work of Robert McCarrison. The reason Price didn’t go to India was in all probability because the diets there had been extensively studied by McCarrison. … And by the way, the UK equivalent of the Price-Pottenger Foundation is the McCarrison Society.
Wow! Oatstraw – thank you very much for that information. I had no idea and researching it now. I think the general idea is this – all society had animal products which is needed (in this case milk and cheese and maybe fish?). The second thing to note is milk was raw and not pasteurized as price and pottenger research show was important.
Another reason I heard that he didn’t go there and China and such is because he wanted to isolated civilizations where they ate local food. China and India were advanced civilizations.
Wow Thanks Steve for that article! It is
very interesting. I think I shall go back and read Price’s book again and take heed of the diet that the article stated Weston Price wanted his grandchildren to follow. I remember Anne Marie said in her article about how she felt about FCLO, that she had vegetarian friends from India who had perfect teeth like piano keys. And I like all this news since the three PPPs will include all eaters of healthy food. I also remember David Gumpert saying that he was now questioning everything Sally had proclaimed, including her stance on cholesterol and this article mentioned something about Weston Price and cholesterol. Also at the bottom of the article there is a bit of info about Stephen Byrnes who had been on the board of WP and wrote an article titled ” The Myth of Vegetarianism” and that he was quite
harsh about Vegetarianism and his bio said that he ate lots of whole milk, butter and meat. And the author added that Stephen Byrnes had died before he reached 40. I am just remembering something dimly from years ago I read online how Some one from Weston Price was defending the early death of a Weston Price advocate and said that he had aids, perhaps the same person. Lots for me, at least, to think about for my own diet ,
in light that Sally may have reinvented the Weston Price diet to suit her own tastes. I know Dr. Ron said on his and Anne Marie’s video that Sally had her own interpretations of Weston Price that were not necessarily Dr. Ron’s own, at least that is what I thought he might mean. OK new topic, I am bedeviled by thoughts of the long timers of FCLO who are still taking the original higher dosages of FCLO and never heard of the new lower dosages, and concerned that if they have heard of the controversy about the safety of FCLO, it is only from the WP propaganda machine. How to get word to them so they have access to Kaayla’s report and all the blogs supporting it. I know this is laughably naïve, but I wonder if there is a legal precedent for suing a non profit organization for with holding information about the possible dangers associated with a product they are recommending. It does still boggle my mind about the gag orders for the chapter leaders and not allowing any links to what they see is the
opposition. I suppose Sally has lawyers ,know that Dave W. has lawyered up and it may be
an impossible wall to hurdle. Been thinking of going to TV news or perhaps trying to contact Oprah. I have very faint ties to
a major financial magazine which might be interested in the business side of it. Just thinking of ways to get the word out to all the current users of FCLO so they can see both sides and make a decision from knowing all the current info. Well I will keep my ear to the ground for pro bono lawyers. And
I was wondering if the chapter leaders who have left still had contacts with their chapter members and could now contact them and give them helpful links. I do not have the time or money, but if I did, I tell you I would attend the California Weston Price meeting with little printed cards with all the important banned links and urge people to stop taking the oil. Ok hopeful dreaming. And would
Oprah really care, even if I could find a way to get her attention. Amanda Rose first mentioned
this a while ago, about the long time FCLO uses not being updated to new lower dosage recommendations. I find it so strange that the chapter leaders get to say that FCLO is not for everyone.
What the heck is that supposed to mean??? What is the gauge or requirement to be a FCLO person, or a not for you person. Most people would think that it means the taste is so bad, only a strong person can take it,maybe it is a legal move. Happy, only healthy sweetners, Halloween!
I thought it was interesting to see an outsider’s perspective on WAPF. Some key words in the description: cult, mocked, condemned, intolerant, demean, nastiness, mean-spiritedness, denounces, insult. Unfortunately, we’ve seen all of this in recent weeks, along with the “you’re either with us or against us” attitude. Apparently having any concerns about FCLO puts you firmly in the “against them” camp.
Yeah, Steve, it is interesting to know that these negative traits you mention, that
we have seen in recent weeks were seen by an outsider years ago. It isn’t just the FCLO thing, which makes me wonder what other cover ups of complaints about other products or services or anything recommended by Weston Price may have been swept under the rug, ignored or mocked and demeaned in the past.
Yes. I am not an “outsider”, though I’ve been careful to keep my independence. I have seen extensive problems since the beginning. As my earlier comment stated, it disturbs me that the new organization is being formed by people who were so easily taken in.
Lets not kid ourselves here. We’ve seen the ugliness coming both from within AND without WAPF in recent weeks. In fact, Joy’s posts have been some of the nastier ones followed by “and now the purge begins” and other anons. Ironically, Joy even attempted to SHAME ME for my decision to stop taking FCLO! All the while claiming that her sole purpose is to get people to stop taking the stuff. Things that make you go, hmmm…
Here is another outsider’s view of the what the WAPF teaches today: http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/PRICE.htm. Lawrence Wilson, MD, on “The Weston Price Dietary Program”. Dr. Wilson says Dr. Price’s teachings have been distorted.
Does anyone know the story of why the folks that founded WAPF split off from the Price-Pottenger Foundation sometime around 2000?
Joan Grinzi, director of PPNF is the gal to ask about this. She will be at the conference in MA next week.
@ Lynn_M: Hi Lynn – I hope you don’t mind but I borrowed your link to post at my forum. I usually ask before I do this, but didn’t have time (at the time I borrowed it and started to write the post), so I hope that’s ok with you. I’m sorry I breached protocol there! Anyway, thanks for putting up that link. It’s interesting to read but not something my family or most other people would ever be able to follow, at least not in my opinion. But that’s just me.
D. Smith, I don’t mind about a borrowed link at all. I figure the more people reading it, the better.
Aw come on Joy…. honestly I feel that we’re learning more about stuff and not really sure why we had to hammer Sally and WAPF. I mean they do provide A LOT of good stuff. We don’t have to cherry pick every statements and hold Sally’s feets to the fire for every little thing she may have done wrong. She’s human like we are all. I agree with much of what she has said and do disagree with others. Her attacks on other diets may have gone to the extreme. Let’s just learn more about our ancestors and dedicate ourselves to helping others instead of tearing down others.
She’s a teacher. Teacher’s are and should be held to a higher standard. I haven’t heard anybody really pitching a fit about her going after other diets. What I have seen, heard, and felt myself is indignation over being misled, outrage that health concerns were discounted, that safety issues were covered up and allowed to continue (both FCLO and G. Morell), and betrayal that the information that I shared with others was cherry picked, poorly vetted, perhaps even fabricated. Real harm has come to some people. Personally, I don’t think anybody needs to take Sally to task because she thinks vegetarianism will destroy a person’s health within 10 years. It is the fact that she has drunk so much of the FCLO koolaid, she can’t see anything else. She knows it is good, now she just has to go find the data to support that notion. That’s not the way it is supposed to work. And yes, she is married to the man, but that doesn’t mean that she needs to let him run around like a bull in a pasture full of cows at her conferences, and excuse any protests as being from women that are most in need of his healing. I haven’t heard of him trying this with men, or when any husbands of women are around. Perhaps that is because he stories haven’t come out. Perhaps that is because he prefers to remain ambulatory.
Its not a nitpic over one little thing Sally messed up on.
Everyone would have understood if she took a cautionary approach, without taking sides. But instead she full stop went on a campaign to defend FCLO at all costs, engaging in a campaign of censorship, intimidation, and distortion of the truth. There is valid reason to believe the product was harmful and people getting sick and her response was the exact opposite of appropriate.
I absolutely agree. I got involved in WAP by reading Price and the other authors that were publishing on organic farming early in the 20th C. That included McCarrison, who was really the founder, along with Albert Howard, of this movement. (Steve Solomon’s Soil and Health Library has a lot of this old literature.) McCarrison, of course, had been working in India, and so did experiments on South Asian vegetarian diets. As a result, much of the movement in Britain was focused on (lacto-) vegetarianism. This was all well known to Price, who manifested an appreciation of the broad range of dietary systems around the world. Unfortunately, the recognition of this element of the original movement was absolutely unacceptable to Ms. Fallon & WAPF, where there was constant elision of vegetarianism, which in India has always depended on high quality milk, and Veganism.
I am speaking for myself individually. While I am one of the Board members of the FTCLDF, I am NOT speaking for the organization. As someone who has been involved in conversations about Cathy’s work for FTCLDF, however, I can say that the characterization of why Cathy Raymond is no longer with FTCLDF is simply not accurate. I and several other Board members had raised concerns about Cathy’s compensation and her work duties for several years — long before she made any connections with the Paleo community, a community that I very much respect. Cathy may not have liked the re-structuring that was proposed, as she has apparently already expressed on this blog, but blaming any one person or the connection to Paleo is just wrong.
I have no intention of identifying who else raised concerns nor do I plan to elaborate on the substance. It would be both unprofessional and unproductive. But as one of the people involved, I am not comfortable allowing this mis-characterization to pass.
Are you saying that characterizations that Sally was unpleased with Cathy’s performance after every conference and that Sally did not like her contacting Paleo to try to do events and that Sally wanted to move her out are all untrue? When you say that you raised concerns about Cathy’s compensation and her work duties, what does that mean? I know that you said that you wouldn’t elaborate, but you could have just said that it didn’t have anything to do with Paleo and left it at that, but you specifically referenced compensation and work duties. I think you need to elaborate a bit.
Steve, I honestly don’t see how I can elaborate without crossing lines I consider wrong. Commenting on a contractor’s performance and compensation in an online blog would be neither professional nor productive. I don’t wish to address the inaccurate personal attack on Sally by descending to leveling my own attacks. I wrote as much in my first post as I think I could appropriately share.
You already obliquely referenced a contractor’s performance and compensation insinuating that it was problematic enough for board members to be chirping about it for years. You don’t see how doing that without elaborating is going to far. It’s like an accusation without any actual particulars behind it. It’s an attack which cannot be defended because it an attack by insinuation. But I understand that by going any further you would either get into a lot of he said, she said, and/or have to start presenting data that would back up your assertions which could be embarrassing and/or damaging to all sides.
I will ask again though, since you again referenced that it was a personal attack on Sally, are you saying that Sally WASN’T displeased with Cathy’s performance and that she DIDN’T want to have Cathy just go away?
Cathy’s treatment at WAPF and FTLDF is part of a pattern. I’m seeing it with many people I have interviewed.
Watch my next video that will be going up probably Monday with Annie Dru. She goes into great detail about how things operate within the WAPF organization and how people are treated. Her experience was very similar to what I experienced, and what Cathy communicated.
Ann – That may be very true the way she treats people. I could say the same thing about several non-profit disability organization about how they treated people and such. But by being negative and attacking individuals, you will be putting yourself on the same side as the other side you are attacking and be viewed as petty, vindicative, etc. I would highly advise that you stick with focusing on the subject of cod liver oil – is it rancid? What defines it as rancid? What does the data mean? How it is made and such? Refrain from all attack on individuals. I know that several have attacked Jacob Friest individually saying he only has 3 years of experience and such. I would just focus on what he said and either agree or rebut it. Steve did a good job on that. So all in all, I echo what Mark McAfee said – we are all on the same side. Be positive. Focus on the good. Don’t attack the individuals!
Hi, Eric
It’s not about attacking individuals. It has never been about that for any of the amigos.
In fact, the one thing I’ve seen from every “amigo” I’ve interviewed is they are all saying the same thing, “I take responsibility. I’m sorry for the role I played and I want to make things right.”
This is about exploring what the problem is, how it has impacted people, and what we need to do about it. Sadly, WAPF and GPP have shut down communications. They have issued their “official” responses and rebuttals and shut the door to further dialogue.
I debated whether or not to post Annie Dru’s interview (which now looks like it will go up Tuesday rather than tomorrow). Not because it’s not good and not because it’s not revealing and illuminating. It is all of these things.
Because it is raw. Because it is messy. Because it is real. Because it is painful.
But these are the reasons we need to see it and not hide it. Not sweep it under the rug.
Only by being REAL will we figure out how we messed up in the first place. Not just one person but many of us. In truth, all of us. It’s not just Sally Fallon or David Wetzel who screwed up. If FCLO is truly a bad product that is hurting people, I will admit that I screwed up for promoting the stuff. Cathy admitted that she screwed up for having blind faith in Sally. Dr. Ron admitted that he screwed up for not researching it more and for selling it to his customers.
How did we, collectively, as a group, screw up? That is the question here. And only by asking and endeavoring to answer that question will we collectively rise up to victory in this matter.
Let’s not shut down the discussion. We are so close to the resolution. We are on the same side, I agree, but we MUST face the painful truth. We screwed up here.
Hi Ann,
Never imply that we need to shut down discussion. I think we just need to try to get to the bottom of every questions. I totally agree we are all on the same side or all of us need to start thinking that way. Let’s focus on the issue and refrain from personal attacks. Not you in particular but all of us. Your blog posting as well as Steve were very well thought out and you have brought up a number of valid points. Let’s continue to sort these points out.
Ann Marie – What exactly is this “resolution” that you speak of? And when are you going to start interviewing people from the other side? Shouldn’t you be doing this in a more balanced sequence, instead of mounting a giant heap of accusations from one side to then dump all over the other side interrogation-style and call it an “interview”…?
@Amanda
What questions would you like Sally to answer?
What questions would you like Dave to answer?
I honestly think they’ve had the podium for a long time… and that’s why I’m seeking out others to hear other opinions.
But sure, I can interview them. Tell me what you want to hear from them, what questions you want answered that they haven’t already answered.
Honestly, I don’t think that any questions are necessarily off-the-table for Sally or Dave, but I think that you should respectfully accept the answers that they give you and move on to the next question …as opposed to rephrasing the same question repeatedly until you get the answer that you want (as you did with Chris Masterjohn on FB). I believe you call this asking “pointed questions,” but I’d call it an interrogation.
As far as specific questions go, I’m not sure. I’ll have to think about that one and get back to you.
Actually, why not just ask Sally (or any other WAPF board member, doesn’t necessarily have to be her) the same sort of questions that you asked Kaayla? It would be nice to have another board member’s point of view of what happened between Kaayla and the board, and the events that lead up to her secret investigation. I think that a lot of people would like to hear more than just Kaayla’s version of this story.
I thought we HAD heard more than Kaayla’s version of the story. I thought we had heard Sally’s version of the story on her Q&A, and Sarah Pope’s version of the story on her blog. That’s two board members we’ve heard from. Unfortunately their stories, while similar, disagreed on some very salient points – like exactly which test results they had in hand when they said that the test results showed the product was fine. Yes, I know, some might see this as a minor point, but it seems to indicate that one of them didn’t know which test results they actually had, probably because that board member didn’t even look at the test results, yet voted to do no further testing based on the test results. Make sense?
I’m all for Ann Marie interviewing both sides. I’m just wondering why I’m not hearing anybody advocating that GPP put up Dr. Daniel’s concerns about product safety, or lobbying that WAPF, healthy home economist, and all of the other pro FCLO bloggers. Where is the outrage that WAPF just put out a journal to its many thousands of members and had 4 articles that directly or indirectly talked about and/or promoted FCLO? Nothing from Kaayla Daniel, PhD about FCLO safety concerns. Not a word about it.
Now, if you can tell me that you’ve gone to Sarah Pope, to WAPF, to GPP, and to others and asked them to be more fair in their coverage, then please share with us their responses, and IMO, you can continue on in complaining about this site or cheeseslave having a definite slant to their coverage. Otherwise, it just seems hypocritical, doesn’t it?
The problem is both sides have bunkered down with lots of passion and anger toward each other. Definitely a big split in the community. Like the Republicans and Democrats. And both sides truly believe they are right. It will be a matter of time before we see the end results. The only way we’ll get to bottom of all this is to form a commission that goes over all the reports and counter report and do testing on all cod liver oil and compare the results and over time. My guess is Green Pastures will be out of business by then. Sadly with all the hostility I’m seeing, the real losers are all of us. We just have to figure out way to do good – there are many other battles out there from GMO, vaccines, protecting Natural supplements, raw milk, etc. And we’re in this bitter war.
No, Steve, I don’t think that it seems hypocritical to expect both sides to be interviewed since accusations are still being made by one side against the other, and there hasn’t been any attempt as of yet to allow the other side to challenge those accusations. I didn’t see any opinion pieces on “the amigos” in the latest WAPF journal, did you?
The beautiful thing about technology is that nearly every computer has a video recording device and Skype is simple to use. I would love to see a video put together by Sally or Dave. I would definitely watch.
GPP published a piece a week ago accusing Dr. Daniel of scientific bias (a terrible accusation in the scientific community) and of being unethical. Plus there was implication that she intentionally misled the public. Did you jump in there on that blog post and ask for fairness in publishing? Ask them to accuse Dr. Daniel of these things to her face so that she can respond? Maybe you sent them an email or called, because I didn’t see your comment on that blog post? Because, not doing that would be hypocritical since they are leveling serious accusations at her and it seems that there has been no attempt by them to allow her to challenge those accusations. Right?
But if I understand what you are saying, as long nobody makes accusations about Dave Wetzel and co., or Sally Fallon Morrell and co., and everybody talks about the product(s) only, then you’ll stop calling for “fairness of coverage”?
How many of the videos that Ann Marie have posted have had accusations toward pro-FCLO people? And what accusations do you want them to respond to?
Steve, you are really grasping for straws here. GP is not covering the controversy. They are defending themselves in response to the 100+ page report that Kaayla published in which she accuses them of those same things and whole lot more.
It seems as though you are intentionally missing my point here as we keep going round and round in circles over this as you continuously move the goal posts around.
I guess I am missing the point. And I’m not the one moving the goal posts. Let’s start with WAPF. WAPF was not accused of having a bad product. The only thing they have been “accused” of is voting against more testing. So, then they publish multiple defenses of FCLO on their Facebook page, on their website, and in their journal. That is pro-FCLO propaganda that has nothing to do with the accusation against them. And they have done much more. Yet you have not once called for them to do fair coverage.
Then there are the FCLO bloggers – the ones who make money from FCLO. None of them have been accused of anything yet they have come out in defense of FCLO and some of them have even leveled accusations at Dr. Daniel and others. Where is your call for fair coverage there?
I think that is enough to show the hypocrisy of your position. The ONLY people that you are calling on to provide fair coverage of both sides, are all on one side . . . .
As for GPP, they have been accused of using Pollock instead of cod – which they admitted to. They have been accused of having low vitamin counts in their product – which they haven’t denied. They have been accused of having high levels of amines in their product – which they have defended. They have been accused of having trans fats in their product (which they are defending) that come from damaged vegetable oil (which they are denying). They have been accused of having a product that is high in FFAs which they are also defending as being a good thing. They have been accused of having a highly oxidized product, which they are contesting. They have responded with accusations of conspiracy, of intellectual dishonesty, of unethical behavior, and more – all personal attacks. Yet, you don’t see a problem with that.
About ten days ago, Sandrine Love, a close associate of both Sally Fallon Morell and Dave Wetzel, encouraged me to inquire with them about placing warning labels and signs on Green Pasture products and conference exhibits. The warnings would alert people that taking FCLO increases risks of health problems like heart palpitations, rashes, hair loss, and other conditions. Sandrine thought they weren’t reading my blog, where I’ve made that suggestion a number of times, and that writing them directly might be preferable. So I emailed Fallon Morell and Wetzel, twice, making the request. I’ve not received even the courtesy of a reply (like “Thanks for writing. We’ll consider your request and get back to you shortly.”) Just radio silence.
David, you are more trusting than I am. If Sandrine Love had suggested that to me, I would have thought she was setting me up for something. 8 or 9 days ago she posted a link on my blog to another FCLO defense article. I haven’t seen her do anything BUT defend FCLO. And surely she, like the rest of us, has seen how GPP and WAPF have not even acknowledged that it is POSSIBLE for people to have an adverse reaction that wasn’t self-inflicted. The thought that they would willing post warnings which is akin to saying, “this product isn’t safe”, is ludicrous at this point. So, I find it very curious then that she would be suggesting you send such an inquiry to GPP and WAPF. The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if she was trying to channel some of your energies in this matter into less public channels.
Sandrine has the ear of both of these people. We’ve seen how she has gotten very rapid responses from both of them during the early days of this. If she legitimately thinks that there should be warning labels, I would think that request coming from her would mean a lot more than that request coming from just about anybody else – but I think you and a few others would be on the special “do not listen to” list.
However, I do understand, especially seeing the response to Dr. Ron, Dr. Daniel, you, some others that we know about, and perhaps some others that we don’t know about yet, anybody that wants to maintain a relationship with those individuals going forward, probably is very wary about what they might say to them. Asking them to put a warning on anything is for all practical purposes a recrimination, basically calling all of their talk of the safety of the product a pile of manure, and painting them as liars. Still, if she was concerned about the safety of people taking the product, I’m not sure why she is still posting defenses of it, as that would have the effect, if read and believed, of putting more people at risk. So, basically, I’m confused as to the motivation there.
Steve, I was thinking along your lines. If Sandrine was making this suggestion, perhaps she was privy to a change in thinking from Dave Wetzel and Sally Fallon Morell. I knew it was a very long shot. But sending a few emails seemed a small price to pay to just be sure Wetzel and Fallon Morell hadn’t begun to think in terms of the safety of their customers/members. Oh well.
Sandrine is loyal, and does truly believe in the organization, it is in her heart. She is not a bad person and strives to use kindness in communication. There is no need to question her motives. I have seen her ask people not to gossip and speak ill of others on both sides of this debate.
From watching Sandrine in action, I do believe that she is loyal, and a good person. Which just make this more strange IMO. If she believes the product is safe, then why would she make the suggestion of requesting warning labels of other people that also believe the product is perfectly safe? If she believes the product is unsafe, then why continue reposting articles promoting the safety of the product? I’m baffled.
David, maybe you are right that there is a change in thinking from Wetzel and Morell. It seems unlikely given what we have seen up to this point. Personally, I am not counting on anything that is said anywhere, in any way, to move them an inch off of the positions that they have taken. Safety for users and potential users of the FLCO product are my principle concern. It seems extremely unlikely that so many people would report so much improvement over various conditions – some of them in a short period of time – just by ceasing to take FCLO, if there weren’t at least some kind of connection, contraindication, or a negative interaction with something else commonly found in the WAPF diet. And many of them were taking FCLO (and sometimes in increasingly larger doses) to treat those very ills. It is not a preponderance of evidence, but it is enough to have serious concerns. I’m concerned about chronic inflammation, and vitamin deficiencies especially. Those can wreak havoc in the body but aren’t conditions that develop or are go away instantaneously. It’s pretty easy to point the finger if you take some Tylenol and break out in a rash a few minutes later. Not so here. Spreading the word of our concerns and asking people that they do an FCLO fast for a few weeks and see if they get better or worse, seems like a much more viable option than waiting on the GPP, WAPF, or the FDA to do something.
@Dave my, rather simplistic, take is it may be some way of face saving for The Grand duchess and Merlin Wetzel, or at least ass saving. or Sandrine is wanting a way to break free of them. Sally and Dave W are not so enamored of the magic FCLO to have lost all sense of how the real world works. I think they may have sent this odd message through Sandrine ,who is a good person by accounts at this blog, to cover their asses legally. They will say that Kaayla and Ron and you and Anne Marie and many others who had horrible, selfish motives, influenced the rest of us, and rather than put the loyal members though all this controversy and confusion, they chose, but do not agree with the claims, to put warnings on the label, even though they know the product is perfectly safe, but it is all the bad people in the FFFP organization who are responsible for the loyalists not having their magic potion any more if people stop buying it and Dave W. goes out of business. So maybe you will not hear back from them but perhaps there will be a new label anyway I agree a label like the one proposed would admit guilt, but perhaps they are acting on the best legal advice they can get. And contacting you, they knew it would be on this blog, testing waters perhaps? More people are becoming aware of the dangers and it looks worse and worse for them. Maybe they are both close to calling out ” A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse!” Ok no more of my comments till after Dec 15th when my acting work ends. I did mention the whole thing about the FDA, controversy here to my acting partner yesterday and he said that of course I should contact the FDA, even though he is very aware of how untrustworthy some government agencies are, but he was outraged about the children. I did not remember till later that his sister is an executive producer for a major network’s news division, I am going to ask him how I could go about getting a story like this on the air and could his sister help me. Also cannot contact the FDA till Dec 15th because I need to do research and craft what I am going to do, to say, and search out contacting my state officials and ask for help and see if there is some way local health stores can spread the word. And I am encouraged that so many people here are getting the word out. So hopefully for all the people who are against the FDA, (and I can certainly hear and see why) and of course I will take Steve Tallent’s advice about registering a complaint to GP first, but children are at risk and Ron and Rudy are right about this I do believe.
.
Oh yeah, contact THE MEDIA… brilliant idea. Like alt health hasn’t been ridiculed and marginalized enough as it is.
David, I might be remembering incorrectly but I don’t think she was actually in favor of this kind of labeling. She was just encouraging you to present your idea about labeling to them. I think she just wants people to bring concerns or suggestions directly to Dave.
Julie, that was mine understanding also.
That could be the case, that it was more about me presenting ideas directly to them, rather than on my blog. I presume that is so they can provide feedback and engage in a dialog. 🙂
I have been on the board for several organization and recently a non-profit disability organzation. I know about emotions and heated exchange and all. There were moments when I felt the Executive Director or the board members were being unethical. But a board member must be committed to working within the organization and confidentiality. Regardless of whether she felt there was impropriety or cover-up and such, Kaayla staying on the board and publishing it or not sharing with them is not right. She should have shared her report with them and discuss it with them. She also should have resigned her position if she felt that she could not work with the board anymore. WAPF was right in removing her. In any organization, you must work with the board to support the organization. If not, then get out.
@ Eric
Your comment underscores why the Annie Dru video needs to go up.
WAPF is not an organization that embraces dissent, discussion, conflict, respect for individual voices, on and on and on.
I don’t think anyone is at fault here. I think the structure of the organization is fundamentally flawed. No elections, no terms, no voting, no voices.
Without checks and balances, without votes, without our voices being heard, how can we trust Sally and the board to make decisions that benefit us? They are just blindly leading. Yes, trying to do their best. Trying to make good decisions. But there is no feedback loop. They can’t hear our voices because they haven’t set up a way to listen.
Yes I have been on boards where organization blindly trust their leaders and lack checks and balances. It is testimony to the strength of weakness of the organization and their viability in the long run. I certainly would hope that changes are made for everyone’s benefit. It is definitely not good or people to put down others. We shall see where things go…..I hope a spirit of positive forward development will begin and bring all of us together. Too much bad stuff happening with Monsanto, the Pharma industry, FDA, CDC, USDA, etc. and we do need to organize more effectively and spread the word.
Agreed!
@Eric
From Ron Schmid’s new book, Primal Nutrition:
“As impressive as Weston Price found the physical strength of primitive Eskimos in Alaska and northern Canada, even more impressive was their character — their courage, honesty, and openness, dedication to family and community, and ability to survive and thrive in the harsh northern environment.”
Cathy Raymond just posted that quote in a thread on my FB page and I thought, that’s it. That is who we really are. We are not only strong physically, we are strong in character.
And strength in character is courage like Kaayla and Dr. Ron displayed. It is honesty like Cathy Raymond expressed — and you will also see from Annie Dru. David Gumpert has shown openness. Steve Tallent and Randy Hartnell have shown honesty.
We are all dedicated to our WAP community. And this community will survive and weather these harsh conditions.
Even if it means we move to a new habitat and we create a new group.
Honesty, openness, courage, dedication to the group — we must have these characteristics and they must be rewarded in our tribe. If not, what’s the point? It’s just a fraud and we will not have a healthy community.
the Esquimaux were dedicated to each other because actual consanguinity is much, much more profound than any quarter-inch-deep affiliation modern people think they have, to do with the number of internet “likes” from people they’ve never met, and never will. Part of the human experience, is : submitting personal interest, to the greater interest of the tribe in return for the same treatment. Today in Ham-merica, race-mixing is official public policy, relentlessly promoted in every aspect of public education / the media … meanwhile, preferring one’s own tribe, is all-but a criminal offence, if you’re white. Opposition to the Campaign for REAL MILK is rooted in the strategy of our mortal enemies = to starve us out, to weaken us by stealing the nutrition out of the mouthes of our children. No mere co-incidence that the most allergenic foodstuff is = homo milk from factory farms.
Ann Marie Michaels, if it’s Sally’s organization, then how would she need votes or a democratic process? Maybe it’s the type of entity under which they file… I think I agree with what you are trying to accomplish.
Nonetheless, voting invites politics. That runs counter to science.
I think putting out information with specific references and ranges and, yes, with varying interpretations is key.
From where does SFM derive 2 TBSP FCLO recommendation and how come we are not discussing that research? Because it doesn’t exist. She just pulled it out of her @$$.
Thank you for your videos. They are awesome.
I wanted to add folk medicine. I love Jarvis ACV writings. Learning about and keeping old traditions from around the world alive is also key.
@oxidized I think Ann Marie’s point is that a nonprofit by definition is NOT someone’s personal organization. It’s owned by the members who, usually, elect their board. However, WAPF’s internal staff and board structure has been set up to permit Sally to control every aspect of how it’s run, as though it is her own personal business.
Like a cult. 501c3. Not to beat a dead horse, the cow gift violates,“…1… with no private benefit flowing to any member, director, shareholder, or any other person with control…” http://www.westonaprice.org/wp-content/uploads/2000/01/wapftaxexemptstatus2.pdf Though maybe she reported it, for all I know.
Judith,
Thank you for sharing and communicating on this sensitive subject matter….it is helpful and constructive. More of this kind of communication is needed to help and gain better understanding.
I see all of us being in one boat together.
FCLO Roulette …..this says it all. http://www.cheeseslave.com/fermented-cod-liver-oil-scandal-many-fclo-customers-report-health-problems/
Karen, I just love your comments, I know I have been accused of being. well let’s say, too enthusiastic, but sue me, I really appreciate your comments, they make me feel there is hope in the world of pomposity and mendacity and phoniness and self righteousness and sneakiness and unworthiness and worminess. I have nothing to lose, so I do have sympathy for those so valiantly trying to cover Sally and Dave W;s asses, cause they must be some scared dude’s afraid of losing something they think they need, but… well I will shut up now
@Joy
One of the things that will come out of Annie Dru’s video… which will be posted probably Tuesday… is that being passionate and expressive is a good thing.
In fact, let’s just call a spade a spade. ANGER is a good thing. In this organization made up of, in the vast majority, women, anger is discouraged. I’ve heard over and over in interviews from WAPF members and leaders the messages they were told: “Be nice.” “Don’t express your opinions.” “Tow the line.” “Shut up and get back to work.”
In truth, anger is healthy when it is warranted. Anger helps us set boundaries to protect ourselves and others.
Is a supplement making people sick? If we thing there is even a possibility of that, it is righteous and it is correct to be angry. If a supplement has the possibility to make people sick, anger is the only appropriate response.
If we THINK not thing (wish we could edit or comments!)
Ann Marie, anger is not the only appropriate response. Apathy and just walking away is also appropriate when you’ve had enough and just stop caring, because then you are not part of it anymore and skip the pain it may cause you.
I am not advocating that option, and that’s why we all keep coming back here and staying informed and participating any way we can. As Mark says, teach teach teach and learn learn learn. No matter how good it may be it can always get better but only if you really try.
I have personally disagreed with certain individuals here from time to time and had to eat my hat and apologize, but sometimes that’s what it takes to keep the peace and spirit alive.
@Ora Moose
If people are being injured, then apathy is not the appropriate response.
Ann Marie I completely and patiently agree with you, people should speak out and make others aware of their personal experience with these things for the sake of overall caution and safety, but different people react different ways and may opt to save themselves the time and trouble to go public.
David, for the sake of equality and accountability is it be possible to change the blog format and indicate who flags you thumbs up or thumbs down? If you get attacked it would be nice to know who’s who and would keep them honest even if it’s only their screen name. Not that we’d attack back or defend ourselves…
Also, it would be nice to see the total feedback on thumbs up or down for individual posters, could it be that some people are prone to negativity for not one but many commenters, yet they can remain incognito. Heck, it’s possible that only one or two people are responsible for all the thumbs down, or up but if faced with public disclosure they might reconsider their clicking. And as a third aside, could it be that ONLY registered members can click on the thumbs rather than anyone that is just cruising for a bruising?
Thanks for reminding me Anne, coming from an earlier generation, as a little girl, I can remember those admonishments well. And I loathed the goody goody two shoes girls who followed, pretending to be what the adults were advocating. I wanted to slap their smug smirky, sly faces. They were unkind and dishonest and no fun to play with. I know they could not help it, it was about survival for them and it was the best they could do. I on the other hand said what I thought and saw through phoniness at an early age, but gee I did have a lot of fun being what was considered naughty then. Of course I got in trouble, but I identified with Tom Sawyer and just took my lickings and went off to a new adventure, I am glad I did not waste my child hood on trying to please adults. And I still had fun playing with dolls and wearing frilly dresses in between adventures. Anyway it was a revelation that the goody two shoes behavior is still expected of women at Weston Price. I was staggered by your compilation of FCLO probable injuries last night, so glad you posted them. See I was in a spiritual group for a while and when I woke up to the fact that the tenants had been borrowed from other real spiritual paths and this group was about the money and hood winking people, It was so wonderful to go to blogs denouncing this group and I would read over and over the comments to get them in my bones, because as everyone who has gone through a disillusioning experience with a group, it is hard to leave the mother ship, very painful, So I am banking on all the great stuff you are presenting and all the sometimes anguished comments here and at Kaayla’s website and face book page and a few other places will be a source of comfort for those who are just hearing about the dangers of FCLO. Oh and those goody two shoes girls, well they grew up to be pretty nice people after all, of course the 60s loosened them up a lot!
….After the Anne Marie Michaels’ report last night it’s time we demand a voluntary recall of FCLO from Green Pastures. If they don’t police themselves on the basis of this horrific number of cases, then the FDA will have to police them.
Green Pastures lake of due diligence is what gives the rest of the progressive health movement a bad name.
See the reports at http://www.cheeseslave.com
I agree – a recall is necessary at this point. No question about it.
FCLO Roulette is what this is. ….someone called it that earlier and boy does it fit.
Yes, there needs to be a voluntary recall but that’s not likely from what I see. The heart problems and research discrepancies alone should have brought recall on. But now seeing this list of all the rest of problems…it’s just stunning.
How does one does one demand a recall? I went on line and found that the attorney general of Oregon was able to demand a recall of a health food supplement, but it was because of the ingredients in it. And of course the FDA, Do we write, phone the FDA? Do we contact our senators, congressmen? I think what Ann presented last night is the tip of the iceberg, all those other people suffering slowly still have not a clue. I wish the chapter leaders could be convinced that the only moral thing to do is contact all of their chapter members and urge them go to your site Anne, and urge them to demand a recall.
But what is the first step? The idea of the FDA is awful, but what other recourse is there? We gotta save lives.
I went to the FDA website and found that they recommended in the end that you contact your regional FDA office. Its easy to navigate- just google around. But you can file a Medwatch report on their system also. http://www.fda.gov/Safety/MedWatch/HowToReport/default.htm The more people that report a problem – like thos Ann Marie showed in her blog today- with this product it might come to the FDA attention for an inspection. The FCLO is sold across state lines so that it would be the subject of interstate commerce, thus a Federal matter. But you also have a State Health Dept. and even a local health dept where you could report this matter. Not only hydrolytic rancidity, but false labeling, etc. It’s also sold in Europe & would come under the purview of the EU health authorities.
Oh yes, I would report it to the Attorney General too. They usually have a complaint page and you could call in. If you know someone in the office, it would be more helpful to get their attention.
The FDA has already been called to action on this from multiple sources, which you would know had you read the comments here. They are probably already investigating it. Calling them again and again is not going to make them act any faster.
By the way, Joy… the first step is to refrain from shaming people who decide to stop taking FCLO, and the second step is to refrain from accusing those people of “sneakiness” when they openly share that decision with others. I hope you are taking notes here, Joy.
Perhaps you should get off the internet and go picket outside of GP?
Perhaps Green Pastures is reading this blog and realizes that recalling sooner rather than later is not only the ethical thing to do, it’s the best way to limit your liability.
Word on the street is that neither GP nor Sally Fallon read this blog. Hence why all the chirping going on here is much a do about nothing.
@Amanda, 30,000 people have already read Cheeseslave’s blog and the hits keep coming. It doesn’t matter if Sally reads it. She will hear about it! The world is hearing about it.
We love our fact collectors and whistle blowers!
That’s great that the world is hearing about it. But wishing for a recall in the comment section of this blog will not make it happen. Flooding GP’s phone line with angry calls, on the other hand, might actually get somewhere.
I heard that too, that neither Dave Wetzel nor Sally Fallon Morell read my blog. My response to the person who reported that: Sally had to be reading my blog to threaten chapter leaders with excommunication for linking to it. She wouldn’t resort to such extreme punishment if she didn’t know what they were linking to, would she? Or, let’s put it this way, it would be pretty irresponsible leadership to ban your followers from linking to a blog because of its content, and you are unaware of the content. Let’s get real, Amanda.
David – Yes, I remember reading that conversation as well. I still think that it’s laughable to imagine that Sally Fallon has the time of day to keep up with your on-going series on this FCLO, not to mention the hundreds of comments flowing through the comment sections. But that’s beside the point.
People need to start harassing Dave Wetzel about a recall, not Sally Fallon. Maybe he will listen and maybe he won’t… but there’s only one way to find out, right? We know that complaining about it here is not going to lead to a recall. Even if there is somebody reporting bits and pieces back to him, that would not have the same effect as it would if all these people picked up their phones and gave Dave W. an earful themselves. The fact that they aren’t doing so suggests in itself that they must not feel strongly enough about it to bother.
See my new post for more on Wetzel and the health issues.
To my knowledge, you are correct that they don’t frequent here. But I know for certain there is at least one person that reads this (and other sites) and reports directly to Dave, and possibly to Sally as well.
I have a hard time seeing a recall being forthcoming. I do not think they are bad people that do not care about health and only care about profits. I think it is because they don’t believe it possible that their product could ever go bad, ever be dangerous, or ever do any harm to anyone or anything. Just listen to the way they talk about it. They treat it is magical. They are ready to rewrite science books to try to explain it. They have said they don’t think FDA label laws apply to it because it is unlike any other product in the world (although traditional). They have seen primary oxidation markers in the early stages of their fermentation process – but somehow it is not oxidation. (Masterjohn tried to subtly imply it was vitamin K or something similar, but there is virtually no K in CLO ever (which is why you need butter oil) and whatever it is, it isn’t there beforehand, and isn’t there after . . . kinda like, you know, a primary oxidative marker in a very rancid oil.) They don’t know what it is, but DEFINITELY not oxidation. I honestly think that they believe that every adverse reaction that is being reported is due to other factors (and in some cases they are probably right). I believe they are literally INCAPABLE of believing ill of this product. It’s like if somebody told you that goldfish were the smartest creatures on earth and were plotting to take over the world. It is not just unbelievable but inconceivable. You cannot even take it seriously for a moment. That’s the way they feel about FCLO safety concerns. I don’t think you’ll see a recall unless something very traumatic happens and I don’t even want to imagine what that might look like.
I don’t know, but I have a feeling that if people started calling Dave W. threatening to call the FDA on him if he doesn’t voluntarily recall his product ASAP there just might be a chance that he’ll change his mind. Better yet… tell him the FDA has already been called, and so he might want to recall the product himself before they get to him. I mean, why would these angry people NOT want to do this? I can’t understand why this hasn’t been attempted already. Clearly this is the “first step” towards achieving a recall. I guess it’s just easier to assume that it couldn’t possibly be effective?
@Amanda Your writing style is so similar to Sally’s daughter, Sarah Fallon of Wired magazine.
I had to go back and check–and sure enough–the same, quirky snark, calling for action.
http://www.wired.com/2015/06/follow-friday-science-fraud-watchdogs/
lol …um… thanks?
Bingo! Heifer Hugger
That’s a good catch. Whether or not correct, “Amanda” is apparently invested.
That’s right. I am invested. Because WAPF is the only weapon that I have at my disposal to try and save my family from death by medicine. They believe pretty much everything that their doctors tell them, and as a result my mother has already been misdiagnosed with so-called “stage 0” breast cancer and was swiftly convinced by her doctor to undergo a completely unnecessary double-mastectomy, including the removal of lymph nodes under her arms …all thanks to the fraud of “early detection” fear mongering. Now she is telling me that if her doctor recommends chemo in the future she will put herself through that as well. My father, who goes to his doctor almost obsessively for all manner of unnecessary testing, was recently told that he needed to get on statin drugs for the “high-cholesterol problem” that his tests showed. Prior to that he felt perfectly fine, and then he became sick and had severe back pains immediately upon taking the statins. After much nagging by me I was FINALLY able to convince him to STOP taking the statins (miracle!) by showing him information from WAPF. I am currently trying to convince my mother and sister to start eating better according to WAPF dietary principles (my sister has herself and my nieces on a fat-free diet and my mom’s diet is basically SAD)… and I’m slowly starting to make some headway with them on that. WAPF is literally the only non-medical resource that my family members will even remotely entertain as not psudo-scientific quackery, so yeah, I take this attack on the credibility of WAPF personally. I think it’s great that “the amigos” are starting a new nutrition-based foundation, but don’t attack the WAPF in the process because some people’s lives actually depend on it.
FDA prosecuted in the past for those cod liver oil manufacturers who had different levels of the vitamins on the label than actually in the product BUT NOW? Maybe under public pressure.. ALSO–Some of the rat bioassay results that Dave Wetzel refers to as the end all in vitamin D testing– are online– some chapter leader posted it–even though it says “confidential” but parts of it are missing….and as one of the many results, it said that his skate oil had absolutely no vitamin D activity. Dont know how much D GP claimed was in their skate oil.. IF YOU WERE TAKING THAT FOR VIT D- forget it. C Masterjohn refers to the bioassay in his article on vitamin D as run by Deltanoid Pharmaceuticals (pg 60-61), not the University of Wisconsin as Wetzel had claimed in a post on his site.
A recall sounds like a good idea, but getting the FDA involved is not such a good idea; although there are no doubt honorable people working in the regional offices, the folks in Washington, D.C don’t have clean hands, any more than do those running the CDC, EPA, and the California Legislature. It’s a slippery slope.
thanks Aurjan and Gary. I wish we could think of someway to have this news go viral.
Something I keep forgetting to mention Ann, I think I remember reading on your Cheeseslave blog long ago that you were taking dried liver supplements from grass fed cows from Argentina, and your blood tests showed elevated arsenic levels and you finally were able to pin point it was from the liver capsules and you researched it and found that there were high levels of natural arsenic in the grazing soil of Argentina. If it was not you, sorry, but what about the arsenic levels in the butter oil I wonder if anyone has tested that. Also had a friend who sells the butter oil totally mystified why some of the capsules are pure white and some are the palest of yellow. She loves real butter and sells bright yellow butter, it says on the bottle Bees Wax was used as a thickener, and my friend who has also spent years working with bees said that bees wax is also bright yellow not white, so it cannot be that, she is saving up money to have it tested for Veg oil. I told her that Kaayla already tested it and it was found rancid. My friend said once a new farmer she began buying butter from was adding Crisco to his butter and she knew right away because of the texture and boiled it and sure enough the veg oil separated from the real butter. Never used new farmer again. So that is why she suspected veg oil in the butter oil but I am sure Kaayla covered that, but why are there pure white capsules? She showed me and it is weird especially when one sees pictures of other people’s butter oil, which is bright yellow, of course I have never seen these other products with my own eyes but the butter I get, grass fed and all is really yellow. Some one at Kaayla’s blog melted the butter oil and said it was one fourth wax! I only bring this up because some of the comments you showed on your blog mentioned people were also taking the butter oil with the FCIO. Could arsenic in the butter oil have made the damage from the FCLO worse? I know that the people who sell the dried liver supplements always say they carefully test for arsenic, just wonder if Green Pastures ever did. OK, finally got that off my chest.
the stench of fermented fish-guts has hit the proverbial fan, and what’s the reaction of the internet “tribe” of alternative health advocates – usually so vociferous against overbearing officious meddling in personal affairs? In high dudgeon ( as its self-image as ‘experts in taking charge of our own health’, is insulted ) the mob heads off to Washington DC … a’tattle-tailing to Big Sister Government. The smirk on the face of FDA Commissar Sheehan = in the only known photo of him = just got bigger with glee.
I heard third hand that rat bioassays are good for some vitamins and used to be used for D until it was discovered that rats had an affinity for D2 and that was skewing the numbers. Apparently there are some vitamin pathways in rats that are similar to humans and so are appropriate for determining the effect on a human, but vitamin D is not one of those. Masterjohn obliquely references weird vitamin D behavior in rats in his article in the journal but doesn’t conclude that rat bioassay of D is useless. He wouldn’t, because their new narrative is that even if FCLO has no vitamin D2 or D3, it is still a good source of vitamin D because of as yet unclassified vitamin D metabolites.
Steve: Thanks. I didn’t bother to read the article, because I figured it was just an oblique defense of RPLO, or much of the rest of the journal, because it is now suspect, all of it, nor was much of it particularly interesting. A wasteful use of good scientific talent by the WAPF.
TBH, I didn’t read the entire article myself, just enough to verify that it was related to the FCLO thing. Only one manufacturer was referenced in the article – so you can see how far Masterjohn went to get his information.
I actually read the ENTIRE article. If I had not known any better I would read it and say..OK, so I guess tha D2 in FCLO is just a component of any cod liver oil. As for my lab test being low, no worries, I just am genetically adapted to low levels..or, maybe the test was an oversimplified measure of what I really need. I would feel comfortable with my low test and continue to take GPFCLO for my vitamin D needs and continue with low vitamin D and all the health problems associated with it.. My real life experience proved that I could get my levels up and quickly and no, I am not just genetically adapted to low vitamin D levels because the FCLO wouldn’t raise it.
Are we truly discussing the FDA? Really? REALLY?!?! On a food freedom blog? How fast we are willing to throw out our principals in the pursuit of something we do not agree with. This is disappointing on many levels. In the words of Dr Price, “Teach, Teach, Teach.” If you conduct yourself in a responsible manner, give good information, then people will come to you. They will listen. Let us get past the whole white knight syndrome here, and stop acting like other people need us to save them. You can empower them to save themselves by giving them good info. Allow them to decide what products they want to take or not. Damn.
Pathetic isn’t it? Some people just don’t seem to get it. Either you welcome the nanny-state in to police our choices or you don’t. Which is it? You can’t have your regulatory cake and eat it too.
Well, judging by the voting on the comments, one thing seems apparent. In spite of WAPF telling its chapter leaders not to link to this page, there are quite a few of the pro-FCLO crowd following these conversations, although they don’t seem to be commenting. I haven’t seen voting down like this since one pro-FCLO blogger directed all of her followers to come here and comment.
So, I have a challenge. I know you believe that FCLO is not just safe, but perhaps even miraculous. So prove it to yourself at least. Write down everything that you can think of that is a problem/condition with you and your family. Stop taking FCLO for a month. Replace with a different supplement like a CLO or maybe vitamin A, D and Omega 3 supplements – which is what you think you are getting from FCLO. After a month, review those conditions, and your health in general. If nothing has changed, they maybe you learned something and maybe you didn’t. If some things have improved, but others have worsened, then maybe some more experimentation is necessary, depending on what those conditions are. If things have improved, then you at least know something that you can do to improve your condition. If things have worsened, as I think most proponents of the product expect (I certainly would have), then you can get back on your FCLO, confident that you are doing the best thing for your family. And regardless of how it turns out, you have a story to tell. What do you have to lose?
Steve–Your experiment/challenge is a great idea. I am sharing it with others.
I made a similar suggestion to people in our local WAPF chapter (only I didn’t present it as a “challenge”) whenever I announced my decision to stop taking FCLO, and my reasons for having done so, to the group. That is as far as I’m willing to go in the way of “getting the word out” since I have no definitive proof one way or the other as to the dangers/safety of FCLO.
I wish that I could have shared the CHEESESLAVE interview series, as I’ve found parts of it to be of some value. But, ultimately, I just don’t feel comfortable sharing due to the running theme of passive-aggressive WAPF blame and also because of the call-to-action advising people to seek salvation from the FDA.
Steve, that is an interesting proposal with a lot of merit to it. I’d suggest, though, that it would make more sense for (1) people to try this regardless of what type of CLO they are taking, and (2) not replace the oil with any other supplement for the test period.
I know quite a few people, who were following a healthy diet and lifestyle, who saw improvements in their health when they started taking FCLO. These are people who already had diets high in Omega 3’s and fat-soluble vitamins, so it doesn’t make sense to claim that the vitamins in the FCLO provided a benefit that outweighed the supposed rancidity. These anecdotes deserve to be given just as much credence as the negative ones.
The hypothesis that fits both sets of anecdotes is that FCLO doesn’t benefit everyone and that some people have negative reactions. But why? There is probably more than one reason. One of the fundamental tenets of a holistic health approach is that each person is different. This includes both hard-wired genetic differences and differences that are due to what has happened to our bodies over the last 10, 20, 30, or however many years. And what is beneficial at one point in time might not be beneficial as the person’s body changes.
Your proposal is a reasonable way to try to start making sense of the anecdotes and testing different hypotheses, but it could be confounded if people try substituting with other supplements. And it would make more sense, for both individuals’ own benefit and for the larger analysis, if people took this approach with all types of CLO.
A few of the confounding aspects, based on my own health experiences and research:
I’ve been looking into mineral balancing analysis of hair tests, and have read more than one practitioner’s comments that some people should not be supplementing with CLO or Vitamin D at all because of their metabolism type. So if someone sees a rise in CRP or other stress signal, it may be due to the way these supplements interfere with mineral metabolism for their specific type. And types change over time, so it may be a positive supplement at one point and then become a negative one.
Plus, some people may be sensitive to CLO in general, and it may simply be more obvious with FCLO because of the amines or some other factor that is concentrated in the FCLO. Case in point: my daughter had reflux as an infant. When I gave her a small (about 1/8 tsp) dose of FCLO, it was very apparent within a few days that it was making her reflux worse. So we stopped. Shortly after, I tried giving her the Rosita CLO because I was impressed with the claims that it was so gentle that it could be given even to autistic children, who are often sensitive to all sorts of things. At first, it seemed to work fine, and I ordered a second bottle. But over the course of about 3 weeks, we saw her reflux get worse again – not as severe, but a clear change given how closely we tracked her health. We stopped giving her the Rosita CLO, and she immediately improved. If we had not been watching her so closely, we might not have picked up on the more subtle problems with Rosita, but they were definitely there. I don’t blame the FCLO or the Rosita, or claim that either is a “bad” product that everyone should avoid – but my daughter needs to stay away from both unless and until her system changes enough.
As for the failure to raise Vitamin D levels, there can be many reasons. I know one from personal experience: heavy metals interfere with Vitamin D metabolism. Heavy metals are a widespread problem in our country, and many people don’t even realize that they are likely to have inherited them from their mothers in addition to their own lifetime exposure. The interference from heavy metals can be overcome by taking very high doses of Vitamin D (as I was doing at one point), but the need for those high-dose supplements is a symptom of an underlying problem, not proof that the levels in a whole foods product like FCLO are insufficient or that the product is depleting one’s vitamins.
Science is all about what questions you ask and how you test them. And when you are testing something in a complex biological system, you have to take alternative causes and potentially confounding effects into account, or your tests are invalid.
Somebody should set up a Survey Monkey survey and reporting service for this. They can stop fclo and report back results or just report their experience
Interesting suggestion Augie.
Judith, thanks for these insights. You have stated as well as anyone the challenges associated with ascribing cause and effect when it comes to supplements and food. As I was reading through your analysis, I was lamenting to myself how dearly we have missed this kind of sage advice during this unfortunate saga.
In a sane atmosphere, this kind of advice would be offered by the supplement makers, like Green Pasture or Rosita. I haven’t explored Rosita in any depth to be able to comment on what they advise, but I do know that Green Pasture hasn’t done this kind of practical user-based exploration. Indeed, since late August, when Kaayla Daniel’s report on the testing she had done of GP FCLO came out, the response–by both Green Pasture and by the Weston A. Price Foundation (its main sponsor/backer/promoter) has been nearly entirely defensive and dismissive. Indeed, that is why we are here at this point in time, on this blog, discussing and debating the seeming avalanche of health problems being reported in connection with the Green Pasture FCLO.
We mustn’t forget as we discuss this that it has been the Green Pasture/WAPF response, or lack of response, that keeps this controversy going, and has turned it into a debacle. It was WAPF that threw out two loyal and committed members/officers/sponsors (Kaayla Daniel and Ron Schmid), for attempting to foster sane discussion. It was WAPF that threatened legal action against chapter leaders who linked to my blog and Kaayla Daniel’s report, and actually terminated a chapter for failing to remove its links. Those are aggressive legal threats against the dissemination of different and dissenting views of the sort you have posted, not to mention against free speech.
It would be real neat if we could see some sort of formal testing based on the idea Steve suggested, and you have endorsed. Let’s get into the science of what’s going on, and leave the politics and vendettas behind. To do that, though, we’ll need to see a shift in attitude and approach from Dave Wetzel at Green Pasture and Sally Fallon Morell at the Weston A. Price Foundation.
David, I’m sad that you chose to focus on placing blame. I strongly disagree with your characterization of how, who, and why the discussion has gotten to this point. I have no interest in being part of a blame game, which is why I was trying to focus on a productive path forward instead.
One of the main points I was trying to make is that the discussion to date has ignored some basic scientific and holistic health principles. One could propose, as Steve did, a way for people to explore health concerns that some believe are linked to FCLO. But if the discussion does not take into account the fact that some people react to all CLO or have problems with Vitamin D supplementation, or common underlying factors such as heavy metals (to name just the specific aspects that I have personal, direct experience with), then it won’t lead to useful information – just more grist for attacks.
If you truly want to get into the science, then you have the power to do so. It doesn’t take anyone else making changes — each person is in charge of their own focus.
Judith, I thought perhaps you were suggesting some kind of formal study to test out results from Steve’s idea. The Weston A. Price Foundation would be a great source of subjects for such a study, since many take cod liver oil of some kind, along with other supplements. It could be underwritten by several of the principal CLO manufacturers. I thought it would be a great idea, except I was having difficulty imagining WAPF carrying out something like that, given its defensiveness about the FCLO report Kaayla Daniel did, that set off the firestorm.
Then, on reading your comment again, it could be you were making a generic suggestion–wouldn’t it be interesting if everyone stopped taking their CLO supplements for a month or two or three….then we’d likely find, as you say, that some people taking any kind of CLO have allergic reactions or difficulties with Vitamin D supplementation.
I really wasn’t trying to get into the blame game as much as lament the difficulty of carrying out such a study, given the WAPF’s defensiveness and strong-arm tactics against the free dissemination of information. Because I think, with all the reports of health problems with FCLO, we need to move beyond “wouldn’t it be interesting” suggestions to real studies and analysis. Randy Hartnell of Vital Choice Wild Seafood and Organics put it well on the TCP Facebook page today:
“During the nearly 14 years Vital Choice has been in business we have never experienced anything close to the GP controversy. We have had occasional customer complaints about becoming ill after consuming a VC product, which we take seriously, but these have been rare, isolated, and we have never been able to validate that our product was actually the cause. We did once conduct a voluntary recall of salmon lox when a supplier reported potential issues with a lot, but never received any customer complaints.
“There is a great deal about this whole GP mess that is very hard for me to understand. Most difficult is the fact that, despite significant evidence that the product is potentially harmful, both the vendor and WAPF leadership continue to recommend it to a community of followers that includes a lot of children. It is particularly distressing because I know highly experienced lipid scientists who cringe at the thought of consuming this product…especially when there are so many readily available superior alternatives (safer, better-tasting, more nutritious, etc).”
“We have had occasional customer complaints about becoming ill after consuming a VC product, which we take seriously, but these have been rare, isolated, and we have never been able to validate that our product was actually the cause.”
This is basically the same thing that Dave Wetzel is saying about GPP. The question is how does a company go about validating that their products are or aren’t the cause of a particular health complaint? I thought that health complaints had to be documented as facts, whether validated or not?
Judith, I would agree that the body is extremely complex, and it would be much better to take much longer than a month, and explore different options. It would be best to start with an elimination diet and no supplements, and then add stuff on one at a time and see how the body responds, but most people won’t do that. It would probably be even better to start out with a fast for a week to detox and reset and then start the elimination diet. Trying different supplements and foods to see what works, and what doesn’t is time consuming and not very precise. But its something that most of us have done to some extent or another and many of us need to continue to do. I was just recommending something that was accessible for most people. I know there are some people that really believe in FCLO that couldn’t conceive of going without it for 3-6 months to try out various other dietary supplement regimens.
Steve, I agree with you that an extended elimination diet would be a better way for people to figure out what supplements and foods may be helping or hurting them.
But my impression, confirmed by your second post, is that you were trying to keep your original challenge simple — and I respected that goal in my response. What I suggested would add absolutely no time or difficulty to the challenge you originally proposed.
To re-iterate: Rather than telling people to stop taking FCLO for a month and substitute other supplements for it during that time, it would be more logical to tell everyone who takes any kind of CLO to stop taking it for a month, without adding anything new in.
This would be no more lengthy or difficult than your original proposal. And while it still wouldn’t be a rigorous scientific analysis, it would at least be less biased and reduce the number of confounding factors, making the information gained from the experiment more useful for both the individual and the community.
I agree with Judith that setting up a WAPF-centric study and then bemoaning their likely resistance to (in their eyes) being set up is not productive. Whoever wants to try a simple elimination protocol involving just FCLO, or all clo, or all supplements would tell anyone interested in doing it more than he/she/we know now. Stopping FCLO and substituting other clo I agree might tell you something but the risk of confounding factors seems high. The benefits of keeping vitamin D levels at desired levels (40-60 ng/ml is recommended) seems to me are long term and have innumerable impacts (if you don’t), so an elimination protocol may not reveal much in the short term; rather, doing blood level testing through an outfit like grassrootshealth dot org seems most logical and then hope for the best. At least then you’ll know what you are doing with vitamin D which is so critical.
Some of those complaints are plain ludicrous…..but overall to anyone following ray peat this must be a crazy spectacle. People consuming an inheretnly toxic pufa oil, a rotten one at that, and complaining about health issues. Its like swimming in acid and complaining about burns.