The Weston A. Price Foundation’s annual conference in Anaheim got off to a rocky start when Orange County public health officials placed an embargo on an Amish vendor’s raw dairy products.
On the opening day of the four-day conference, agents from the Orange County Health Care Agency placed a sizable quantity of raw milk, cream, yogurt, kefir, and butter into boxes with embargo stickers, which were apparently placed into the kitchen facilities of the Anaheim Marriott Hotel, where the conference is being held.
The Amish farmer vendor was understood to be distributing a variety of food items, like sausage, cheeses, and fermented vegetables, along with raw dairy products, to individuals who joined its private membership organization. I learned about the embargo from multiple sources, none of whom wanted to be identified.
The action was a surprise because WAPF has, in recent years, prohibited the serving of raw dairy products by non-permitted dairies at its annual conferences. So, in states that allow retail distribution of raw milk, like California, a permitted dairy like Organic Pastures Dairy Co. could make raw milk available; Organic Pastures is understood to be selling raw milk at the Anaheim conference, and was apparently unaffected by the public health seizure. But other non-permitted dairies would be prohibited by the WAPF conference, so as to avoid conflicts with hotel contracts and public health regulations.
In states like Illinois or Indiana, where WAPF has held conferences in recent years, vendors were prohibited by the organization from selling any raw dairy products (except cheese aged at least 60 days), to avoid just the kind of scene that unfolded on Friday afternoon. Indeed, raw milk wasn’t even served at meals for those events, for the same reason.
WAPF had instituted the prohibition because its conference is an obvious target of public health and agriculture regulators fearful of raw dairy. Indeed, public health officials are understood to have visited previous WAPF annual conferences in California. But this is the first time they are known to have actually taken a confiscatory action.
It’s not clear in the Anaheim embargo that occurred today what the regulators were objecting to, although they could have cited any number of possible violations, including product mislabeling, or raw milk sale by a non-permitted vendor.
Food sellers who have their food embargoed usually have the right to challenge the seizure, and public health officials usually need to obtain a court order to actually dispose of products. Some Amish and other non-permitted dairies, including the dairy targeted in Anaheim, have established private membership organizations, and required buyers to become dues-paying members before being able to buy. The purpose is to avoid coming into conflict with public health regulators. But clearly, the Orange County officials didn’t accept the private-member status of this farmer.
Wow, I’m really interested to see how this plays out! I’ve got so many questions! Was this product already paid for by the customers that were to receive it? If so, were the orders clearly marked and invoices included, and have customers been notified? Is this coming from an Amish farmer that regularly ships his products to customers? Is FTCLDF getting involved? I’m really curious what kind of private Private Membership Organization is used by this farmer. I did some research about this a few years ago when our Amish farmer was contemplating a switch, and was pretty concerned with one organization I found, and so happy our farmer stayed with the organization he’s part of.
Sally, it’s a private membership food buying club. You have to fill out their membership agreement form, write a check to cover the one-time membership fee of $30, and then mail both of those things to the farm… after which you are then a club member, which means that you can order food items from the farm and have them shipped out-of-state. I know, because I am a member of this particular food buying club.
Call the legal defense fund and get that farmer help. Poor ‘ol Dr. Bryzinski who is selfless and kind is being persecuted for saving cancer victims from sure death. Get the corporations back in the box where they belong and stop putting us in that suffocating illegality called “with in the law”. There is a natural born right to not participate in illegal coercion , like forcing poisonous cancer drugs and cancerous foods on the population. That Amish farmer is a hero, I’m sorry that messed up your conference.
Would love to see the private membership idea challenged in court and see the FDA and “health” officials lose. The right to privately contract is actually IN the Constitution specifically. I hate to see the trouble caused to farmers by this action, but it’s a fight that’s a long time coming.
I’m with you, Sally. I’d like to see the private membership idea get its day in court, and be affirmed. A key is to have it challenged in the most favorable circumstances–at a food club with long-standing members, rather than at something like the WAPF event, which is more transactional and thus possibly less easy to defend.
We have egregious examples of the violation of the constitutional right to contract, most notably minimum wage. Legal action may not be the way to go. It is expensive, time-consuming, and the outcome uncertain. The courts are not above corruption.
Are you sure the farmer was Amish and not some collateral Anabaptist sect? Haven’t been any Amish settlements in Ca. according to Amish info on the net, maybe he came from out of state?.
Yes, this farmer is definitely Amish.
The farm is located in PA, not CA.
Someone here posted this (http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/PRICE.htm) criticism of the WAP/WAPF recommended diet recently. Is this really the best criticism out there? If not, please, share something better.
I want my family to be as healthy as possible and to give others good advice. So I am very keen to hear about where WAPF may have gone astray from WAP’s advice or of good modifications based on valid, new research since then.
However this article is not trustworthy. There are a couple possible gems, but it is full to the brim with logical fallacies and inane arguments. He is clearly ignorant of agronomy and the details of what WAPF recommends and quite quick to toss out WAP’s SCIENCE, based on traditional healthy cultures, on the basis of TRADITION, from the less healthy Chinese culture.
I’m not saying there aren’t useful things in Chinese tradition or that his ying/yang analysis is invalid (I simply don’t know, lets not start that debate), but the value of WAP was his using science to verify and derive value from tradition. Wilson gets it exactly backwards.
There are many things he says that could be right, but I have no idea if they are and its hard to believe what he says when he is so wrong in the areas I know more about and his basing many arguments on false logic and ignorance.
@ Pete: I agree. Here’s what I had to say about it when I posted it over at my forum last night: http://thepolkadotapron.freeforums.org/another-view-on-weston-price-s-research-t7060.html
And that doesn’t even begin to go into all of my reasons . . . 8)
I am at the conference and will report any news I hear. I went to buy cheese from Miller’s Organic Farm yesterday afternoon and found out it had been confiscated. The young Amish man did not know if they will get their products back!
Thank you, Lynn. That would be much appreciated.
My guess would be that is has more to do with the interstate ban on raw dairy shipment than a challenge on private membership. Shipping raw milk, cream and butter for sale across state lines is a big no-no, and I don’t know if the fact that customers are part of a private membership cooperative makes any difference on that.
Since 2011 the CDFA has respected the private ownership status of herdshares, viewing them as exempt from licensing, as long as they authentically reflect private ownership. But I’m pretty sure if a herdshare started serving co-owners who were not local and shipping them milk over state lines, that would quickly change.
On a practical note, I’m wondering why WAPF was supporting the shipment of raw dairy across the country in the first place, when they have raw milk, butter and cheese right here in CA, and one of the primary raw dairy producers in the nation is attending and speaking at their conference? Raw milk is a very delicate food that (in my opinion) is best distributed as locally as possible. Cheese and butter are much more shelf stable, but putting raw milk on a truck in Pennsylvania (or wherever) and driving it days to CA sounds problematic. I know people do it, but fresh is better, in my very humble opinion.
I agree with your practical concern, Shawna, and not just on maintaining product integrity. I think it was reckless of WAPF to encourage a farmer who lacked necessary permits/licenses to sell raw dairy in such a public setting, a hotel/convention setting, where WAPF has previously been under scrutiny. To me, it was reckless to expose the farmer to needless legal and regulatory repercussions (and I say that completely apart from criticism I’ve had for WAPF over the fermented cod liver oil controversy).
Maybe before criticizing you should gather the facts, David. I know that is not in vogue these days.
As a journalist, that is what I would have expected you to do instead of speculating. Because the facts don’t support your assertion that WAPF encouraged (the farmer) at all. (The farmer) is well known for pushing the limits.
I think I said in the comment that I was expressing my opinion.
WAPF has the final say about who exhibits at its conferences. It got rid of Ron Schmid as a vendor for this conference in August, when it judged him to be unacceptable (for “criticizing” another vendor). WAPF could have prohibited Amos from exhibiting if it wanted. Or it could have told him what his limitations were in exhibiting. I’ve seen him at shows for WAPF as well as other organizations where he didn’t have most raw dairy products (notably milk and cream).
“I think it was reckless of WAPF to encourage a farmer who lacked necessary permits/licenses to sell raw dairy in such a public setting, a hotel/convention setting, where WAPF has previously been under scrutiny.”
Really, this is an opinion? You clearly imply that WAPF intentionally “encouraged a farmer” to do something, with zero evidence, actually with all evidence pointing to the contrary.
It is sad to see what your blog has devolved into, especially for one who purports himself to be a reporter.
Let me put it this way, John. By failing to discourage a vendor, you may be encouraging the vendor. I gave you a notable example of how WAPF quickly stepped in and banned a vendor (Ron Schmid of DrRons) whom Sally Fallon Morell claimed violated WAPF vendor rules. I know of at least one other similar situation in which the vendor was threatened with eviction if it didn’t discontinue immediately distributing certain material, but don’t want to violate confidentiality. Sally suggested in both those situations how important it is to enforce consistent WAPF policy on vendors. And by the way, since when do you speak for WAPF?
David, I never said I speak for WAPF. Again, it seems you consistently misrepresent what other people say, so that you can continue pushing your agenda. I don’t represent WAPF, I just happen to be here and to know a lot of what is going on. Aka, I know the actual facts. You, on the other hand, are making all sorts of biased assumptions and wild claims about a situation it is clear you have done very little actual investigation into.
Per your claim about me throwing the farmer under the bus, you really need to grow up at this point. Your claim about a new day for this blog rings rather hollow given as soon as I point out you are factually wrong on a issue, you move to instant character attacks shows or attempts at guilt by association… those who have significant concerns on a number of levels are right to have such concerns.
I know when we were exhibiting, we had to send a list of products that we wanted to bring along with a complete ingredient listing that had to be approved by Sally personally. We weren’t allowed to bring our multivitamins. We weren’t allowed to bring anything with D2 in it. I would imagine that we also wouldn’t have allowed to bring any product that was illegal to transport across state lines. Knowing this, I too find it strange that these products would have been allowed to be brought and displayed unless it was Sally’s desire that it happen – perhaps to create an incident that would result in legal action where a challenge to interstate transport of raw dairy could take place. John, since you’re close to this, can you shed any light on it? Was the vendor specifically asked to bring the product? Asked not to bring the product but did anyways? Just brought the product on their own volition? Was this to create a situation for FTCLDF to step in? Is something else going on?
Steve, if you want to talk to me, let’s connect via FB or some other medium. I know answers to all the above, but I have neither time nor desire in this forum to discuss it and merely get assailed with ten thousand more questions/comments and attacks.
Intentional or not, it is going to make people circle the wagons in this moment during which WAPF is coming under such scrutiny.
JohnM
Please protect the Amish farmer in question, and remove the first name from your posting in two instances.
So far we’ve been referring to him as the “Amish farmer”. Good to continue to do so.
I called him to see how he was doing… As always he was quick to find the positive in the situation “It was a hard day, but it could have been worse.”
Cathy, I’d never heard of this farmer but found him in about 30 seconds with the help of google and this post. If anonymity is important to him, that might be something to note.
Shawna
I saw David exercise caution and didn’t name names, and I really appreciated that he did that. I would err on the side of caution, but that’s me.
No need to provide fuel for the regulators fire.
We thought of something that could help him recover his losses from the seizure.
If you want to private message me, I’d be happy to give you the farmer’s phone so you can call to order your holiday turkey.
https://www.facebook.com/cathy.raymond
Buy a soy-free pastured turkeys whole or smoked, fresh or frozen and if you mention the Paleo-Primal-Price Foundation conference you’ll get a free quart of broth to make yummy gravy.
‘excise the farmer’s name from view on this forum’ ?! you people slay me. … ( from the little I know ) da farmer came across the continent to present his wares at Ground Zero in the Campaign for REAL MILK, and you want to hide his identity?!!! the kindest way to put it, is : “you’re un-clear on the concept”. This ‘war” * is by no means over ; under-estimating the vicious determination of the opponents, is a major mistake.
… * “war” is what those who’ve been treated to the tender mercies of the govt. say, when they finally ‘get it’
As far as I know, there is only one such Amish farmer who exhibits at WAPF conferences, and his private membership club is advertised in the back of every issue of Wise Traditions. It isn’t exactly a secret. I knew immediately who David was referring to in this article upon reading it, but even if I didn’t know it would only take a matter of seconds for me to look up “Amish farmer WAPF” to figure it out.
John, you sure are quick to throw the farmer under the bus. Very strange, considering the organization you represent.
David, for a “new day on your blog” you are very quick to engage in all sorts of the same behaviors you said were no longer permitted. If you want to edit the farmer’s name out of my comments, feel free, but in this instance, who the farmer is goes a long way to explaining the situation at hand. For those who know who he is, they would have zero surprise that regardless of what vendors were instructed to do by WAPF, he pushed those limits or didn’t follow them, or at the very least his helpers did or his crew made a mistake.
It is sad to see you double and triple down when you are wrong.
I think maybe some people are unclear about typical forum rules, their enforcement, and what constitutes a personal attack, hateful statements, and the like. Here are the new, very simple rules:
•No personal attacks, even if you violently disagree with others, think they are idiots, or worse. No personal attacks. It’s possible to disagree respectfully.
•No hate speech, which are comments that attack a person based on their race, gender, religion, and other such factors.
•No trolling, in other words, posting inflammatory or off-topic messages, and doing it repetitively to distract community members and anger and upset them.
A personal attack is an attack on a person. For instance: “You’re such an idiot” or “I would expect something like that from somebody as stupid as you” or even, “You should follow all of the rest of the lemmings on their next migration since you’re such a follower – right off of a cliff. The world would be a better place without you.” A non personal attack could be “Where did you ever get such an idiotic idea?” or “The stupidity of that statement has me completely dumbfounded.” Attacking or belittling an ARGUMENT or STATEMENT is far different than attacking the PERSON behind the statement. Of course there is some grey area as to what is considered an inflammatory comment and what is not, as we each have different triggers and could get inflamed by different things.
I would consider many of David’s comments crossing the line of personal attacks or veiled personal attacs, since they are unfounded malicious accusations against people or organizations (which are made up of people), or common argumentative tactics, like guilt by association, straw man, etc. Especially that he is so quick to make assertions without any actual evidence or trying to gather the full story or both sides. But that is why I left this blog many months ago and have for the most part not came back, since the above has became the norm/rule, not the exception though I had hoped otherwise.
I will take responsibility for having taken your “bait,” John, when you questioned (yet again) my professionalism. I responded with an attack on you, and I regret that, because I was violating the policy I instituted. I figured that if I was the one being attacked, I could handle that, and I certainly can. But Steve Tellent is correct, the policy was violated, and I have been setting a poor example.
I’ll just take you, and others following this situation, back to the statement that I believe precipitated all this. I said in the post, “The action was a surprise because WAPF has, in recent years, prohibited the serving of raw dairy products by non-permitted dairies at its annual conferences.” I implied, but probably should have been more explicit, that the action was “a surprise to me”. In other words, I was the one who was surprised because of what I had seen with vendors at previous WAPF events. That’s all. It appeared different to me than what I was accustomed to.
As Cathy correctly infers, I intentionally avoided naming names, or of running through the actual course of events to identify exactly who did what to whom and when. As Mark McAfee points out, those particulars can be important to the people involved, especially the farmers, and I didn’t want to try to develop a record here.
@David
From what I understand, this is not the first time that (the farmer) has had a variety of his raw cheeses for sale at the WAPF conferences. Our local WAPF CL posted photos that she took from the last two WAPF conferences that she attended (prior to the most recent one in Anaheim) wherein you can see all the raw cheeses on display at Amos’s exhibit.
Raw cheeses that are aged 60 days or more are perfectly legal, under FDA regulations, anywhere in the U.S. I’ve seen Amish farmers at events like WAPF’s, with raw cheeses as the only dairy they sell, because of legal and regulatory restrictions on the other raw dairy products.
I’m pretty sure that his raw cheeses are not aged. I buy them frequently myself.
They are and were aged. The only problem with the cheeses were that they were not labeled. He chose to bring raw milk, which was not expected. WAPF certainly did not encourage him to do so and, in fact, were a bit surprised. But is it any more surprising that the health department was tipped off to this fact from…
See my comment with the exhibitor guidelines allowing raw cheese, pasted here for convenience.
https://www.ptfassociates.com/secure/wisetraditions/2015foodexhibitordonorguidelines.pdf
BTW, you forgot to edit out the second instance where I mentioned the farmers name at the end of my comment directly above this one. I would go ahead and edit it out myself if I could figure out how to get comment editing capabilities on this blog (already tried to no avail).
” I’m wondering why WAPF was supporting the shipment of raw dairy across the country in the first place, when they have raw milk, butter and cheese right here in CA, and one of the primary raw dairy producers in the nation is attending and speaking at their conference? ”
Do you have evidence to support that WAPF was doing the above? Because I am here, and as far as I know/understand, all the exhibitors know that doing the above is a no-no. WAPF can’t control that some decide to press the limits or make mistakes.
Once again, John, Sally Fallon Morell is well known for running a very tight ship for exhibitors. The ones that fail to do what she orders are out.
Fact Checking – I’m was a little concerned for the FTCLDF when I saw this on FB and then heard about the problems in the exhibit hall and with the food donations.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10206668041233610&set=a.2970520535976.137641.1050629301&type=3&theater
Perhaps Melissa Henig was confused about the donor of the raw cream in her FB and Instagram message?
“This is a huge bowl of raw cream from my favorite Amish farmer at the @farmtoconsumer legal defense fund dinner in #Anaheim #wapf #westonaprice #wapf2015 #rawcream #rawdairy”
If Organic Pastures donated the cream instead, you may want to ask Melissa to correct her statement, since I see only this response:
John Moody “Thanks for coming Melissa Henig, hope everyone had an enjoyable, encouraging, and entertaining time!”
All cream was donated by OP, and we were glad to have it. Amos and OP donated cheese, but obviously we were unable to use Amos’-oops!- I mean the Amish’ cheese. (I think it rather silly to hide the name since the person to whom it belongs is not hiding).
Well, I’m quite unhappy with the state of WAPF, David, but i’ve done an order with just that farmer and had him deliver to a WAPF conference here in CA, all without any involvement of WAPF officialdom. Though, I must say, we didn’t use the hotel’s refrigerator. We divided up in the parking lot and went on our way.
I agree that a venue could have inadvertently expose da farmer to legal repercussion if they don’t know the rules, or if they did know but ignored them. That said, it is ultimately the farmer who is responsible for knowing the laws, and the farmer who will suffer the loss of confiscated food.
On the other hand, there is a time to push on and test regulations. And perhaps that was the intention all along here. If I were a farmer who wanted to test the reaches of the interstate raw milk ban, I imagine that delivering product to the highly publicized, yearly WAPF conference could be a good place to do that. It is certainly very visible, and if you are asking the question, “will the FDA enforce this?” that is a good way to get an answer. So we really should not be surprised at the action, as this is a pretty blatant violation of a well-known policy. I just hope that the farmer went into this with her eyes wide open, knowing what could happen.
da farmer….lol. Oh to be able to correct comments…but then we might lose the humor.
That’s just the lack of intelligence of Southern California Officials. I wonder if they did the same thing to this farmer as what Los Angeles county did to Rawsome Foods. LA brought in the swat team, FBI, bureau of tobacco and firearms, district attorney, police all carrying guns. This was a club too. Obviously being healthy is a fight. I was wondering why they weren’t doing the same thing to the items on the grocery shelf that don’t have any food products in them but instead have harmful chemicals. Orange County attacked Alta Dena dairy back in 1986 so they are very anti health from the looks of it. Clearly Orange County has an agenda against healthy food.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/03/rawsome-raid-_n_917540.html Info on Rawsome raid which is a CA dairy farmer. Alta Dena was a dairy farm that sold raw dairy products, No state lines crossed.
I am at the #wapfcon and saw the products they were selling before OC came in and confiscated.
I would like to say “thank you” to those brave men and women who have kept me safe from organic cheese and butter.
It’s good work you people do, keeping this dairy contraband from a large group of people who have made the decision to feed themselves in a more healthy way than the government allows. The WAPF convention is now safe.
Please go have a donut…. My treat.
Well, WAPF could be clearer in their communications in regards to this, I know it’s hard, like herding cats. Everyone at the conference wants raw dairy, and raw dairy can only be served in states where it’s legal.
When I had the job of getting all the farm foods (including dairy) products into the conference, I would go to great lengths to get vat pasteurized products…farmers would even pasteurize their raw milk and cream for us. We hated to ask them to do it, but it was the law, I also worked for FTCLDF so I saw what happened if something went amiss.
But this is confusing thing – on one hand WAPF communicates
https://www.ptfassociates.com/secure/wisetraditions/2015foodexhibitordonorguidelines.pdf
NOT Allowed for Sale at Exhibits or as Food Donations
Raw dairy – butter, cream, kefir, and milk, colostrum and/or raw yogurt
and on the other hand, they give Organic Pastures a booth to do just that – sell and donate raw dairy, which is of course legal in California.
WAPF needed to be clearer that only raw dairy, legal for sale in California, would be allowed to be sold or donated.
WAPF used to run that document by FTCLDF in the old days, not sure what’s happening now, since I no longer work for either. Just glad I’m not in the middle of it.
Dear friends, remember this …. Every single word,comment,name,business sales admission etc….is admissible in court by any local,state or federal agency. You are not helping your Ohio Amish Farmer. You have led him off to all sorts of problems. How do I know? It happened to me in 2010 with the fda in a federal lawsuit. All of my posts here were submitted as evidence and the judge had no problem with that.
That’s why some times I speak to the fda through comments here They read every word
I was the one that tried my best to warn the farmer. I knew we were going to be visited by health department officials at mid morning. I shared my deep concerns with Paul Frank (conference manager) who then told (the farmer’s) team to immediately stop sales…they did not. Instead they took the legal advice from unnamed people present and kept on selling with a long line. The argument being ” it is a food club and private sale” Then the very predicable happened. They were shut down because they had no permit…no insurance, no labels ( including on their cheese ). They were selling to anyone with cash!! It was sad on many levels. Bad initial judgement to allow (the farmer) to sell at an authorized table, failure to follow very sage advice ( literally my best attempt to warn ). And lastly….the provision of activist legal advice in a state that enforces its laws with vigor. That’s the truth and that is exactly what happened. I was there. Sadly. An entire huge cheese cake made from (the farmer’s) raw dairy was thrown in a dumpster by the officials.
Dumpster divers had a fantastic desert that evening for sure. The facts point blame enough for everyone to share.
In other places in other states….there is a place for activism and challenging of the laws. If activism was the goal then why was this done without the media present and chanting freedom fighters with a story to tell!! When Liz and many others challenged the FDA years ago and rallied in from of the FDA in Maryland that was activism with a strategy and clear objective In CA we have worked damn hard for years and years to make raw milk safe and available. This WAP raw milk seizure event flew in the face of all of our very hard work. It also really pissed off the hotel.
It is time to take a breath and really look at what we are stating in ” forever print “…the FDA can make their case just by copying this commentary on this blog. David kept it generic….you all made it personal and filled in every little fact etc….including admission of public commerce sale!!
I am actually saddened by these comments on many levels and the strategic failure to pick the right battles at the right place and time.
The only reason that I felt comfortable stating details here is because, like I said, it’s not a secret. Everything that I mentioned in my posts here is already stated in print elsewhere on the internet, and has been for quite some time now. Not to mention that the above article makes it obvious who the farmer in question is, even without stating the name.
@David – Feel free to delete any of my comments here that contain details about the farmer if you like. Again, I have no way to edit or delete them myself.
@Mark – I didn’t see anyone say anything about “public commerce sale” from this farm. On the contrary, you have to be a private club member in order to purchase any of their products. This farmer doesn’t make any public sales at all.
let’s have a little transparency, please
…. how long ago did da farmer set out from Ohio in his horse-drawn Conestoga wagon? how did he keep the raw milk products below 4 degrees C, all that way, so as to meet RAWMI standards? “Amish”, eh? does he have a copyright on that word as his brand-name?
as they say in the ad biz. = “the more you tell, the more you sell”
Amish business owners/farmers are allowed in all but the most strict of communities to use all modern conveniences and technologies for *their business* just not for their personal use. They are also allowed to hire “english” to drive them in vehicles that they do not own themselves. The fact that an Amish Farmer exhibited in a location out of the area of where a horse and cart could get him or that his products were shipped using modern methods does not negate the fact that he is still Amish and is still very likely in compliance with all the codes and restrictions of his particular community. There is a wide variance of “normal” amongst Amish communities with individual ones making their own rules that their members must abide by.
The allowance for businesses and farms to use all manner of modern things eschewed by them in their personal lives is a common policy.
well, good luck with having one foot in the world, and the other planted in a human tradition which says it holds the whole Word of God ( the Christian Bible) as its standard of faith & morals … except for the parts we – ie the ruling council /elders – don’t like, THIS particular generation.
… One of the main themes of the religion which God Almighty gave to Moses at Mount Sinai, was and continues to be : separation from the world. Once the hedge of protection is down, it’s only a matter of time ’til the community which HAD cleaved to that standard, is thoroughly corrupt. Compare the Constitution of the Republic of the united States of America, with what goes on here today. The Amish of a hundred years ago, would be aghast at what their descendants accept.
… Using Amish-ness as a marketing myth, is no different than Green Pastures, spinning the yarn about its butter oil being generated from the pristine prairies of mid-America, meanwhile … – from what little we’re told … the base stock for its production, was outsourced
… My ( very mild and sympathetic) criticism is not of da farmer, personally, because I don’t know him. But I do know a bit about human nature. Compromise with the Babylonian system is a one-way street = trending to less and less rigor abiding-by the law of God. Point being : in this fallen world, one must find his comfort zone. If da farmer can live with himself, fine. But, really, he’s just an entrepreneur with a peculiar costume which plays well in the modern marketplace
Gordon, I don’t know why you feel compelled to attack this mans integrity (and, yes, that’s exactly what you are doing) when you yourself admit that you don’t know anything about him. His own religious beliefs in living a humble life will not allow for him to defend himself and the man has not a bad word to say about anyone. It’s a good thing that he does what he does otherwise many people would not have access to the foods that he provides.
Amanda … I’m criticizing da Farmer because he’s operating in what is often called “the real world”. Meanwhile, like so many relgious types, he wants “half a pound of God” … just enough to solve his own problems, but fleeing the field … hiding out in his cosssetted compound … instead of contending for the faith in the public realm. Such people are simpletons … ready to take what suits their personal desires, yet refusing to grow up to their civic responsibilities. The Amish are just a tiny example of the larger problem, why Ham-merica is in the disgraceful condition it’s in … There is nothing new under the sun ; our problems today are same as those of our ancestors, the Ancient Israelites. Now, as then, the pulpit parrots who infest the high places of brand-name Christianity, are race traitors. He is just a poor sap who – I’m sure – in all sincerity believes he can have it both ways : make a profit from outsiders with his trademark hat and Beard, then jet on back to his religious ghetto, where they can all be sanctimonious giggling about what a hell-of-a-smart-guy he is fleecing “the English”. And if you think that’s harsh language … go read the history of the Amish.
I have no idea what you are babbling on about at this point, Gordon. What civic duty are you referring to? Why do you think that his customers are being fleeced? Is it just the Amish, in general, that you don’t like? Have you just been waiting to go off on a rant about Amish people, and this seemed like a good chance to get it all out of your system? lol 🙂
Did you really just say that Amish people are what’s wrong with America? You can’t be serious.
Have you ever been to America?
. For the hard-of-thinking in the crowd : the gist of my irritation with da Farmer, is : the Amish are one tiny example of how religious groups splinter off and “write their own rules”, only to turn into another cult. … winding up the very opposite of what their founders set out to do. The US of A was founded by Christians : today it’s the enforcer for the Beast system = the reins of America’s armed forces are held by anti-christians.
… the Campaign for REAL MILK is one battlefront in what is, ultimately, a religious war : those who harken to the law of the God of Israel versus entrained in the Babylonian system. For some guy to show up in Annaheim, set up shop, disregard the counsel of those who know better, …. drafting-along in the wake of people who’ve broken the trail for him, educating the public what “local” means … whilst cashing-in on the marketing cachet of the buzzword “local”, 1500 miles from Amish-ville, irks me no end. And you want me to sympathize with him, after his stupid self-ish-ness embarrasses the Campaign for REAL MILK?!
…Sorry Amanda, but with my limited command of the English language, I cannot make it much simpler than that. Yes, indeed, I have been to the States, many times. I love the Republic = for what it used to stand for.
let me get this perfectly clear : so the modern Amish practice a religion in which someone – in his private capacity – is a member of the closed community, meanwhile, he has another, distinctly separate personality at law, his … “strawman”? … for when he interacts with the World outside Amish territory? Does he put on a different hat, that day, telling all-concerned he’s operating in his commercial capacity?
….I most strongly recommend anyone caught up in that nonsense talk former “deTaxers”. More than a few of them are sitting in prison after attempting to make that argument, before the courts of “The English”. Confer with the Bible : “a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways”
… so am I to infer that da Farmer in question has no problem trafficking in notes of the Federal Reserve System … predicated as they are, in usury? Usury being a capital offence, in that antique Bible on the pulpit within the Amish meeting house. Does da good Amish-man take credit cards? Does he have an account with one of the institutions licenced by the Babylonian system?
… “making their own rules”? … OK, let’s start with pork = categorically outlawed by the food law of the God of Israel … but – correct me if I’m wrong – the Amish have no problem with merchandising swine’s flesh
…. the Weston A Price foundation could go a long way to redeeming its reputation by going back in the archives of medicine, then publishing the extensive research done after the First World War, proving that all kinds of disease conditions are visited on white people when we consume pigmeat.
…. my main kvetch : regardless of the quality of the product he’s selling … trading on his Amish-ness is a gimmick.
addendum : hey!, if it works for da Farmer = ie that a few thousand $s of merchandise seized by the food police, is just a tax write-off for his enterprise = then he’s free to mind his business, and I’ll mind mine. But spare us the plaintive appeal to conscience … I’m not a bit sympathetic with him for getting his sideburn whiskers caught in the regulatory wringer,
He is Amish and furthermore he is a very decent and honest man.
Mark I do appreciate your warning and am a little frustrated at times with a cavalier, or renegade attitude towards these things. Said farmer knew it was a risk to bring in milk, he was not encouraged to do so. I understand that there is much at stake with the sale of raw milk in CA and that you have really been through the wringer with that.
It was no real surprise for the health department to come and check up on this since, after all, we are WAPF, raw milk crusaders! Some of what followed really made me mad as it is not fair to jeopardize others’ business (including the hotel, who could have been fined hundreds of thousands for discovery of the movement of contraband!).
But it’s all behind us now, and a few have just had to soak up the loss, which no doubt is fairly easy considering the scope and depth of their business!
Maureen, are you suggesting that the farmer was the only one guilty of cavalier behavior? What about Sally Fallon Morell’s reputation…“for running a very tight ship for exhibitors”? As I understand it the farmer is not the one guilty of mixing the butters and if we are to believe what Mark has told us in past comments about butter being a non-issue with respect to food born illness then the mixing of the two is moot.
We should be thankful for the farmers gumption to challenge the status quo.
Amanda…prices were hand written and placed on each product. Non of them had labels. Now….become an inspector for a moment. Sales were being provided to everyone standing in line. Inspectors needed to see a permit. None existed because these products had come from Ohio. After further inquiry, It was discovered that (the farmer) ships all over the place and considers being intercepted and losing a few loads to be just a cost of operation. He said he is operating under gods law.
I get all that.
The county inspector and the hotel didn’t.
Mark — Is (the farmer) getting his product from Ohio? That’s interesting especially in light of your announcement tomorrow that you expect to be able to ship butter interstate in the next 18 months. (That farmer) would be your main competition in the interstate outsourced butter market but he might be too busy with inspectors at that point.
Come to think of it, Sally Fallon’s farm might be able to jump into the east coast and midwest market, you in the west and south.
Not sure if you are joking…..but this farmer has no interest in competing with OPDC, absolutely none. Completely different business approaches.
Mark: The cheese I bought was clearly labeled in the same way it has been at every other conference at which I’ve bought it.
So . . . two people who have commented here were there in person and saw two different labeling methods offered by this Amish farmer? One person says no labels, another says same clear label as always. Which?
What is wrong with hand-written price markers?
D, Smith: I think that both Mark and I are correct. I love the cave-aged sheep cheese, and that is what I bought (also bought it in Atlanta and Indianapolis). It appeared that all the cheeses were labeled as to type, price per pound, and price. I didn’t look closely at the milk, kefir, and yogurt, but I think Mark is correct that they had hand-written labels.
@ Gary: Cave-aged sheep cheese – delicious! I have no problem with hand-written price markers or labels but Mark made it sound as though because they weren’t printed labels it wasn’t up to snuff or something. Having a hand-written label is not the same thing as having NO label. He said in his post above: “prices were hand written and placed on each product. Non of them had labels.”
We buy things occasionally from a local Hutterite farm and all of their stuff is labeled with hand-written stickers for everything. It doesn’t mean their products aren’t quality.
I’ve bought all kinds of FDA approved garbage (not necessarily just food) over the years and having a printed label didn’t make it any better, that’s for sure!
Thanks for the updates you’ve provided. Interesting!
“…a permitted dairy like Organic Pastures Dairy Co.”
Or Claravale Farms. A much better milk, and a much smaller dairy not run by a couple of grandiose hedge fund managers who want to control the whole world of real milk.
I might as well jump in here with my impressions of Wise Traditions XVI: At the benefit dinner I had the distinct pleasure of meeting Judith McGeary, one old friend, and several new ones, including Will Winter. A small but congenial crowd. Rather than a sit down dinner, as in years past, it was a buffet. Luscious Amish cheeses and fig jam. The holistic management day, with Alan Savory, Chris Kerston, and Spencer Smith was outstanding, as much a way of looking at the natural world, and living life, as it is a way of managing land for regenerating soil. It will certainly help me to better manage my garden to build soil and soil health, even without critters. Alan Savory is an extraordinary human being. The insights he gained from acute observation and deep thinking are profoundly transformative. At lunch my table-mate and I spoke of cod liver oil. He is no longer taking it ,either, and we agreed that fish oils in general are problematic. Only bad news was that the food Nazi’s raided the Amish table and confiscated the dairy. Fortunately, I had already made my cheese purchase. They had a wonderful manifesto we all signed in order to join the buying club. Saturday was great fun, beginning with John Moody on missing nutrients, then Will Winter on putting them back in, and finally, Mark Baker on making biochar and putting it on the soil, either mixed with compost, or through the guts of his critters (interesting story about how he discovered the value of them processing it). Sunday was my favorite, Stephanie Seneff, and she was outstanding as usual, first with folic acid fortification (bad idea, especially in conjunction with iron, which it is, by law), and second, about the importance of cholesterol sulfate in the flow of blood from the arteries to the veins and capillaries, and how statins make people grow older faster. The majority of the new friends I made are new members and don’t know much about the controversies which have animated this blog, though they all seem to know that there are questions about cod liver oil. I didn’t say much to them about it, because it is not my place or normal practice. I really didn’t pay much attention, but it seemed to me, from passing by countless times, that there wasn’t a lot of traffic at the GPP table. Lots of new sponsors and vendors, most of them supplement companies (“product of Brazil”). One of them got up during the question period and made a sales pitch!
@ Gary: I was under the assumption that WAPF discouraged the use of supplements, but now they’re ok with promoting them? What sort of supplements did you see, Gary?
I noticed in the “guidelines pdf” posted here earlier by Cathy Raymond that fish liver oils were the only “supplement” mentioned. On the side of the list where it shows the non-approved guidelines for fish oil, it said “Cod liver oil and fish oil with low levels of vitamin A and/or low levels of vitamin D.” Really? I thought most people were complaining because their Vit D levels became low while on FCLO, so people were suspicious of the Vitamin D content in that product, yet WAPF is promoting “high vitamin CLO and butter oil”. Does WAPF know how much vit A or vit D is in FCLO or how can they make guideline recommendations? If they know, why isn’t it listed on the bottle, or should I say why doesn’t Wetzel list Vit D on his label?
There’s more than just a double standard going on in the area of fish liver oils, it would appear.
D Smith: I’m not really certain what types of supplements were being sold (I didn’t pay attention because I don’t take any myself), but the guy who made the sales pitch was selling sulfur, and in our bags was a large tub of some sort of stuff made in Brazil. I tossed it. It just seemed that there were as many or more vendors as I’ve ever seen at a WT conference, and most of the new ones appeared to be supplement companies. My own considered opinion is that sometimes supplements have value for some people (and of course the placebo effect may be the reason much of the time), but most of the time for most people they are a waste of money. There is evidence now that even taking a multivitamin routinely can have deleterious effects. There were one or two new beef vendors of whom I approved, and a new olive oil company of whom I was a bit skeptical because they source their oils “from Around the World,” and their olive and coconut oils “have been approved under the high standards of Weston A. Price foundation.” I simply don’t trust any European olive oil. Too much of it is adulterated, and it is difficult to detect this. The olive oil vendor in Atlanta sourced form a single orchard in Greece, bought the whole crop, and it was very tasty. I spoke with Joan Grinzi at the PPNF table. She gave me a copy of the summer journal, which had a very interesting article about the history of cod liver oil. I don’t know if non-members can access this (I intend to rejoin when I have some extra doubloons), but it’s well worth the read.
@ Gary: Thanks for the update and I’m with you on the olive oil. I’ve gotten so discouraged about using it that I don’t even try to find a good one around here anymore. It’s pretty much the same story with almost all “oils”.
I wonder if the article you referred to (from the summer journal of PPNF) is the same one that Dr. Daniel’ was offering at her blog site as a free download? Don’t know if that’s still available at her site or not but people could check and see if they’re really interested in reading it.
Again, thanks for the updates.
Gary, thanks for providing this. I was reminded by your description of all the good times I’ve had at WAPF conferences.
I was told that Sally Fallon Morell made a lengthy presentation about cod liver oil, and reported on some extensive testing WAPF had done, not only of fermented cod liver oil, but regular cod liver oils, and other oils. From what I understood, WAPF found wide discrepancies in vitamin content of oils. It also concluded that, on one marker, FCLO was the least rancid (compared with regular cod liver oils). She warned of the potential dangers of FCLO/CLO, but also argued for their nutritional benefits. Once again, I am summarizing from the impressions/accounts of several other attendees. If anyone has more detail, let us know.
On the regulator seizure of raw dairy, I was told that that embargo was lifted or forgotten the next day, and the farmer was able to take possession of the food. And I heard similar tales of light traffic at the Green Pasture exhibit.
@ David: Did the testing of the CLO and “other oils” encompass other companies as well, or was this strictly testing of Green Pastures fish oil products?
I wasn’t at the conference this year but asked on the chapter leader list* if anyone who attended could sum up the CLO presentation for me.
[*I’m not a chapter leader but I used to maintain westonaprice.org and still maintain realmilk.com and help out with other projects (freelance), so I’ve been on the CL email list for a long time; don’t often post or even keep up with reading it that well, but sometimes I scan for questions people have about the website and answer them if I can.]
Sally replied that she’d be posting her PPT soon (I read that to mean, to the WAPF site, not just the CL list, but haven’t seen it on either yet), but that the quick takeaways were:
Vitamins: Two labs showed FCLO to be very high in A and D, considerably higher than some of the other brands tested, but that Rosita was almost as high in D.
Rancidity: No rancidity in FCLO, markers for rancidity in all other brands tested although results were hard to interpret for Nutra-Pro and Rosita so she’s getting additional help to understand what “the graphs” mean.
Trans fats: Small amounts of trans fats found in all brands of CLO tested. “They are created by the bacteria and fungi the fish eat just like you find small amounts of trans fats in animal fats, created by the gut flora.” (I don’t know if the labs told her that, or where that idea came from.)
(I don’t know how many brands WAPF had tested although in Sally’s quick summary GP, Nutra-Pro and Rosita were mentioned, so at least those three.)
Since one of the biggest conclusions in Kaayla’s report was extreme rancidity in the FCLO, I guess when the PPT is posted various folks here and on other blogs can start analyzing the differences between the lab results Kaayla ordered and those WAPF ordered…the lipid science is beyond me..there’s no way I could read Kaayla’s and Sally’s reports and figure out whose labs use the “right” tests and whose interpretation of results is right, or if “right” is somewhere in the middle (whatever that would be). I don’t know if learning which labs Kaayla used will be necessary to do this and if she is collecting funds to get the kind of unrestricted report where she could name them?
I’ve been following this issue in several places and somewhere, but I can’t find where now, I remember reading someone suggesting potential intolerance of FCLO (or maybe any CLO) to the MTHFR mutation or something (which I just found out I have so I’m very interested). Chris Masterjohn in the comments to his blog post suggested the reactions could be from amine intolerance…I wondered if anyone knows of anyone else exploring that line of thinking more in depth? Could some people have big problems like Ron and Cathy had because of genetic variations, while it’s helpful for others?
Hi Jill,
I don’t believe anybody ever contended that the FCLO was without benefit. Whatever intact nutrients are to be found in the oil the body would definitely use, and especially in cases where the body was experiencing a deficiency of one of those nutrients, great benefit could be found. I would imagine that there are still some trace water soluble vitamins and minerals in liver oils, even with centrifuging. So in that sense, it is like a multivitamin. I think the issue is that FCLO has been touted as the greatest superfood, and that it might be damaging at the same time it is helping, to greater or lesser degrees depending upon individuals, usage, and whatnot. I think many believed that this was the safest and most natural way to get these things and now that is called into question. Regardless of WHY it is happening, the low level inflammation that a growing number are reporting is especially concerning. That can do all sorts of damage, especially over time. As most of us know, it is inflammation of the bowel that causes or negatively contributes to things like IBS, Crohn’s, gluten intolerance, Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis, Autism, etc. Some human testing needs to be done (willing participants of course) like seeing what happens to the inflammation levels 6 weeks later of people that haven’t been on it that start using it, and faithful users that cease. So really the question is, benefit vs cost, and can we get the same results without the negative effects doing something else?
@ Jill: Thanks for the updated information regarding FLCO and the testing. Now people will just have to make up their own minds, I guess. I never used the FCLO so it’s sort of a non-issue with me, but it will be interesting to see what people do with the info, and see if other “new” details emerge in the coming weeks.
David: Thanks. I know nothing about the CLO presentation, as I avoided all sessions conducted by Los Tres Enemigos. However, I now think that no one should be taking CLO routinely except under professional supervision. I’m skeptical of both the food and healing branches of the WAPF, but the farming part is still doing good, powerful work. I stuck with that, and good science. The drive to and from was horrendous, but the sessions and the people, many of them new to the WAPF, were wonderful. So glad to hear that the dairy got sprung from jail.
I am struck by the imaginative conclusions being reached in the vacuum of the facts. The quarantine on the seized Miller raw dairy products was not lifted….it was criminally broken. Consumers or others simply broke the law and took the embargoed product out of the designated place and sold it. I heard glorious victorious celebration all about this act. Miller consumers sitting on the floor with their contraband asking others if they wanted some….because “they liberated it”….the act of breaking embargo notices….becomes the biggest crime and compounds the initial basic violations. It is almost as if WAP attracts borderline personalities that get a rush out of criminal activity or pushing the limits….or dangerous behaviors.
This is not strategic activism….this is not public protest. No media was called…no story was told to help to lift the unjust laws that prohibit interstate commerce of raw milk…this was simply bad judgement and an extension of Millers national sales program. When OPDC products are mixed with Millers products and served to unknowing consumers….this is beyond wrong. This smashes my moral and ethical nerves.
I shutter at the consequences of this act. CA is one strict place. Ouch….if I was anyone of you….I would simply stop pushing send and creating evidence. Trust me….I know all about the FDA, CDFA, local health departments. They know their work and they do their jobs out here in CA.
On top of all of this….The Complete Patient is the greatest source of evidence. They read and copy all of these comments. Talk about ignorance, naivety, and sheer stupidity. I am shocked….truly.
I will say no more.
“Miller consumers sitting on the floor with their contraband asking others if they wanted some….because “they liberated it””
Assuming that these Miller customers paid for those items, I say good for them for taking it back! Those were their items, after all. Weren’t they? Is it not our civic duty to disobey unjust laws, whether or not the media is there to catch it?
Amanda, I think it was only as yet unsold product. I don’t think authorities went around riffling through people’s bags and snatching product out of their hands.
Well, it certainly wouldn’t be the first time that authorities have stolen product that consumers had already paid for in advance.
Mark, I don’t blame the conference attendees for doing what they did. They saw what seemed like arbitrary regulation, and they saw an opportunity to protest it, and did so. I agree, this wasn’t the place and time to carry out a protest. Unfortunately, the Weston A. Price Foundation, as the conference organizer, had responsibility to ensure that the exhibitor (the farmer) behaved according to the hotel, state, and conference rules. For whatever reasons, it didn’t carry out its responsibilities, and that is unfortunate.
David, numerous attempts were made by staff including myself to halt this activity. Some of us were very upset at what was going on because it put not only WAPF, but the hotel in jeopardy. This was an excellent hotel with staff that was beyond friendly and eager to please, doing everything they could possibly do to meet our high expectations, especially in the kitchen which is where the dairy products in question were contained. Thus it was beyond frustrating to see that a few renegades were ignoring, even flaunting, the embargo on Miller products. This put the hotel at great risk for massive fines as they were the ones considered responsible by the county. It also could have created great tension between all of us and the hotel staff which would have hindered our working relationship for the duration. Thankfully, the hotel seemed unaware of what was going on in the hallways of our conference.
Furthermore, when Mark and OP have gone through so many trials to keep raw milk flowing in California and endured many battles with the state to keep their own brand out there, it would seem a slap in the face for illegal milk from another state to be present at a conference where they had contributed so much over the years, and this year in particular. Thank you Mark and Blaine for all of the wonderful product which you donated for our meals, and I am sincerely apologetic for the problems associated with the “contraband”.
Wait, back when Hershberger customers violated an embargo everyone was cheering them on. Why would people act any different here?
Oh thats right, now its YOUR necks on the line.
“Furthermore, when Mark and OP have gone through so many trials to keep raw milk flowing in California and endured many battles with the state to keep their own brand out there, it would seem a slap in the face for illegal milk from another state to be present at a conference where they had contributed so much over the years”
That right there is the key. Forget food freedom and what the consumers want. Follow the money.
agreed = follow the $$ alright …. into the pockets of da self-centred farmer, who ignored warnings, putting his own profit ahead everyone else’s concerns. But what does he care ? He’s back home warm + dry, 1000 miles away .. leaving others to deal with the consequences of his stupidity … probably sitting in a Bible study right now… I’m hoping the Holy Spirit will give him understanding of the verse in his big antique Bible
…. “in a multitude of counsellors, there is wisdom”
… let’s see the same people who demand fungibility of profit$ from Dave Weitzel /Green Pastures through to Sally Fallon’s personal purse, follow the money trail from the booth advertising “Amish-R-US” back to the account of the elder(s) to whom Amos Miller tithes
heading -off the gripes from the peanut gallery about my poor sportsmanship : I do not care about Amish doctrine. My comments about the fiasco in Annaheim, are directed at the sanctimonious-ness in which the food biz. has mired itself. Da farmer is just a handy example. If a particular merchant plays on his religious tradition as a way to distinguish his product from others = saying that his product is somehow superior because it’s produced according to a peculiar religious tradition, then it’s fair to critique him / his conduct, using that reference.
… same can be said for any given brand of kosher hot dogs. I mentioned the Lubavichers because the way they compromise between strict kashrut, versus the real world, is comical.
Maureen, I don’t know exactly what went wrong in Anaheim. I suspect the farmer may have had some inexperienced people running its site, that the ground rules weren’t clearly and firmly laid out in advance, and then, as you say, “a few renegades” were pressuring the farmer’s people for raw dairy product. I wasn’t there, just sounds like a confused situation.
It’s a difficult situation, because at a WAPF conference, everyone wants raw dairy products. They’re disappointed when they can’t get them, or can’t get them from a farmer they know produces them. And many don’t understand the distinction between public and private availability of raw dairy.
Mark, “Criminally broken”? Perhaps in the eyes of some especially the eyes of the regulator he is a criminal. However, as Martin Luther King suggested, I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.
I agree more or less with your statement about strategically planning ones activism. Then again sometimes one is compelled to fly by the seat of their pants in such matters, as Michael Schmitt appears to have done on more then one occasion.
Perhaps you could elaborate on the mixing of OPDC product with Miller product?
Mark: Your anger is justifiable, but you must understand that it is the FDA who are the criminals, not those who poke them in the nose. State and county “health” authorities are merely their lapdogs. The FDA is busily, as we sit here, every day, promoting the most dangerous quackery, and destroying the health our children. They are fully bought. They are disgusting. Are you advocating that we allow them to do as they please? I quote Thomas Jefferson: “When the people are afraid of the government you have tyranny. When the government is afraid of the people, you have liberty.”
@ Ken and Gary: I agree. These people did not break God’s food laws, that’s the job of the FDA. Folks just upset the apple cart when it comes to the false doctrine of the FDA over-achievers/leash pets. I doubt it was ever meant to be a sanctioned “protest” with cameras rolling et al. This was simply a case of people doing what people do when they are royally pissed off! Wahoo!! I don’t think it reflects badly on the people who participated or WAPF, for that matter. Things just unfolded as they unfolded, that’s all.
I’d still like to know the story behind Mark’s statement that this Amish farmer was “mixing” his products with OPDC products and serving it to unknowing consumers. What does that mean? How was that done? Why would he have done it and/or why was it wrong if he did? Lotsa questions here remain unanswered. OPDC probably got a lot of mileage out of that, actually . . .
I agree. I would also like to know the answer to these questions.
yes, indeed : let’s have the facts as to the allegation that da Farmer rolled in to Annaheim offering his own stuff plus products he gathered from across the continent, then presented it all, alongside the local, legitimate raw milk dairy. IF SO – and let’s get part cinched, or not – there you have a deplorable example of someone riding the coat-tails of the trailblazer … exploiting the work of OPDairy work for his own prestige = read, “profit”
.
… back in 1984, I had a little route of health food stores in the Vancouver BC area. When I’d say the fresh-pressed raw apple juice was “organic”, people were puzzled what that word meant. Now, the “organic” sector is 15% of the food market. Along the way, the word was mis-apropriated by the corporate monsters, and utterly perverted. The Weston A Price Foundation made its reputation educating consumers as to the nutrition to be found in REAL MILK differentiated from the stuff coming out of CAFOs. From what’s come through in this latest thread ; the directing mind of the WAPF condones a vendor confusing the issue. Be assured, the officious opponents of REAL MILK will keep that insult to their authority, up their sleeve.
…. “God’s Law”? he says?? Yeah, I know that routine all too well : religious fanatics will cite you Romans 13, on days when it suits them, then squirm-away from its implications in their own life, when it doesn’t suit them.
@ Gordon: You said “yes, indeed : let’s have the facts as to the allegation that da Farmer rolled in to Annaheim offering his own stuff plus products he gathered from across the continent, then presented it all, alongside the local, legitimate raw milk dairy. IF SO – and let’s get part cinched, or not – there you have a deplorable example of someone riding the coat-tails of the trailblazer … exploiting the work of OPDairy work for his own prestige = read, “profit” “.
Those are the things we don’t know until Mark explains what he meant in his comment about the farmer “mixing” his own product with OPDC product – whatever that means.
David G. has already said the Amish farmer and OPDC have two completely different business models (or something to that effect), so I think you’re reading a lot into it that isn’t there. I gathered from the comments of others that this Amish farmer does just fine on his own and doesn’t need someone else’s coat tails.
D, I am guessing Gordon doesn’t fully understand the dynamics of the American raw dairy market, which is much more advanced than that of Canada’s primitive market (kept primitive thanks to ongoing heavy-handed regulation). da Farmer whose product was seized isn’t riding anyone’s coattails. He’s a hard working farmer, who depends heavily on not only his hard work, but a small community of other farmers. As I indicated earlier, he operates under a completely different model than OPDC, and the two don’t directly compete in any meaningful way. For whatever reason, they found themselves making food available at the same organization conference, but otherwise they are on different paths.
David,
Your analogy, could very well be correct and indeed an explanation for Mark’s comment that, “OPDC products are mixed with Millers products and served to unknowing consumers”. That being said however, and although I did consider the possibility of such an explanation, the door remains open to numerous dubious incriminating assumptions until Mark clarifies his remark.
@ David: I said all the same things you just said, I just wanted Mark to explain what he meant in his comment concerning the “mixing” of da farmer’s goods and OPDC goods – and given to unwitting consumers – according to what Mark wrote earlier. I want to know what that means. Mark doesn’t seem to have any trouble speaking up about anything else . . . =8
And David,you don’t fully understand the dynamics of Canadian law – that there is NO difference between “public” and “private” commerce here. It’s all commerce.
I admit I have not read your book, but if you in your book have advised Canadians to set up private food buying clubs and hence try to skirt around the law that way, and if Canadians subsequently break Canadian law and get in trouble for doing it, then I think that you may bear some moral responsible for the trouble that they get into.
GG, I don’t pretend to be an expert on Canadian law, and so have never advised Canadians to go the American route on private arrangements. After reading your analyses, I I understand better why America broke away from the British Commonwealth, and eventually via its Constitution provided protection for private associations and contracts. That’s not to say there haven’t been challenges by regulators in the U.S., but at least the subject is one the courts will consider seriously.
I think many of remember a case where “breaking the tape” was the greatest crime that came out of the matter. Of course if they hadn’t put the tape up in the first place, when there was really no cause, it wouldn’t have been broken. But authorities don’t look at it that way. It’s like being wrongfully convicted and going to prison, breaking out to gather the information to prove your innocence, then being charged, and convicted, and go to prison for . . . breaking out of prison.
I thought all of the food got thrown away — Mark you mentioned happy dumpster divers. Was it the dumpster divers that brought it back in or was it all not thrown away? I don’t understand how it was both confiscated and still there to be taken.
I think he might’ve been referring to a different, if not similar, incident when he mentioned the dumpster diving.
Mark specifically said cheesecake thrown away, I believe.
On a brighter note….great Raw Milk progress news from Australia!
http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/agribusiness/dairy/leading-us-raw-milk-producer-insists-it-can-be-safe-for-consumption/story-fnkeqg0i-1227605001144
Wait, wait, wait….Mark chastises everyone for “outing this farmer” and warns that all of the agencies are monitoring this page. Yet…he is the one who gives the most detailed account of the farmer and consumer actions (ie:”The quarantine on the seized Miller raw dairy products was not lifted….it was criminally broken. Consumers or others simply broke the law and took the embargoed product out of the designated place and sold it. I heard glorious victorious celebration all about this act. Miller consumers sitting on the floor with their contraband asking others if they wanted some….because “they liberated it”….the act of breaking embargo notices….becomes the biggest crime and compounds the initial basic violations. It is almost as if WAP <<>> attracts borderline personalities that get a rush out of criminal activity or pushing the limits….or dangerous behaviors.) Don’t name them by name….but Mark does. It is like he is typing his testimony in court.
Really???? If you are a farmer, you a take a (silent) oath to uphold farming and your fellow farmers. Hard working, boots-in-the-milking-parlor-365-twice-a-day-folk do this. We understand. We all make our money one way or another. (For the record, I, personally, do not think, business men (or women) who buy a farm as an investment & pay others to do the work can call themselves farmers).
Sounds like Mark doesn’t like the way Miller is making his money & is throwing him under the bus (on the world-wide platform). I don’t know where the WAPF comes into play in all of this. From what others say & documents provided here, Sally runs a tight ship when it comes to the conference. I find it hard to believe that she did not know this farmer was going to bring these products to the conference. Did WAPF want this farmer on the FDA radar? Why? Is he outsourcing? Does his consumers know this? Was this a way to bring this to light? Why does Mark say the cheese comes from OH, yet the farm is in PA? Why/how does this farmer have co-ops in CA (among other states) when OPDC legally sells raw milk etc in CA? Does his farm in PA support all of these co-ops listed on his web page? Are there co-ops that he provides to that aren’t listed on his website? Are these the questions Mark & Sally seek answers to? Do they already know the answers?
I comment infrequently here, follow regularly. I have a lot of respect for those doing the work in this movement. Choice is becoming more infrequent in our country and I understand that it is a lot of work to uphold what you believe in. I feel it every day. Sometimes the work is in front of a computer, sometimes it is under the belly of a cow.
“Wait, wait, wait….Mark chastises everyone for “outing this farmer” and warns that all of the agencies are monitoring this page. Yet…he is the one who gives the most detailed account of the farmer and consumer actions […] Don’t name them by name….but Mark does.”
^ Yep. I was thinking the same thing.
As best I understand, raw butter from OPDC was mixed and or whipped together with one or more other out of state raw Dairymans butter and served to hundreds of people at several meals. Gallons of raw milk from out of state producers were delivered to a wap child care area many hours “after a total embargo” of all out of state raw dairy products was enforced by the Orange County Health Department. This I know first hand.
The out of state raw dairy products came from a whole bunch of producers and not just one. It appears that Millers Organic has become so popular that Millers now gets raw dairy from many farms and then distributes them in many states.
This is no secret. The Milkers Organic Farm openly explains all of this at its website.
National distribution…Amish….website…FedEx….???? Does not sound very Amish or local. Scratching my head.
To be clear, Amos Miller was not present at WAP. Two young Amish boys were doing all the sales work and mixing took place in the food preparation areas by chief staff or others. None of this is a secret. It was very much public information openly known to hundreds of WAP attendees.
The Miller Organic Farm “table top sign” was official and pre printed by WAP management. It was clear to me that WAP invited Millers to attend and provide his products. Why else would he have “three tables at WAP convention”. I will say that WAP has policy against sales of out of state or illegal raw dairy at its conventions.
Am I going to get negative thumbs down votes for providing…” Just the facts”?
I do not get all of the negativity. Outsourcing is a social felony and high crime at this blog….but….is it ok if it is from 2000 miles away and from a religious sect?
Local, tested, legal, properly labeled is bashed and when unlabeled, untested, distant and unknown is embraced. You guys confuse me!?!?
Let me ask you all a good question: how do you know what is inside a bottle of strawberry flavored raw milk when there is no label or contents described?? By the way….there is no organic certified flavors that meet any sort of organic standards for a Stanard of Identity for flavored raw milk. Lastly, there is no Stanard of identity for flavored raw milks in Pennsylvania or any other state! Are these raw products certified organic? Not possible….they do not meet an official standard of identity. So they are also miss branded and miss represented as organic. Where are the USDA organic certs for these products?
OPDC busts its backside to assure USDA organic integrity only to be placed side by side and mixed together with a fraud. Getting and keeping insurance? OPDC pays a fortune.
Pissed….just a little.
The public should feel outrage. For some strange reason, WAP attendees ( in general ) seem to prefer this fraud and could care less about local or tested or labeled properly or organic integrity.
Almost as if…Amish is its own certification and a glass mason jar is trusted just because it is a glass mason jar. I guess….ignorance is a blissful place.
Am I supposed to be happy about all of this? These are the facts as I see them and have experienced them.
How is raw milk ever supposed to become respected when this type of conduct is embraced and defended.
My staff tells me that WAP is no longer our target consumer and we have moved on to serve all people and not just the beginning market niche. I think they are right.
We love all and serve all with integrity. That means WAP,Primal, Paleo, Caveman, organic, meditaranean, Moms that cook, Families, the lactose intolerant, the allergenic,…..the sick, the healthy, athletes…. everyone. I have also learned that the FDA does not appear to enforce equally or evenly. They would put me in jail for what happened at WAP.
Another hard lesson in life….it is not fair, not just and not equal.
I get that also.
Mark, I can appreciate your concern about mixing of raw dairy products. And your upset at how the Weston A. Price Foundation enforced its own rules and those of the hotel about the distribution of the other farm’s products. However, I must take issue with your suggestions that the other farm is somehow operating outside the law or is fraudulent. Everyone who obtains products from that farm is a member of a Private Membership Association. I am a member, and every year I sign a two-page contract and pay an annual membership fee. That association is organized under the First and 14th Amendments of the U.S. Constitution that guarantee freedom of association.
The key to the association is that members are organized via private contracts, and thus are outside the commercial and regulatory constraints that you operate under. I know that galls you, but it has been upheld legally and has proven workable over many years, and allows many people to access good nutrient-dense food they wouldn’t otherwise have access to. There have been no illnesses that I am aware of.
I described the use of Private Membership Associations at length in my book, “Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Food Rights”, along with the legal aspects, and included much information about the farmer in question.
I know the farmer in question, and he has been at many conferences, including WAPF, and always obeyed the rules he was provided with. He is not a social activist, and indeed, like most Amish, avoids legal and regulatory conflicts. That’s why I have maintained that the rules at last weekend’s WAPF conference, or their enforcement, weren’t as in the past. Or else the farmer didn’t oversee management of his group in charge of the conference, and there was confusion as a result. Whatever, I know he regrets the problems.
As I said before, you and he operate in different arenas–you in the public food arena and he in the private food arena. Both deserve respect from our community.
Thank you for the explanations, Mark and David.
It is obvious there is a difference between the public sale of things and the private sale of things.
Mark said “Two young Amish boys were doing all the sales work and mixing took place in the food preparation areas by chief staff or others. None of this is a secret. It was very much public information openly known to hundreds of WAP attendees.” I have to assume you meant to say Chef Staff when you were talking about the mixing, and that the mixing wasn’t a secret to the consumers – so they weren’t, then, unwitting or unwilling consumers as you previously stated. I see no problem with that as long as everyone knew it. It appears they did this without your permission, however. Did the actual WAPF “food consultants” know that you hadn’t been contacted or hadn’t given your permission? It would appear there are some gaps in the chain of command where the served foods are concerned.
David, it’s talk of these “private member associations” without clarifying that these are ONLY an option in the United States that is giving grief to so many Canadian raw milk farmers and consumers who have been led to believe that they are an option in Canada. It is frustrating to see so many in the Canadian raw milk movement trying tactics that only work under American law – such as court cases into which Canadians have misguidedly poured hundreds of thousands of dollars of their own funds – because some American told them that court cases change the law, that judges can make law. Well, welcome to Canada — they don’t.
The role of a judge (who is a civil servant) in Canada is to interpret the law, NOT change it. Judges now get a bit more power under the new Charter, to rule a law is “in violation of the Charter,” but Canada is a Commonwealth Nation founded on English Common Law where the principle of the Supremacy of Parliament is ultimately upheld in the end, so our Charter of Rights contains two clauses (Section 1 for ‘reasonable limits’ to rights and Section 33 as “the notwithstanding clause”) that allow laws to be passed which do limit Charter rights, much to citizens’ annoyance. If you don’t believe this, then look at the laws in Quebec which ban the English language.
Check out any food-related law in Canada, such as the “Farm Products Marketing Act” of Ontario – and you can see that no-where in this law does it say that private sales are exempt. It covers ALL food produced:
“2. The purpose of this Act is to provide for the control and regulation in any or all aspects of the producing and marketing within Ontario of farm products including the prohibition of such producing or marketing in whole or in part”
Examine this carefully: “any and all aspects” “in whole or in part.” Check the Definitions section of the Act for how “farm product” and “marketing” are defined – http://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90f09#BK0 .
Every province has the exact same law, doing the same thing, just under different titles and slightly different wordings. The very veggies in our back gardens are under Government control (and to show you how authoritarian Canada is, by the letter of the law, we’ve been graciously and generously granted “personal use exemptions” by the marketing boards that allow us to grow them, but only up to a certain volume or weight of total crop …).
And now another cowshare in Ontario has gone afoul of the authorities because they broke the law, thinking that being a co-op somehow put them above the law, because they got advice from people who live in a different country where “private commerce” is beyond the law. Sorry, but a law banning raw milk distribution (part of the “Heath Protection and Promotion Act”) is just that – a ban on distribution – there is no exemption. If you want to get milk from the farm to your house under the current law, then you have either to pick it up yourself or set-up a car-pooling system among members — plus making certain that your contracts are tight, that you actually own cow and hence own that milk right from the udder, and that there is NO price linked to volume or type of product. Not hire a truck and driver and/or sell it by the litre and/or make it look like custody and ownership of the product is only being transferred to the consumer when the product is being handed out the back of the truck. And meanwhile, organize into an advocacy group and lobby to get the law changed.
So, a polite request to the Americans here – please stop convincing Canadians that they can challenge Canadian law in the courts and win, or break the law using “private agreement” as an excuse and expect not to get punished. In Canada, commerce is commerce – if money changes hands for any product, it falls under the law
With all due respect, GG, it is each person’s responsibility to understand how the law of the land works in their own home state (or country) and to plan their actions accordingly. I would not ask a Canadian for legal advice on how to run something in the states. That would be foolish.
Thanks Mark, Where this discussion goes from here is anyone’s guess. You won’t get a thumbs down from me. As I’ve previously stated, I have no issue with outsourcing, nor should it be considered a felony, as long as it’s open and transparent.
Sounds like Mark is butthurt over them capturing the interstate sales market he’s been covering for so many years now after getting shut down.
Perhaps my next move is to grow a beard, get some cool draft horses, get a black hat and start an OPDC buyers club in Las Vegas and sell raw milk like hot cakes at a high school band fund raiser.
I guess I am the stubborn hard headed one. David…you seem to be right, the FDA appears to agree with your arguments about private sales agreements. If their actions or lack of action is any indication.
Time will tell. The FDA seems to enforce based on complaints and exception. They know that they do not win many points when they beat up on the Amish. Every time they beat up on any raw dairy…raw dairy seems to become more popular. Beating up on privately contracted Amish raw milk could be their biggest Waterloo.
I am not sure Blaine will be a very good Amish wife….she calls it like it is…with passion.
That would be quite a cool picture, Mark. of you with a full beard, black hat, white shirt, vest, suspenders, in a horse-drawn carriage.
and get a copyright on that image- of the Amishman – before they do. From the compromises made so far, no doubt the Amish are willing to go to the Courts of the English = “the world” = , when it suits them, ie. … when there’s enough $ in it to overcome the traditions of men.
…. I’m interested to know if the Amish who were selling raw milk products etc. at the Weston A PRice convention, had a credit card terminal at their booth. Wouldn’t that just be the capper?! … “we have no problem with co-operating with the Beast system, as long as the meetinghouse gets its tithe of the net profit!”
@ Mark: You sound as though you are mad about the Amish way of providing the same thing you’re providing, only because they do it differently than you. I thought your whole purpose in life was to get the good raw milk to the Mad Mom’s of america for their children, no matter what? Isn’t that what your usual mantra is around here? Well, da Amish farmer is doing the same thing – supplying a needed and wanted product. If he wasn’t he wouldn’t have any clients, no?
You also sound as though you actually WANT the fdUH to take action against other raw milk farmers if they aren’t doing things exactly the same way you are. I may be all wrong here, but that sounds rather hypocritical to me. There’s always more than one way to do something and thank the Lord for that.
There is room for all of you. America is a big country and since you can’t YET supply everyone in the USA 😉 let someone help you, Mark, and don’t attack them for what they do. You’re probably quite lucky they won’t belittle you with words the way you have done to them. I don’t think they believe in doing that sort of thing. I’m not Amish so I could be wrong, but it doesn’t really seem like their style.
Mark, I agree with David regarding it being really cool with you growing a full beard while wearing those clothes and being on a horse drawn carriage selling raw milk.
Growing my beard….shopping for horses.
Mark: Thanks for the explanation. Bizarre things went on last weekend, unbeknownst to me, except we didn’t have promised (in the menu) cheese (one of my favorite foods) at the meal after the thugs confiscated it. I for one appreciate what you do. I can ride my bicycle half a mile and get raw cheese, butter, cream, and two kinds of raw milk any day of the week. For that I am eternally grateful. You also have my permission to get mad as hell any time you want, and write about it here. As for the beard, I’d advise against it. Pain in the butt to sleep with a beard. Horses, on the other hand, are beautiful creatures, but they’ll eat you out of pasture in no time.
Gary,
Was Geoffrey Morrell at the WAPF conference? If so, did he have a booth?
Lynn_M: I don’t know for certain, but I really doubt it. I only saw Sally eating once, at one of the lunches, and he wasn’t there, nor did I see any groping booths. According to Kaayla Daniel, the concerned women of the board got her to keep him under lock and key for several conferences. I know he was at Dallas, and I saw him walking in with her last year. I suspect that that is the last conference attendees will see of him.
@ Mark: Really, you should be ashamed of yourself, Mark. You were very much in support of Vernon Hershberger, were you not? He’s Amish. How do you suppose he would feel if he were reading this? Might not hurt for you to remember, and live in the past a little bit yourself.
http://modernfarmer.com/2013/05/amish-raw-milk-farmer-vernon-hershberger-wins-big-in-court/
D. Smith, I did not know that the beard, clothes, and horse carriage were specifically a symbolism for something regarding . If I knew, I would have never said in response to his comment that it would have been cool for him to dress like that and have a horse carriage. I hope no one has been offended with my previous comment regarding that. I simply was very unaware of what he actually meant by his comment. I’m new here and I have not read everything on David’s blog nor all the comments here and most likely did not fully understand Mark’s comment.
*regarding the Amish
an “Amish-R-Us” boutique coming to a neighbourhood near you … right next to WholeFoods = Leroy Stolzfus finished the Harrisburg Marathon earlier this month in just over 3 hours while turning heads by wearing traditional clothing, hat and all. In contrast to the messenger who ran the very first marathon, naked, Mr Stolzfus wore the uniform costume of his religion in order to … ?? hmmm. You got me there. Why would he encumber his-self with another 5 pounds of cloth if he didn’t have to?
…. Reason I go on about this, is : the Slow Foods movement/ Campaign for REAL MILK, exalted the label “Amish” to be sacrosanct. But what happened at the recent WAPF convention, exposes its use as nothing more than a marketing gimmick.
It’s only a “marketing gimmick” for those who aren’t truly Amish.
it’s a marketing gimmick, if it trades on form, versus substance. Amish men who go out in the world, using the brand-name of their sect, to enhance sales, are selling their soul for Federal Reserve Notes. and the ones who’d be severest, levelling that criticism, would be the founders of that community
here’s your test question : are you saying that cheese, produced in Ohio, by some non-Amish dairy, is somehow superior in nutrition, because it happens to have been brokered by a guy who wears the big broad hat, and wears his hair and whiskers a certain way? Comes to mind the Lubavitchers, who have a good claim for copyright infringement on the icon of big hat and beard and ringlets on packages of kosher cream cheese. Much truth is said in jest
I don’t recall saying anything even remotely like that, Gordon. As a consumer, I would never buy something overpriced or anything else, just because it showed a photo of an Amish man or woman, or because it said “made by Amish farmers” or whatever.
But if truly Amish people want to use their own lifestyle to sell their products, that is their business. American dairy farmers (both types) often show photos of red barns or a cow on the front of their products and no one has issues with that – and those are out and out lies. Look at Hilshire Farms sausage packages – shows an old-fashioned red barn. I’ll bet the animals ground up to make their sausage never once see the inside of a real barn, only the confinement operation buildings.
You seem to be confusing truth with jest.
@Gordon
“Amish men who go out in the world, using the brand-name of their sect, to enhance sales, are selling their soul for Federal Reserve Notes.”
Except that (the farmer) isn’t using his Amishness as a brand name at all. His business is called “(The Farmer)’s Organic Farm” …NOT (The Farmer)’s Amish Farm.
the advertising biz. was taught by Professor Marshal McLuhan that = around a brand there’s a “constellation of ideas”. A merchandiser persistently presents an icon, in the marketplace as a way to get attention, to cultivate brand loyalty, especially, by feelings rather than logic. A life-size statue of Ronald McDonald outside a McDonalds outlet, and in ever piece of literature they produce, being one of such icons. An Amish-man wearing the uniform of his religious cult, standing in front of his booth, evokes such a constellation of ideas around his product. He’s advertising his wares, same as the clown in costume is a copyrighted icon of the McDonald’s corporation. I take issue with Weston A Price Foundation et al. putting these guys on a pedestal. When I see guys who have one foot in the world of the horse&buggy age – as though that’s more in harmony with Biblical principles – meanwhile they’re happily using point-of-purchase terminals … I gag. And the idea on this forum = that the Amish are not to be criticized because “awww … they’re so sincere” – is comical
What’s really comical is that you’re trying really hard to convince us of some sort of “Amish conspiracy” that we’re all being duped by.
FYI, (the farmer) does not take credit card payments.
if you gathered that I was “trying really hard to convince us of some sort of Amish conspiracy”, then the failure to communicate is on your end, not mine. My comments on that religion, comes from being fed-up to the back teeth with how foodies have turned the desire for simple good food, into preciousness. This over-heated fad has passed the tipping point when consumers see through the hype, then quit buying. I was pointing out the stupidity of that mentality, flocking to buy things trucked 1000 miles, when the emphasis on local, is a major part of the Campaign for REAL MILK. Hurt feelings? Maybe that was overdue?
….Your bleating, Amanda, makes my case that the Amish ought not to be somehow sacrosanct in the food biz just for the sake of their strange get-up
No, Gordon, my feelings are not hurt. I think you sound silly, actually.
Sure local is better, when possible. Unfortunately we aren’t all blessed to have local access to certain foods, Iike raw dairy. In that case, folks will look elsewhere to obtain said items… and if that gets your pants in a twist then I’m afraid that’s your problem.
Watson, you are displaying your ignorance. The farmer in question has been supplying food clubs for 15 years. Made the huge transition from producing milk for Big Dairy for the same reason other farmers have done the same–didn’t want to be part of a dying system and wanted to provide people with healthy food. He doesn’t market based on being Amish at all. He is extremely modest and self effacing. I know a number of other Amish farmers who are very similar. Sure, there are those who go mainly for the $$$ and don’t care about quality, but you have those in every religious or racial group known to man.
well, then = why is the religious label, an issue at all? I’m sure the Amishman is a nice guy and a good father and a good husband, and all the rest. I am not talking about the quality of milk and blood + fat in the sausages. MY point overall, is : it’s ridiculous for the Slow Food movement / Campaign for REAL MILK, to revere foods coming out of Amish compounds because the perseverance of those people – separating demselves from the world – kept their agriculture cleaner than the corporate equation. Apparently – some of Amish feel they can breach that hedge of protection when the inducement of profit is great enough.
… Like every ethnic group in the face of the tidal wave of global-ism, the Amish are dealing with the question of “self versus not-self”. Da farmer who rolled in to Annaheim with his wares, already answered that question in light of = “Friendship with the world is enmity to God” Trafficking in Federal Reserve Notes and participation in the banking racket of the Beast, being the litmus test
@ Gordon: So what you’re saying is it doesn’t matter whether he’s Amish or not or whether or not he has a good product, you think it’s all about money.
And what “religious label” are you talking about? You manage to squeeze religious inferences into every one of your posts.
You didn’t seem to have a problem mentioning, in times past on this blog, that it was fine for you and Mark et al to charge mega-prices for YOUR raw milk or other products and how it was all about making a dollar off all your hard work and how you all deserved that money, when many of us flat-out said there’s no way we could/would pay $20+ for a gallon of raw milk – at least not where I live. We also tried to make the case for the fact that some of the people who could really use the fresh milk for their health issues would not be able to do so at those prices and you seemed fine with that, as if to say *so what . . . if they can’t afford it that’s just too damn bad*. But now you’re NOT all about the money unless someone else is making it and has a different business model than yours? You’re not “trafficking in Federal Reserve Notes (or Canadian notes, whatever they’re called) and participating in the banking racket of the Beast”? Ha.
I was never referring to JUST “da farmer” originally mentioned here – I was referring to any and all Amish people who want to use their “amishness” for business purposes if that’s what they want to do. I also wasn’t saying that Hillshire Farms was an Amish sausage business. Hillshire Farms is a corporate CAFO business owned by Sara Lee.
“well, then = why is the religious label, an issue at all?”
Good question, Gordon. Perhaps you can answer that one for us since you seem to be the only one who has an issue with (the farmer)’s religion.
the religious label was folded-in to the original report to do with the WAPF convention … wasn’t me who raised it.
… What does the religious affiliation of a food producer have to do with it all … anyway … I had the temerity to point out that that’s part of his schtick. Commentary about merchandising certainly IS on-point the politics of the Weston A Price Foundation, is it not?
….If a raw milk producer had rolled-in to that convention from the Aryan Nations compound in Sandpoint Id. – his blue eyed blond-haired kinfolk standing out dramatically where La Raza controls the turf … would it matter if they cleave to a peculiar interpretation of Scripture?
Lynn,
Geoffrey was not present at WAP.
D. Smith,
Politics and risks are local. I do not think you can appreciate the massive risk of the loss of insurance for OPDC. One claim and our insurance coverage is cancelled and or increased massively for many years. Mixing of our products with an out of state untested, unlabeled, uninsured raw dairy product from unknown origin has a massive risk profile and it violates all of the tenants of RAWMI RAMP.
I am not ashamed at all. Before you come back with some inflammatory response….please give your comment some pause for thought
I totally supported Vernon and the huge effort he made. What he did was true activism and changed the raw milk political landscape of Wisconsin for the better. He is one of my hero’s.
@Mark: It seems like you are placing blame on (the farmer) for something that the conference chef staff did. Why? It sounds like (the farmer) had no more control over the mixing of products than you did.
‘had no more control over the mixing of products” ?! Ah, I see. So… “it’s nobody’s fault” ie, the confusion at the WAPF convention, in which ( apparently) free-booters took advantage of the reputation / prestige of Organic Pastures, to make a profit for demselves. Where did that profit wind up? Circulating in the local community? No – from the little information coming thru this forum – it’s fungible to accounts maintained in the temples of Mammon. Meaning = the very most basic premise of those who began the Amish way of life = separation from the world = is undone by them happily trafficking with the Bank-sters. Fortunately Elvis Costello gave me the anti-dote for the disgust I feel whenever I encounter Christians, sucking & blowing at the same time : “I used to be disgusted, but now I just try to be amused”
…. For the last 30-or-so-years, I’ve been agitating for people to bloody-well WAKE UP and examine the evidence, about the lies promoted about foodstuffs ….(as well as so many more aspects of modern life) … as a starting-point de-programming demselves from the 12 years+ of brainwashing they suffered in the public fool system.
….When I came upon the real milk website, circa 2000?, the Weston A Price Foundation was = past tense = leading the way with the Campaign for REAL MILK. Sally Fallon / Mary Enig and the many people who helped them, walked the walk : ‘get the facts. Think for yourself’. The engine of the Slow Food movement, and its sympathizers, is : informed consumers TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN HEALTH. The anti-thesis of how Ham-merica got so sick ; shirking duty to family, to society. The swarms of officials who ride along within Big Sister= govamint, are only too ‘happy to help you out with that’, if ‘n you let them.
… the underlying tone of what’s gone on, on this forum for 2 months, to do with oils derived from fermented fishguts, is : ascertaining fault. That has to happen in order to fix the problem.
… Mr McAffee has a very good point : what would’ve happened had there been an actual, or trumped-up – report of food poisoning, from products offered for sale at the WAPF conference?’ Would the same commenters, be saying = ‘oh, well, those were just a couple of Amish-boys, kids, who didn’t know any better’,? Be assured that had that scenario played-out, gunslinger Bill marler would ride in to town, and sign up anyone within hailing distance, as potential clients. And of course that perennial thorn-in-the-side … with her sob story … now a decade remote in time, would weigh-in, right on cue.
@ Mark: Inflammatory?? I was talking about your references to beards and horses. You read into it what you wanted to see.
@ Mark: Also, I didn’t realize my post wouldn’t show up right underneath yours where you were referring to the beard and the horses. They live a different lifestyle than you do and that’s how they sell their products – using what they know best. You sell your product calling it Organic Pastures and yet in truth, ALL pastures are organic. It’s planted fields which are not organic. So you’re gaming a little yourself. And I guarantee you the Amish have been around and producing safe milk a lot longer than you have.
“all pastures are organic” ?! pardon moi ? …. come on up to Britali~mumbia, when the local dairy and pig farmers, go out on the fields spraying what’s been saved -up in the manure lagoons, for a few months. That’ll clear your sinuses! …
… talk about air pollution !! what’s in that stuff is what’s passed through the industrial farming equation, twice. First, grown as feed with every artificial fertilizer known to modern science, then, through the intestines of poor animals suffering in their ‘farrowing pens’ and standing around in feedlots up to their hocks in filth. One of the pinchpoints in the CAFO machine, is : waste handling. God only knows what accumulates in the soil on which it’s dumped … the very opposite of truly ‘organic’
… Dave Weitzel has blundered in mis-handling the fermented oil issue = insulating himself from his customers. But you can never take away from him the fact that he’s THE pioneer of restorative agriculture using milk to feed the bacteria on the land.
…. my thanks to whoever it was, turned me on to the work of Dr Carey Reams. It opens up a wonderful way of thinking about how plants use energy to grow
D Smith. Except for parts of the prairie states, I think most pastures in USA will, at some time have been ‘planted’. It might help, if you used Organic to describe the certified label, and organic for things that are simply organic. OP is certified Organic according to the Organic guidelines, which includes the pasture requirement. I don’t think the nature of the pasture is specified. In practice, on Organic farms I think you might find these vary from highly productive intensively grazed fields, to a mess of weeds, to something that resembles a huge putting green. To be Organic, the pasture still has to meet the fertilizer/herbicide restrictions. Non-Organic pastures are often fertilized using prohibited compounds. I’d agree these are organic, even if they are not Organic. The milk. The same from both.
In my mind, farmers are people like the rest of us. Better to classify them only on how good they are: good organic farmers, notsogood organic farmers; good raw milk farmers, notsogood raw milk farmers, good and notsogood conventional farmers; good and notsogood CAFOs, good and notsogood farmers of any heritage, sect or religious persuasion. You might not like Mark’s Organic PAFO model, but I’d prefer his approach to a blind trust in the archaic.
Truly, John, I don’t think there’s much left in this world that should be classified as organic except pastures which have, as I stated above, never been used as a plowed field. They’re pretty hard to find, wouldn’t you say?
My point was, unless you are a denier of wind drift, organic basically doesn’t exist anywhere any longer except in a greenhouse, and that’s questionable. My comment about all pastures being organic didn’t mean what you thought it meant, I guess. My humor is sometimes very dry. If cows have been *pastured* on the same pastures where they’re also pooping, that should be a good thing. If they’ve been fed grains, you’ve got a whole different set of problems. I wasn’t in any way referring to feedlot cattle, as Flash Gordon was trying to imply.
As to you preferring Mark’s way of producing raw milk, go for it. I just meant that the Amish people have, for many generations, been producing a safe product because they themselves drink they’re own milk all the time. An undeniable fact. If anyone in their “communities” have been sick from it, mass media hasn’t spoken a word of it, not that they’d know anyhow. But with the fdA, USDA and most State agencies “monitoring” things, I’m sure we’d have heard it through the grapevine at some point. They DO tend to jump on these things with regularity that is astonishing sometimes.
;-D
D Smith. I totally agree with your first point. I often argue that ‘the same rain that falls on all farmer’s fields also falls on Organic fields’. Some pollution of our food is inescapable, I agree.
Personally, I think promoting food as ‘Organic’ or as something that doesn’t relate to what the food actually contains, is simply preying on people’s fears. But this list seems to grow every day….natural, raised without….., GMO-free, fair trade, local, humanely-raised, grass-fed and so on… So, it might not be too surprising that everyone wants to use a picture of a utopian farmstead as their promotion (although I also think this is inappropriate). ‘Fermented oil’…….enough said.
On the other hand, I would advise some caution v/v your test for milk safety. Yes, ‘ereIgoagain… In my mind, one of the big issues that still haunts/evades TCP is the concept that the exact same milk can make some people sick and not others. Farm families generally do not get sick drinking the milk from their farm. They are continuously esposed to those pathogens from manure that we call zoonoses, so a few more in their milk aren’t an issue. But, this very same milk can (and does) cause severe illness if consumed by someone without previous exposure, for example those (often children) from an urban/suburban lifestyle/environment.
Finally, I am not sure why you take issue with cattle eating grain. Cattle and grain crops (wheat, barley, rye, oats) are all thought to have originated in the Fertile Crescent. So, cattle absolutely would have consumed seeds to ensure their survival throughout history. Having selected cows for many generations to produce large amounts of milk, i think it is undesirable (if not inhumane) to now deny them access to starch from grains, at least during peak lactation.
J
@ John: You said “Farm families generally do not get sick drinking the milk from their farm. They are continuously esposed to those pathogens from manure that we call zoonoses, so a few more in their milk aren’t an issue. But, this very same milk can (and does) cause severe illness if consumed by someone without previous exposure, for example those (often children) from an urban/suburban lifestyle/environment.”
I’m sure there is a certain amount of truth in that statement but some of it, too, is myth or is taken out of context. People who have never had raw milk in their lives should never just sit down and drink a whole gallon of milk, for example. But in truth, I’ve never seen any evidence that there is actual truth to the statement that people become seriously ill from consuming it without previous exposure, in small amounts. My brother is a veterinarian and my DH is a microbiologist (amongst other things) so I’m totally familiar with your assertion regarding zoonoses. Still, there’s a lot of room for questions, debates and disagreements in that area, as far as I’m concerned. I’ve had two good teachers in regard to the pro’s and con’s thereof. But I do NOT want to argue it here because I have my thoughts, and obviously you have yours. And that’s ok, we don’t all always have to agree all the time!
I do not take issue with cattle eating grain – but only some grain. It’s just not a first choice for me, and wasn’t for my Dad, who knew more about cattle than most, although for meat, not for milk. I learned from him and I have to believe he was successful because he knew what he was doing – and he also had a great teacher – his own Dad. They did feed grain but it was not the main part of the cow diet, depending on weather and other factors.
When we were discussing grasslands in a previous post, I wanted to mention that I live in an area of the country (the “prairie”) where there are about five huge grassland areas pretty much surrounding me. They are untouched (so far) and always renew me whenever I see them in spring and summer. We often drive by the Oglala and Fort Pierre National Grasslands in one direction, and when going the other direction we often see Thunder Basin National Grassland – and there’s LOTS of it! But as you said, the same rain falls on one field as the other and in today’s world it’s not always a blessing. I hope those grasslands remain virgin territory (away from a plow) for at least a little while longer.
Liked your reference to fermented oil 😉 and ditto. Misrepresentation in advertising seems to be the norm nowadays and that’s too bad.
**I’m kind of pressed for time here so I hope all of that came out the way I intended!
D. Smith: Thank you so much for this. It is good, and it is thoughtful. It makes me happy to know that there are National Grasslands; didn’t know that. Do they have grazers and predators on them? Or are they as poorly managed as nearly every other piece of land held in common? Here in central California we once had a fairly brittle grassland; now it’s almonds for export to China as far as the eye can see. No farmers in evidence. Wall street investors bought up the land because they could smell money. And the water table is dropping precipitously, and causing serious land subsidence (as much as thirty feet in just a few years in some places), that may threaten the integrity of the major federal aqueduct that supplies vast areas of cropland in this great central valley. Almond trees drink with gusto.
@ Gary: The National Grasslands are pretty much untouched (only wild animals are allowed to graze, but they don’t set up housekeeping, although they are very beneficial). The electric companies have strung wires on the very edges on some of them because the PUC lets them, with the right amount of *green persuasion*. But most are still untouched. The areas that run along highways and gravel roads are fenced, but I’m not sure who maintains those. Each State, individually, I assume. These fields of tall, waving grasses are beautiful when we get plentiful rains, as in the past three years. In the drier years these areas very obviously fare much better than other fields because grass roots have not been disturbed. My State has Cedar River, Oglala, Fort Pierre, Buffalo Gap, Grand River and several others. If you’re interested, you can read this and look at a very small map! http://www3.northern.edu/natsource/HABITATS/Sdprai1.htm
The movie Dances With Wolves was partially filmed on the Fort Pierre National Grassland divide (again, mostly just on the edges of the grasslands), some of it here in the Black Hills, too. I’m sure other States were involved as well, but I’m not sure which ones, probably WY and MT.
Just as an aside, I used to live in Flintridge/LaCanada.
D. Smith: The reason I was curious about the beautiful grasslands near to you is that at this year’s WT conference (my last, but sure am glad I went) I attended the all-day holistic management seminar with Alan Savory and two other presenters. An amazing learning experience for me. As it turns out, and this was Alan Savory’s key insight, grasslands were created, and those deep, carbon-rich healthy soils built by vast herds of grazers on primarily perennial grasses, under predatory pressure (so they kept moving, allowing the grass to recover) and the miracle of photosynthesis. That deserts, and the current rapid desertification occurring world-wide, particularly in the brittle grasslands (those with seasonal rain and a definite dry season) are human-caused; caused, not by over-grazing, but by improper grazing (or the lack of grazing animals). A hundred cows on a patch of pasture for one day are less destructive that one cow on that same pasture for a whole year. So the solution to desertification, excess atmospheric carbon (about half of which is soil carbon released by agricultural practices), soil-building, and feeding all of us is more cattle (and other ruminants), not fewer, on well managed grasslands. I suspect the National Grasslands are not managed in the way they were created, any more than the National Parks are. I suspect they are being managed in a way that diminishes them. I’m reading a fascinating book, called Cows Save the Planet, which explains all of this in great detail.
Mark, I totally get it. If anyone became ill at the conference, OPDC would have been shutdown and tested before being allowed to reopen. It wouldn’t have mattered if the raw milk products brought in from out of state were the ones contaminated. Only testing could confirm which products were contaminated.
David,
Why aren’t the comments published in sequence? They are all out of order and it is hard to figure out who came first, second or third in time?
Mark, I’ll make an inquiry with our web master. They look a little ragged, though I’m not sure they are out of order in terms of timing. I’ll try to learn more.
We need to be very careful regarding what statements we post on the internet. A statement that is mean and condescending and/or threatening can destroy a person. Many people have had low self esteem, eating disorders, addictions, depression, social anxiety, fears, suicidal thoughts, have attempted suicide, and/or have committed suicide, and so many other serious and life threatening issues because of statements that were mean, condescending, and/or threatening that were stated either on the internet or face to face. I know this from personal experience. May our words only lift people up rather than tear people down. May we not look down on each other unless we are helping each other up. We are all equal, all valuable, and all worthy of love, compassion, and understanding.
So how did the PPPF conference go this last weekend?
And does everyone accept the conclusions of the report Green Pasture sent out on 11/20, in which Subramaniam Sathivel, Ph.D. said that his scientific analysis showed that small amounts of trans fatty acids are naturally occurring in fish, including cod liver oil?
Lynn, I thought the PPPF conference was pretty amazing, especially considering it was organized in a little over two months. I just put up a blog post about it.
As for the latest report on FCLO that you allude to, I’m not sure Sathivel is as definitive as you suggest. His conclusion: “In my opinion, the small amount of TFA in your company’s and other companies’ cod liver oils may come from cod fish.” The way I read it, his use of “may” gives him an easy out in the event it comes from other sources, like pollock, or even vegetable oil. Nothing resolved, as far as I can tell, just more techie talk.