About five years ago, when I heard an Amish farmer describe how a relative had been “shunned” by the community, I realized it was the first time I had even heard the term since I was a kid in religious school, learning Biblical stories.
As I came to know a number of Amish and former Amish, I came to hear about shunning more regularly. I heard about it from Vernon Hershberger, the Wisconsin raw dairy farmer, who was shunned for a time by the Ohio Amish community where he was raised, for deciding to pursue a more secular life; he subsequently made amends with his family, and his father testified eloquently on Vernon’s behalf at his 2013 criminal trial. While covering the trial and its aftermath, I met several members of Vernon’s church who had similarly made decisions to break with the Amish community, and had similarly been shunned.
The common thread in all their stories was about the terrible hurt and personal upheaval experienced by the shunned parties. There’s no way of getting around the pain of being shunned by the tribe where you grew up and to which you devoted so much of your life—of having family members refuse to be with you, of not being able to participate in major life events like weddings, of being seated apart at funerals of loved ones.
I can’t help but think about this ancient tribal and religious ritual as I watch Sally Fallon Morell attempt to deal with dissension in her tribe, the Weston A. Price Foundation. First to be shunned was Ron Schmid, for publishing the story about his near death from heart disease, which he thought most likely was brought on by fermented cod liver oil. Next was Kaayla Daniel, for her report. I was next, with Fallon Morell ordering other members of the WAPF tribe to refrain from linking to my blog, under penalty of shunning.
Now, I learn that Fallon Morell has followed through on her threat to legally shun those who link to my blog, by ordering out of the tribe the Santa Cruz, CA, chapter of WAPF. The shunning comes in the form of a legalistic letter about violation of a trademark agreement. “The (Santa Cruz) Chapter’s Facebook page has published and/or republished materials critical of WAPF, its goods and services, and the goods and services of WAPF’s partners, including false and defamatory materials published by Mr. David Gumpert and Ms. Kaayla Daniel….Despite several warnings, including WAPF’s September 18, 2015 notice regarding use of the mark in connection with the dissemination of Mr. Gumpert’s and Ms. Daniel’s false and defamatory materials, the Chapter’s Facebook page continues to feature these materials. Accordingly, pursuant to Sections 10 and 11 of the Agreement, we write to inform you that the Agreement has been terminated. You must immediately cease all of the Marks and you may not in any way indicate that the Chapter is or has been affiliated with WAPF. For example, you must immediately delete the Facebook profile page entitled ‘Weston A Price Foundation Santa Cruz Chapter,’ and cease all use of the WAPF name and logo.”
This is shunning, in the best, or worst, sense of the term.
The Santa Cruz chapter is one of WAPF’s oldest chapters, having started back in 2000. Jean Harrah says she took over leadership in 2007 or 2008, and until 2013, chapter communication was mostly via a list serve. In 2013, she says, nutritionist Michael McEvoy became involved, and energized the chapter.
Here is how he describes the chapter’s re-vitalization, and the hurt associated with the excommunication received yesterday: “Since November of 2013, Jean and I have held monthly WAPF potlucks at a local grange here in Santa Cruz.
“As of this past Tuesday, we have hosted 24 consecutive WAPF community potlucks. We have exposed hundreds, maybe thousands of people to the WAPF, and to Dr. Price’s work in general.
“We have made this happen despite our busy, personal lives. Jean travels 90 minutes every month to make this happen. I have sacrificed my time as a nutritionist and business owner in order to be a part of the community we have built.
“We are able to rent the local grange every month, exclusively by donations from people who attend. There are several months where we actually give our own money, in order to break even on rent.
“The potluck attendees, both returning as well as first timers, spend a considerable amount of time preparing the high quality food to share with the group, as well as sacrificing their own time to be there.
“In order to help pay rent, we have sold both of Sally’s books, as well as sold WAPF current and back issues, and other WAPF literature. We don’t have any financial incentives or motives. Any incoming finances that exceed that month’s rent, are used for back-up for the next month, if we fall short.
“Sally’s recent actions and behavior seem dichotomous to building a free and open community. I feel that one of the great attributes of WAPF chapters, is the sense of community, the feeling of charity, the feeling of open exchange of dialogue and ideas, without borders, and without reservations or bigotry.
“With the recent series of events, I feel like the WAPF is moving away from its roots of community-orientation. Through Sally’s actions, language and behavior, I have lost a sense of interest and connection to the organization, and I suspect others have as well.
“In my opinion, it appears that Sally’s behavior is self-serving, and doesn’t necessarily reflect the greater good of the community chapters who represent the WAPF. I find this deeply concerning, primarily because the WAPF has done an amazing amount of good in our world, and self-serving actions by its leaders will jeopardize the reputation of all of the WAPF chapters.
“Charitable community events, such as our potlucks, are selfless. We don’t host them for self-serving interests. I do them (and I hope I can speak for Jean as well) to freely offer my time to the greater community, so that there is more consciousness and awareness about nourishing foods, and healthy living. My hope is that the WAPF will be more sensitive to how its actions reflect negatively on its chapters.
“I am disappointed that Sally felt it necessary to remove the Santa Cruz chapter. By doing so, she has potentially dismantled a community that not only promoted her organization, but also promoted the importance of whole food nutrition, shared in monthly meals, and in selfless community gathering. I don’t suspect she has considered these factors when making her decision.”
I’d like to acknowledge at this point a comment Laurie made following my previous post, questioning my motives and those of others critical of WAPF. “This insistence on keeping the complaining front and center suggests that the real imperative here is to attempt to destroy WAPF so that you don’t have to keep working so hard to build an equivalent organization in its stead. Your problem is that WAPF has a long history of integrity so now you continue the strategy of divide and conquer by re-hashing what you have already stated and with which arguments you did not prevail.
“Now you are resorting to ad hominen attacks and character assassinations which reads like poor sports at best, and as a sneak attack by divide and conquer, Codex Alimentarius sponsors at worst.
“WAPF had a right to remove a board member who, in their collective judgement, did not have the best interests of the WAPF at heart.”
I agree that Sally Fallon Morell has the right to run the organization the way she wants, and if she wants to shun those who disagree with her, that is her right as the queen of the tribe. I can see where some might think that my purpose here is to somehow tear down and destroy WAPF.
That is not my intent, though. I’ve been a big WAPF supporter because of its backing of small farms, local food, and a shift in dietary and nutritional priorities. I don’t belong to many food-related organizations, but I have been a long-time member of WAPF, and I’ve attended a number of its conferences, as well as spoken at some. I’ve had no desire to form another organization—starting nonprofit or advocacy organizations isn’t something I’ve ever done, or aspired to.
I’ve been writing about this current controversy because of my concern about the safety of Green Pasture fermented cod liver oil and WAPF’s ongoing endorsement of it, and as part of my long-term chronicling of food rights activities. WAPF has been a major player in that struggle, and its actions on Green Pasture and fermented cod liver oil relate to that struggle, albeit in a negative way.
I really wanted the previous post I did about WAPF’s “shame” to be my last on this subject. But then I learned about this latest episode with the Santa Cruz chapter. I don’t get pleasure from writing about the pain coming out of this ongoing infighting within the food movement.
Shunning is an ancient tradition, just like many of the foods and recipes WAPF advocates. Will Sally Fallon Morell’s shunning campaign intimidate other chapter leaders and members to toe the line, to refuse to inform their members about what’s posted on this blog and elsewhere about the FCLO controversy? That is the purpose of shunning, after all—to scare the rest of the tribe from deviating from tribal edicts.
I am saddened to watch this meltdown unfold. So many options to strengthen, rather than divide a strong community. Grasping for power rather than listening really undermines the credibility of an organization that was doing such good in many areas. I no longer refer people to WAPF, but I fully support the FTCLDF. I do hope this debacle does not tarnish the important work they are doing.
You would think that food safety would be a top priority for FTCDLF. The issue Kaayla has raised about FCLO after all, is a food safety issue.
FCLO appears to be very dangerous with reports of rancidity and many reports of illness and even a near death. Yet, not a peep from FTCLDF. No cautionary alert and no voluntary recall request. WORSE yet, they promoted the WAPF conference in their newsletter. Boooo! One guy wrote that FCLO is in baby formula…and, if scaled to adult dosing, they receive the equivalent of 1 – 2 Tablespoons. WHAT! Are we going to stay silent and let parents continue uniformed?
FTCLDF is noticeably absent from this discussion. Their silence is deafening.
Here’s my take: Food Freedom cannot include the freedom to harm another by our silence.
Catholics call it a sin of omission. Knowing something is wrong, and doing nothing.Thank you David for continuing to air this problem.
Question: “What is a sin of omission?”
Answer: James 4:17 declares, “Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.”
FTCLDF is in a difficult position because of their ties to and dependence on WAPF. Like so many people and organizations. I think it is a shame that many people are afraid to speak their minds because of fear of retribution, but that is the way of the world.
Dear friend Dr. Ron, I would point out, FTCLDF has ties to both sides in this debate. Dr. Daniels is on our board, you have been a long time supporter as have others who are supporting the new foundation, my wife and I take your supplements (and was just asking about if we had any more Organ Delight!).
FTCLDF’s mission
“The FTCLDF protects the rights of farmers and consumers to engage in direct commerce; it protects the rights of farmers to sell the products of the farm and the rights of consumers to access the foods of their choice from the source of their choice. FTCLDF is a true grassroots organization and receives no government funding and little or no corporate funding.”
As such, as an organization, this issue is outside the scope of our mission, is legally problematic for us to get involved in/with (other than to suggest to the parties involved to see third party mediation and similar steps toward a solution and possible reconciliation). As a small organization, we cannot risk the good work we do being jeopardized by getting involved with a highly divisive issue that is both outside the scope of our mission and our expertise.
So while people may want us to get involved, this are, as the saying goes, not our monkeys nor our circus. We do want the best for all involved, and look forward to people with the appropriate expertise to continue to shed light onto an issue that at the moment contains a lot of heat.
Best to you dear friend.
John, if you read our mission statement for the new foundation, you will find nothing about WAPF, GP or FCLO. Our speakers at our first conference will speak about a range of topics, including Cod Liver Oil and FCLO, yes. But our mission is to build a democratic, inclusive organization for the Paleo, Primal and Weston Price communities. I might add that we would love to work together with WAPF toward mutual goals. We certainly support your mission, in spades. Now why would you not support our start-up? Why not be an exhibiting sponsor, and send one of your people to promote FTCLDF? We all know why: because Sally would come down on you, hard, if you did so. And that is exactly the problem. You are not free because you have a (self-declared) dictator dictating the terms under which your organization, and the entire structure of the WAPF, may operate. No discussion allowed. IMO, the FTCLDF is hurting itself by not acting freely. No one is asking you to take a stand on whether or not FCLO is rancid. Only that you support the beginning of a new foundation with which your organization has much in common.
I don’t get it….why is a legally problematic to support a new traditional food organization that’s all about quality food sources? No sounds like this is Sally Fallon Morrell Wetzel problematic. FTCLDF was at other non-WAPF conferences that deal with traditional foods and had no legal worries over exhibiting. Sounds like Sally also has an iron fist clamped on FTCLDF if they don’t tow her line . Very disappointing as I certainly expected more.
I would have you consider, do you know I spoke at Paleo(fx) in Austin, TX earlier this year and we are a charity partner with Paleo(fx)? Did you know Robb Wolf, of Paleo fame, is one of our biggest supporters and attends our Polyface event and was a speaker?
Again, this is the problem with the internet, imaginations run wild will facts fall through the cracks of the floor.
It is not legally problematic for us to support an organization, if you read you will see it is legally problematic for us to get involved in this conflict over FCLO and take sides. We will gladly any any conference that partners with us in our work to expand opportunities for small sustainable farmers and food freedom
Thank you friend for your encouragement. I just spoke to a very large group last night about the history of food regulation in the US over the past 100 years (Wicker vs. Filburn, Wholesome Meat Act of 1967, FSMA, and more), and even though I was allotted 60 minutes, the people asked me to stay over for almost two hours. I then went into particular FTCLDF cases like Herschberger, Whole Life Buying Club, and more, showcasing the work we and FTCLDF members are doing to expand food freedom and small farm opportunities. It was a very exciting evening! I am looking forward to seeing us create an over time raw milk and food freedom map to show the kind of progress we are making across the nation to undo the FDAs insane claims,
““”There is no absolute right to consume or feed children any particular food.” [p. 25]
“There is no ‘deeply rooted’ historical tradition of unfettered access to foods of all kinds.” [p. 26]
“Plaintiffs’ assertion of a ‘fundamental right to their own bodily and physical health, which includes what foods they do and do not choose to consume for themselves and their families’ is similarly unavailing because plaintiffs do not have a fundamental right to obtain any food they wish.” [p. 26]
FDA’s brief goes on to state that “even if such a right did exist, it would not render FDA’s regulations unconstitutional because prohibiting the interstate sale and distribution of unpasteurized milk promotes bodily and physical health.” [p. 27]”
http://farmtoconsumer.org/news/050610–FDA_Response.pdf
Many afterwards said they never realized why we have the broken, highly processed, nutrient devoid food supply we have, how much corporate control and government run amok exists in the food supply and the regulations being promulgated regarding food, and more, and plan to get more involved and active in this area and in supporting our work. The timing is important with our work on the PRIME Act and the roll out of the FSMA.
Ah, now they speak!!! Fascinating….it’s ok for FTCLDF to use this forum, to shill their work in front of the readers that are generated by this controversy, but they are standing on moral high ground, out of the fray? Hmmmm.
Not so fast there buster. You have promoted the WAPF conference and if I read it right, you are having a fundraiser there too. FTCLDF has given no air time to the EDUCATIONAL conference developed by your “dear friend” Ron Schmid with Kaayla and David.
Using niceties, reminding him that you use his product makes you sound really nice and friendly, but does not make what you are doing a nice or friendly thing. We’ve learned that lesson at the hands of Sally Fallon Morell.
Oh, she’s nice alright. Polite and reserved, calm and collected…..but she BITES. I knew a doberman like that once. He’d bite me when his owner’s back was turned, only to adopt an angelic face after. “Who me?”
It’s only David that is bringing these BITES to the foreground, so we all know what’s really going on.
People in other forums are talking about FTCLDF lacking the backbone to support an EDUCATIONAL program put on by their members. Your absence has been noted, or did you think you’d pass under the radar? I couldn’t believe it when someone told me.
Why not promote the conference? Because there is no money in it? OR, as people are saying, because there is money to be lost by taking an action like that? Is Sally that big of a donor? Follow the money folks.
Guaranteed, if you promote that FFNW conference, you too will suffer at the hands of SFM, just like the rest of the folks involved. Come on now, would standing up to SFM be worse than standing up to the FDA?
Aren’t there just too way many people already “in bed” with SFM? To expand on your monkey theme. There were four monkeys in the bed and the little one said, roll over, roll over. So they all rolled over and one fell out.
Roll out of the bed “my friend”. You wish you didn’t have a monkey at the circus, but you do. Your silence is damning. You can’t turn your back on “your friends” and keep faith with this community. Evenhanded treatment is the way to go.
In case you need the url. http://www.ffnw.org They’ve got a good line up. No Sally bashing here, these folks are starting something really special.
AAA,
If you wish to speak with me, please contact our office. For various reasons, including legal, I will not engage with an unknown internet identity.
Per conference promotion, we promote any event that we are treated as a charity partner and whose basic mission supports small farms, food freedom, etc., such as our promotion of Paleo(fx) and similar events that are have designated us as a charity partner.
We do not promote events that we are merely attending as a matter of policy or are merely exhibiting at. You may disagree with that policy, but our policy is perfectly even handed. This was part of the reason they made me ED of FTCLDF, to review and adopt policies and practices across a wide range of areas of operation to ensure we comply with the various rules and regulations that govern NFPs and to ensure we are operating in accordance with our bylaws and mission.
So your claims of anything different are baseless, but sadly, common on the internet.
Indeed, Dr. Ron is a dear friend of mine, as are many of these people. How close is our friendship? With many of these people I have their personal phone numbers and addresses, and some of them call to wish my kids a happy birthday.
Our friendships are something built over many years, and I will not jeopardize them by engaging in the antics so common on the internet, where most people commenting have little information beyond their own biases and opinions to base them on.
Given what I know of the new FFNW, we were invited as an exhibitor, and no more. So our handling of their event is no different than any other event. If that changes, then our promotion of the event may change.
If you desire to speak with me, you can call our office number at any time and they will put you in touch with me.
this struck me as funny, since you are also an unknown entity on this blog FTCLDFED.
Do you speak for yourself or for all FTCLDF? Curious.
Thanks for showing the FFNW the way in! They just have to say they are giving a portion of the proceeds to the FTCLDF and you’ll promote their conference too?
This is most excellent news, and truly a friendly act. Good to know they invited you to exhibit. Makes sense to work together.
No desire to speak in person, whoever you are, but thanks for the offer.
It is pretty clear I am not anonymous, since I am the ED of FTCLDF (FTCLDFED), and am listed on the FTCLDF website/materials/promotional materials as such. Rather than use my name, which does not indicate who I am or my role with FTCLDF, I used what most would consider a rather clear and direct title so people would know who I was.
The only reason I commented is because we were mentioned, and in my view it is better to directly answer pertinent questions then let the imaginations of interneters run wild. At the same time, sadly, some answers will never be enough, and as the Bible also says (since you seem fond of quoting it), at times it is best to walk away when it is clear a person has an agenda rather than a genuine desire to understand.
Again, overall, organizationally we are not involved with, nor for legal and bylaw reasons can we be, this controversy. It is well beyond the scope of our mission, a mission that is vitally important to all people in all real food communities, and that transcends any of the various differences that have chopped up the real food movement more thoroughly than high grade ginsu knives.
Since I am ED, to some extent, I speak for FTCLDF, though I answer to the board, and at times, when I face difficult or uncertain issues, I take these to part or the whole board to seek counsel and input. As a not-for-profit, we also retain a general counsel, who advises us on matters as well and as needed.
I wonder, are you Cathy Raymond, whom stands to financial profit from promoting the new event and foundation?
Because that is one of the biggest issues of anonymity of commentators – their motivations and financial gains and relational ties are obscured by not letting people know exactly who they are. I do appreciate that Dr. Ron, Randy Hartnell and others at least have not hidden their identities (and thus any possible agendas) behind pseudonyms.
I also wonder, are you an FTCLDF member? If you are so concerned, why would you not take a few minutes to call and share your concerns with us directly so that we can have a dialogue about them? Same for these “other internet forums.” One would think, if you and others are so concerned, that taking a few minutes to reach out to us would be the most sensible and integrity based step to take to speak with myself or our president.
We are both generally easy to reach, I am available most of the day today, save when I need to go move firewood in to get ready for the first freeze this Fall, and move some of my wife’s sensitive plants to safety from the slowing dropping temperatures.
Pausing for dramatic effect…………………………………and lunch. But meanwhile, here’s a morsel to chew on.
We cast our votes in a private setting. For good reason.
One might think the FTCLDF would support and uphold a person’s anonymity (right to vote in private!) in a discussion on sensitive topics. No shame in using a nom-de-plume.
“No shame in using a nom-de-plume”
…and therein lies the problem.
That you can act like an ass, from behind an alias, without feeling any shame for having embarrassed yourself.
Amanda, I forgive you this comment absolutely, since you have no idea of who I am, or why I have said these things, in this particular (and purposeful) manner.
I don’t like being called an ass, but you are welcome to express and share your anger, irritation or whatever you are feeling with or at me. I’m glad you wrote, and I take no offense. I’m not bulletproof or fireproof, I’m human too, but I understand anger, and I too have judged without knowing.
Listen, Cathy Raymond… It doesn’t really matter who you are or what your excuses may be. IMO there is no justifiable reason for anyone to attack FTCLDF (or John Moody specifically) whilst cowering behind the security of anonymity. It is a cowardly and dishonest act no matter which way you slice it, and I now have serious doubts as to the purity of motive behind this new org that you’ve been fanatically pushing around here like it’s your job.
Amanda, you’ve made a case for the necessity of anonymity. WAPF has purged, shamed and abandoned its followers. The way they behaved in response to a crisis shows they will eat their young to preserve the power of the head dictocrat.
As an alternative to being masochists, we will use our noms de plume.The WAPF victims have revolted. A new organization has risen from the dust. You need to get over this arm-flailing. Move on with your life.
John Moody can take care of himself –as he has told us about his many achievements, war stories, pregnant wife, and other glories. None of the WAPF defectors has inflicted us with self-aggrandizing stories about their years of volunteering.
It’s shocking that you keep blaming the victim. True WAPF style. How’s that working for you?
I’ve yet to see any victims here, whoever you are.
Cathy – I just want to say that you sound like such a lovely person now that I’ve just read many of your posts and comments on FB (well, except for the one post where you encourage people to cancel their WAPF conference registration and sign-up for FFNW conference *instead*… that was in bad form). Clearly you are not an ass in person, but the “nom-de-plume,” as you call it, unfortunately allows you (and many others) the freedom to step out of character without having to own it, which I know is a temptation that most people can not resist… and that’s a shame because, like I said, you really do sound like such a lovely person.
@ Amanda: You are “acting like an ass from behind an alias”, as far as we know, because you have not given your last name. If you did give it somewhere, I missed it, but the point is all we know about you is Amanda, which may not even be your real first name. Talk about embarrassing yourself……..
Well, “D. Smith,” my last name is “T.” There, now you know. 😉
My first name is Deb. What else do you need to know in order to post your real name and not hide behind an alias? BTW, Smith is my maiden name and I use it as a part of my whole name now. That’s more information than we’re likely to get from you, I’ll bet.
I already have posted my real name. In fact, I’ve been going by my real name all along. It’s Amanda. You don’t have to believe that Amanda is my real name, but it’s not my duty to prove to you that it is. Nor is my name the equivalent of an “alias” just because you don’t recognize me by name as someone you might know. In fact, you don’t know me. I’ve never met any of you before, have never been to any of the WAPF conferences, have never been a chapter leader, nor have I ever worked or otherwise volunteered for GP, WAPF, or any of the other similar organizations. I am just an unknown WAPF member among many others who you’ve also never heard of. Hope that helps… and if not, oh well…
@ Amanda: Fine, but never ever say another word at this blog about people hiding behind their screen names. I don’t know or care if Amanda is your real name, it makes no difference. You’ve proven yourself to be a finger-pointer and nothing more. You belong in life right where you are.
I haven’t said anything about people using an alias here to discuss the issue fairly. However, for one to hide a glaring agenda behind an alias so that they may come here to attack a group of people’s integrity and attempt to guilt trip them into the drama is another story entirely (and you know it). If Sally Fallon came here to attack FFNW under some anonymous and unrecognizable alias you all would be crying foul for the next century. I made one short comment about her series of long winded anonymous attacks, and I did so under my own name, so please… save the lecture.
I tried posting something here earlier and it never showed up, so I’ll give it another try.
Let’s have your last name, Amanda.
To FTCLOFED– I’m afraid you’re backing the wrong horse. You should be backing the whistle-blowers. The health community is small. Now you will forever be remembered as someone who looked away when he saw abuse, who stayed silent when people called out for help and who waited to see who the winning team was before cheering.
Sorry, I won’t be donating this year. If a person can’t take an ethical stand, they don’t get my support.
The issue is, FTCLDF is not backing any horse. This isn’t our race. Indeed, this isn’t a race at all, it is a bitter conflict where people are being hurt. That breaks my heart since many of these people are close to me on all sides of this division.
You all can try and drag us into it, but out BOD and our mission make it clear, even if we wanted to be, we cannot.
You can make all your pontifications anonymously on an internet blog, but did you join me, and Max Kane and others when we violated the interstate ban on raw milk and took it to the footsteps of the FDA? Or when I stood up to the KY HD with the possibility of going to jail and leaving my pregnant wife with three kids? Did you travel to MI and WI for the Hershberger and Baker cases to train local activists and do grass-roots organizing?
I think I may know a good bit more about taking an ethical stand than all the arm chair quarter backs on David’s blog combined.
Really, a lot of the commentators on here need to consider the aspersions they are so quick to throw at people they don’t even know. David, sadly, you have allowed your blog to become little more than a circus in some ways.
Back from lunch feeling refreshed. Pastured Pork gives me super powers. Thank God for our farmers!
I couldn’t stop laughing, and I hope you see the fun in it, but your screen name is an UNFORTUNATE pairing of the acronyms “FTCLDF” with “ED”.
That’s a diagnosis I wouldn’t wish on any man or organization. I am, of course, taking your comment out of context. But, you accused me of being a woman and I either resent or resemble that remark completely! Not a member, at least, not anymore. Sorry to say. I had high hopes.
There is power in kindness, in helping a friend in need, and for looking out for one another. There’s precious little kindness leaning on policies ad nauseum. It’s not attractive, it’s repelling.
That’s why I hear so much happiness and enthusiasm as people talk about this idea of a democratically led organization. I think I’m looking forward to participating in the town hall meeting most of all.
Why don’t leave your policies at home and come? Or better yet, bring them with you and burn them. Sounds like you were a freedom fighter in your younger days. FFNW needs diversity to be it’s best, and you sound, well, how can I put this nicely, diverse.
I can’t imagine Kaayla, as a FTCLDF Board Member was consulted about this “our BOD and our mission make it clear, even if we wanted to be, we cannot.” But, perhaps she was outvoted. Hope she weighs in here about that.
Note: I checked the website and there is no page for board or staff, so your identity is still safe ED.
I’m glad we’ve had this chat, and I think that I’ve been pretty clear about my request, call or no. Give the NNTW equal time in your communications, out of fairness. Last I’ll say on that topic. Daylight is burning and I’ve got other fish to fry.
I’ve enjoyed using my God-given, FFNW supported freedom of expression.
Here is the BOD page:
http://farmtoconsumer.org/board.html
Thanks Matz – did you get to that page from google or the website? I could only find it on google. Weird. Even weirder google FTCLDF Executive Director and you find John Moody (Interim Executive Director), but he’s also the Treasurer of the BOD on the link you shared. Like I said, follow the money. 🙂
I googled: “FTCLDF board”
It’s “slightly” confusing when digging further like you did. It starts to be comical and like an episode of the 1950’s ff game show “What’s my Line?”…
I was treasurer and a member of the BOD. I resigned from the board in November, when they asked me to become ED of the organization. You do know Dr. Ron directly supports our work substantially financially. He and I just spoke on the phone together for about an hour. He has zero concerns about supporting us and plans to continue to do so.
I am off to watch a movie with my wife and kids, and then do farm chores. Enjoy spending your time slandering people who are protecting small farmers and food freedom.
Hi FTCLDFED,
take it from another farmer (and a member of the FTCLDF), this blog (and really, the internet in general) isn’t worth our time when it comes to disagreements. For some reason the written word online loses all solvency in argument and simply antagonizes anyone who disagrees with it, rather than inspiring beneficial contemplation. Your time is better spent with your kids and livestock/crops. Thanks for your work for all of us farmers, keep it up.
This is a well known issue called flaming. Caused by the lack of tone of voice, fascial expression and body language, which few understand constitute circa 90% of communication. Written words are a fraction of our communication, yet they take full precedent online.
As a rule therefore, ANY Disagreement should be discussed by phone, or ideally by video call or in person, because if you have a genuine argument, that look in your eyes, that soft tone of voice and open arms gets lost in translation. I have a two email rule. Any complex matter that takes more than two emails or online interactions should shift to more traditional forms of communication.
too bad you had to end your post with a nasty-gram, ED. You just exposed yourself as not above the fray.
John is absolutely correct, I have long supported the work he, Pete Kennedy and the FTCLDF do, and plan to continue that support in the future. And on reading his post on his need to keep their mission clearly in mind – to help farmers and not become embroiled in a controversy – I regret that I implied that the FTCLDF leadership lacked courage in not taking a stand on the FCLO/RPLO business. That said, I wish that John had not come out so strongly for Sally initially, I think that was a mistake, especially in light of her subsequent frankly irrational behavior. But, let bygones be bygones. I look forward to working together with John and the FTCLDF toward mutual goals in the future.
I don’t have a problem that FTCLDF supports WAPF, advertises their conference or whatever. That is the roots of the organization. I don’t have a problem with FDCLDF adopting a wait an see attitude with a new real food organization. The only problem that I have with John’s comments (and you can find more of his comments under the name “John” on at least one other related article on this site) is that he is asking for folks here to be fair, to investigate before judging, and to present both sides of the story (all very reasonable requests), but I have not seen any similar posts on GPP or WAPF articles, asking them to present both sides of the story, asking them to investigate claims of people being harmed by the product before judging it safe, or asking them to be fair to the other side. Sally has been calling names, actively suppressing information and presenting demonstrably false information in support of GPP. Charging others with having made up their minds ahead of time, while implying a state of neutrality, and yet behaving in this one sided manner seems hypocritical.
Dear Accidental Activist – you are REALLY stretching in your relentless attempts to drag FTCLDF into the WAPF fish oil fray. Executive Director (John) has clearly, rationally, and patiently explained FTCLDF’s position (or non position) which makes perfect sense to 99% of us reading/following this blog. Let it go and spend your time finding other sponsors for your new organization.
As a direct-to-consumer farmer (one of our products is raw milk) I can personally vouch for the many, many hours and significant resources that FTCLDF has devoted to our cause over the past three years trying to get raw milk legalized in Illinois and keep onerous regulations at bay. They even funded the hiring of a lobbying firm in Springfield to call on legislators to make sure they were aware of all the benefits of raw milk.
During all those weekly conference calls and meetings never once did Pete Kennedy or anyone else at FTCLD ask if we were members or for contributions of any kind. They are clearly not motivated by money and all of the good people that devote their time, energy, and money to help keep us farmers out of jail and in business should be applauded and not criticized by anonymous online “activists”.
You will note my real name is used here as I have nothing to hide. I am a former WAPF member as are many of our farm customers, including those from a nearby suburban Chicago chapter that was also “shunned” several years ago for not following the rules. I too am disappointed in how WAPF leadership has handled the FCLO controversy and will not be renewing my membership anytime soon.
However I fully support FTCLDF’s mission, staff, board, and the good work that they do. Please leave them out of the fray.
Cliff, this was my favorite comment of a really long day. But of course it had to be a farmer to make me realize where my heart is on this issue.
The FTCLDF has been, as envisioned, a blessing to farmers. It was founded by Sally Fallon Morell, who still sits on the board as Secretary. Joel Salatin (and others) had the initial idea, but Sally was the person that took action.
And, isn’t Pete Kennedy a Lincoln-esque kind of man? He’s good to the bone.
The individuals that are starting this new organization are part and parcel of the very same FTCLDF you admire so much. Their love, kindness, generosity and compassion for farmers is woven into the very fabric of the FTCLDF.
Dr. Kaayla Daniel is one of the founding board members, she was there from day one guiding the new start up, that was 8 years ago.
Dr. Ron is a generous, loyal donor. He has sent FTCLDF a portion of his website proceeds year after year after year. Did you read he just stepped in to provide a matching donation for Canadian farmer Michael Schmidt for $25,000+? That kind of self-less generosity leaves me speechless.
And, last but not least, David Gumpert, perhaps more than most has helped the FTCLDF by providing a clear and timely view into what’s going on on the farms and court cases, When the rest of us couldn’t be there to support the farmers, David was, spending his own money for travel to all the trials and then reporting back so we were all in the loop. He helped elevate the raw milk conversation, even writing three books on the subject.
I hope these three individuals read your words and take in your appreciation fully for all that they have done to make sure that raw milk farmers in Illinois, like you, got the help they needed when it was needed.
I also hope you and others, including the FTCLDF, support the heart-centered work these three are creating now. They too have been shunned by WAPF and are doing something deeply constructive rather than destructive with their passion, energy and pain – building the Foundation for Nutritional Wisdom, an inclusive, democratic organization. See what they are building. http://www.ffnw.org
I want to be there to root them on. I bet many farmers will too.
Maybe you’d like to come too if you can find a relief milker? I’m sure no one would mind if you brought some liquid gold with you (except the feds of course, darn them).
Ah, the old “I’m neutral” defense. Haven’t heard that since 1929.
Maybe, John, it has become a circus here in some respects. Perhaps I should take some lessons from Sally Fallon Morell in how to stamp out opinions I don’t care for.
I was going to post something earlier when someone made an off-hand remark about how you “run your blog” (I think it was whoever is posting as FTCLDFED, actually) and say “well, at least David G. doesn’t censor us unless there’s a damn good reason to do so”, but I decided it would have been like talking to a cloud, so I just let it go. Some of the comments here lately are cogent, some are just plain antagonizing for the sake of antagonizing, and then there are the totally blammo remarks which leave people scratching their heads. Some are plainly just total disconnect. But now maybe people will be able to identify somewhat why I (personally) avoid facebook like the plague. It is a big gossip machine where almost everything gets misinterpreted (from what I’ve been told by many who have stopped using fb and other social media stuff) and nothing proves it like this sort of thing. Talk about a total unraveling at the seams!
FTCLDFED – Don’t let the hounds drag you into this mess. You can not win with them no matter what you say. They want you to take their side (or else). Exactly the same attitude that they accuse Sally Fallon of. Just ignore it. You are doing the right thing.
FTCLDF(ED),
I hear a man chest-pounding and taking credit for heroism from heroines. Man, talk about armchair QB’s… You “left” your pregnant wife when Women with children-in-arms were organizing and risking their Freedom for the very event(s) you are taking credit for? You are raging on a man that just helped get a significant amount of money to defend a fellow raw-milk activist from Canada??
What is your point? Was it “You” that thought up these events and organized them? Do YOU personally run raw-milk every week across the borders providing much needed nutrient dense foods to people in need?
What is YOUR point?? Are you attacking freedom of speech?
As a newbie to the raw-milk wars, and a veteran to water-wars, I would like to understand your rant so that I can put credit where true credit is due…
My point is “ED,” David Gumpert and the Women that REALLY fight in the trenches could use a little praise instead of belittling.
In closing, what is your point “ED”??
You couldn’t have picked a better parallel example David. However, is it mere shunning or has it reached the level of formal excommunication?
It’s not so much about the WAPF, just as it’s not so much about the Amish church or any institution for that matter. It’s about dogmatic beliefs and the dictatorial tactics used by institution leaders such Ms Fallon to prop them up.
You ask, “Will Sally Fallon Morell’s shunning campaign intimidate other chapter leaders and members to toe the line”?
That would depend on the character of the individual. Such tactics have a tendency to do just the opposite, and often leads to the formation of splinter groups, as is currently being witnessed and has proven to be the case with the Amish church or any church for that matter that uses shunning/excommunication in an attempt to control free thinking people.
I have shunned and been shunned (not in WAPF) so I speak from personal experience. I agree with Ken C that such tactics tend to do the opposite of intent kind of like weed resistant Monsanto, will they now come with a weed resistant pesticide that will inevitably also become what it is: knocked down, made small but bounce back stronger which may be a good thing or not.
Have a good fall
Splinters hurt sharply at first but the eventually heal and are forgotten unless they become infectious
It was shunning when I was removed form the chapter leaders forum, ceased to receive any email updates from the WAPF and my email asking whey I was not getting email updates was ignored. This is excommunication.
Ah Jean, I’m sorry to hear that, after all your VOLUNTEER efforts. Let us know how we can support you through this. I know, it HURTS!
Looking at the FB page of the Santa Cruz chapter of WAPF, I scrolled down through 19 posts to see mention of our conference. In those 19 posts I saw 5 posts by The Complete Patient critical of WAPF and Sally, zero rebuttals, and 2 posts promoting the new foundation. There were several more critical posts before, after scrolling WAY down, I found 1 post with the “official” response from WAPF. There were zero rebuttals to any of the other numerous anti-fclo assertions. So for a representative chapter of any group to be posting and promoting dissension within said group, undermining the credibility and calling into question the integrity of those involved in leadership, why is it not okay for this organization to sever ties? How could you even expect anything different? There is no other action which even makes sense! Furthermore, the chapter leader(s) within this chapter have also publicly been highly critical in other places including other FB pages and on this website. Really David, this action is inappropriate?
I should clarify that several of the negative posts, 2 if I recall correctly, were from Kaayla Daniel, not DG
I didn’t do the kind of analysis of the Santa Cruz chapter’s Facebook page that you did, Maureen. You’d have to ask the chapter leaders directly what their rationale was for the posts they put up, but in the meantime, I would offer this possible interpretation: The chapter’s FB page is regularly updated with information about food and nutrition, including developments in the FCLO controversy. My sense is that WAPF has been pretty quiet over the last few weeks about this controversy, while Kaayla and I have published a few blog posts. The “official” WAPF response came out quite a few weeks ago, so it would naturally be way down in the accumulation of posts–FB arranges those chronologically.
Had WAPF put new info out, my sense is it would have been included. Isn’t it possible that this chapter was simply trying to keep its members up to date on this controversy, no matter what the source? Or, put another way, isn’t it possible this chapter was trying to be open in its communication, and resisting calls from headquarters for censorship on this subject?
Like Sally Fallon Morell, it seems as if you are seeing enemies and conspiracies at every turn, even from among your friends.
I posted Sally’s response and a link to Chris Masterjohn very early on. If there had been new information from the WAPF I would have been happy to post it. For years I had encouraged people to take cod liver oil and facilitated group buys of Green Pasture products. I feel a responsibility to let people know that there have been problems and misrepresentations. However you choose to count them, the majority of posts on the page have had nothing to do with cod liver oil but have covered a variety of health and food freedom issues.
Sally runs WAPF like a Banana Republic dictatorship. She has even said, “things can change when I die.”
The excommunicating of the Santa Cruz chapter, Maureen, is just one more incidence of dictatorial abuse of Sally Wetzel Fallon Morrell. She has a long list of shutting down people who question her authority or the authority of her ideas. Even when supporters suffered health consequences she showed no sign of curiosity or compassion. She refuses to even investigate. She issues gag orders.
Okay, we’ll move along to a group that is smart enough to accept suggestions from the members or at least show interest. RIP, WAPF.
@Maureen
Why not call the chapter leader or email them and talk about it? Why not try to work out the differences instead of just kicking them out? Ask them, what’s going on, how can we help, what do you need from us to support your chapter?
How can you say that “there is no other action which even makes sense”?
There are lots of other actions Sally could have taken that would make sense and that would have encouraged discussion and dialogue.
Several attempts were made, directly and indirectly. It is not accurate that the chapter was just shut down withou warning or attempt to reconcile.
I have not ever seen an agreement that is so like a preemptive gag order for any organization I have participated in. To prohibit any negative remarks or criticism of leadership, sponsors, or exhibitors or advertisers is WAY OVER THE LINE. If criticism is suppressed, then nothing every changes when there are problems and genuine concerns. If there can never be any questions which might be regarded as “negative” regarding sponsors, exhibitors, or advertisers, then how is anyone ever to report problems, ask if anyone else is having the same problems, or to uncover scams when they do exist.
Under this policy, all I have to do is pay WAPF to advertise with them, and they will never allow anyone affiliated with them to say anything negative about me or my company??? I can run whatever scam, engage in whatever dishonesty I choose, as long as I pay them! What a goldmine for anyone who wants to cough up the advertising dollars!
Yeah. The action is inappropriate. Because the operational standards, and gag agreement is inappropriate to begin with! Legitimate organizations do not have gag orders that extend that far out, and they don’t have them even regarding controversies within their own ranks, they deal with those controversies through public discourse when necessary, with confidence that as long as they are acting in good faith, that they need not fear – only those who have something to hide forbid criticism. There is no public discourse allowed here. Sally rebutted, and then told everyone to collectively shut up or get out. FCLO is not the only thing that smells fishy.
Sally Fallon’s history of how to deal with opposition repeats itself again. See this thread of 48 messages in the public Yahoo Group Native Nutrition from 2007:
POLITICS – WAPF becoming Dictocratic?
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/native-nutrition/conversations/topics/92209
This is all ridiculous. It seems people overdosed on FCLO for the most part. If you did that with a pharmaceutical drug would you then try to discredit the drug company? Why don’t you spend your time shaming a company like Monsanto? WAPF is an amazing organization and I plan to support it.
@ Elizabeth Bourget: An astounding lack of comprehension. Simply astounding.
Dave, This latest round of shunning is not something new. Many have been shunned for various reasons. And not only shunned, effectively excommunicated. We know about Dr. Kaayla Daniel, Dr. Schmid, and the latest, the Santa Cruz Chapter. And then there is Paleo, the Breast Feeding controversy, etc. But there are others who could post here and tell us about it if they chose. If you have been around WAPF long enough you notice that. from time to time, certain people who were mainstays, were suddenly working in diminished capacity or just gone. So what kind of behavior incurs this wrath?
You know, this sounds like a long term plan to infiltrate functional organizations which (had) offer(ed) alternatives to the sick, unhealthy, societal, industrial paradigm. After the organization is infiltrated, how simple to discredit them, and by association – anything good that they had done.
You know that when this controversy hits mainstream media – those corporate sock-puppets and propagandists are going to vilify anything associated with WAPF – including raw milk, any study of actually healthy foods or supplements that they may have mentioned, etc.
If people fall for this, it could set the good people back years – but i hope/pray/think/believe that they may be too late. There are too many cracks in the dam for them to plug by touching here and there with a bandaid.
Jean, I have attended two WAPF potlucks, remember you and thank you for providing the community gathering, such a kindness.
This is a truly shocking development. Sally Fallon is clearly out of control.
If a subsidiary of a company published negative articles on the parent company’s product then its CEO must fire the individuals involved. But this is not the real issue. The issue is imo that WAPF(R) should in no way be promoting a specific brand of product outside of paid advertising and exhibit space. Quality can be maintained by disallowing certain exhibitors and ads, such as psychic/energy healers, multi-level juices, or crystal bracelets and necklaces. When cults break up what happens is it splinters, sometimes into other cults with different gurus. If a member does not obey or questions a doctrine then they are scolded or asked to leave. The cult I was in years ago if you walked away or excommunicated you were “marked and avoided”. In other words, cult members would then ignore them since they were “given or gave themselves over to the devil”. It was common that very good people would strangely not be around any more. I am hoping WAPF makes needed changes to continue being a leading nutrition education association. What my wife and I decided was rather be a chapter leader with all of the constraints, we started a very successful WAPF-like group that later we discontinued. In our case we found out it was hard to work with chapter leaders as they tended to be too self-righteous and strictly adhered to WAPF doctrine
You are right Trumped, but a membership organization is not a company. There is the sense of ground up, member led organization. In which case the leaders serve the members and take direction thereof. For leaders to turn around and squash dissent in unconscionable.
Of course it is also possible that wapf is not a memberahip type of legal entity, in which case membership and chapter leaders and all that have no real power. They all were building a kingdom for sally in which they have no place.
Pete: Clearly the leaders of the WAPF do not serve the members, don’t give a whit about them. Bit of a shock for me to realize this. Don’t see how any self-respecting chapter leader would tolerate this level of control; I suppose Sally merely considers them employees of the WAPF and GPP. Orwellian.
I was just drawing an example to show that Sally has the right to terminate and there is a business relationship. Doing a WAPF-like group is the way to go imo
Hopefully they will continue to have their potlucks. There is nothing stopping them from making a new facebook page for a whole foods nutrition group in their area, under a new name. They can also continue to promote Dr. Price’s research. WAPF can make us remove their label, and association with their organization, but they can’t stop us from being whole foods nutrition activists.
David’s post implies that not much happened with Santa Cruz WAPF until the last 2 years. I want to give credit to Willa Keizer, who was the first chapter leader. Besides running her homeopathy practice, raising her children and milking goats, she held monthly potlucks in her home. At a time when live fermented foods were hard to find, she made ferments to distribute to the local group. For this and more, many thanks to Willa!
I find this comedy utterly hillarious. Grown people polemicizing whether an extremely volatile and unstable fatty acid (PUFA) know to oxidize at room temperature in minutes, in this case extracted from rotting, decomposing fish livers, possibly on purpose exposed to direct sunlight or some other vodoo procedures….is rancid???
You have got to be kidding me. What planet am i on?? You people need less blind faith and a lot more chemistry 101 classes. Feeding this crap to children? R U insane???
Yes, this is exactly right. All along there have been extensive discussion about how much care is needed with omega-3 oils, and how it’s necessary to pack them under nitrogen so they don’t oxydize – and yet that all seems to live in another compartment of the brain!
yup. so much to say, so little point anymore since clearly people, BOD members, Foundation members, chapter leaders and such are not being listened to at all. it truly is a shame.
Indeed, it is a tragedy. Astonishing. Sally is hell-bent on destroying the organization she founded and nurtured. I’m certainly finished with it. As much as I love seeing old friends, and hearing outstanding speakers, had I not already paid my money, I wouldn’t be going to Anaheim, but to Boston, in November. I certainly will take care in opening my mouth while there.
Gary while you’re in Anaheim, ask for the minutes of WAPF from the recording secretary for the months covering this controversy. Minutes are a public record and any non-profit is required to make them available to members and the public. Participate in the annual meeting in Anaheim (I assume there’s the membership meeting at the conference), and be heard.
NS: I know there is always a chapter leaders meeting the afternoon prior to the opening of the conference, but I don’t believe they have “annual meetings.” In any case, dissent is verboten. Attendance has been diminishing since Santa Clara, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a pretty small crowd this year. Last year at the FTCLDF benefit dinner at least a third of the tables were empty. Felt a bit like a cavern in there. Sad.
Yes, minutes have to be made available to members of a nonprofit (that should not be a problem for WAPF at the web site, as we as members have a login). For the public on request at the physical location of the nonprofit, – correct me if I am wrong.
Here’s something to think about Gary.
Just alerted to this on FB, the last day to cancel WAPF conference registrations is tomorrow, Oct 17.
You’ve got to do it in writing, and you will pay a $25 reg fee. This is where I found that information
https://www.ptfassociates.com/secure/wisetraditions/2015Registration.htm
You would find a warm welcome at NNTW. http://www.ffnw.org
I’m already a founding member of the FFNW. I find your attacks on the FTCLDF offensive.
You can get a refund it you don’t want to attend the conference. I cancelled for other reasons but I still think there are some excellent speakers that are worth seeing.
Jen: It’s a not a terribly difficult drive for me (although Anaheim is on the freeway from hell), and I want to hear Stephanie Seneff one more time. Also, I long ago made a commitment to fly to Atlanta next week to picket the Centers for Disease Creation and Propagation, so an additional flight to Boston is out of the question. Stopping forced quackery is the only issue that matters to me at this point. In California we’ve only just begun to fight. They’re maiming and killing our children, merely for profit, and the politicians, except for Bill Posey, are too cowardly to make a peep.
Free way, isn’t that a song title from sometime somewhere? Wait isn’t there a c in dance? Not always as it turn out. Enjoy your real milk or
Or am I thinking of a bird other than chicken or cow if I leave here tomorrow slide guitar
lighten up it’s not too late
” Heim is the German and Norwegian equivalent of the English word home. It is a common German and Norwegian suffix in place names (for example Mannheim.) ”
picket, as in fence?
I didn’t know lawyers were allowed to do that. Pardon me for intruding on your verbosity and I don’t mean you Gary just trying to keep an even keel and a lil humor here. Now back to your regularly scheduled milk drinking. And shoot, I’m about to run out of Rositas what should I do
Was Ana Heim a famous from history or is that just a made up name from gold mine days
Oh and one last:the label says Rosita Real Foods TM (not supplement) yum Morruae Oleum wild and raw. Although the fine print does say dietary supplement
I’m sadden by this totalitarian direction that Sally Morelle has taken… My way or the highway.
Leadership comes from taking in and nurturing ideas, issues and giving guidance; not by chopping off heads and with legal ramifications. WAP philosophy is not Sally Morelle’s; it was MrPrice’s, one of learning and guiding and helping. Leading the Cod Liver Oil conflict would have been seen as leadership; not one of dictatorship. Under this type leadership the WAPF is no longer what I believe what Mr Price, and assume most of the loving, kind and generous Chapter Leaders intended how his organization should be directed.
It may be time for a WAPF chapters to reevaluate their involvement with this type of leadership.
I wonder what wonderous thing might grow and develop into if all Chapers discontinued with WAPF under Sally’s leadership and formed a new and better organization based upon Mr Price’s knowledge, and principles?
Sounds something just like what happened 268 years ago right here!
Very nicely said, Uncle M. We welcome all to learn of how David Gumpert, Kaayla Daniel and I are leading the formation of the new, democratic Foundation for Nutritional Wisdom (www.ffnw.org). Our hope is to bring together the Paleo, Primal and Weston Price communities. We welcome your inquiries and input.
And quite a few there are already, in a fledgling organization! Welcoming it indeed is, and all thanks to the three amigos. You should join, too, Uncle M. Just go to the website and sign up. Easy as that.
@ Gary: The only thing I’ve seen when I go to that new site (ffnw.org) is a place to sign up for the dinner & conference. I’ve never seen a way to just “sign up” for a membership without it seeming like I want to also come to MA, which I cannot do (wish I could). Is there a special page for regular sign-ups that I’ve been missing? Is there a blog or a way to communicate?
D. Smith: You can either sign up to come to the conference, or sign up to be able to view the recordings. I did the latter for budgetary reasons. I think Dr. Ron or David G. could shed more light on your question, which seems to be how to sign up just for the FFNW, without being able to view the conference recordings.
Thanks, Gary. It is not easy to get to that ffnw.org site (I use a protected search engine) so I had to go to Dr. Ron’s web page and click on the link he provided, and then it took me to the main page at ffnw. There I was able to locate an RSS feed symbol, so I clicked on that and made it a part of my feeds, then I scrolled down a little way and found a place to make a comment, so I did that. I entered my email etc, so hopefully I will be contacted through email or the RSS feed of any new announcements or developments. I may go back and sign up for the conference recordings. Hopefully I’m only signed up for announcements!
In answer to the Qs about signing up, the main signups are to attend the conference Nov. 21-22 or to access recordings of the conference after it is over. There won’t be live streaming after all–became a bit too complicated and expensive. To register for either the conference or recordings, go to this page: http://ffnw.org/registration/
To sign up to receive ongoing info, just go to the “Contact Us” page (from http://www.ffnw.org) and leave your info there. Thanks.
Ah, thanks David. The Contact Us info is way at the bottom of the page, I was looking for there to be something up at the top! All of those facebook pop-ups (as you scroll down) are annoying. Arg.
David, they should offer memberships for $50 or so soon and offer a bi-monthly paper publication (mailed) as the benefit. WAPF has blown it bigtime from a business perspective in that they publish a huge catalog 4 times a year for probably breakeven-when there is much greater value/power for advertisers and readers to have a monthly pub (with a bimonthly at first perhaps– these only need be 12 pages maybe 16 to start). Just my opinion, but it has been irritating to see that WAPF does not have good business judgement eg. they should have had regional meetings years ago.
I was the very first member of the FTCLDF, but something told me way back then that Sally Fallon and the WAPF were to be avoided, despite having friends associated with them.
Watching the dictator in Fallon become very public tells me why that was a good decision.
First of all, I am grateful to you, David Gumpert for the excellent writing that you do on this blog that in addition to being an oasis of well-articulated intelligent thought on a subject of great importance to all of us, alerts the community of real food activists to critical developments and events that are impacting no less than the future of life on earth, creates a forum for necessary discussions, for the sharing of ongoing education about this enormous subject, and a chance to familiarize ourselves with the viewpoints of the various stakes-holders who participate. This is a huge service and a great gift in itself and I appreciate that you truly allow a multiplicity of views to be shared.
I am sorry and saddened too, that there is so much upheaval going on within the organization of WAPF.
I have been visiting the website of WAPF to acquaint myself with their presentation of this contentious issue. I was willing to see indicators of poor behavior on their part because the issue as described by posters on this blog, and on K. Daniel’s blog, is one of self-serving stonewalling indicative of gross negligence and callous disregard.
That was not what I personally observed. From the WAPF website I derived that there is sincere concern about the veracity of the lab reports, an ongoing, unresolved concern about causation of health problems attributed to the GP product, and an internal investigation that is estimated to require a time period of at least 6 months to adequately evaluate the evidence, complete their own thorough laboratory investigation into the merits of the complaints before issuing conclusions about this matter.
I cannot help but identify with the position WAPF has been put in with one I have experienced with my children as they mature and continue to develop their own identities. I adore them (I hope all parents feel this way about their children) and I allow them free rein to disagree with me and to express their various, not infrequent, frustrations, impatience, and anger with me on the matter of these disagreements. I want them to know that they may always talk to me and I will hear them to the best of my own, sometimes limited ability. This is what I believe is necessary to our mutual growth, improvement and keeps our relationship meaningful, current and valuable. I do not, however, allow them to disrespect me, either directly or to others insofar as I can prevent that. In their own hearts and minds they may not feel particularly respectful of me based on their view of what is occurring between us, and I accept that. I respect their right to their own feelings and their own process. I do not accept being personally disrespected with the consequence that, it is my impression, their esteem for our relationship continues to grow.
This is my view of the reasoning of Sally Fallon-Morell’s use of legal sanctions to make it very clear that while the Santa Cruz organization is free to continue to practice the ideology of WAPF or whatever inspires their beliefs, they may not fly the WAPF flag and disrespect the process that the WAPF board has chosen to address the resolution of this issue. I do not see it as a “fear” campaign meant to intimidate anyone. As a leader and with the agreement of the majority of the board, Mrs.Fallon-Morell must make decisions about what is best for the purposes of WAPF, as a whole. As a leader it is her job NOT to ignore flagrant disrespect or concede to behavior that is divisive where constructive options exist. Disagreement is one thing and public airings of dis-RESPECT are another. Division will occur in any organization, community and/or family but the way a leader handles it will determine whether or not the organization and its greater purpose survive the growth process.
Many on this comments board express strong disagreement with the handling of this matter. Personal attacks are made that attribute base motivations to Mrs. Fallon-Morell and claim that WAPF at her exclusive dictate is ignoring the issue and protecting GP to advance some self-serving agenda (rather than considering that WAPF is demonstrating a value known as Loyalty rather than rushing to premature judgement). The derogatory contentions are not borne out by the evidence currently available and posted on the WAPF site. What are also NOT on the WAPF site are character assassinations or responses to inflammatory and provocative attacks. I also need to state that it is pejorative to describe Mrs. Fallon-Morell with the attribution that Mrs. Fallon-Morell is acting on the basis of her right as “queen of the tribe”. Mrs. Fallon-Morell is the ELECTED LEADER of the group which you claim to value, and she earned that responsibility and title by years of unassailable, documented service to the very ideals that you almost certainly share on the subjects of small farms, local food etc. Your choice of descriptive adjectives seeks to dismiss the basis of her actions to self-serving spite based on a petty power trip. It is a very personal insult to which she does not STOOP to respond to. As someone who admires AND sincerely respects her, I feel compelled to do so on her behalf.
There is a popular misconception that ALL views are “equal” and should be allowed complete and unabridged expression in all venues and that doing so demonstrates appropriate fairness and is the ultimate expression of reason. This is the premise of Mr. McEvoy’s letter where he emphasizes what he calls “the free and open exchange of ideas” etc and so forth. The insistence that a “free and open” exchange is necessarily an undeniable “good” is a cultural meme without reference to reality. Some ideas are mutually exclusive and cannot co-exist. A house divided cannot stand. Freedom is a word that has become curiously detached from its necessary corrollary … RESPONSIBILITY.
The search for truth has been abandoned out of preference for the presumption of entitlement of all ideas to “equal time”
Not all ideas are of equal merit and respect is earned, not owed. (That is why I give my children time to consider whether they actually feel respect for me at those times when we disagree, while I absolutely require that they treat me with courtesy and respect in the meantime). In my experience, maintaining an attitude of respect, even when in disagreement is essential to the preservation of a viable relationship, with pretty much, EVERYONE.
As Dr. Phil McGraw has said “When you choose the action, you choose the consequence” and as I would say, when you choose to voice your opinions you open the door to reactions. Those who agree, those who disagree… any and or all may be right or wrong but the presentation of contradictory opinions, evidence and ideas generates a response of equal magnitude to the degree of the disturbance created. It is not a placid process.
While the comparison to the Amish is a vivid and compelling analogy, I do not see that it applies except for in the sense that WAPF’s legal action was an assertion of a fact that some points of view cannot peacefully or reasonably co-exist and that the Santa Cruz chapter cannot dis-avow the stated position of the board of WAPF and remain a chapter of the WAPF. They cannot logically, publicly take a stance in opposition to that held by their Parent organization and claim to be representative OF that organization. They Fired themselves. They forced WAPF’s hand and now depict themselves as a victim in much the way that Ms. Daniel’s left the board no choice but to release her when she chose to disrespect due process in WAPF’s handling of a contention she presented in a manner intended to “shame” and strong-arm WAPF to handle the problem as she demanded. Ms. Daniel’s showed no respect for the organization of which she was a part when she chose to slander WAPF for not knee-jerking into a reactionary posture of contrition based on allegations she presented without good faith. That is my impression.
No one is demanding that the Santa Cruz faction change their ideology or public positions. Santa Cruz dismissed WAPF and it is always disappointing to find out that we cannot eat our cake and “have it too” but it is disingenuous for Michael McEvoy to declare innocence and the high moral ground when the chapter was using their WAPF status to try to strong-arm WAPF into conceding to its detractors. That is not high minded and innocent behavior.
As for the “shunning” analogy, the Amish are an actual large and culturally unique family and “shunning”, (excommunication) severs the “shunned” from the entire community of others to whom their attachment is very much the foundation of their lives.
Individuating oneself as an Amish person from the very values and traditions of your family is a far deeper separation in terms of loss.
The Santa Cruz chapter will no doubt retain the majority of its constituents and activities albeit under a different name with a different “flag” if it suits them. Meanwhile, some of the members will re-examine their relationship to the SC group and their impressions of the issue and probably break away. All of these things are the price of having a point of view and being committed to it. Change and upheaval accompany dissension. For some, at some times, it is worth the cost and for others at all times, it is not and people make their choices accordingly. There are ways to disagree which honor the parties involved and while they may take time, the outcome which is gradual, has a good chance of being experienced as a true victory for all concerned; a victory to turn back the forces opposed to the continuing availability of real and nutritive food – which cannot occur when humanity is not in possession of the knowledge of what constitutes actual life regenerating nutrition itself. What values and priorities is this community to live by in order to preserve and advance that knowledge and action base? Just because, to this point, WAPF has evolved into the largest organization dedicated to a dissemination of truth on this question, does not mean that it cannot be destroyed by a maelstrom of (disorganized attacks?) from within and without.
Laurie: Sally is not the elected leader. WAPF has no elections, and no decision-making membership meetings. Sally is, like Jean-Claude Duvalier, Saddam Hussein, Hafez Assad, and many more, the self-appointed President for Life. Seems to me that the Santa Cruz folks posted every communique issued from headquarters, and members of the chapter posted, as folks are wont to do, whatever they felt like. They were excommunicated for allowing their members to exercise their First Amendment (and human) rights, for not properly kissing the hem, for not properly groveling before our very own diet dictocrat. God help us if there are many more apologists for bad behavior, as Sally has repeatedly shown. A vibrant, powerful, socially-useful organization needs more people like the Santa Cruz folks, not fewer. It isn’t worth the bother to respond to the rest of what you’ve written, so, like Joy is no doubt doing right now, I’m instead going to allow myself a hearty belly laugh!
Oh well then I was wrong on the technicality but not on the point because if Sally is the founder, everything I said regarding leadership is still correct. I guess you will have a lot to laugh about considering how ridiculous your comparisons to “leaders” are. What is confusing is why so many of you feel so entitled to bellow and moan when your fine energy could be spent building your new organization that will be so much more enlightened.
They were “excommunicated” not for posting David’s articles, as well as Kayla’s, but for repeatedly posting great negativity elsewhere against Sally, the foundation, and our values. They used very harsh words and attacked Sally’s character and much more, both anonymously and by name. Much was said, and not any of it positive or objective *at all*. And, they were politely asked to change the tone and take down their promotion of the new organization. Many of us early on posted David’s articles, Kaayla’s, as well as the critiques and opposing evidence. But we did so objectively and with balance, not disdain. That was not the case with them. None of us wished for the chapter to close or for the CL’s to resign (or be let go), but there was no other choice.
By the way, it seems the merits and safety of fclo is no longer even part of this discussion but indeed was dropped weeks ago. Instead of discussing the differences in test results and understanding what they mean, this has become a witch hunt. Does that not seem strange to anyone other than me?
Maureen,
You are either confused or intentionally attempting to mislead. Where are these anonymous posts that you attribute to us? Yes, the (former) Santa Cruz WAPF Facebook has linked to this blog and Kaayla’s website. Yes, I have under my own name, “liked” Facebook posts that challenge the WAPF official line on FCLO as approved by Sally. I have not “used harsh words and attacked Sally’s character”, either anonymously or under my own name anywhere on the internet.
For years I recommended GP FCLO as the best available cod liver oil. MIchael and I and other SC volunteers passed out dozens, perhaps hundreds, of the WAPF flyers titled “Cod Liver Oil Our Number One Superfood”. I am heartsick to think that information I gave out in good faith may have caused adverse health effects. I was shocked to read the PPNF article describing the type of clo Dr. Price actually used. For me, the “merits and safety of fclo” are exactly the point of this discussion.
Jean, it is of course fair of you to respond. I regret not communicating with you prior to now as I should have, and I hope you can forgive me that
I understand your concern about fclo. For me, our own family ‘s experience with it has been profoundly positive and yet I do not discount that for others it may not be good. One man’s food is another’s poison of course. Dosage is or was the biggest factor I believe in any harm. Chris’ and others assessments of the testing, coupled with the tests that Sally personally had done, have answered the questions brought forth; I do not believe that the fclo is the dangerous, rancid product which Kaayla asserts ,nor do I see any truth to the many charges against Sally, the board, and the relationship with Dave Wetzel.
That said, I have read many very negative comments in these regards posted by one anonymous commenter here in response to David’s numerous articles. I believe for various reasons that in all likelihood, you were that poster and that you likely also were sending David our confidential emails. If you did not do these things, if you honestly did not make derogatory and inflammatory statements here or share our list mails, then say so here. However, I doubt that you can do so.
Just as you had previously done, many hundreds of us continue to put the WAPF message out there, to help countless individuals and families worldwide. We sacrifice much, put in many long hours and days; this will not stop just because a few have chosen to despise and compromise the message, including Sally. I sincerely wish you could continue to do the same, it deeply grieves me to see the defamation and perpetuation of misinformation and opinions masquerading as fact.
Maureen, please have your fellow FCLO lovers put their affairs in order.
to ANTPB (and now the purge begins) ANOTHER anonymous poster – Okay – that is just psycho and an outright threat. David… If you know the identity of the above “poster” I strongly encourage you to report them to any authority that might remind them of the laws against death threats and those who make them. That post is PSYCHOPATHIC. Even if it is an empty threat there is no excuse for making it.
@ Laurie: I think you’ve misinterpreted what that person meant with his/her message, but then it wouldn’t be the first time things have gotten misconstrued here. You might want to read/rethink that message a few more times and see if you come up with a different meaning. IMO, he/she meant that if Maureen is still recommending people take FCLO they might not be doing themselves a good deed and may even be harming themselves. But, as I said, that’s just my way of thinking about that comment.
D. Smith – Thanks for pointing that out. Obviously it was not a foregone conclusion that the comment might be someone’s idea of a joke.
Maureen,
You are going to have to look elsewhere amongst the 500-plus chapter leaders on the chapter leader’s Yahoo group for your “leaker”. It wasn’t me who shared the posts from the CL group with David Gumpert. It is a moot point anyway, since at the time the posts were allegedly “leaked”, the group was still publicly searchable on Onibasu.
The first private email on GP FCLO and WAPF I sent to David Gumpert was this past week regarding the Santa Cruz group’s removal. An archive search of the past 8 years might possibly turn up some totally unmemorable emails from me to him on topics not related in any way to WAPF, FCLO or GP.
I have followed The Complete Patient for many years (thanks, David, for your good work) and have on rare occasions posted anonymously on completely different topics, not FCLO, not WAPF, not GP. Before my removal, I did post links from The Complete Patient on FCLO to the chapter leaders’ group. These, if I recall correctly, seemed to upset people but the topic needed to be noticed and dealt with.
The only anonymous post on the topic of GP FCLO or WAPF that I have ever posted on this blog is the folowing, admittedly while very frustrated, under the alias “not gagged”, on September 15:
“Chapter leaders have been told to come to this blog and post in support of the official WAPF view. We have been told not to “like” David Gumpert’s or Kaayla Daniels posts on any Facebook pages or any other posts “disparaging” to the WAPF or FCLO on any Facebook pages. We have been told if we do not agree with the official stance–Fukushima fish is the same as Atlantic cod, Chris Masterjohn says everything is fine with FCLO, etc–we should resign.”
Later that day I copied on this blog under my own name the last post I had made to the chapter leaders group before you removed me from that forum.
@ Jean Harrah: You said ” I am heartsick to think that information I gave out in good faith may have caused adverse health effects.” Yep, this is exactly why WAPF should never have been making product recommendations or providing endorsements to ANY company. I would have felt heartsick, just like you, had I been promoting that information and then find out it might have been erroneous. But then not being able to try to correct the mistake because someone at WAPF might not like being corrected? Holy socks. That’s just beyond wrong.
@ Maureen: You said: ” . . . they were politely asked to change the tone and take down their promotion of the new organization.” Is this still America? Do we no longer have the First Amendment rights? See, this is a problem when we have digital communication, rather than face to face actual group meetings. It is, and will remain, and he said/she said type of situation.
One more thing. Just because people in the higher echelons may not absolutely adore every word being said, that doesn’t mean what’s being said isn’t true.
The safety and merits of FCLO is 100% still the issue, which is why it was reported to the FDA for investigation. Once FDA finally gets around to investigating this, Green Pastures is done. It’s coming.
WOW… unbelievable.
Nobody here can say anything about Sally being “dictatorial” anymore now that this crew has employed FED GOV to strong arm their will into effect. Hypocrites, the lot of em.
Amanda…..I believe the FDA was alerted by people who got sick and it happened way before this blog discussion began to take place here. The FDA can be sued if they don’t investigate a problem so they have to take action. No one really wants this but if WAPF and GP cannot conduct themselves in a responsible manner this is what happens.
Well I hope those people will be happy with the repercussions that this will have on the entire health supplement industry. At least they’ll have pharmaceuticals to fall back on, right? We know that’ll never get shut down. smh
Karen, No REALLY? The FDA? With all it has done for protecting the people from oh, say… aspertame? MSG? Fluoride? Oh wait… I know… those are really GOOD for people! I am sure they will protect us from our squalid little attempt to manage our own real food movement. Well, whoever did this must be VERY PROUD INDEED, that’s why there are so many anonymous posters on this board. So many high-minded courageous people working hard for the greatest good!!!
@ Laurie: You’re just as anonymous as others posting here with non-human or one-word names. You and Amanda like to spout off and then you do the same thing. High-minded and courageous from behind the wall of anonymity, both of you. Doesn’t exactly give you room to talk, does it?
In truth, we’re all anonymous to some degree because we’re all behind a wall, so to speak, so let’s just drop that part of your accusatory conversations.
The FDA is the scourge of our time, but that’s who we have to work with when things like this arise. I don’t like it any better than you do, but if you have another suggestion let us know. After all, the way the world works is that we’ve been taught this idea of “see something say something” no matter what the concern, and then someone from some AGENCY gets a new job looking into it. People are not allowed to have doubts or concerns about anything anymore, much less voice them, because somewhere is lurking a tattletale who reports back to these agencies. It would be my guess that no one from here “turned” anyone in. This ain’t the only place where the subject is being discussed.
Deb, if that were true – first names being just as anonymous as a random word or phrase alias – then why wouldn’t these anonymous commentators simply go by their first names on here? I think we all know why not. Because their agendas would be too easily exposed if they did. That’s why Cathy didn’t go by her first name, and she isn’t even a chapter leader or a WAPF member from what I can tell. But she did have a bit of a conflicting interest to hide, didn’t she? I wonder, what motives are these other anons hiding?
FDA Knows,
I suspect most long-time readers of this blog have long ago concluded that certain staff of the FDA can be counted in as part of the readership here. Mark McAfee has made statements to that effect. So do you speak with authority in saying FCLO has been reported to the FDA for investigation? Or is it possible that the FDA is just out to pick the low-hanging fruit on their own initiative?
God, Gary, I am so glad you said “God help us if there are many more apologists for bad behavior” What a breath of fresh air! .
What’s the matter, Joy? I thought you were getting a barrel of laughs out of this.
Laurie – WOW that was a BRILLIANT assessment of what’s been going on at the heart of this controversy. Seriously nobody has summed it up more succinctly than you just have, and I could not agree more. Thank you
One thing: I don’t think that Sally Fallon was elected, per se, BUT she is the founder of the WAPF so it only makes sense that she would be the president of her own foundation.
Laurie and Amanda, thank you! Amongst the many comments finally, a few that are not filled with hatred, vindictiveness, an ignorance. No, Sally is not elected. But decisions regarding the foundation are voted upon by the board. The foundation was not founded as a democracy as so all of these negative comments are made in ignorance of that. The reasons for the “firing” of the SC chapter leaders have everything to do with not just the multiplicity of negative postings (from here mainly), but the many, many communications which the CL’s made here and elsewhere. They clearly were undermining the foundation’s leadership and not standing for its values. It goes beyond the chapter’s FB page and extends into many arenas in which the leaders made direct statements against Sally and the foundation.
It really irritates me that so many here are making ridiculous statements about Sally’s integrity, goals, leadership, and ulterior motives. All this from people who, for the most part, do not know her *at all*, and thus have no basis to make this judgement But are instead just following what a few are saying. And then there are others, particularly Cathy/Accidental Activist who have great bitterness due to perceived wrong. I personally suffered due to this same perception of wrong-doing of which I was totally innocent. But vindictive people will say and do terrible things including character assassination. Thankfully there are far more of us who know better.
We are not experiencing great losses in conference numbers from this thankfully, and are hoping that still more will choose to come to the most excellent of nutritional conferences in the nation, if not the world. Anaheim California next month!
As one who stands on the older more proven diets, and ones that work, it is a shame to see infighting where we need to stand together. I HAVE NOT posted as an alias. My name is correct here and my business stands for cooperation and transparency – Health Alkemy. It is so nice to see the pot lucks continue and other another name – who cares? Sally is the one with the problem and let her stew in her own shit.
Wow Craig Lane. Over the top vulgar and really conveys the impression of a sour grape stewing in his own exudate.
“Sally is the one with the problem and let her stew in her own shit.”
Gross.
So, chapter leaders are not allowed to voice an opinion because they would be violating an agreement that they made with WAPF, but if they choose to use an alias then they are lambasted by those who want to pick them out of the crowd and give them the boot? Your people either have a voice, or they do not, WAPF chose to NOT allow them the freedom to speak therefore you get aliases being used. The Santa Cruz Chapter is being targeted because they were proud enough to use their name and speak their minds, they should be applauded for not acquiescing to the WAPF demands. Pick your poison. Let us all stop pretending that this is all one sided, both sides have stooped, both sides have thrown mud, and both I am sure have said things that they may regret (or at least they probably should). But at the end of the day this is a mess, and I appreciate this blog for giving people the forum for them to use their voices. This will not sweep under the rug, chapter leaders and member have recommended this questionable product to their friends and family. some predisposed with heart conditions, some with existing heart conditions, and some with questionable health. Recommended dosages have been removed from the WAPF site without any fan fare or notice, most likely to be changed, and I am assuming that the rave reviews and recommendation from Pope and SF to take increased doses will now stop. But this begs to question, what about the people not aware of these changes, ones that are not following this craziness, ones that read the dosage a long time ago and are not aware they may need to review their daily protocol? What about the family members or friends that these chapter leaders may have made recommendations to, whose health has deteriorated, or may have been lost in one case, and those chapter leaders have to live with that question of possibly be the very person who added to their health issues despite good intentions? Does WAPF expect more loyalty than they are asking us to give our family and friends? Yes, people are irate, people are stooping to name calling, but these are people with very serious concerns. The entire situation still has me sick to my stomach and the deflection tactics are not being ignored.
You said it yourself… “they would be VIOLATING AN AGREEMENT that THEY made with WAPF”. Your comment is a declaration of a lack of integrity. You do not seem to understand that if you sign an agreement to conduct yourself in a certain way in the event of a disagreement you are committing yourself to a course of action in exchange for a benefit your association with the WAPF has provided you. Do you think that you only have to honor your side of that agreement when it suits you? You use the premise of high minded concern for consequences to other people for breaking that agreement and claim moral superiority before demonstrating any over the organization it appears that you want to destroy. At this point, that is the motive most clearly indicated by the choice of action. I hear or see no willingness to allow WAPF to complete its own investigation. I see no understanding that until they have satisfied their own process to arrive at conclusive evidence they are honor bound to respect the relationship they have had to date with GP. I just cannot understand any honorable reason for this public tantrum. If you believe that WAPF is so disgraced by their handling of this matter then why do you CARE about their acting on their stated policy to sever the relationship you refuse to abide by the agreed upon terms of? I cannot help but think that some of you will not admit that there may be a problem with some people using Cod Liver Oil itself, because it does not suit all people, and some of you want to profit from working with a different vendor however without WAPF endorsement, your profits may not be what you aspire to? Why else put so much effort into trying to discredit WAPF when it doesn’t roll over to this campaign? And saying that the “mud-slinging” has been on both sides??? I haven’t seen evidence of mud-slinging from WAPF (though I am willing to look if someone wants to direct me to the source and evidence) however WHO STARTED THIS WHOLE “STINKING” ISSUE IN THIS WHOLE “STINKING” SPIRIT? Wasn’t it Ms. Daniels and wasn’t she trying to create this mess to attempt a takeover or bringdown of Sally F Morrell by moving in by stealth with her conclusions and/or taking them to the public before giving WAPF adequate opportunity to evaluate the material she presented? And it just continues with the aggressors posing as the victims in the acrimonious media they generate. You want to have a loud public forum for your opinions in an effort to slander or strong-arm your opposition, yet you are not willing to experience any consequences for this hostile attack. Your reasoning appears to be that WAPF should not defend itself because a group of people who want to dictate how WAPF should conduct itself are declaring WAPF to hold an indefensible position in the court of their own opinion.
Oh dear Lord Laurie, get ahold of yourself lady. When you wrote that comment that begins with ” First of all , I am grateful to you David Gumpert for blah, blah what ever,” I felt badly for you, I could tell you were trying so hard to be polite and nice and all, but I could not, no matter how hard I tried finish the comment, It seemed endless and I felt badly that I could not finish it, because I could see you were really trying and then I skipped down to Gary’s comment and was so glad he said ” God Help us from many more apologists of bad behavior” And you know why? Because what I could take in from your long trying hard to be nice comment, well it felt to me like it was an abused child trying to justify, or make pretty her abusers abuse to her. And my heart ached for you. But Wow, from nice and polite….to the above comment, well that makes sense psychologically I guess, underneath all that stuff about everything is lovely and calm at Weston Price is a volcano of rage and frankly psychosis. Doctor Daniels is a heroine in my eyes, And your violent accusations, well they do not make any sense to me. Why would she want to waste time to bring down Sally or Green Pastures, why would she waste her energy on that? You know what has been on the tip of my mind since this whole thing began? The disconnectedness and psychotic behavior of the Weston Price loyalists. It is scary, you guys are plain scary! And not making a lot of sense, good old common sense as Randy, the Vital Choice guy says. And again the disconnectedness, this is about the question of safety of people’s health and Weston Price does not seem to care a bit about that, this is way more than it is good for some people and not for others,. Oh Lady I hope you have a good therapist, I mean that in the kindest way. Cause I can see that deep down you are really a good person.
How cute! We’re getting free mental diagnoses from Joy the armchair psychologist. lol
“Joy” – Your insincerity and condescension speak volumes about you. Go therapize yourself… and I mean that in the kindest way…
“Joy” Your insincerity and condescension speak volumes about you. i suggest that you therapize yourself… and I mean that in the KINDEST way.
@ Joy: Liked your opening sentence!! I feel the same way every time I see a post from either Laurie or Amanda. ;-o)
D. Smith, So glad to know some one else gets fed up too. . What would upset people do with out being able to capitalize?
D. Smith, I thought I had just posted a comment to you, but cannot find it, do not think it was too out of line, Just said I really appreciated knowing some one else felt the way I do and thanks for letting me know. Actually that is not exactly what I said, cannot remember now, but if a similar comment shows up, some place else, you will understand.
Laurie- The agreement, the contract with the WAPF and chapter leaders does not forbid them from speaking against the Foundation. As no contract can remove your legal rights, but it does forbid the chapter leaders from speaking against the Foundation while representing themselves as a chapter leader. As many chapter leaders are known by their names the only way around that is to use an alias. Perhaps more would feel comfortable using their real names had a legal threat not been made? Or maybe they would not even have to speak out, had the Foundation listened to their concerns and taken a interactive approach to soothing the worries of their members.
It sounds like integrity to you is standing by a contract-do or die, and that is incredibly loyal and I am sure that those in your life are better for it. I however, will always put the health and safety of my family and friends ahead of any contract, and will speak up when I think something is wrong. That is where my loyalties lie, because they have proven themselves worthy of my loyalty. If a person, unknown to me thinks that I lack integrity because of that then by all means, it would be a label I embrace.
I also agree with your definition that integrity means standing up for what you believe is right, even if it means paying a price. That is why the comparison to shunning seems unreasonable to me. As long as you are doing what you sincerely believe is right, it does not ultimately matter what the “opposition” says or does because your actions are in alignment with your highest values.
Also, I apologize to you that I went overboard in my critical tone in the post you are commenting on. Your response is measured and gracious.
I believe most people on this board mean well including those of us who cannot abide others of us. Even they might agree that at the end of the day it is the principles that matter – personalities much less so.
For what it’s worth or not, I would like to add an unsolicited opinion for David G, Kaalya D., and Dr. Ron Scmid… I think the name “the three amigos” can be taken as a compliment and a fine business name, when and if the smoke clears and the rancor can be left behind. Sally F.M. may proved to be 100% wrong in all of this but she may have inadvertently acknowledged something good.
I’d like to alert everyone to a very interesting take on the FCLO situation, from a (former) WAPF insider, better known to people here as Cheeseslave. In brief, she agrees with much of what I have posted, but she provides historical insights I wasn’t aware of.
http://www.cheeseslave.com/my-take-on-the-fclowapf-scandal/
Boy did I love reading the Cheeseslave’s report. How life affirming it is and I love the way she writes, so down to earth, real and warm and I loved how she said that her integrity is everything to her. I always loved her blog and am glad she is back and hearing an insiders experience at Weston Price was moving and enlightening. So glad she is going to be a founding member too of the new organization. PPPF? did I print that right? I am only getting the down load, cannot attend, but still very grateful to be a part of it! Yipee!!! And forward we will go!!!
Love the Cheeseslave. Great writer and humanitarian. Only fitting that she be a founding member of PPPF! The three amigos have attracted some first class people. Good work, you amigos!
Thank you
Dear And now…
I believe we’ve all learned how to shame by leaders, teachers, classmates, parents, media and spouses. Shame resiliency is everyone’s personal responsibility, but perhaps we could make it a little easier for someone to get up after a knock out punch.
Ann Marie helped launch and support a large number of very popular bloggers. Her unifying idea was brilliant and helpful to many…bloggers and their readers alike! She created Real Food Media at a time when WAPF was struggling with a hard to use website. That and the hard-to-keep current quarterly print journal and annual conference were their main communication tools.
Those bloggers stepped into the void and helped people through the information overload associated with dramatic diet changes. Sally’s book, while fascinating, was overwhelming to many. Who wasn’t intimidated by a recipe that you had to start 2 weeks beforehand, find suppliers and new equipment for? ARGH!
Everyone was struggling, and WAPF did not adequately consider the learner’s needs. Chapter leaders did their best with monthly meetings. You know who came out roaring all over the internet?
What I’d call the virtual chapter leaders…the real food media bloggers.
Because VGN had a difficult ending, the bloggers may not all be appreciative of AnnMarie, but me, as a learner…I can absolutely appreciate that spark that Ann Marie created.
Have you seen the explosion of Kombucha in the marketplace? Bone broth is a hot topic too. Folks think twice before vaccinating. That, I think, is due in part to the early organization of these incredible bloggers into a network.
Personally, I learned alot more from Cheeseslave and the other bloggers in Real Food Media like TheHealthyHomeEconomist, NourishedKitchen, FoodRenegade KellytheKitchenKop Mommypotomus and more…than I ever did from the WAPF website, journal or conference. These ladies ROCKED the internet. They have unbelievable Alexa ratings, just check.
I’d keep company with Ann Marie Michaels ANYTIME!
Cathy Raymond, thanks so much for your positive comments about Cheeseslave! I had no idea she had accomplished all those things and you are right, trying to learn how to use nourishing foods in the beginning was overwhelming and it did seem so ponderous and exhausting to start with the Weston Price suggestions, I did find my way though some of the blogs you mentioned. And Ron is right about judging people with our knowing all the facts and I am glad David said she was a lightening rod. Oh I do wish her well!
Hi Joy – Nice name, that!
Thanks for you sharing. I am totally inspired by the work of Brene’ Brown. If you haven’t already, her gazillion viewed TED talks will Change.Your.Life.
https://youtu.be/iCvmsMzlF7o
https://youtu.be/psN1DORYYV0
The Brave & Brokenhearted Manifesto
“When we deny our stories, they define us.
When we run from struggle, we are never free.
So we turn toward truth and look it in the eye.
We will not be characters in our stories.
Not villains, not victims, not even heroes.
We are the authors of our lives.
We write our own daring endings.
We craft love from heartbreak.
Compassion from shame.
Grace from disappointment.
Courage from failure.
Showing up is our power.
Story is our way home. Truth is our song.
We are the brave and brokenhearted.
We are rising strong.”
— Brené Brown
Cathy, I so appreciate that poem and no t have not heard of Brene’ Brown, but I will look her up soon and I am so glad you responded on this blog Ann Marie! I do love the way you write as I said before. Listen, I certainly never meant to use this blog as research, but I am an actress and working on a terribly difficult Ibsen play, about a character who has spent the last 16 years trying to live with public shame and dishonor and what you said gave me greater illumination into my character. And bless you, Anne Marie, for understanding why Sally has shut down. It is a sad tale though because I do worry about all those people still taking chances with their health by continuing to take FCLO simply because she could not bring herself to warn them. I can now understand why she had to shut down and dig her heels in but… well hopefully somehow those still taking the FCLO will take heed on their own and stop using it!
Thank you, Cathy
As I said in my post about the crash of VGN, the company needed to die because something bigger is coming! I don’t know what it is yet (what the ending is that I will write)… but I know it will be awesome!
But even though I lost a ton of money and lost a lot of friends, and I suffered the worst pain of my life from the public shaming, I would do it all again if I had to because of the gifts I got. I am so grateful that I learned so much from the bloggers and from what ORGANIZATION of a team can create. We will take those lessons forward.
I really love that you called us “virtual chapter leaders”. What a wonderful way to put it. Thank you.
Oops I can’t edit the comment – I meant to link to the post I wrote in case people didn’t read it:
http://www.cheeseslave.com/what-i-learned-building-and-losing-a-million-dollar-company-how-failure-set-me-free/
@ Ann Marie Michaels: I’m trying to follow this story to its conclusion. I used to read at Cheeseslave (a few years ago) until all of this hoopla with your business woes started and then I tuned out because I didn’t need anyone else’s trouble in my life. However, the link you posted tells what you learned from your “building and losing” experience, but is there some information about what the other side is saying or how they turned out? I’m not on facebook so I simply don’t follow the gossipy junk there, nor do I encourage anyone else to do it. But I am curious as to how (or if?) this ended for others.
I can appreciate the views you expressed above about being a “business owner”, as I’m one myself. I can only imagine how it is to feel shamed and exposed, but it can’t have felt very good, so you have my sympathy on that part. I’m just trying to catch up and find out where the whole thing ended. Would you be willing to share any of that information here? If not, I understand.
Joy: How right you are. A fine piece of work which explains the history of this mess that the WAPF has become. She mentions a little cod liver oil book (by Archie Welch, and based on historical research) that was in our bag for the 2012 Santa Clara conference. I still have it, and just reread it. Sally clearly never read the thing before approving its issue, for he clearly shows that the rancid oil as a medicinal had many problems, and was eventually abandoned after Peter Joachim Moller developed a process for extracting a high-quality medical grade oil from fresh cod livers (this is the process Rosita uses). He also makes the point that oil from other species than Gadus morhua were not considered to have medicinal properties! I hope the true believers are not still giving the rancid stuff to their babies. A very dangerous thing, indeed, to promote this stuff as healthful.
Gary, so good to hear this again, about the book by Archie Welch and your take on it. I read about it yesterday when I was reading Anne Marie’s blog but kinda lost track of it in all the other things I was learning.
Gary, I was just in the middle of doing dishes and I remembered what you said about giving the rancid stuff to babies! I know it tears me up! This is a crime, promoting this stuff is a crime! I know I wrote a emotional comment about it before saying it was murder. I was remembering two comments on Kaayla’s blog. They were grown children who’s parents had died of heart trouble at an earlier age then expected or predicted and one was a guy who said, his mother died of heart failure and her doctor had expected her to live for years more and in the Mom’s fridge were half a dozen bottles of FCLO. And the other was a woman who’s mother had died and she was so upset about how she had insisted the whole family take FCLO, that she could not as yet even go there that FCLO may have caused her mother’s early death. I wish there was some way people could know what we here are discovering and at least stop giving it to babies and children. I mean in a sense, it is like vaccinations, only no one yet knows just how the rancidness will effect the babies and children, and it will be misdiagnosed as something else anyway. It is hard for me to take all the kinda ” acting out” as they used to say, of the Weston Price loyalists, when I frankly feel human lives and health are at stake, their own included. It is such a horridly sad situation.
Now I am glad for all the people who never followed Weston Price, At least they are safe from this
trouble. And the PPPF will certainly address this problem and Kaayla is compiling cases of people who feel they were made ill from FCLO, And as word gets around eventually those who know nothing of this controversy will eventually hear, and so maybe I am over reacting after all.
What damage FLCO causes hopefully takes a long time and hopefully most people will stop taking it before it is too late for them! A lot of hopefullys huh? Ok back to the dishes.
David , and others, perhaps you are unaware of Anne Marie Michael’s complete personal and professional history. She used to be very active in WAPF circles and networked with hundreds of media bloggers. She operated her business as a pyramid scheme where she would promise the moon to people but would fail to pay until each next promotion so that she could hopefully pay anything from the previous promotion. She burned a lot of good people in the process, good people that are not prone to gossip, and this is reflected in the fact that a very large Facebook group called Blogger’s Alliance arose from this to continue networking together and as a support group for people that had been victimized by Anne Marie’s business practices. This is also further validated by the fact that Anne Marie was also involved in investigations by both the FCC and the IRS, both spurred by her own unscrupulous business practices. She is highly manipulative, never owned accountability for her own actions and is now attempting to build again out of the ashes from a fire of her own making. You might want to check around with other sources besides Anne Marie for a more thorough, accurate and complete description of the business practices of the Cheese Slave. All that glitters is not gold and politics make for strange bedfellows. While WAPF’s management of the FCLO issue may be arguably questionable, and the FFNW may be building new partnerships in earnest we all ought to be careful of who we choose to affiliate with or else we may find that our energies will be similarly manipulated into the previous house of fire that was lit by Anne Marie’s own hand. She herself would and has never admitted to her own failings in her previous business relationships. Such is the way of the narcissist. I advise everyone to ask around and do their own research with regards to Anne Marie with as much scrutiny as has been put on David Wetzell and FCLO, that is, to look for and weigh information evenly both within and without the original source. I thank you for your consideration. It would be a shame to see such a young new organization full of potential trip and stumble so catastrophically at the starting line.
Strange Bedfellow, I am well aware of Ann Marie Michaels’ history. I wrote a long blog post last year about the rise and fall of Village Green Network. There was a fair amount of comment, some of it pretty heated. No question, Ann Marie has been a lightning rod. I personally believe she’s learned a lot from her experiences, and hopefully going forward she will be a positive influence as she rebuilds her business and personal life.
http://davidgumpert.com/of-golden-geese-and-herding-cats-life-and-death-of-a-foodie-blogging-network
Strange Bedfellow, are you certain you know enough about all the details of the controversial events you cite to accurately make such strong judgments? I don’t. It’s hard enough sometimes to fully understand even a story you have lived yourself. Understanding what happened in the past between other people is nearly impossible. There are always two or more sides. Unless one sits on the jury and truly understands all the evidence, I think it is prudent to withhold judgement. I’m thankful every day for all of the people in my life who at some time gave me forgiveness. Thanks, everyone, for all the second chances. My hope is that our new foundation will be a community where we share our experience, strengths and hopes, celebrating our common ground and learning from our differences.
A positive influence whose 2nd article since returning to the surface publicly defames someone for no reason?
“John Moody’s 2011 attack on Tim Ferris’s book, The 4-Hour Body was especially bizarre.”
Here is part of the actual review,
“Tim Ferriss. For anyone familiar with his book, The Four-Hour Workweek (4HWW), or his blog and other writings, you know firsthand with whom you are dealing: a complete nonconformist who achieves successes and results that defy explanation, who bucks modern trends and assumptions at will, and who knows how to entrance his audience. You are also dealing with someone whose behavior, by his own admission, borders on obsessive-compulsive.
Tim’s newest book, The Four-Hour Body (4HB), continues his trademark maverick style. The book even garnered widespread mainstream media attention, including Yahoo, television’s “The View” and Dr. Oz, and many other outlets. These toned down snippets and summaries of the book are far more palatable to the average American than some of the stuff inside, surely a wise selling point to get average folk interested in Ferriss’ single-minded, all-encompassing passion to become “super-human.”
In terms of content, the book contains a wide variety of useful information on health and wellness. Note also that the book is very large (592 pages) and heavy. You could lose a little excess weight just working your way through it. His coverage of cold and thermal load (page 122), glucose and blood sugar, kettlebells and other weight-loss and strength training tools is broad, well explained, fascinating, and easily applied by the average reader. Ferriss’ gift of discarding the dross and finding the gold is evident, as readers of 4HWW already know and appreciate. His concept of the “minimum effective dose,” introduced at the book’s onset and applied throughout, is long overdue in a world that prides itself on more as better, rather than recognizing that better is better.”
Makes one go hmm….
Now, I will toss it out and say that many of the book reviews were unnecessarily harsh/personal and unhelpful, as was picking fights with the paleo peeps and others… gosh, makes for a head bang session to see it in action and the silliness of it… but funny that one review that is clearly neither an attack nor shaming gets singled out… hmm…. strange bedfellows indeed…
Raul, I’m glad you pointed out Ann Marie’s awkward reference to John Moody’s book review as an “attack” as I myself found her (mis)characterization especially bizarre considering that his review is chock full of compliments as you’ve just demonstrated.
Thank you Raul for pointing out another inaccuracy in this discussion. And agreed on some of the book reviews but, in my opinion, not many. The paleo question however, well, I think many of us do wish to embrace the paleo movement and teach, teach, teach where clarifications, caveats and improvements can be made.
Raul,
You just cherry-picked all the good parts of the review and left out all the bad stuff Moody wrote.
You said, “one review that is clearly neither an attack nor shaming”…
Moody’s review is most definitely an attack on Ferris’ book. I mean, for one, it’s a THUMBS DOWN book review.
Here are the negative, attacking, shaming parts you left out:
“In terms of nutrition and food, however, Ferriss loses sight of the gold.”
“The book is an unmitigated disaster from a WAPF perspective.”
“This utilitarian view of food is both extreme and extremely disturbing. It also appears very out of balance with Ferriss’ general principle of enjoying life to the fullest, and thus he has become trapped by his own obsession.”
“While Ferriss’ diet may be very effective for short and moderate term physical goals, the savvy reader is left to wonder what effect it may have on long term health, especially the health of children born to prospective parents adhering to a diet devoid of nutrient-dense foods and occasionally filled with tons of absolute trash.”
“Also, as a warning to readers, his chapters on human sexuality are very explicit, and thus some will want to avoid them or the book completely and this is why they go unmentioned in this review. Final verdict: thumbs down.”
See more at: http://www.westonaprice.org/book-reviews/the-four-hour-body-by-timothy-ferris/#sthash.M5WxSXux.dpuf
So, anything less than 100% praise is considered “attacking” or “shaming”…?
Since when did criticism become so taboo?
You mean I provided balance to your attack on John Moody that you left out of your blog post, which shows he didn’t attack the Ferriss guy at all, but pointed out the good and bad parts of the book. BTW, I also don’t get how most of the above are an “attack.” Can you show how any of these don’t represent what the book actually says, or how any are a personal attack on Ferriss? Or are you just making stuff up to move your narrative along?
BTW, pretty sure a number of people have said that WAPF needs a two thumbs system for book reviews, more like Siskel and Ebert or something.
Many in the WAPF community have been embarrassed about the thumbs up/down reviews and have asked for changes.
Some of the book reviews appear to cross over from education to propaganda. The book reviews were my least favorite section in the journal, especially when Sally took two pages to slam Rob Wolf’s bestselling Paleo Solution published in 2010. Ouch!
Thumbs down designation also meant that the chapters couldn’t invite those authors to present at chapter meetings or sell their books. It had negative consequences besides influencing journal readership.
Ann Marie – I agree that some of the language used is shaming (and sensationalist) in character, as if the writers were trying to impress the audience or shame the author.
Who’s heart didn’t go out to Nina Planck or Cate Shanahan, when they got a thumbs down? Ouch!! I remember, Sandrine Love was brave enough to recommend one of their books for her NOC Book Club to read.
You and I learned from (challenging!) personal experience, that focusing on an external outcome is not the way to go in communications. It’s a bit like the difference between fast food and real food. Real communication/writing nourishes, in a way similar to how real food does.
Sharing from the heart gets a thumbs up in my view. Why not have two reviewers, like Siskel and Ebbert. I enjoyed their balanced give and take.
Does anyone else but me think that Sally’s own book, the much beloved “Nourishing Traditions”, would get a thumbs down?
Why? Lard is an important traditional nutrient-dense fat, high in Vitamin D and prized by Island, Asian, Latin, Eastern Europe communities and it is only mentioned in passing in a book devoted to traditional foods. I think that blood sausage also got the boot, in respect, I suppose, for her co-author Mary Enig’s religious prohibitions.
I feel for all the pork farmers who can’t turn to Sally’s tome to inspire their customers. Is there a pork section? Don’t recall. In addition, some of the recipes are well, not so delicious. Not sure they were tested thoroughly ala Julia Childs cookbooks. Hard to forget the face of Paleo’s Sean Croxton, after he tasted the chicken liver pate recipe he had demo’d. “Sally Fallon can keep that recipe.” Check 7:46
We can find something to complain/pick on, and miss the beauty of the whole.
Thanks for the heads up Strange Bedfellow, I started to read David’s blog post about Anne Marie and you are right it is a good idea to find out the positive and negative qualities ,as much as possible, of the people taking part in the new organizations. Lots of different view points to weigh and consider.
Hi, Strange Bedfellow
I don’t know who you are but I am Ann Marie Michaels.
How do you know my “complete personal and professional history”? Again, I don’t know who you are but from reading your post, it doesn’t sound like you know me personally or that you know anything about the business I ran for the past several years. I’m guessing you are sharing what you learned that you heard from other people who gossiped about me online.
If you want to know the true story, please read the post I wrote about the failure of my business:
http://www.cheeseslave.com/what-i-learned-building-and-losing-a-million-dollar-company-how-failure-set-me-free/
In the post, you will read the full story of the investigation with the FTC (not FCC). That happened because a number of our VGN bloggers were not disclosing per FTC regulations as we directed them to. We were able to show that we had in fact told them to do so and were cleared of all charges as a result.
People can say whatever they want about others online. It doesn’t make it true. I think it’s very important for all of us to be very careful about the things we say about others online. As I talk about in my post, public shaming hurts everyone. I hope it never happens to you.
You are welcome to contact me and send any questions you have to me at annmarie @ villagegreennetwork dot com. Or go ahead and ask away on here.
I want to say one more thing about this comment from Strange Bedfellow.
It’s really hard to put yourself out there and try to do something good in the world.
It’s hard to do what Dr. Kaayla Daniel did and do the research to investigate product that she thought was hurting people.
It’s hard to do what Dr. Ron did and stop selling the FCLO after he realized that it almost killed him.
It’s hard to do what David Gumpert did and cover a very contentious and heated story when it’s easier just to stay silent.
It was hard for me to run a business and take risks and it was hard to fail and it was hard to be publicly shamed by the people I tried to help.
It’s easy to post anonymously online, criticizing others and questioning their motives and repeating gossip you’ve read. In fact, interestingly enough, I think this is why Sally Fallon Morell and so many of us — she is not alone in this — find it infinitely easier to shut down discussion and squelch questions and inquiry.
Putting yourself out there to be questioned by others, having to listen to the ugly things people say about you, it’s not fun for anyone. And we are all human.
But letting people talk about you and even say bad things about you, and then responding to it, that’s the only way for everyone to be heard. And only when we can have real discussion can we have an organization that is healthy and that will grow.
So I can see why Sally doesn’t want people talking. Because it hurts when people talk about you.
You hurt my feelings when you said I am “manipulative” and a “narcissist”. But if you knew me, you would know that is not true.
Please let’s not call each other names and repeat second-hand gossip that we can’t substantiate. I know how much it hurts and that is why I refuse to do it.
Strange Bedfellow,
At least Ann Marie is not hiding behind a pseudonym.
You had better be prepared to identify yourself and who and what you are affiliated with if you want people take your statement seriously.
Hmm… I sense a bit of a double-standard going on here.
Apparently it is OK to insult and gossip about Sally Fallon (and other WAPF people) ad nauseum from behind an alias, but it is NOT OK to be similarly critical of anyone in the PFFF camp from behind an alias. How interesting…
Strange Bedfellow,
If our words are not helping or building people up, what use are our words? Our words are only used for destruction if we are not using our words to help people and to bring them up. I’m sure all of us here have made plenty of mistakes in our own pasts due to lack of knowledge and understanding. I don’t know much about Ann Marie’s past, yet what I do know is that all of us here have made plenty of mistakes. All of us here are capable of failing, falling, and making mistakes because none of us here know everything with complete understanding yet.
When you are at the lowest point in your life, it is at that lowest point that you will know those who are awakened to truly value you for you and who truly love you for you. I’m sure Ann Marie had learned through experience what a true friendship is when she went through one of her toughest years in her life over a year ago. A true friend is there for you whether you are at the top or at your lowest point in life. Ann Marie may have lost a business model due to lack of knowledge and understanding in certain areas, yet she has gained greater understanding of what a real friendship is, a greater understanding of what love is, a greater self esteem, and also gained experience in business among other valuable lessons.
Life here on earth is a journey with many things to learn along the way. May we no longer tear each other apart and condemn each other simply because we have fallen along the way. Life is filled with falls, yet life is also filled with triumphs and victories as well. There is never a real victory without a trial or even a fall. Who has the greater testimony and victory?: The one who has never fallen before; or the one who has fallen many times, yet continues to get back up again and again? The knowledge of love, compassion, and understanding for ourselves and others is only gained when we ourselves have been on the ground with pain and tears.
“Never look down on someone unless you’re helping them up,” Jesse Jackson.
I’ve been away a couple of days to clear my RPLO-muddled brain, and to prepare to fly to Atlanta tomorrow for some hell-raisin’ Friday at the Centers for Disease Creation and Propagation, but I’ve been doing some musing and pondering. Dictators surround themselves with toadys and sycophants. Sometimes the sycophants express greater rage when her pronouncements are challenged than does the dictator herself. Thus, the capitalized rant so well characterized by Joy. A source of much amusement for this old codger. Keep it up, sycophants! It’s great fun.
Well, one things for sure… if people like Laurie and myself weren’t here to challenge you all this “forum” would be nothing more than a self-congratulating echo chamber.
Indeed Amanda, That’s why it is so important to nurture an environment of free speech and critical thinking via websites such as TCP. Be thankful!
As to the double standard of online anonymity what you’re saying is understandable. However as I stated earlier, “Even though online anonymity may not be my cup of tea…I get it”. That being said, if someone wants others to take their comment seriously, especially when they make strong statements such as the one made by Strange Bedfellow, then they should nave the decency to identify themselves. And that goes for both sides.
“…if someone wants others to take their comment seriously, especially when they make strong statements such as the one made by Strange Bedfellow, then they should nave the decency to identify themselves. And that goes for both sides.”
I totally agree, Ken. Of course, when I pointed this out here a couple days ago I got lectured by a few people, including D. Smith, who told me “never ever say another word at this blog about people hiding behind their screen names” …double-standard indeed.
I also agree that *responsible* free speech and critical thinking is important. On our local WAPF chapter page we had a totally free dialog going about the whole FCLO controversy, and our page was not shut down nor was our CL scolded for it (despite the fact that she was defensive of Kaayla). Could be because our discussion was not all one-sided against WAPF, but that’s just a wild guess.
@ Amanda: Then why haven’t you been able to bring yourself to post with your full name? You are a hypocrit of the first degree.
You know very well that you are taking that statement of mine (the one you quoted above) completely out of context. I said that at the time because YOU continually hide your identity. Yes, that certainly is a double-standard. As long as you continue to hide behind a one-word name, you can be as bold as you want, isn’t that right?
If you don’t like this “echo chamber” you can always go find a new place to perch and make your comments to someone who cares what you think.
D. Smith, I remember exactly what you said and why you said it. I now do not think this so called Amanda has anything to do with Weston Price, oh I won’t even bother to go into why, you have already figured it out if you have read David’s great news on Sally getting to sell raw milk.
Amanda a ghostly shade. I am going to be rehearsing and learning lines for a while and will not be able to come to the blog often, Anyway I just wanted to say that I appreciate and like your style!!!
Deb, we are on a first name basis and no more. I am not going to give you my last name just because you demand it, nor have I demanded, or otherwise suggested, that anyone else here should post their last name. So no, I am not holding myself to a different standard.
I’m not demanding it, you were demanding it of others. If you weren’t asking people to post their last names, what did you mean by people who were posting anonymously – like you are?
Yes. You. Did.
But enough of this. I’m off this board. Don’t need this damn aggravation.
Deb, you know exactly what I meant, because I stated exactly what I meant in the first place, and I have since had to clarify it for you several times over now. Many instances can be found where YOU conflate first names with aliases, but you won’t find that in any of my comments.
Here’s what I actually said:
“Deb, if that were true – first names being just as anonymous as a random word or phrase alias – then why wouldn’t these anonymous commentators simply go by their first names on here? I think we all know why not. Because their agendas would be too easily exposed if they did.”
Good to hear that you are finally done aggravating me about this.
D. Smith, please don’t leave. We need your voice of sanity here. Don’t let the bad drive away the good. If you want to take a break from all the FCLO aggravation, though, that’s understandable, especially since aren’t a user.
Lynn, don’t worry. I doubt that Deb is leaving for good. She just wanted to make a quick exit before having to backup her accusation.
D Smith, it is not worth the aggravation to put up with double talk and dishonesty and no accountability, and plain meaness of spirit, I am supposed to be working on lines and went to my email and found I was still getting message about comments which I thought I had disabled and saw your comment and want to thank you for your support and tell you I am glad you left for your sake.
Who wants to put up with mean fluff, God I hope Amanda does not have children, Adults like her can be quite cruel and crazy making to small kids. Oh god,just realized she is the classic definition of a narcissist, double standards, lack of empathy, Oh well, as a friend of mine once said about an actress who was terrible ” I have never known her not to stink up the stage” Stink away Amanda, it will give Gary a good laugh ! Stink away! D. Smith, hope we meet up on another blog site some day. Thanks again for being so sane! PS speaking of sane, just watched The Cheeseslave’s interview with Kaayla Daniels and it was wonderful and had great clarity and hard nosed honesty, Now on to making sure I am not getting any more comment messages till I finish my acting work. Best Wishes !!!
Not sure if anyone has posted the link to today’s video interview with Kaayla with Ann Marie https://t.co/jBqflGW4rZ
Thanks, Augie. I watched it last night, and it did give me better insight into Kaayla’s thought process through all of this. It would be nice if somebody would do a similar interview with Sally and some (or all) of the other board members so that we can get all sides of the story, but I kind of doubt that Ann Marie will be doing that.
I did find it interesting that, during the interview, they accuse WAPF people of “hero worship” and then in the next breath Ann Marie is praising Kaayla as a “hero” …kind of reminds me of that saying: “Meet the new boss; same as the old boss.”
No that would not happen Amanda, Ann Marie was shunned over a year ago. But @david gumpert should try to find 3 or 4 WAPF conference goers to report their perspective on how the FCLO controversy is affecting the conference and the folks manning the GP stall— just how Mr. Wetzel is handling all of this. This would make a good article. When Heros fall, worshippers commonly seek a replacement.
Pendulum swinging? Tin-foil hat time, folks.
“Pendulum swinging? Tin-foil hat time, folks.”
What are you talking about, Gary?
Amanda: If you watch the Cheeseslave interview with Kaayla Daniel it appears, in the early part of the interview, that Sally uses the same sort of science for the GP products that the CDC uses to determine that vaccines are safe and effective-that of pendulum swing (for the energy potential or some such thing). Didn’t know this before. A bit strange, don’tcha think?
Gary – Oh, yeah, that did sound quite strange. Then again, I don’t know anything about that practice as I had never heard of it before now either.
:”Joy” From your ad nauseum references to yourself as an actress, it comes as no surprise that you also consider yourself the last word on narcissism. Such a kiss-up self-serving phoney forming little mutual admiration clubs and defeating the whole point of debate.There is no substance to your posts, just high school slam book networking to reduce the tone to a popularity contest. When I read the content of the little self-congratulatory round table’s comments I cherish those negative thumbs. What a busy, useless un-individuated little lot you are. And I am not referring to the classy people who do not play your little sorority games.
I thank the people who have constructive criticism to offer me about logical inconsistencies or misunderstandings they thoughtfully observe in a comment. But from the beginning, all (that is ALL) of your posts are personal attacks or simpering kiss ups to anyone on the side that’s “winning” or references to your self-important work, impersonating people of emotional depth.
There. You can either have a field day pumping up the chorus of righteous indignation or go through your pretense of having better things to do with your time as you prepare to stink up some stage or another. Not so nice coming back your way, is it Joy?
Actually you are pretty funny. Thoughtful comments! People may be dying eventually with the FCLO and you want help with inconsistencies? And discussions? Self serving, that is funny, what the heck could I possible think I can get out of sucking up here? I do gush, but I really mean it. I am terrible at kissing ass, unfortunately. The only time I have kissed ass is at a survival job cause my son and I would have been out on the street if I did not do so, and even then my kissing ass was really just being polite, instead of walking out. Thanks for reading all my posts, that is kind of a compliment, This is a hill of beans here and you are such an easy target. And I notice you do not pick on Anne Marie, or Dr Ron or David Gumpert, and I am sorry I am laughing so hard, cause simpering is one of my favorite words and I swear I thought of that word when I would start to read one of your comments to David Gumpert and you would say something like “your wonderful, beautiful organization” If I did not know better I would say you are hedging your bets and want to pick what you consider the winning team. I did over gush when I posted on the blog thing about Sally being allowed to sell milk because I felt really badly that the first comment was from Amanda and it was a criticism, why? This was good news for Sally, and I thought she is all into Weston Price and she has no clue what a huge deal this is to all the raw milk people who all worked with Sally? Just plain mean and belittling, but I did feel badly I had not paid much attention in the past about the fight for the right to sell raw milk. Look I am 72 and have no ambition to move up the new ladder in the new organization, nor the time, well I can do little things for the new organization, but I also write plays and direct them and at my age, one wants to do the things that one deeply loves as much as possible. but I do care very much about healthy food, and I do care very much about people not being warned about the possible dangers of using FCLO, and I do appreciate people who feel that way too, it is only natural and human. And I do have more compassion for you after watching the video last night of Ann Marie and Kathy, How demeaning it must be to be over at Weston Price. So of course you would think I am self serving. And as far as the high school thing, God I cannot stop giggling, well thanks for the compliment, but How you can think that up because several people agreed with me or I with them, is wild! Wow! And who is congratulating themselves here, I sure aint, And what is it that people congratulate themselves about ? And who cares, please do not answer that question, I really do not want to know. Hill of beans, hill of beans. Oh boy am I relieved that Anne Marie made these videos, more people will know and stop using the FCLO. Why are you not spouting off about how safe FCLO is if you truly believe it? Why do you come here, oh right for the classy discussions.
But as my high school buddy Gary says “keep coming toadies” The comic relief is wonderful.
For God sakes I do hope YOU are not still taking that FCLO swill, see I cannot help it I even worry about your and Amanda’s health! Well off to cheerleading practice!
Joy – I nearly died reading your last comment. Very little tends to shock me anymore these days, but I find it appalling that someone in their SEVENTIES would be carrying on with such immature facetiousness as you’ve been doing here. I mean, granted, I’ve made some snarky comments myself that I’m not particularly proud of… However… I am LESS THAN HALF YOUR AGE. What’s your excuse, Joy??
Oh, and by the way, you should be just thrilled to know that I am unable to have children (and no it has nothing to do with FCLO). Good to know that you revel in the misfortune of others.
Speaking of terrible actresses…
There’s something tribal going on for sure. WAPF is antithetical to the AgriBusiness GMO cartel and somebody–using divide and conquer strategies [sunni/shite, white/black, etc.] –is snuffing the organization out. Fallon should be commented for her pioneering work and leadership–but the organization has outgrown her individual control [501-3C with 600 chapters and 14,000]–time for a reorganization–while keeping the organization and Dr. Price’s spirit alive.
to Church, I believe what you meant to say is that Sally Fallon should be COMPLIMENTED for her pioneering work and leadership. My impression is that it has become the campaign of this board to oust Sally Fallon whether via grievances or “reasonableness” or whatever. The first attempt was made from within by a trusted board member who chose to do an end run around Sally Fallon, it would appear, in the interest of ousting her from within. I believe that person’s intention and unrelenting goal IS to replace Sally Fallon by whatever means available. I could be wrong however I am evaluating from the standpoint of “by their works, you shall know them”. Thus far I see a graceless campaign of factionalizing, insulting directly and by innuendo, ganging up, and projecting the desired outcome as if it is a high minded suggestion. If that is meant to be a Thank You for all that Sally Fallon has achieved for all of us who care about real food, it is a paltry offering. Now if the Three Amigos go forward to build on what has been accomplished by the WAPF, and surpass it with their own organization, then more power to them. From this board it appears they are more preoccupied with posing as the victim of WAPF (which is certainly not perfect, but will certainly reap whatever it sows, ultimately), and claiming entitlement to control of WAPF’s decision-making process for themselves.
If that is not a hostile take-over attempt, what is?
I believe Church meant to say COMMENDED, not complimented, nor commented (sic).
I also believe Church was advocating for a change in organizational structure, not that Sally necessarily be deposed. Surely there is some happy medium that would give the membership a voice without throwing Sally totally out.
I don’t think that this group will be “throwing Sally out” because I don’t believe that option exists within the WAPF organizational structure, hence all of the wailing and moaning. While the idea of “democracy” always sounds good, the real thing is rarely implemented. A sensible objection to “democracy” is that it can easily degenerate into a majority of uninformed people imposing their priorities on a smaller but better informed subset of the population. In this situation WAPF has an organizational structure which does not share power. The Three Amigos plan to do a better job with their organization, and hopefully they will prove the virtues of democracy. The odds are good because they are starting out as three people equally sharing power and open to all reasonable suggestions. I look forward to the many achievements of their egalitarian group though I think it will really distinguish itself when it has too much to do creating the next best thing and not concerning itself further with WAPF. .
Thank you for your comments, Laurie. I do think the new foundation is on to the next best thing. Speaking for myself, my concern is for the membership of the WAPF, and I am glad I have helped inform the members about the issues I have become aware of. I cannot help but be concerned about fourteen thousand people and their children in an organization I supported strongly for fifteen years. It is obvious that there is much for all of us to be concerned about.
Laurie,
I believe it is possible to change the WAPF organizational structure, if the board wanted it, or if Sally herself thought it would be for the better.
Lynn.M,
Yes, I am sure you are right so evidently the board and Sally Fallon are not persuaded by the opposition, probably because of the way it was all initiated by an end run attempted by a former board member. My impression is that WAPF stated that time was needed for WAPF to conduct their own thorough investigation. They were not persuaded by the would-be “fait accomplit” presented to them by the former board member, which WAPF representatives (on their website) claim had laboratory names redacted and essentially lacked the necessary transparency to be unquestionably credible. My impression is that at least one member of the opposition to WAPF’s position on FCLO and GP, is more interested in bringing WAPF down whether from inside or out, and this is why WAPF is solidly non-negotiable with when and how the final disposition of issues with FCLO and GP will occur.
Again, with some gracious exceptions, the gratitude for all WAPF has done to date is paltry around here.
WAPF may well be the most powerful single reason that the war on dietary fat accusing it as the cause of heart disease, has finally been “officially” declared as null and void. The wonderful work of Sally Fallon and Dr. Mary Enig could reasonably be said to constitute the single greatest factor in this victory. Undoubtedly WAPF has powerful enemies who would use any ruse, trick, or gambit to neutralize an organization which has exposed their criminal endangerment of human health and restored the highest level of human knowledge about nutrition to common access. The enemies of this knowledge work incessantly with their foundation funds, their political lackeys, their media prostitutes to return all of humanity to the dark ages in every area of human endeavor. At least in the former dark ages the soil was still chemical free and mineral rich and the people knew better than to eat and drink plastic. I am not even a member of WAPF. I don’t know Sally Fallon personally, have never spoken to her, or any of the players in this debacle. I just feel a deep gratitude for so much that she has gotten right and the hard work of every one, including those of you who have devoted yourselves sincerely to the higher cause of protecting and transmitting this invaluable knowledge to our children’s children’s children and beyond.
Oh Laurie, if only I could see you face to face and beg you to say the same things to me you said in the above comments!!!! I do not believe a word of your comments.
I am concerned about your comments about the children, however, they make it
sound perfectly safe for parents to go on feeding their children the rancid fake cod oil. And there are too many reports of very serious reactions to that bilge. I see our children’s children saying things like ” Thank God for Dr. Kaayla Danials who had the guts and integrity to try and stop people damaging themselves with the snake oil, called FCLO. ” I just do not believe the whistle blowers in this drama did it to bring down the house of Weston Price. My heart breaks when I hear of all they went through and how they suffered financially as well. It was simply to save people’s lives. The play ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE, I mentioned before in a comment to Kerrie. It is about a man who knew that the town’s hot springs would poison people and the town mayor and crew crucified him because he tried to tell people, the town did not want to lose income from the tourist trade. Hooray for Dr. Daniels and Ron, and David G. and Anne Marie, and Cathy Raymond and Annie Dru and Steve Tallent Hooray for the P3s. who welcome everybody to the table in a few days. Hope you get a chance to attend or become a founding member! Much real love to you, and still hope you are not taking that snake oil!
And yet when I have anything to say…it is never ever addressed to you. I speak to sentient beings.
Gosh, you better use that heading then “Sentient beings only” I thought anyone could read anyone’s comments. But that will not stop me for commenting on your writing, Guess I could head my comments for sentimental beings, or seminal beings or even Seminole beings, being part American Indian you know. Carry on!
Oh my God Laurie, your comments still make me howl with laughter. Glad I am not defending a woman married to a man who has used the conceit of
energy healing to sexually harass women….
she knew full well what he was doing, and is still trying to prove she was right about FCLO. I cannot imagine anything less interesting to the 3Ps than posing of victims of WAPF or wanting control of WAPF”s decision making process! The people speaking up about the dangers of FCLO are all saying they themselves should have not just blindly followed
Sally, but investigated the product’s safety themselves, or which is even sadder, just used common sense when David W was so evasive about where he got his, so called Cod, ha ha, and how he processed it, Oh he did give vague and varied answers but as Kayyla Daniels and others have put it, smoke and mirrors, nothing really added up and the stuff stunk and tasted bad, all kinds of red flags.
Go to Cheeseslave’s. blog and read her ten reasons why FCLO is rancid. I can see why people would want to honor Sally, after she steps down, or I could see till the sexual abuse which she knew about,
came out. I cannot abide a woman who aids in sexual misconduct, and worse,
to other women, really a bad, bad thing!
Sarah Pope are you listening, I am dying to know if you and that woman who was Annie Dru’s chapter leader did confront Sally ….and what was the outcome of that? Were you both given the cold shoulder and denial? Guess we will never know.
Meanwhile aint we lucky to have the 3Ps and hopefully be able to hitch our, now check things out for ourselves, wagon to the 3Ps star and get even healthier and happier and feel free-er on the
journey! Onward and upward says Me! Oh and the beauty is, u can not attack my character no more, ha, ha, ha!
There is never a need to attack your character. All you have to do is start your usual howling (with laughter, you joyful thing) and proceed to prove all my points.
Oh, just noticed this, and may I say Dear Laurie, there is never, never a need to attack your character either, just reading you comments proves all my hilarious and somber points,
Your text stands alone as shining example of who you truly are. I look forward more than you will ever know to your next comment, as do my friends, never stop them coming please.
Laurie, I’m indeed very thankful for what Sally Fallon has done for the Weston A. Price Foundation. The shunning and getting rid of people from the board simply because of a disagreement of a certain product seems to me to be a very excessive action. Not every person on the Weston A. Price Foundation board completely agrees with each other regarding certain nutrition standpoints anyway. Sure, same principles of whole foods. Yet, for example, some believe a lower carb diet is necessary for certain people while others believe that a low carb diet is not beneficial for a lot of people. Why the uproar over a disagreement in a product? There are plenty of other products recommended that people can choose from. It does seem excessive to me that friendships are lost and people being thrown off the board over a product.
Erica: Agreed. It was never appropriate for the WAPF to heavily promote GP products the way they have. Many of us who should know better trusted them, and some have suffered. The destruction of long-standing friendships and hardening of hearts is to be mourned. The inevitable shrinking of the WAPF began two or three years ago, and appears to be accelerating. But the farming branch, the FTCLDF, I will continue to support because it is too important to let wither.
Thanks Gary. I think there is still hope for the WAPF if these important issues are resolved, and the shunning and voting people off the board if they do not agree with a certain product ceases.
Erika, I appreciate your lovely comments, they are like cool sweet rain on the heat generated here. I have noticed myself that two people can say the exact same thing and one will get huge positive ratings and people like Ann Marie and Cathy Raymond and David G. and even Annie Dru, if am remembering right and others get negative ratings. And they will get tons of negative ratings and in a very short space of time too. Or people are trained that when a certain commenter makes a comment, it is all system’s go to give negative reviews I remember some one attacking me and saying that it gave them great delight to keep pushing the negative thing over and over again on what I had said, it leads me to believe that some people have lots of accounts maybe ? And can give lots of negative reviews to another person at the same time? I liked very much how you expressed your views on Weston Price Foundation, it is only the truth. I do not understand how people can fault that and others with many positive reviews have said the same thing. Alas I only have one vote but I always vote positive for you. I personally took my bad reviews as a positive thing. I know my heart is clear and in the right place, though I must say when I began to comment here I was a little shocked and people’s need to jump on me. And I was only expressing my strong and clear feelings and boy did I get sneered at, and the sad thing was I got a bit intimidated, and became sneery in my own defense for a while, but just lately I think I am aware that some of the biggest attackers were probably hired hands and just doing their job.
if I were coming to this blog for the first time, I would read the comments with the most bad reviews, just out of curiosity and I would say to myself “Well, some of this is deserved, but lots of the comments are great, this is like Supernan’s bizzaro world. You know my therapist is following what is going on here, I mean I tell her about it briefly every week and you should see her nostrils flare when I talk about people still giving FCLO to BABIES, She is a mom of 4, and I almost have to say to her “Ok, I need to talk about something else now” But she is good and senses it before I say anything, how ever last week I was talking about the attackers and upholders on the different blogs saying that everything is swell at Weston Price, and the excuses these upholders were using, that everything is the whistle blowers fault for and boy did her nostrils flare about the sexual bad stuff to women and she said flat out, “Yep blame the vicim” But she did say to me ” Joy it is about the money, people afraid of losing income” And you know, that has been mentioned, but for some reason it slipped my mind a long time ago, I thought that people were defending the status quo for, well maybe some of them were hired to do that job, but I thought that the rest were just terrified that they would lose dear old WP. I do not believe WP will go down in flames, nor do I or anyone else seem to want that. I personally will never trust the current board or president again, but I do not see it disappearing. And as you said everyone who took the FLCO is taking the blame for trusting too much. Good people, such really good people are these whistle blowers and others, people just trying to do the right thing. It does seem strange to get negative reviews for wanting to help mankind and save lives. Bizzaro World indeed. I wonder if the paid ones get more money if they put in 10 bad reviews on some one who is deemed threatening at the same time. Oh well we are all in this together as you say and even the paid ones, if there are any, do not know for sure, but even the supporters of WP is right and every one else is wrong will hopefully be influenced by your comments and approach the commenters who have been give all the black marks with love and understanding and in turn love themselves a little too. I am not going to the first founder’s meeting, but am still a founder and looking forward to thinking of all the great things going on there this weekend, and have been eating chocolate because Ron said he was looking forward to having a nice big slice of chocolate cake which is going to be served at the dinner, yum, Thanks again for you sweetness and caring, I am very moved by your demeanor !
Thank you Joy as well. Yes, I also find it strange that people who are being vocal for their concerns in hopes to help others are being heavily criticized and bullied. Why not praise them for actually caring for others in a world where caring for others is exceedingly rare at times regardless of whether or not their concerns match our beliefs or knowledge?
@Erica
I can’t speak for the others here, but for me personally I have seen a lot of un-praiseworthy comments from Ann Marie on this blog. She accused me (and others) of making personal attacks (where there were none) on a number of occasions, and insisted that we be banned from commenting for it. She also has made ultimatums in an attempt to pressure her strictly enforced “delete & ban” censorship policy onto this blog. She made snide comments and belittled my concerns about my family’s health, as if it didn’t matter compared to her “righteous” mission to alert the world about FCLO (not particularly caring of her). I could go on, but I think you get the picture.
Hi Amanda, I understand. I did see that some of Ann Marie’s comments had shown that she was hurt by what was going on in the conversations, and understandably so just as so many of us have been most likely hurt by some of these comments. I had seen some comments from others also showing that they were hurt as well, yet Ann Marie had much higher negative ratings which is why it seemed odd and suspicious to me.
I think this fermented cod liver oil and sexual harassment issues have gotten many of us so upset on both sides of the issues to where many of us are being hurt and bombarded with division, bullying, character assassinations, shunning, pointing fingers, blaming, shaming, and the like. When we all realize that we are all equal and are all in this together as a family in spirit, there will be no more bullying, division, wars, bitterness, resentment, shunning, blaming, shaming, and the like. I just hope that things will get better soon to where every person isn’t hurting anymore and that every person can get along with each other in love and resolve whatever problems that need to be resolved.
I do think it is very suspicious that Ann Marie gets so many more thumbs down when she has been hurt and defends herself, than the other people doing the same thing, Certainly a concerted effort on the part of the agenda people. And some of the old timers who come to this blog to talk about raw milk and the problems of people being able to buy it. They have been through the war together it sounds like and have their own scrapping going on, and this new information about Weston Price and Green Pastures is certainly disturbing to them, but maybe they are only used to the people against raw milk trolls and all these new people and new agenda people is not a pleasant addition, however well meaning Ann Marie is. And she is, I love her for her fierce integrity and her vision and her deep, passion for the truth and for people’s well being. She truly is a bright light in this dim and murky world. Here is the deal, the agenda people coming here to attack and demean and point fingers to dissemble, to discredit, to cloud the mounting information about the rotten core of Weston Price and the deceit of Green Pastures, I do not know how they would be able to lay down their weapons to destroy the truth, they would suffer being shamed or fired themselves, and honestly I do not believe they even believe what they are saying and I doubt if very many people here even read what they say any more. One of the agenda people did get some sort of attention here when they tried to point a finger at Kaayla after watching her video apologizing to the women at Weston Price for not stepping in sooner and then Steve Tallent saying to this person ” How is it you are not part of the problem” and Stephanie Tallent then told of her abusive childhood and how hard it was to talk about it to point out to this agenda person that the finger pointing was why it was so hard to talk about it. That certainly got some attention, Thankfully no one much reads what I write here any more either and the agenda people, they are kept on here I think because the try to stir up trouble. I guess and some think it is good to have trouble makers on a blog, keeps things hopping, I do not know, nor much care, I am just concerned that people coming here and to other blogs trying to shake loose from the unhealthy dictates and practices of Weston Price and the lies of Green Pastures to get clear information that it does not get muddied up by the agenda people. I agree with what you say about us all being in this together, and I think most decent human beings know that. As for the others, well, they are still in the fallen down stage but one day will pick themselves up and join the rest of us in this together. Here is to the 3Ps and walking upright and honestly in the light!!!!
Oh brother… here she goes again with her delusions of grandure.
Joy says: “and people like Ann Marie and Cathy Raymond and David G. and even Annie Dru, if am remembering right and others get negative ratings. And they will get tons of negative ratings and in a very short space of time too.”
As per usual, Joy is “remembering” wrong… Annie’s posts (pretty much all of them) receive an overwhelming amount of up votes. The same is true for the majority of David’s posts. A few of Cathy’s posts have gotten down voted, but she appears to get up voted more often than not. Ann Marie seems to be the only one of “the amigos” who gets consistently down voted here.
Joy says: “I remember some one attacking me and saying that it gave them great delight to keep pushing the negative thing over and over again on what I had said, it leads me to believe that some people have lots of accounts maybe?”
Yet another false memory. In fact, nobody has said anything even remotely similar to this. What actually happened (because I do remember, and even went back and double-checked to be sure) is that *Joy* had attacked Laurie (unprovoked) and, in response, Laurie stated that she “cherished those negative thumbs” …in which it seemed clear to me that Laurie was referring to the down votes she was getting on her own comments (probably from Joy and “her friends”). Quite the opposite of Joy’s version, starring Joy as the victim of course.
Joy says: “I know my heart is clear and in the right place, though I must say when I began to comment here I was a little shocked and people’s need to jump on me. And I was only expressing my strong and clear feelings and boy did I get sneered at”
Joy should not be shocked at the negative responses she gets considering that she came here and IMMEDIATELY began throwing out insults and personal attacks based off of (again) her “big imagination.” Joy admits to being a patient in therapy herself, but for some reason she fancies herself as something of an armchair expert in psychology, and proceeds to freely diagnose strangers on here with psychological disorders. Elsewhere on the internet (specifically on Kaayla Daniel’s blog) Joy can be seen gossiping about people (including myself, at great length) and making particularly nasty comments, including one shocking example where she pledges to commit an act of physical violence against Chris Masterjohn should she ever run into him in public…. yet she is “surprised” at the negative reactions she receives? Bizzaro indeed…
Hi Amanda,
I did just read a comment of Joy’s on one of Dr. Kaayla Daniel’s posts just now. I can understand where you are coming from. I do know that you are not a horrid, heartless monster. You are valuable and worthy and a beautiful person just as much as anyone else is on this page.
Just because a person is hurting to the point to where they hurt others does not mean that they are evil, worthless, a monster, or whatever other condescending name is being thrown around to try to hurt or discredit someone. Joy at the point of making those comments was hurt. Some of us have used our hurt to batter and fight each other on this page in which I do not agree with although I do understand also the feeling of “pay back” as I have been there myself at times before in the past. I encourage you not to take those condescending words personally. Those condescending words reveal a person who is hurting to the point where they have poured out their hurt on another in a condescending and careless manner. We all have been hurting at times in the past to where we also have poured out our hurt unto others in a condescending and careless manner.
Hi Amanda,
I did just read a comment of Joy’s on one of Dr. Kaayla Daniel’s posts just now. I can understand where you are coming from. I do know that you are not a horrid, heartless monster and whatever other condescending and mean names are being thrown around about you. You are valuable and worthy and a beautiful person just as much as anyone else is on this page.
Just because a person is hurting to the point to where they hurt others does not mean that they are evil, worthless, a monster, or whatever other condescending name is being thrown around to try to hurt or discredit someone. Joy at the point of making those comments was hurt. Some of us have used our hurt to batter and fight each other on this page in which I do not agree with although I do understand also the feeling of “pay back” as I have been there myself at times before in the past. I encourage you not to take those condescending words personally. Those condescending words reveal a person who is hurting to the point where they have poured out their hurt on another in a condescending and careless manner. We all have been hurting at times in the past to where we also have poured out our hurt unto others in a condescending and careless manner.
You are the sweetest person Erica, And thanks for trying to get me off the hook, but I was just plain angry, at that time and not hurting one bit, angry at the way she was treating people on this blog, and I stand by my words still, but not much any more, not because I feel her pain or anything like that, only now I realize I actually took her seriously then, and now I realize it is just a silly act she puts on and others are wiser than I am and no one here takes her seriously. But in case she really is like that then she deserves every thing I said at Kaayla’s blog but cannot say here, So thanks for letting me say it again through your comments, just in case! . Oh God I am so boring even to myself, I admire your spirit and wanting to heal, things but Weston Price really has screwed it’s members over and also screwed Kaayla and Ron and many other prominent people in the organization and I cannot see a common meeting ground with people who still promote that organization. An abusive organization, I was just reading something Ron said on Cheeseslaves’s blog about just because an organization does good, it does not mitigate the wrong it does and Sally and her husband and Dave W of Green Pastures have done a lot of wrong to people and that makes me angry, not hurt. But others have said the same thing, better than I have and it really is time I leave because there is more than enough of my comments here for people like me to read and take comfort in if they need it, And even though my punctuation leaves a lot to be desired, I have some one proof the plays that I write,
And what I wrote was on the fly, I am rather proud of my comments, they are alive and heart felt, and there is a wonderful speech in the play
ORPHEUS DECENDING, by Tennessee Williams, they made a film of it with Brando, called THE FUGITIVE KIND, And talk about people hurting, But Joanne Woodward in the film, says something to the effect after she buys some bleached bones from a kind of southern magical black man, that wild things leave trail markers for other wild things to follow, Oh God it is a lovely and haunting play, So I am leaving my own bleached bones for others like me,. And I just remember what this women director, Margo Jones said to Tennessee Williams, “Don’t wear your heart on your sleeve for the daws to peck at ” So mock all you like I would rather keep my heart on my sleeve. Oh am not in any pain, feeling incredibly stupid for hanging out here far, far too long but no pain, just happy! Oh and the healing I envision will take place I believe at this first meeting of the 3Ps yes, There the deceived Weston Price people will be healed, that is my dream. But I will never understand why I stayed so over long! There is where I am feeling pain. That no one else will bother to read this but you two girls and some odd person like me, A fugitive kind, is a huge relief to me,
@Erica
Thanks for the kind words, but I don’t take what Joy says personally at all. How could I? She doesn’t even know me, after all (or any of the other strangers that she talks trash about on the internet for that matter). In any case, I’m not going to watch her perform her victim act on here without calling her out on it. Especially when she is making violent threats against members of our community. I am actually surprised that Kaayla allows cyber-bullying on her page, and she must have seen it considering that all comments have to be approved by her before they are posted. Clearly there’s a double-standard going on with the “no personal attacks allowed” policy. That alone speaks volumes…
Amanda, I too have also realized that bullying comments were allowed in which I do not agree that bullying comments should be allowed, and it saddens me that the fermented cod liver oil issue has come to all of this bullying and people getting hurt. I will let Dr. Kaayla Daniel know through email about the bullying on her page. I have noticed that people on both sides of the issue, those of us who are concerned regarding the fermented cod liver oil’s safety and also those of us who don’t see the fermented cod liver oil as an issue, are being bullied. I hope that all this bullying will end.
I have been bullied a lot in my own life, and though it has been difficult at times even to the point of me being suicidal, I also can understand where those who have bullied me are coming from as well. Those who bully have been bullied, neglected, abused, and not loved enough themselves. Understanding the roots of the bullying helps me get through what I have been through. Hurting people often hurt others is what I have learned from personal experience.
I prefer not to just be an encourager for one group as all of us can see in my comments. I like to see every person’s viewpoint and to see where all people are coming from. Some of us here might not like the fact that I prefer to be of an encourager for all people, including the people who some of us may not like, and that is ok. I’m not here to please people, but am here to be an encourager for all people.
I have noticed that I receive multiple negative ratings when I am an encourager also for those of us who are not well liked. And that is ok. What I would like for those of us who have issues with certain people here is to take whatever issues we have with others to them personally, resolve whatever it is that is needed to be resolved, and to reconcile. In 20 or more years, I’m sure many of us are not going to hold onto the same bitterness and grudges towards each other anyway.
I just had realized that I need to explain what I encourage to avoid confusion. I encourage for all people to love themselves and each other. What I do not encourage for all people is hurting and harming themselves and each other.
Joy,
Amanda is as equally important, worthy, and valuable as you are. There is no need for condescending and careless remarks. If our words are not used to help people and to bring people up, our words are only used for destroying people. Words can either bring life or they can kill, and I rather you use words to bring life to people. I myself have brought destruction with my words in the past, and it does not feel good at all to see others hurt. When we hurt others, we are hurting ourselves also. We can agree to disagree with each other in a polite and loving manner. All people matter. I encourage you to ask Dr. Kaayla Daniel to delete whatever harsh comments you have said towards Amanda.
@Erica
Joy doesn’t have to delete what she said about me. I’m not bothered by her name calling. Honestly I think it says more about her than anything else. To be clear, it was the threat of physical violence that she made against Chris Masterjohn that I was shocked by… that’s what I was referring to as cyber-bullying.
Amanda, I have not yet read about her threatening physical violence against Chris Masterjohn. I can’t keep up with all the comments on the internet right now with so much limited time. I hope Joy (Joy, hopefully you are reading this also) asks whomever the blogger is that she commented on in their post to delete that threat that she made against him and to resolve whatever issues she may have with him personally. All of this bullying and threatening violence is not beneficial at all and needs to end.
Amanda, what blog did Joy post on regarding the threat towards Chris Masterjohn? I can send them an email regarding this threat in hopes that they will delete that comment and whatever other comments that are condescending and mean because if they are allowing a threat on their page, they could very well be allowing condescending and mean comments from various people on their page as well in which could be very damaging to people.
It’s under the topic about RPLO and heart arrhythmias. I think it’s the last comment that she posted under that blog heading.
Amanda, thank you. I have notified the blogger regarding the issue via email. A lot of bloggers, for various reasons, including the idea of free speech, allow all sorts of comments on their pages, including comments that have nothing to do with the post. These bloggers simply need to be notified regarding the comments that can hurt people on their page as a reminder that there are those of us who can be hurt and harmed by comments that are mean, condescending, and threatening, and hopefully, they will enforce restrictions on the comments sections to their posts to protect others from being hurt and harmed.
@ Erica and Amanda: For heaven’s sake – – – don’t you two have anything more to worry about than this kind of stuff. Geez. If you’re so hurt by comments others make, maybe you should take stock of the things you’ve said in the past. We ALL say things in haste but this line of posts is now bordering on the ridiculous.
@D. Smith
Somehow I don’t think that her comments were made “in haste” seeing as how she just clarified for us that she meant what she said.
In any case, you’re right this conversation is getting pointless.
Thanks, Amanda. I have for a long time been reluctant in commenting regarding issues, such as the bullying and the fermented cod liver oil, for fear that I was going to get put down and bullied either because I voiced my view on an issue or because I may have not fully understood what a person was conveying. It takes love and a lot of strength for me and for a lot of people here to put ourselves out there regardless of how many people come against us and to voice our views in hopes of being of encouragement or a help to someone else. It is indeed easy to not say anything at all, to not help people, to not be of an encouragement to people on a public forum when there is shunning and condemnation involved. It is sad to see that this society accepts shunning, condemnation, division, bullying, egotistical pride, and the like more so than love, compassion, and understanding for all people regardless of what they say or do. As the Japanese proverb says “A nail that sticks out will be hammered.”
My goodness, D. Why this kind of harsh response from you? Gosh, at least be respectful and considerate to people who are new to this blog and may not be aware of what is fully going on in the comments. This harshness towards others makes me not even want to be a part of these conversations and this blog anymore.
Also, D., the comments that I have stated in the past In this past were not condescending or harsh to anyone so I have no clue why you would say “If you’re so hurt by comments others make, maybe you should take stock of the things you’ve said in the past.”
Also, what people have done or said in the past does not at all justify for harshness and unkindness towards others.
D., I totally misunderstood your comment, and I’m sorry for the misunderstanding. I personally wouldn’t consider it out of “haste” or pointless for me to have addressed the bullying and shunning issue. As I have stated in one of the comments above to Amanda, I was reluctant at first to even comment on this page regarding the bullying and shunning for fear that I would get a lot of negative feedback, and with much thought, I decided to comment anyway on it strongly. Considering the negative ratings on my comments regarding the bullying and shunning, I was right about getting negative feedback. Yet, I consider bullying and shunning to be very serious and very damaging to people, and to not say anything at all about it would be careless and inconsiderate of others on my part regardless of whether or not I feared.
Enough of the personal attacks–WAPF–imperfect but important. How do we build the organization to further it’s mission?
Thanks you all for the corrections–commended was the word I was looking for. yes, both Laurie and Lynn got it. Most good organizations eventually outgrow the founder [as Lynn opined not to Sally’s exclusion]–but there has to be a functioning board [not always so easy] so why use the the chapters/members as the voting public–use a [or the web] web site as a communications forum–and let the membership decide on basic decisions. There should also be certain protocols in place as it relates to product endorsements, i.e., an independent lab process [at least 2 preferably 3] vetting the product for quality, efficacy, etc. The WAPF agreement states that the organization must approve any endorsed products. What Sally [we all] has to come to terms with is she is not the the organization–she is the President–who reports to the board– who in turn [Democracy]–reports to the chapter/members. As far as the inside takeover attempt–I have some ideas of my own and would like to here more. Dr. Price was a soulful pioneer–and I think it important to carry on his work. so lets hang together [including Ms Fallon] and make a difference. Peace Church