Why Conflict Over RAWMI Need Not Hurt Food Rights Movement; One Organization’s Mission Statement

The unsettling news about questionable factory foods just keeps coming.

A few days ago, it was Coca Cola saying it found a fungicide in orange juice it produces in Brazil for sale in the U.S.

A few days before that, the USDA was proposing to approve GMO corn that will be based in part on the herbicide of Vietnam War fame, Agent Orange.

Last year, it was 36 million pounds of Cargill turkey contaminated with antibiotic-resistant salmonella.

Before that, it was news that more than two-thirds of our chicken is contaminated with campylobacter and/or salmonella, while the public health community looks the other way, and focuses on shutting down dairy farms.

Shoppers Saturday at Norwich Farmers Market crowd produce and other stands. Each time we are reminded of the truly scary dangers in our food system, the marketplace for nutrient-dense foods expands. Each time we learn that we face an increasingly serious risk of being poisoned by legal and illegal adulterants in our food–GMOs, mercury, fungicides, antibiotic-resistant pathogens, and so forth–more people become wary of buying their milk, meat, eggs, cheeses, and vegetables out of the factory system. Each time a new study shows a growing incidence of asthma and allergies, or the dangers of nitrites, artificial sweeteners, and high fructose corn syrup, the unease about shopping at Kroger’s and WalMart increases.

Before you know it, you have a growing army of disillusioned consumers ever more open to joining a food club, or buying into a herdshare arrangement, or venturing out to farmers markets. (The photo above is of some of the crowd that turned out yesterday in sub-freezing temperatures for an indoor farmers market in Norwich, VT.)

Equally significant, these individuals become receptive to the arguments of the budding food rights movement.

One of the facts that stuck out to me in Blair McMorran’s incisive examination of the benefits of raw milk testing protocols was this little aside: in Colorado, “at least 20 (raw dairies)…have just started up.”

Yes, conventional dairies continue to fold. But raw milk dairies have launched, or converted from conventional production, in significant measure because there is a lucrative growing market for raw dairy and other unprocessed natural foods. The same thing has occurred in California with herdshares, not to mention many other states.

This growing market demand may well turn out to be the saving grace in the growing controversy over RAWMI, and the standard-setting/oversight issues that many here worry about.

Toni Baer lamented in a comment following my previous post, “From my European and scientific perspective nothing is worse within a small movement, if people start attacking each other openly on websites. It only helps those who are against you, which are those who want to get rid of the raw milk.”

I don’t doubt the enemies of food choice and freedom take pleasure in the disagreements here. But they may be taking false comfort. The marketplace is smarter than many of us. As people become ever more worried about their health and the health of their families, they will seek out information about making changes.

Part of what we’re talking about is the difference between a trend and a movement.

A market trend is simply that, a move by increasing numbers of people toward particular kinds of products and services. Sometimes it’s a matter of popularity (music) and fashion (clothes, accessories) and sometimes a trend grows out of fear.

In the case of health, a seemingly healthy market trend (toward nutrient-dense foods) can be subverted by a combination of corporate marketing (providing its version of “safe” and “natural” food) and government propaganda (those people organizing the movement are a bunch of kooks and weirdos and disdain “science”).

The key question for those of us worried about the trampling of food rights, is whether the trend–fear of tainted food that is driving ever larger numbers of people to seek out good food–can be transformed into a movement. I don’t pretend to be an expert in the development of movements, but I do know they unfold in significantly different ways.

We tend to think of the Civil Rights movement as having burst onto the scene in the 1960s under the leadership of Martin Luther King Jr., but the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) was actually founded in 1909.

The Occupy Wall Street movement and all its spinoffs seemingly materialized over a few weeks last year…and then just as quickly dissipated…or did it?  

Look at the women’s rights, gay rights, and home schooling movements, and you will see different dynamics in each.

We don’t yet fully appreciate the dynamics of the food rights movement. My sense is that it will take a heavy focus on local organization, rather than some top-down approach. The local organizations need to take responsibility for publicizing particular local events, like last week’s arraignment of Wisconsin raw dairy farmer Vernon Hershberger.

Gayle Loiselle was rightfully upset that Hershberger’s private contract distribution approach didn’t get a clearer presentation in the media. It “was a missed opportunity because the media was there and ripe for the picking but the most credible well-spoken media savvy heavy hitters in the raw milk movement were not. With at least 2 networks there the message of choice…individual rights … and the abuse of power by the government… could have all been spun into powerful sound bites by those who know how to use the media to the best advantage.”

I agree, but those “media savvy heavy hitters” aren’t necessarily the ones the media even want to hear from–very often, they prefer articulate local people, who are most familiar with the circumstances at hand. I know some local leaders were on hand for the demonstration outside the courthouse on behalf of Hershberger. Perhaps they need training, as Loiselle suggests, to make sure Hershberger’s message comes through. Maybe that becomes part of the education focus of the Raw Milk Institute.

All by way of saying, we shouldn’t necessarily fear a variety of organizations (like the Raw Milk Institute, the Raw Milk Freedom Riders, the Farm Food Freedom Coalition, Food Sovereignty, Alliance for Raw Milk, Weston A. Price Foundation, Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund, etc., etc. ) Nor should we fear serious debate as a means to inform and help people crystalize their views.

So the big unanswered question right now is whether the trend toward serious worry about the quality of our factory food will translate into a sustainable growing movement for the right to access the foods of our choosing. Since the trend isn’t likely to abate any time soon, we have expanding opportunities to get the movement into shape.

Deborah Peterson expressed frustration, following my previous post, about developing mission statements. Since she mentioned it, here’s one just completed by the Raw Milk Freedom Riders. I think it’s pretty decent.

“The Raw Milk Freedom Riders are dedicated to overturning the FDA’s criminalization of interstate raw milk shipments as a way to end the agency’s ongoing assault on dairy farmers and the consumers they serve.  The assaults include raids on small dairies that distribute raw milk, undercover investigations of ordinary citizens who consume raw milk, and assorted efforts to destabilize private food clubs, among other actions.

“We are committed to intentionally defying the interstate ban as a way to publicize the reality that raw milk isn’t a public health hazard and to publicly expose the FDA’s violent acts listed above.

“We demand that the FDA leave raw milk decisions entirely to individual states, and respect the rights of individuals to enter into private contracts with farmers to obtain the foods of their choice.”

The Raw Milk Freedom Riders have already held two demonstrations involving civil disobedience. And the organization will have a booth at the upcoming Constitutional Sheriffs Convention Jan. 29-31.


Here’s an in-depth look at one slice of the food rights struggle…and a pretty fair one, at that, from The New American magazine. Includes some worthwhile history, as well. Also, it provides the views of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, without bowing to them.

And an interview with me on Agricultural Insights web site, about the government crackdown on raw milk, by Chris Stelzer.

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75 Comments on "Why Conflict Over RAWMI Need Not Hurt Food Rights Movement; One Organization’s Mission Statement"

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Sylvia Gibson
January 17, 2012 1:05 am

David, Many don't know history, I learned more about history after I was an adult than I ever learned in school. Education is the key for the movement. Doreen, Jennifer and Deborah posted excellent posts.

I never cared for soy and avoid it. I lean towards the research that it is unhealthy. I have pointed out to people that in Asia it is eaten mostly fermented and not in huge amounts that it is consumed in the US. http://www.utne.com/print-article.aspx?id=6886

I am currently in the heart of cargill and… Read more »

Sylvia Gibson
January 17, 2012 2:28 am

There is a free flyer I had picked up the other day at the grocery store here in Little Rock. It is called 'The Mature Arkansas' dated Jan 12, 2012.

It has a story titled 'Seniors driving local food movement'. They interviewed farmers from Hot Springs CO-OP, etc. It stated that "locally grown food had been growing by about 10% a year since 2000" "Nearly 80% of those starting small scale beef production will not make it to the 3rd year and virtually none make it in the long haul", "There are lots of… Read more »

Ken Conrad
January 17, 2012 3:31 am


For those who havent listened to this interview with Dr. Huber then I urge you to do so, since it parallels much of the discussion that has occurred on this blog about our relationship with plants, animals and organisms.

Dr Huber states in the interview that, Our Knowledge is so premature, so infantile that to assume that we have these silver bullets that you can just put into a revolver and spin the chamber for whatever stress or problems you have, just doesnt work.

Ken Conrad

January 17, 2012 4:20 am

Apparently, we're not allowed to post links anymore? I posted a comment with a link several days ago, just after comment approval started, and it never showed up.

Mary Martin
January 17, 2012 4:33 am

It is abysmal that the infiltration of GMO foods has happened to our food supply and that so much of our poultry supply is contaminated with pathogens (which is meant to be cooked and that kills the pathogens), but I dont understand what this has to do with producing high quality, safe raw milk. I am probably as stunned as Mark McAfee at the conflict that has been generated over the idea of establishing safety standards for the production of raw milk. I think it is one of the areas that Mark and I agree upon. … Read more »

Sylvia Gibson
January 17, 2012 5:20 am

Doreen, Jennifer and Deborah posted excellent responses.

Mary, for many it is about food rights, not just raw milk. As a human it is my right to choose what I wish to consume just as it is your right as a human to choose. Obviously tptb aren't only focusing on raw dairy. They are targeting all foods to control.

I would doubt the majority of dairy farmers don't engage in safe standards. It would be suicide if they or any other farmer didn't practice safe standards. I would bet that most… Read more »

Sylvia Gibson
January 17, 2012 5:44 am

I thought this post from the last thread was interesting and am re-posting it:

Cow Share Canada has never been transparent. There are a few, and I do mean a few people in Canada that know something about the organization. Most others just stand back and scratch their heads wondering what Cow Share Canada is.

If you ask Cow Share Canada for the standards they feel Canadian raw farmers should be using, you will be told one of two things. 1. You have to pay the yearly fee to Cow Share Canada before any information will be given. 2. You must… Read more »

The Complete Patient
January 17, 2012 6:13 am

Mary Martin,
Not sure if you are trying to be humorous with this comment: "If you dont prove you are serious about producing safe raw milk, when outbreaks occur the hammer is going to come down hard."

I think you know by this time that even if you can prove you are serious about producing safe raw milk, and there are no outbreaks, the hammer can come down hard. And that partly explains the reluctance about RAWMI. Some farmers feel RAWMI will turn into a regulatory-type organization, in partnership with government regulators, who have shown themselves to be highly arbitrary… Read more »

Ken Conrad
January 17, 2012 6:35 am

I also submitted a comment with a link that did not post, so I will try it this way.

For those who havent listened to the interview of Dr. Huber by Dr. Mercola then I urge you to go to the Mercola.com website and do so, since it parallels much of the discussion that has occurred on this blog about our relationship with plants, animals and organisms.

Dr. Huber states in the interview that, Our Knowledge is so premature, so infantile that to assume that we have these silver bullets that you can just put into a revolver and spin… Read more »

Jennifer Feeney
January 17, 2012 6:39 am

Mary, if you think producing clean raw milk is just about safety standards and testing, then you can't see the forest through the trees. The availability of healthy feed, the availability of farmland, the availability of farmers to be able to contribute to a viable local economy are all a part of the production of healthy clean raw milk. Government policy, GMO's, factory farms… they ALL contribute to the above factors. If you just set up tests but don't provide the environment in which to produce clean raw milk, you are doing nothing to contribute to… Read more »

Bill Anderson
January 17, 2012 6:50 am


Mary is serious.

Those of us who have formal training in HACCP and who work in FDA regulated environments know how serious these food safety issues are. This doesn't mean I agree with the FDA. I have many disagreements, from rBGH, GMOs, antibiotics and drugs in the food supply, our society's over-reliance on pharmaceuticals, to the relative risks of raw milk. It just means that I understand how the system works and why it is this way.

I share many of the concerns about the increasing corporate control of the food supply, and in particular, the concentration of… Read more »

Jan Steinman
January 18, 2012 1:34 am

Good job, Kelly!

While Mary laments that not just anyone can milk their own cow, Kelly comes along and does it.

As George Bernard Shaw said, "People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."

We have here a battle of two world views.

On the one hand is Mary, Mark, and a handful of others who believe in the industrial model of production, taking advantage of economy of scale, involving checks and balances, tests and regulations.

On the other hand is the (for lack of a better name) Transition Town model, that says local is better, and… Read more »

Dave Milano
January 18, 2012 8:15 am

What if you had 10 cows? Do you think you could give the same care and attention to making sure everything that went with milking was done properly? What if you had 20 cows? See how with each cow added to the mix of the job becomes more difficult to manage and an accidental 'cow poo-poo' accident could happen.


The short answer to your question about herd size is that the best number of cows cannot be adjudicated out of context of their environment. It is entirely wrong to presuppose an inverse relationship between herd size and herd and human… Read more »

Dave Milano
January 18, 2012 8:27 am

I dug back through David's blog to find something I had sent in almost two years ago. In light of Blair's and David's point about increasing grass-roots demand for raw dairy, I believe it bears repeating (apologies to those sensitive to redundancy):


I think it's time once again to review the greater ecology into which raw milk and humans fit.

That ecology begins with the most abundant and durable crop on earth—grass—which unsurprisingly is a tremendously effective solar collector, a perfect companion to the soil and its microbial colonies, a cleaner of water and air, and a marvelous carbon store. Virtually… Read more »

Kelly Hensing
January 18, 2012 9:14 am

Dave Milano-Your second (older) post brought tears to my eyes.
I certainly wish I had the land and the money to support more cows (they are addicting!). I don't. I am fortunate to be able to do what I do. My husband calls our backyard "Kelly's ecosystem", and it is very true. It is very small scale, and it works.

Mary-If I was milking more cows, you betcha each and every one of them would get the excellent care that my girl gets. Along with excellent care comes excellent milk. Have we… Read more »

Farmer John
January 18, 2012 10:09 am

Thanks for re-posting that second post, Dave! I loved it!

"But worshippers of man-made systems apparently cannot be dissuaded. They are confident. So confident in fact, that they would use force to wall natural men off from Nature."

This willingness to "use force" is what I feel is a violation.

Laws are enforced. Enforcement, ultimately, means men with guns and clubs. Legislators and regulators are ultimately backed by force.

I am amazed at the hubris of those who believe they have a right to initiate force against others for the "crime" of arranging for food… Read more »

Jennifer Feeney
January 18, 2012 10:27 am

I am so inspired by these recent posts! Kelly, I admire your taking control of your situation and getting a cow. Animals are a lot of work. We have hens for eggs, we raise broilers for ourselves, and had pigs last year, we have bees and fruit trees an bushes. We hope one day to have a cow. It is all so much work and at the same time so rewarding! I laugh when people talk about the manure and are afraid of it. I ask my neighbors to bring me their… Read more »

Mark McAfee
January 18, 2012 12:06 pm

For the last 60 days OPDC has been scratching our heads trying to figure out why raw colostrum was taken out of the CA retail market place. The OPDC recall in November was about raw milk and not colostrum…..so why was colostrum attacked and removed from the market??

Well….now we know. We have found the smoking gun…..Our dearly beloved Mr. Bill Marler esq. wrote a letter ( fully admitted to this letter in a recent Food Safety publication ) to CA Sec of Ag Karen Ross some months ago imploring her to seek control and ban Raw… Read more »

Milky Way
January 18, 2012 12:48 pm

Two outbreak investigations involving raw chocolate colostrum:



2011 outbreak investigation report is still pending.


Milky Way
January 18, 2012 12:57 pm

Two outbreak investigations involving raw chocolate colostrum:



2011 outbreak investigation report is still pending.


Milky Way
January 18, 2012 12:59 pm

My links have been submitted for approval :)


Sylvia Gibson
January 18, 2012 10:39 pm

That "investigation" in 2006 was was so sloppy. One of the mothers offered a raw milk jug and the state inspectors refused.

Same old crap MW, can't you do better?

Mark, many do not trust tptb and this only reinforces it. You showed you were willing to work with them and bend to their oppression and look where it got you….

"Dave Milano is right…the physical part is tough. Some days though, the mental part is alot tougher… "

This is part of the reason I don't have a farm, and why I have no problem paying someone to… Read more »

Mary Martin
January 18, 2012 11:02 pm


My point was made for me. A raw milk dairy in Washington was recalled because E.coli was found in the milk. They have 20 cows and have been in business for 31/2 months. The owners have decided that the risk is to great and they will no longer be producing raw milk.

Mark McAfee
January 19, 2012 10:50 am

Sylvia…Amen sister.

Today CDPH provided their investigational findings and report to OPDC. They confirm what we knew…that the calf area did have some samples that tested positive for Ecoli 0157H7. Two of these samples were a match ( to the ill consumers pathogen DNA ) genetically according to their blue printing technology. The others are still being investigated ( presumably they were not a match ). The report then goes on to guess about how five kids, at different times weeks or months apart and at totally different locations arround the state of CA became ill from the bacteria… Read more »

Sylvia Gibson
January 19, 2012 11:01 am

Back to the question…Why only those few get ill when so many others consume the milk? What is it about them that caused them to react when the majority did not?

Like vaccinations…only a few (collateral damage) are harmed/killed but according to the cdc it is worth it to get shots….

Mary Martin
January 19, 2012 11:26 am

Yes Mark. It doesnt take much of this bacterium to make someone sick. It sounds like one of your workers tracked the cow poop back to the milking area, or maybe one of your workers has an E.coli 0157:H7 infection but does not have symptoms and isnt washing his/her hands well enough after doing the deed. Have you had your employees checked? You never believed that the last outbreak was caused by your cows. This outbreak is a karma reincarnation minus me suing you. It took me a year. Someone may show… Read more »

The Complete Patient
January 19, 2012 12:26 pm

Thanks for sharing the news about the match between your calves' E.coli and that of the ill customers. Hopefully the followup information, and your own internal assessment of procedures and processes, can lead to some important learning all around.


Gordon Watson
January 19, 2012 1:44 pm

dailly, you go on for thousands of words, Mary Martin, on a topic about which you know less than zero – dairying – yet you can't come up with one sentence to answer my test question : when was the last time you so much as walked across a barnyard where they're producing REAL MILK? when's the last time you had the integrity to go out to Organic Pastures?
before you rag on Mark McAffee about what MIGHT have happened in your overwrought imagination, climb out of that pit you've dug yourself… Read more »

Barney Google
January 19, 2012 8:11 pm


I apologize for responding so late to your comment to me, you have other options for feeding your dairy animals, there are various grasses, clovers, Trefoils, vetches, and others that may grow in your area; that way don't have to worry about gmo alfalfa.

Hope this helps you,

Jennifer Feeney
January 19, 2012 10:37 pm

In a previous life, I worked as a lab technicin genotyping and sequincing DNA (at Purdue University's ecology department and University of Chicago's Cancer Research Center). To find the genetic finger print, you must first culture the bacteria, isolate the colonies you want to sequence, grow enough to get your sequencing sample, extract the DNA, put it through a series of chemical reactions to amplify the segment of DNA you want to investigate, run it through another series of chemical reactions so you can actually see the sequence, then run it through a sequencing machine that spits out… Read more »

Sylvia Gibson
January 19, 2012 10:57 pm

Wow, Jennifer, that was educational about the fingerprinting. I hadn't realized that he potential for error was so high with so many checks and balances that need to be done and I am guessing, are not done most of the time. Food for thought.

I looked up the "Cheese Nun" she is an impressive lady.

"I never thought I'd milk a cow," said the Benedictine nun who would go on to hone her Connecticut abbey's cheesemaking practices, earn a doctorate in microbiology from the University of Connecticut, study fungi in France on a Fulbright… Read more »

Sylvia Gibson
January 19, 2012 11:01 pm

Is it just the posts with links that have to be monitored?

Wow, Jennifer, that was educational about the fingerprinting. I hadn't realized that he potential for error was so high with so many checks and balances that need to be done and I am guessing, are not done most of the time. Food for thought.

I looked up the "Cheese Nun" she is an impressive lady.

seattletimes.nwsource (dot) com/html/foodwine/2003708130_cheesenun16.html

"I never thought I'd milk a cow," said the Benedictine nun who would go on to hone her Connecticut abbey's cheesemaking practices, earn a doctorate in microbiology from the University… Read more »

Jennifer Feeney
January 19, 2012 11:15 pm


If you look up the pros and cons of DNA fingerprinting, it is universally acknowledged that it is only as competent as those performing the testing. That starts from the collection of samples (we all have heard about poorly collected milk samples), to the execution of the tests and even analysis of the results. Where I worked, a fingerprints were sequenced to confirm. I double, given the expense entailed, that the milk fingerprints are being sequenced. But health officials would need to give more information about results to know anything about the positive test results… Read more »

Bill Anderson
January 19, 2012 11:22 pm


I have been familiar with Sister Noella Marcellino's work for many years. (aka "the cheese nun"). In particular, her work studying the geotrichum candidum yeast/mold in French Sainte Nectaire cheese (from the Savoie region of France, bordering Switzerland) is outstanding.

I think she is a shining example of what this movement needs to do if it is to be successful at legalizing and/or decriminalizing raw milk. Rather than create a cult of like-minded political ideologues (as our current movement leadership has done) Sister Marcellino decided to take the revolutionary step of using SCIENCE to defend her position… Read more »

Sylvia Gibson
January 19, 2012 11:58 pm

"it is universally acknowledged that it is only as competent as those performing the testing. "

That would pertain to many professionals… I've seen many in the health care field where competency should be questioned.

"A positive result in the absence of the data means nothing to me."

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.

Bill, I grew up eating American cheese, grocery store swiss, along with canned Parmesan, now, I would not touch any of those. When I first went to Germany in the early 70s, In the 13 yrs there I learned the world had better foods and my tastes… Read more »

January 20, 2012 12:21 am

I'm surprised that no one is defending the validity of lab results claiming that a "match" has been found.After all, aren't these tests the "gold standard" when it comes to tracing a "pathogen" back to it's source? Milky Way, where are you? If Steve's 11 great thoughts were implemented ,the one about an open ,transparent,collaborative epidemiology investigation would pull back the curtains on these fraudulent health department tests.

Mark McAfee
January 20, 2012 12:24 am

Brilliant Post Jennifer,

I learned alot from it. The concept that one kid gets sick every three weeks for 10-11 weeks and all of the products test negative…all of them, hundreds of them, even all of the tests of product taken from their homes. Not just some of them. It is hard to wrap my brain arround. When 50-60,000 people per week are drinking raw milk from OPDC and only one child every few weeks gets sick???…how did this happen. Why did it happen sporatically. Why wasn't there illnesses every week. Why every several weeks at "one at… Read more »

Sylvia Gibson
January 20, 2012 1:16 am

",the one about an open ,transparent,collaborative epidemiology investigation would pull back the curtains on these fraudulent health department tests. "

Miguel! For shame, you know tptb don't want the public to know how worthless they truly are! It the masses knew the truth, then they would lose power.

This is where teaching comes in.

Jennifer, may I share your post;

beginning with: "To find the genetic finger print,…. and ending with "(even in DNA fingerprinting)." ?

Mark, I'd be paranoid…but then I don't trust easily.

Jennifer Feeney
January 20, 2012 2:05 am

Oh, and I want to say that I'm not denying the positive test result. I want to know more about HOW they obtained their positive. Again, a positive in the absence of all of the information is meaningless. I have heard of positive results that could have come from sample-takers walking through manure.

e. coli can last for months on the surface of something, so it could very well have been a surface contamination and never present in the milk. Bio security measures on farms are in place to prevent accidental environmental… Read more »

Dave Milano
January 20, 2012 2:24 am

Science does eventually catch up with art, but it takes monumental patience to tolerate the progress.

Kristen Papac
January 20, 2012 2:58 am

I for one, am extremely pissed off by the news coming out of OPDC today and I don't know how to reconcile my feelings in the moment, but I will try:

When I first started WAPF, everyone glorified the benefits of raw milk and perpetuated the myth that pathogens cannot grow in raw milk and hence it is inherently safe. You know, the whole Sally Fallon real milk website idiocy. I was skeptical. I did not "drink the raw milk koolaid" for over a year or so.

Then, I got pregnant the second time around. I turned to WAPF guidelines and… Read more »

Gordon Watson
January 20, 2012 4:20 am

Kristen Papac … you're the very one I've been hoping would come along. You can help the dialogue immensely by getting the names and addresses of those who – purportedly – were sickened, so what they have to say can be scrutinzed publicly, and so discover the FACTS, about what's really gone on, in this round.

In the fall of 2009, in BC, the Chief Medical Health Officer of British Columbia got on his hind legs braying like a jackass,nation-wide, pretending 'some poor little girl was lying in hospital, sickened after drinking raw milk from Home on… Read more »

Kristen Papac
January 20, 2012 4:31 am

Oh, Gordon, you are calling me fear based? I call you paranoid.

As to your war, Mr. McAfee, the war you speak of will go on into purpetuity as you are your own greatest enemy.

Good bye, and good luck.

kirsten weiblen
January 20, 2012 5:13 am


Isn't there a warning label cautioning against using raw milk during pregnancy? I would certainly hope so. Also I would think that raw egg yolks could cause the symptoms you describe.

In any case, good luck to you and your baby.

Gordon Watson
January 20, 2012 6:08 am

Kristen Papac
please supply to us the names + addresses of the people whom – you say – got sick from drinking raw milk from Organic Pastures Dairy? And let's not have any stupid noises about "patient confidentiality" … either you have objective facts to go on, or you don't. So far, what we have is propaganda … the kind of unsubstantiated rumor in which paranoia thrives … your own message starts off warning that you're irrational!

what I'm doing is holding public officials accountable… have they. ever lied to you before?

Kristen Papac
January 20, 2012 7:03 am


By Mark McAfee's own admission, two of the sickest children got sick from raw dairy purchased from OPDC and made into kefir at home. Is he a part of your conspiracy as well?

No more talk of tptb creating fake sick children and thus a fake outbreak, please. Ask Mary Martin if her son is real.

Good day to you, sir. I am no longer replying to your cockamamie logic.


Have you not heard WAPF pregnancy diet recommendations? Or read Nourishing Traditions? WAPF and Sally Fallon are some of your biggest raw milk supporters. Or their raw milk baby formula?… Read more »

kirsten weiblen
January 20, 2012 11:54 am


It seems to me you and MM made decisions against your better judgement. Perhaps it was due to peer pressure, or perhaps due to your own wishful thinking.There is no magical food.

Chris is indeed a real person, and he is the loser in all of this, despite causation.

Yet, no relation to either illness in you or in Chris due to raw milk has been proved.

Madame, rest well.

kirsten weiblen
January 20, 2012 12:18 pm

Prof. Heckman,

You are right about Mn deficiency being caused by Roundup (glyphosate). It is being used by many governments as an airstrike deterrent to crops such as coca, and it has in itself caused human poisoning recently in Colombia.

High levels of Mn potentiate the abnormal configuration of proteins characteristic in prion diseases in animals. In Sylvia's link however, low levels of Mn seem to correspond with a higher susceptibility to food-borne toxins.

That is why Violet, Dave M., and miguel give such credence to animal husbandry and soil health issues. Balance is the thing.

Cassi Friz
January 21, 2012 12:14 am

Whoa- I've spent waaayyy too many hours following the comments on these blogs!

As a raw milk consumer for the last 5+ years, mother of 4 small children, and traditional foods chef, I know about germs. Fermentation, culturing, poo-poo, illness, pregnancy, you name it, and I deal with it almost every day.

Every item we choose to eat is a decision to take the risk that the item is healthier for you than poisonous. This is not a static point on some theoretical scale that some scientists or doctors know and can educate everyone about. As… Read more »

Blair McMorran
January 23, 2012 3:43 am

Seems we all lean on some philosophy of "proof". A method on which we rely to "prove" cause and effect. I suspect the truth is beyond our ken. A scientific study or laboratory analysis may "lend support" to a given hypothesis, but it never "proves" the hypothesis. There are just too many unknowns.

I think we study disease too much; there is not enough study of health. Michael Schmidt describes cows grazing on verdant pastures with "rainbows on their coats", and asserts that the spiral in the cow paddy reflects the spiral of the cow's… Read more »