For years, the public health, medical, regulator, and conventional dairy communities have marched in lockstep against raw milk. Collaborating with these forces of government and business have been the farmer communities, via their trade groups, the American Farm Bureau and the National Farmers Union.
But then something happened earlier this month, and the National Farmers Union, an organization that has long been representative of family farms, and is more than 100 years old, decided at long last that there was something to the raw milk thing, as in: Maybe there really is a sustainable business model for smaller dairies. Maybe the raw dairy market isnt the mortal danger its been portrayed. Maybe we should help our members before they all disappear.
So as part of its new policy plank adopted at its recent national convention, it encouraged raw milk as a viable market niche for dairies. In effect, it was admitting at long last that the old dairy model of exclusively serving the conventional processed milk industry isnt working for many dairies, and that they should explore other business opportunities, just like businesses everywhere. Except, of course, dairies have long not been treated like businesses everywhere.
It dealt with the safety issue by warning against mixing milk sources: Because of the possible risks of cross-contamination, we recommend that raw milk be bottled as the product of a single source and wherever possible at the physical location of that source. Single-source bottling will keep intact the chain of responsibility and greatly aid in tracking possible cases of contamination.
The organization also advocated policies, practices and standards for responsible raw milk production…
And finally the National Farmers Union pushed for equal access to raw milk (and or raw dairy products) for human consumption for all consumers that choose to consume raw milk–in other words, an end to the U.S. Food and Drug Administrations prohibition on interstate sales of raw milk, in effect since 1987.
Also to its credit, the National Farmers Union avoided the public-private aspect of raw milk availability–an issue that simmers in many of the discussions here. It didnt get into the matter of state permits, inspections, and rules. Its advocacy of policies, practices and standards isn’t limited to a particular realm. The policies, practices, and standards could come from anywhere–the Raw Milk Institute (RAWMI), the Raw Milk Association of Colorado, the Farm-to-Consumer Foundation, or an individual farmers own protocol, among other options.
In sum, then, the National Farmers Unions decision was a breath of fresh air. Congrats to Mark McAfee of Organic Pastures Dairy Co. for his persistence in encouraging the organization to take the enlightened path.
When a united front against freedom and tolerance is broken, as that against raw milk has now been broken, it invariably is the first step in a domino effect.
This is basically what many posters have been saying on this blog.
“because most of the ingredients should have been processed beforehand,”
What does that mean?
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/29/frozen-quesadillas-sicken-24-in-18-states/2034693/
I would look to the chicken for this problem. Chicken from a grocery story is like an accident waiting to happen, even for the supposedly “organic, no antibiotic used” type chicken. You’d be hard pressed to get me to buy that slime on a styrofoam tray. We are having the devil’s own time trying to find pastured chickens in this area. I would love to raise my own in the backyard, but our city outlawed it and truthfully I can understand why. Around here there are a lot of wild animals who normally would be living up in the hills, but they come down for food and water because there is little for them in the natural world right now because of fire damage, pine beetle damage and drought conditions. Bobcats, racoons, coyotes, wolves and lots of predator birds (like hawks and chicken-hawks) who have no problem carrying off two chickens at one time in those huge talons of theirs.
The practice was first exposed by the TV news program A Current Affair, which reported that by law, dairy companies did not have to disclose the presence of permeate on the labels of milk containers.
No permeate is a collective term for the lactose, water, vitamins and minerals components of milk produced by a separation process called ultra filtration. It is not a by-product of cheese.”
Another site states: “Milk permeate is a by-product of the dairy production process, formed after ultrafiltration of milk to extract protein and fat used to produce cheese. Permeate has a watery consistency, and is green in colour due to the presence of B vitamins. It consists of lactose, water, vitamins and minerals. Milk permeate may be added to fresh milk as part of a process called standardisation, to keep consistent levels of fat and protein in the product which may have seasonal variations.”
This milk permeate seems to be something that was done in Australia, I could not find anything that it is something done in the US. Either way, since it is a product of processing of milk and I would not ever consume processed milk, this would be a moot point to me. If it is done in the US, here’s another reason to not purchase & consume processed milk.
“So what IS permeate?
The diagram in Lynnes post shows milk entering a factory and some of it going of for cheese making through a process called ultrafiltration. This filtration separates the large proteins (the caseins) and the fats for cheese making and leaves the rest the permeate. Although whole milk is used in cheese making, adding extra fat and protein makes a better cheese (according to my quick scan of websites etc).
At this point its important to remember that permeate is a word meaning stuff that passes through a membrane full of pores, in the same way that filtrate is what passes through a filter. Its about as meaningful on its own as the word leftovers. It is also why whole milk does not contain permeate, but it does contain all the things that are in permeate.
So whats in the milk permeate?
This fact sheet from the Dairy Manufacturers Sustainability Council describes ultrafiltration as removing molecules with a molecular weight of 10,000 150,000 and a pore size of 0.005-0.1 micrometre. A quick scan for research articles on the composition of milk permeate pulled out this article which states it contains water, lactose, minerals and some nitrogenous compounds (presumably amino acids). The precise composition of milk permeate will vary from factory to factory and season to season, depending on the size of their filters, and the lactose and other content of the milk from the cows supplying the factory.”
http://www.uoguelph.ca/foodscience/cheese-making-technology/section-d-acidification-and-coagulation/coagulation/milk-structure
http://www.uoguelph.ca/foodscience/cheese-making-technology/section-g-some-alternate-technologies/cheese-making-ultra-filtered-milk/ben
It sounds like they are considering removing permeate at the farm using ultra filtration (UF) and feeding it back to cattle.
Economic Benefits to the Farmer of performing UF on the farm are savings in both transportation and feed costs and the opportunity to market a value added product.
My cynical regard for the milk processing industry tells me that the process of removing permeate is probably just a pain in the ass, and for them to consider such an option is just another way of downloading capital and handling cost onto the farmer. If there were a substantial net benefit the greedy industry would continue doing it.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022030213000179
Colored and uncolored MF permeates were bleached with benzoyl peroxide (BP) or hydrogen peroxide (HP), ultrafiltered, diafiltered, and spray-dried.
Is this really constructive or is it an excessive and foolish application of knowledge and technology? Consider the amount of energy that is required to break milk down into some of it basic components as compared to the amount of energy a cow requires in order to miraculously combine the basic components of life into a living wholesome food?
Ken
Good point, Mark. Add to that the fact that there are more of us, who value the freedom to decide what foods to put in our bodies, than there are of them, who would make the decisions for us. Woody Allen famously said in one of his movies to effect, “80 per cent of life is just showing up.”
There are two types of permeate, one being a by-product of cheese (whey permeate), and the other a by-product of milk processing. Only milk permeate is legally allowed to be mixed back into milk to standardise fat and protein levels.
is ok?? Bastards… will rot in hell.
http://today.ninemsn.com/article.aspx?id=8228108 <~~~I realize this is from Australia, I am trying to find information about US milk. There are companies that sell additives this being one of them: http://idahomilkproducts.com/product/idapro-milk-permeate-powder-0
http://www.innovatewithdairy.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Permeate%20Brochure.pdf
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/03/30/grazing-livestock.aspx?e_cid=20130330_DNL_art_1&utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20130330
Ken
Another scientist who has discovered the power of looking backwards just a little bit, and that’s a good thing. If he hadn’t taken the time to peer over his shoulder, he never would have made his discovery.
A most interesting vid. Thanks for sharing it, Ken.
[Paper] The ecological role of biodiversity in agroecosystems (Citations: 297)
Miguel A. Altieri
Increasingly research suggests that the level of internal regulation of function in agroecosystems is largely dependent on the level of plant and animal biodiversity present. In agroecosystems, biodiversity performs a variety of ecological services beyond the production of food, including recycling of nutrients, regulation of microclimate and local hydrological processes, suppression of undesirable organisms and detoxification of noxious chemicals. In this paper the role of biodiversity in securing crop protection and soil fertility is explored in detail. It is argued that because biodiversity mediated renewal processes and ecological services are largely biological, their persistence depends upon the maintenance of biological integrity and diversity in agroecosystems. Various options of agroecosystem management and design that enhance functional biodiversity in crop fields are described.
Journal: Agriculture Ecosystems & Environment – AGR ECOSYST ENVIRON , vol. 74, no. 1, pp. 19-31, 1999
http://libra.msra.cn/Publication/3884541/the-ecological-role-of-biodiversity-in-agroecosystems
“suppression of undesirable organisms and detoxification of noxious chemicals.”
With the NFU making a position, it may be wise to move to persuade the professional organizations to shift theirs, I would recommend the Nurses as they are closer to the care of patients then other health authorities and share much of the same struggles of recognition.
Here in Ontario…I had also noticed that the health Authority chose to substantiate their position by using the statements of a bio-ethics professor from the University of Toronto, also an easy rebuttal to make, but only from those with the credentials to do so. Yet, I am surprised that the approach has not been taken to expose this statement to the academic community and toward seeking a redactment or broader discussion in the field as to warrant and demenstrate differing points of view. any way, today we say Hurrah!
This is about 20 minutes long. It is worth watching. Great information about the change in food over the years; how it has been altered. We don’t eat the same food our ancestors did.
The question of what’s actually in milk came up while reading the Wisconsin statute and finding that milk processors have gotten around the law against adulteration and misbranding by simply redefining the word milk.
In my search for what’s in milk I ran across the A1, A2 milk question which is still a consideration when choosing a raw milk dairy.
So what I have so far is:
1. Pasteurization causes cancer and allergies.
2. Homogenization causes heart disease.
3. A1 beta-casein vs. A2 beta-casein.
4. Toxic Spray Dried Nonfat Milk Powder is added to low-fat milk in America without labeling.
5. Synthetic vitamin D and carrier added.
6. Cheese and pasteurized milk sometimes listed as raw milk when associated with an outbreaks.
7. Permeate is added to milk in Australia without labeling.
8. Pasteurized milk sometimes sold as raw in Europe.
9. The ultra pasteurization of organic milk.
10. Organic milk with Omega-3 DHA.
11. Organic dairy products with carrageenan.
12. Raw milk in California $14.00+ per gallon.
When ever I mention adulteration and misbranding I can’t help but finish by saying we allowed DATCP’s creation with it’s sole purpose being to protect us from the unfair business practices of it’s board members. Kind of funny isn’t it. So no matter how many times they say it; it is not their job to protect us from ourselves. You know, since consumers don’t want pasteurized milk and they do want raw milk, shouldn’t DATCP’s board be made up of members of the organic, grass fed, A2, farm direct, raw milk industry? The law only says they are to be members of industry, it doesn’t say which industry. The processed food industry is basically an illegal enterprise. It makes no since to put them in charge of our food production.
Pasteurization is adulteration because we have allowed manufacturers to misrepresent it’s purpose and it’s safety. Pasteurization is not done to milk to improve it’s safety because it does not.
We do not EVER buy “fresh” corn on the cob at any supermarket because it tastes awful, and just like selecting your milk farmer, the best way is to visit local farms and buy it direct from them and as fresh as possible. I understand that we are a minority, but we actually look for worms in some of the corn because that is an indication that it wasn’t poisoned, if it’s good enough for the worm it’s good for me.
I’m not sure if you are responding to my post or Davids post. In case it is my post, I will elaborate.
The full statement made by David; “The policies, practices, and standards could come from anywhere–the Raw Milk Institute (RAWMI), the Raw Milk Association of Colorado, the Farm-to-Consumer Foundation, or an individual farmers own protocol, among other options.”
I don’t think anyone on this blog feels that any farmer would not have specific practices/standards/policies in the running of their farm. I wouldn’t expect a one cow or even a 50 cow farm to have written policies, etc as the larger farmer for public consumption would have. Just because they don’t have what they do in writing doesn’t mean they “don’t care” or are substandard as a few have alluded to on this blog.
And, yes, I believe that anyone coming into dairy farming (as with any new goal), should learn as much as possible from which-ever mode suits them and to continue learning throughout the journey.
I think, basically, we all want the same thing; freedom to choose what we consume and the ease in availability to obtain that.
I am in far east Virginia, the only way to get raw dairy is to belong to a cow share. I am not here long enough to join one, so I do without. Pennsylvania is over 6 hrs away as is South Carolina, neither is realistic to drive to for milk pick up.
I think you could be right about trying to change the focus of the medical community toward raw milk. However, I wouldn’t hold my breath about that being a big hit. You’d almost have to start with the registered dieticians and most of those people are pretty well entrenched with the notions put into their heads about nutrition by the current standards – such as the ridiculous My Plate idea. The real place to start might be in the curriculum area of education about nutrition. After 30+ years of believing fat is bad and salt is bad and all the rest of their somewhat screwy ideas, that would be an enormous mountain to climb. Even those within that industry who already know better don’t change their mantra, which is sad and a real detriment to their patients/clients.
But even if we don’t all agree on everything, we can still move forward even if it’s only one person at a time.
When a culture tests positive for STEC, it has to be reported to the CDCPulse Net. http://www.cdc.gov/pulsenet/ When matching fingerprints of STEC start showing up from different states, that is how they know an outbreak is happening.
I didn’t know what ‘Permeate’ was (when I saw that word posted, I thought of a permeable membrane) not something to do with milk adulteration. I shared what was posted here and I have no doubt that it will be shared multiple times. People will start asking questions, and they probably won’t like what they hear or find out.
http://www.livescience.com/21213-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-u-s-since-1900-infographic.html
I know the flu viruses were ‘discovered’ in the 1930s, I know they start giving experimental flu shots to the soldiers during WWII, I know the flu shot was “approved” sometime in the 50s. I cannot find where the numbers of population began receiving flu shots on a yearly bases. According the the CDC graft in the link, the flu was decreasing long before flu shots hit the public. Heart disease appears to be the same as @1900, strokes have been level, cancer has increased.
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Something positive:
You may be one of the 200,000,000 US citizens who thinks they are lactose intolerant. If you look closely you will find no actual evidence to support the idea that your sensitivity to milk has anything to do with lactose and a lot of evidence showing pasteurization to be the problem.
You may think that milk is for baby cows. The truth is not even baby cows can live on pasteurized milk. Milk and honey are the only articles of diet whose sole function in nature is food.
You may think we don’t need raw milk. Yes it’s true, there are other healthy foods but what could be simpler than milk. Raw grass fed A2 milk is a complete food familiar to most Americans that requires little to no supplementation. No other food has so much potential for good.
You may even think that the organic non homogenized milk you bought last week at the supermarket was raw, nope it wasn’t.
If you just don’t like the taste of milk that’s fine but remember a lot of health-foods take time to acquire a taste for and raw milk is still the only healthy food for infants.
Raw milk could easily end the health-care crises in this country and prove to be a gold mine in our own back yard.
Mike Grimm 3/31/2013
Reminds me of this article (and he has a few others which are quite similar): http://www.tendergrassfedmeat.com/2010/10/05/call-it-medical-not-mediterranean/
And another: http://www.tendergrassfedmeat.com/2011/03/01/eat-fat-live-long%e2%80%94the-real-food-of-okinawa/
And one more: http://www.tendergrassfedmeat.com/2011/03/21/real-food-wise-and-robust-old-age/
Have a happy April foolish day.
http://www.victoryseeds.com/corn.html
http://www.heirloomseeds.com/corn.htm
http://www.tradewindsfruit.com/corn_seeds.htm
http://www.gourmetseed.com/category/gourmet_seed.vegetable_seed.corn_and_popcorn/
If one wants changes to occur, then one needs to be willing to campaign for those changes. Simply complaining about them never brings about a change. A couple of people on this forum have pointed out that to bring about a change, one needs to show up & support any of the court cases, write to your legislatures, organize groups to inform & mentor others, write letters to the editors of local papers, even write letters to local media, hold info sharing meetings of neighbors and/or friends in one’s home, etc. The list can go on & on, but if one just “sits” at home, complain via a computer, nothing is going to happen. I hold info sharing meetings in my home at least once a month, sometimes twice a month, which has enlightened many more people to what is going on & how they can help to bring about a change. They then go home & hold their own meetings & encourage everyone to continue the message/info sharing. This is how to spread it around. This is only one tiny example of what can be done.
Did you catch on the news this morning, the basketball game where a player leaped into the air & when he came down on his feet, his right lower leg literally snapped in half…a major, major compound fracture, right through the skin & all…yep, sorry, pretty graphic. My first thought as I was watching that this morning was…what the heck has been fed (or not fed) to that person from infant-hood!!! There is no reason that someone cannot jump into the air and land without breaking a leg. There was nothing unusual about the jump, he didn’t twist, he didn’t turn in mid air, he just jumped straight up. This was evidence of something seriously wrong & obviously there was no warning about this disaster potential. I can predict that there will be more of this to come!
Enjoy this video education piece from RAWMI. It puts it all into perspective. What we need is a un disputed track record for high quality raw milk….this will completely diffuse the FDA and their food safety argument against all raw milk. Thanks to Duane Abler for his awesome video production talents. Number three LISTED farmer just went live!! http://Www.rawmilkinstitute.org
When I was in Sacramento back in 2011; at the Co Op in Sacramento, OP milk was $7-8 per 1/2 gallon , usually $1-2 more at the Nugget or other stores. Claravale was comparable in price. A pint of raw cream was $12.
I saw the replay of that fracture. Awful! Yup, for a supposedly healthy young man to have such unhealthy bones is very questionable. I wonder if they will investigate why the bones were so weak to break.
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(2). Most reported STEC infections in the United States are caused by E. coli O157:H7,
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E coli Poisoning Attorney
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Escherichia Coli Definition;
E. coli (Escherichia coli) is one of several types of bacteria that normally inhabit the intestine of humans and animals (commensal organism).
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commensal /com·men·sal/ (kom-men´sil)
1. living on or within another organism, and deriving benefit without harming or benefiting the host.
2. a parasite that causes no harm to the host.
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Miguel already hipped us to the misuse of matching fingerprint technology.
What I see in the medical fields, is actually a stacking of various committees and sub-groups. All too often they are referred to as their consolidated title. The point I would like to make is that I believe the pressure on the consolidated title actually comes from these sub-groups, and that is the way to approach a shift in their positions. Also, in reference to the diversified views of many fields, in would be valuable to seek the underlying philosophical premise under which decisions and commone views are made and work to shift that. My frustration is about the failure to address the componants that make up social perspective and the limited potential that creates to seeking change. It only addresses the outward manifestation, the apparent wrong and not the conditions from which it arises. Even more frustrating is when those conditions are purpetuated by those attempting to make the change.
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The $14.00 per gal. was simply the highest number I could find in a Quick search. I was hoping I’d get more info from you folks. Is it true regular milk is $8.00 a gal. in California? I think it’s under $3 in most other states. My point was that excess regulation increases the price of milk substantially. Do you agree?
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info sharing meeting now that’s a real suggestion. I have already admitted I spend too much time on the web and not enough time outside.
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You know, I had the same idea about that basketball player but I didn’t have the nerve to watch the clip.
Raw milk in the stores in Sacramento,CA is @ $14-$16 per gallon
http://shop.raleys.com/Shop/WeeklyAd.gsn organic valley pasteurized milk 1/2 gal is $3.49 Raleys is not a high end store.
My sister buys her organic milk at Costco 2 gallons $11…. She said regular milk is about $4/gal
Out in rural areas, you can get raw milk for $2-4 gallon in many states.
And Mary, anonymous information trumps bias inference.
From what you write, it appears you have a difficult time believing that people, meaning mostly children, have actually become ill after drinking raw milk contaminated with this pathogen. Do you believe that people became ill in 1993 after eating Jack-in-the-Box hamburgers? Or that people became ill in 2006 after eating Dole packaged spinach?
Thanks for admitting that you believe an anonymous blog poster over scientists. It helps me understand why you write some of the things you do.
And this: http://ourenvironment.berkeley.edu/people_profiles/miguel-altieri/
Mike, the topic of STEC is not about raw milk(But raw milk is the only one you want to make illegal). It is about a specific type of pathogenic E.coli. that has found its way into our food system.(E. coli is one of several types of bacteria that normally inhabit the intestine of humans and animals, a commensal organism). It is irrelevant what food is contaminated with this pathogen.( E. coli doesn’t grow in raw milk.) It doesnt discriminate. Once it is inside the human intestine(It’s already there.), the damage is all the same(It doesn’t affect healthy people.) regardless of what has been eaten(Your health is determined by what you eat.). What information did you find about STEC that contradicted itself?(Think about it, you and I get our information from the same places.)
From what you write, it appears you have a difficult time believing that people, meaning mostly children, have actually become ill(After eating cheese or improperly pasteurized milk.) after drinking raw milk(And many other foods.) contaminated with this pathogen(pathogens not found). Do you believe that people became ill in 1993 after eating Jack-in-the-Box hamburgers?(Not illegal.) Or that people became ill in 2006 after eating Dole(Also not illegal.) packaged spinach?(I’m not going to research those specific outbreaks. They may have found actual contaminate food, I don’t know but you’re right there is no reason to believe those stories either. Have you ever heard anyone say there was a way to prove what caused someones diarrhea? Think about it how would you do that? Mary, I’m not saying that I know that raw milk has never made anyone sick. What I am saying is that I know raw milk has prevented far more illness than it could have ever caused and that pasteurization has taken decades off the lives of most of the people in this country.)
Thanks for admitting that you believe an anonymous blog poster over scientists. It helps me understand why you write some of the things you do.(You are not talking about statements made by Scientist. You are quoting inferences made by businessmen with an enormous conflict of interest.)
I see you like the idea of holding an “info-sharing” get-to-gether…that is a great place to start. That is one type of action & a great way to get others involved. I would also recommend extensive reading, there are so many books out there, written by many incredible people covering aspects of healthier foods, gardening, raw milk (& raw milk products), the history of the phood systems, the history of how we’ve lost the farms, wonderful books by current farmers that have gotten back to true farming, and so on. I highly recommend that you read Nina Planck’s book “Real Food – What to Eat & Why”, plus Joel Salatin’s book “Folks this ain’t normal”, you should be able to check these out at your local library, but you would probably want your own copies to make notes & comments in. Hint: amazon.com is the cheapest place to buy books. There are so many other books, but there just isn’t room here to list them. Just search & you will find some amazing books out there on all of these subjects.
Yes, that poor youngster had a devasting accident that they still don’t have an explanation for why it happened. In the medical circles, I heard that there is some speculation of possible bone cancer. I hope & pray that that is not the case, but I can definitely attest to a significant increase in devastating child illnesses, diseases & health defects. For the past month I have been working with the pediatric cardiac interventional labs at Children’s Hospital Orange County & I am just devastated at all the ill & compromised children, from new born to teens!! I just breaks my heart!
And much as I cringe when I see people take cheap pot shots at others and preach restraint in our confrontational postings… (I’m talking to you, Mary McComical for calling Miguel an anonymous crackpot poster before checking the facts.) Do Marler lawyers have science PHD’s?.
Ooops, I think I just committed that which I accuse of, please excuse me Mary but please beware of reality, it bites back.
The “components that make up social perspective” is pretty vast, especially in large groups. Even within a family, perspectives can be diverse. (If I am on the wrong tract, let me know). And there are those who may lean towards a certain belief, yet fear voicing or acting on it because of potential reprisals.
“would be valuable to seek the underlying philosophical premise under which decisions and commone views are made and work to shift that.”
How would you go about seeking the “underlying philosophical premise….”?
My theory is that many if not most baby boomers and those younger, have had it instilled in their brains that all foods should be produced certain ways, e.g. all milk should be pasteurized.
Even explaining that during the early part of the last century, before pasteurization, cows in the city were living in unsanitary quarters and fed swill which made them ill, thus producing toxic milk and in turn making people sick or even killing them. Maybe, because people are so far removed from their foods, it doesn’t have meaning to them?
We deliver our half gallon to the stores at $6.65 they take it up from there. What kills me is that the store mark up profit on our half gallon is equal to the cost of an entire gallon of CAFO dead stuff…
I got a call from Montana this afternoon. The raw milk bill is in trouble. It passed the assembly but is getting eaten alive in the senate. They want help. I suggested reinstituting standards, but using an outside third party to collect data and do audits. Ie. RMAC or RAWMI. This keeps it cheap for Montana and gives the farmers a full exemption but still would have standards. The bill author is going to try this approach. Cow shares are alive in Montana and not effected by the bill. We will see what happens.
accumulate in the body because the body has no knowledge of how to break them down. We have learned from bioremediation in the environment that some microbes can break these substances down. When xenobiotics accumulate to a level at which our normal bacterial janitors can not tolerate , the bacteria in our bodies that can tolerate this toxic environment multiply and begin to degrade these xenobiotics. Diarrhea and vomiting are ways that the body can rapidly eliminate large quantities of the degradation products without damaging delicate organs like the skin and kidneys. Of course microbes that tolerate these toxic environments are the only ones that will be found in the stool . That does not mean that they are causing the diarrhea and vomiting. This is one of those unexamined assumptions that we are not allowed to question. No one with any credentials could question this and still have any credibility left. Although many scientists do understand this and don’t let on.
“at least six different tests with six different enzymes need to be indistinguishable before there is any probability that you are looking at related organisms. Two enzymes are the standard used and the results are rarely reproducible.”
I agree, basing results on assumption is not justifiable.
When people send in cheek swabs for DNA testing to find out the potential for “diseases”, the results vary from lab to lab, test to test and even the person reading the results doesn’t always come up with the same results. There is little consistency.
When we look at human fingerprints, each person has a unique pattern. They use this same language when referring to bacteria.
I took this quote from the PulseNet website.
PulseNet participants perform standardized molecular subtyping (or fingerprinting) of foodborne disease-causing bacteria by pulsed-field gel electrophoresis (PFGE). PFGE can be used to distinguish strains of organisms such as Escherichia coli O157:H7, Salmonella, Shigella, Listeria, or Campylobacter at the DNA level. DNA fingerprints, or patterns, are submitted electronically to a dynamic database at the CDC. These databases are available on-demand to participantsthis allows for rapid comparison of the patterns.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1500528
“In many cases, PFGE data failed to discriminate strains of closely related MLVA types (Figure 8). For example, several isolates in MLVA clusters B, C and D were indistinguishable by PFGE. ”
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0001159
In the link below, the first link “Molecular Subtyping for Escherichia coli O157:H7 ..” explains the non-exact of e coli fingerprinting.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=related:bytMgqoVuSoJ:scholar.google.com/&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&ei=cjtcUd6oC9T1qwGfy4CoDw&ved=0CEkQzwIwBDgK
The problem with the fingerprint analogy is that microbes can change their “fingerprint” in just a few generations, which for them, can be just hours/days.
I believe this is what Miguel is pointing out, among other issues.
I’ve heard doctors, professors, nurse practitioners, along with a multitude of other professionals who voice quietly their disagreement with the status quo. It happens more than people realize.
It was in the 1840s when a physician figured out washing hands correlated with death after childbirth. He was laughed at.
I think Miguels efforts at critically demonstrating the complexity and possible shortcomings of PFGE testing are very important. His unwillingness to be indoctrinated by bureaucrats who have grasped on to this technology and establish it as the be all and end all of truth is a reflection of his free spirited and independent nature.
The following court ruling in favor of Mead Johnson & Co. demonstrates how only a company of their stature and resources would have the ability to challenge the bureaucrats and their use and abuse of a technology such as PFGE. What hope does a lone farmer have against such a juggernaut?
http://www.faegrebd.com/webfiles/Minn.%20Ruling%20Saps%20Power%20Of%20Genetic%20Links%20In%20Food%20Suits.pdf
Law360, New York (March 07, 2013, 8:09 PM ET) — In nixing an infant formula contamination suit against Mead Johnson & Co. LLC last week, a Minnesota federal judge said a genetic test was insufficient to link the product to the illness an unprecedented finding that could offer companies a new way out of foodborne-illness litigation.
In many outbreaks, health officials use PFGE analyses with multiple enzymes, or an even more reliable test known as a multiple-locus variable-number tandem repeat analysis, or MLVA, attorneys said. But the ruling should still serve as a reminder to plaintiffs that genetic tests are just a tool in foodborne illness suits, and one that needs to be supplemented with other evidence, they said.
Ken
And for the record, it is a state’s right to choose if raw milk should be legal. I believe it is to be made legal for purchase, it should have safety regulations attached. A raw milk free for all will only end in disaster. For example, Iowa wanted to sell raw milk from the farm with out any type of oversite or safety standards. I can’t support that.
http://www.billfoster.com/issues/science/
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,894471,00.html
http://www.nacional.hr/en/clanak/38074/a-scientist-in-the-us-has-to-also-be-a-businessman
But my motto has always been “question authority”. Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth while I was in college I made a few eye-opening discoveries about how america really operates. We are being indoctrinated to believe less in ourselves and more in others – so now my motto is question authority – trust no one BUT yourself.
you should read this research. Pulsenet information is not enough information alone to determine genetic relationship between isolates.
http://jcm.asm.org/content/42/12/5502.full
”
Exploration of Biases That Affect the Interpretation of Restriction Fragment Patterns Produced by Pulsed-Field Gel Electrophoresis”
“The uses of PFGE in DNA fingerprinting are much broader than the simple assessment of the relationships of outbreak strains. PFGE is widely used to compare bacterial isolates collected over variable spatial and temporal scales. For example, the National Molecular Subtyping Network for Foodborne Disease Surveillance (PulseNet), sponsored by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, analyzes bacterial isolates from many laboratories in the United States as well as Canada (26). The objective is to rapidly assess the DNA fingerprints of isolates from disease outbreaks and follow-up isolates, even if the cases are geographically and temporally unrelated. Given the importance of the accurate assessment of the relationships of these isolates, particularly when distance and time separate the isolate sources, it is critical to have a thorough understanding of the potential biases inherent in PFGE data collection and analysis. ”
“In practice, the use of PFGE as a DNA fingerprinting technique requires many subjective decisions to be made. This subjectivity increases the variability of the results among studies and, consequently, affects how those results are interpreted.”
“The key point of RFPs in general and PFGE specifically is that while the data infer genetic relationships between isolates, they do not necessarily represent true genetic relationships (6). Differences in RFPs indicate that isolates are genetically different, but the true degree of the genetic distance separating these isolates cannot be determined from RFPs. In contrast, similarities in RFPs do not necessarily mean that isolates are genetically similar. As the number of REs included in PFGE increases, the correlation between RFP similarity and true genetic similarity is likely to increase (6). However, the conclusions drawn from any molecular study must be put in the context of the other information associated with the isolates. The strength of isolate identity is greatest when epidemiologic data support point source or common elements of dissemination. Because of the high degree of subjectivity involved with the interpretation of RFPs, the user must carefully and thoughtfully select the conditions and techniques for performing, analyzing, and using PFGE fingerprints.”
Whatever.
So you feel the overweening gubment regulators are going to be able to “help farmers produce a safe product”? Ah, well, yes. Wouldn’t that be great. Tell me again, how many deaths from raw milk? How many deaths from the supposedly overseen production of pasteurized milk? Pasteurized milk is produced in pure filth. Raw milk farms are almost always spanking clean. Dairy farmers are much better at knowing their own production standards than some gubment regulator would EVER know, and testing isn’t going to change that. Regulators and regulations are mostly just in the way of a farmer trying to do his work. It seems to me it’s the regulators who need to start following a decent protocol. They do almost everything wrong from step A to step Z.
Just because Iowa wanted to pass a bill to produce raw milk without gubment oversight and regulation, doesn’t mean it wouldn’t have “safety standards”. Do you honestly think that dairy farmers don’t follow any sort of safety practices? No dairy farmer wants an unsafe product, which is why they’re usually very very careful about protocol which is why I trust them and their milk much more than any other product on the planet – without testing.
miguel recently cited a research article that discovered an inverse correlation between gastric H. pylori and the prevalence of asthma. (No response came from the other side.) Some call helicobacter pylori the world’s most successful pathogen. How so then? Sounds like there may be something fundamentally wrong with the medical paradigm.
Host immune gene polymorphisms, host colonization without illness, the protective qualities of bacterial diversity (including the presence of so-called pathogens) have been documented and discussed by microbiologists for a long time. Might the problem be that we have not properly inter-linked that knowledge with our knowledge of medical, farming, and other systems? Could it be that there really is no such thing as an isolated system?
**********************
Mary recently said, it is a state’s right to choose if raw milk should be legal. It is not merely semantics to point out that States have no rights. People do, and people in turn afford their governments with powers. Sometimes, as governments grow in size and complexity, the simple notion of basic human rights gets lost in tangles of misunderstanding, and as a result, States are given more power than they ought to have, or are tacitly or directly given freedom to exercise powers they were never expressly allowed. One of those complex tangles has ensnared and fouled our understanding of commerce and personal economics. People have come to believe that the laws of commerce can overrule human rights. That is false, but the idea will have power so long as people allow it.
Fail to defend our basic human rights, and the current thought paradigm—whatever it is at the time, right or wrong, correct or incorrect—washes over society like a tsunami, homogenizing everything and everyone into its patterns and processes. There goes our social, economic, and to a degree even thought diversity, and with it our strength, resiliency, and well-being. Just like what happens to us physiologically when we lose our biological diversity.
Bill Anderson is a parton on WI farms being raided, then moves on.
Bill A admits to having “friends” at DATCP
Bill A works with RAWMI
RAWMI is rejected by farmers in the original group that became the Wisconsin Raw Milk Association
Bill A develops another new source of milk for his cheese, St Brigids Meadows in WI
Owner of St. Brigids, Vince Hunt, is a main player in the Wisconsin Raw Milk Association
Wisconsin Raw Milk Association developed the bill that will be introcuded in WI in the next few weeks
George Siemons, CEO of Organic Valley allegedly gets his raw milk from Vince Hunt
Wheres this goen? You all decide. This info is all hear say tho, coming from those with “strong views” in those pesky festoring “grass Roots” orgniizations. They just come along and fuck everything up don’t they? Just sayin.
OK Now I get it. You actually don’t believe raw milk can harbor E.coli 0157:H7 or I guess any other STEC.(I said they don’t grow in raw milk. Some even die in raw milk. And there is no reason to believe they would cause diarrhea if consumed in raw milk.) And you see scientists as business men.(I didn’t say scientists are business men although they often do work for them. What I said was that you are not quoting scientists.) And that huge foodborne outbreaks probably didn’t happen.(You can’t call it an outbreak if it is constant. And I’m sure that food is the primary cause of illness in this country, ahead of chemicals and overwork.)
And for the record, it is a state’s right to choose if raw milk should be legal.(So you are saying that raw milk is the only food that should be illegal. And for the record it is the people that have the right to say what is to be illegal not the state.) I believe if it is to be made legal for purchase(It is legal to purchase and consume.), it should have safety regulations attached.(It already does.) A raw milk free for all will only end(The nations health-care crisis.) in disaster. For example, Iowa wanted to sell raw milk from the farm with out any type of over-site(Other than consumers with higher standards than the state.) or safety standards(I don’t know that there is any food more toxic than pasteurized milk.) I can’t support that.(So you agree with most of the people on this sight.)
Baily Crane,
Bill Anderson can’t comment for himself, since I banned him from the blog some days back (for inappropriate behavior, most immediately for his attacks on Vernon Hershberger). Bill may have lots of faults, but I personally don’t believe one of them is that he is some kind of secret agent working against food rights. I don’t doubt there are secret agents out there, in Wisconsin and in other states (we have had acknowledgment by regulators of their existence on a number of occasions), but they generally wouldn’t be as out there and obvious as Bill is. If Bill is working against food rights, and he has declared himself on many occasions to be against private arrangements like herd shares and food clubs, he is doing so right out in plain view, and that’s his right. You can disagree with him, not include him in your organizational affairs, but trying to brand him as some kind of hired troublemaker is unfair, especially if you don’t have evidence to back up your suggestion.
No, I suggest you look a little further afield for your more serious enemies, in the legislature, in the governor’s office, in the judiciary, in DATCP and the FDA and the CDC, and in the big dairy companies and their trade organization lobbying groups.
Yes, when I found the name at the top of the paper I just figured it was the same Miguel. I wonder if that was just a coincidence (both of their names being Miguel) or if the Miguel who posts here is using that as a screen name . . . not that it matters, I guess.
At any rate, it was an honest mistake on your part and mine. Although you’re right about abrasive personal remarks.
http://www.cornucopia.org/2013/04/genetically-modified-wheat-may-silence-human-genome/
The Cornicopia piece on GMO wheat scares the next generation out of me!
Sounds like mankind is going to kill itself off….pretty damn soon. The only thing that gives me any hope is that bacteria generally want to evolve and survive. After enough dumb ass humans kill themselves….the rest will adapt and adjust and hopefully thrive having learned from the obvious stupidly of the CSIRO and Monsanto Lemmings. Just because we can control and invent life….does not mean that we should. There are some things you just do not mess with….ever!!!
Mary….I hope you do not take the comments of some of the commenters here very seriously. Some are functionally retarded and shoot down Chem Trails with brass tubes filled with marijuana smoke. Stick with sanity. Save your wind.
I find it amazing that someone who puts themselves up front, allowing others to believe they are some sort of leader, would stoop so low as to call others names as if they were grade schoolers on the playground. Definitely not leader material.
http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=28599
D. Smith, no, nothing affecting Tomm Culhane. Believe me, I don’t take that action (banning people) lightly. Just try to do the best I can.
http://www.cornucopia.org/2012/08/activists-grill-producers-of-modified-corn/
Yep. I agree. The fact that this arrogance is spilling over from one industry to another is what’s really scary. I don’t think CONgress has any idea what they’ve unleashed. Can you even imagine some of the other projects monsanto et al are working on right now? Makes me shudder.
Here is one scientist……
I am an trained PhD. U-W Madison, post doc-MIT . I trained in, and ran a molecular genetics lab for 26 years-experimental and analytical incorporating the best of developing technologies. I have personally ran or supervised 100,000s of PAGE and PCR gels and analysis. Considering that the robustness of such analysis depends on the controls and probes that are used. We always ran multiple controls for each analysis. The statistical correlations make such analysis incredibly exact. Calling this a fingerprint is really a misnomer, since the analysis is many magnitudes of accuracy beyond the hyped claims with fingerprinting-which is not that accurate except in movies and on TV. In fact it is a genetic DNA test-“finger printing” comes from the early days of this analysis (the 70’s-and I was there) to try to explain exactly what we had discovered and were developing.)
As in any type of analysis it important to not only understand the technological basis, but also the specifics of how experiments are set up and designed. Controls and the exact types of probes and their number are absolutely critical.
Out of hand to dismiss this technology without having a deeper understanding of the basis and the science behind it is foolish. No doubt there is bad science, sloppy experiments, and scientific experimental designs to prove a preconceived hypothesis (whether intentional or not)-but these things in no way diminish the importance and power of PAGE and PCR technology. Also-there are no absolutes-one looks at multiple pieces of data and correlations in any mature analysis-and again that does not diminish the power of this technology.
I continue to respectfully disagree with Miguel. But as always I strongly support our quest and personal Rights to choose.
Ron, thanks much for this input. It’s important for us to hear from someone with your background, and without a political ax to grind. I think much of the skepticism that has been expressed about the reliability of the PCR analysis stems from the credibility problems of the public health community, and its increasing tendency to pursue political agendas.
http://www.faegrebd.com/webfiles/Minn.%20Ruling%20Saps%20Power%20Of%20Genetic%20Links%20In%20Food%20Suits.pdf
The article states that, The test, known as a pulsed-field gel electrophoresis, or PFGE, analysis, is used widely in foodborne illness litigation. The decision may be the first time a PFGE analysis has been excluded as evidence because a judge deemed it unreliable, attorneys said. It opens the door for other companies to attack the reliability of PFGE analyses that use only one enzyme, which is still the standard for many state health departments, according to Faegre Baker Daniels partner Sarah Brew. If I am not mistaken I think that this is what Miguel was trying to point out among other things.
Ken
Just wanted to share that with our little community here, thought you’d like it.
Oh, and D. that was also an awesome post.
Hannah,
Thank you for clarifying how policy evolves at the National Farmers Union. It’s encouraging to learn about the possibilities for grassroots actions.