It’s been a time of slow news on the raw milk front the last few years. The big reason is that producers of unpasteurized dairy appear to have gotten their collective arms around contamination challenges, generating much less news about outbreaks of illness from pathogens like E.coli O157:H7 and campylobacter. That has meant less opportunity for the nay-sayers to do their fear-mongering than was once the case.
But that doesn’t mean the fear-mongering has ended. A new study raises a specter of danger for raw milk drinkers: antibiotic-resistant bacteria rather than beneficial lactic acid bacteria are shown to dominate the microflora of raw milk left to ferment, or clabber, at room temperature.
A team of five scientists from the University of California in Davis has spent the last three years sampling and measuring more than 2,000 retail milk samples—raw and pasteurized— collected from stores in California, Idaho, Arizona, South Carolina, and Maine.
In a paper published in the journal Microbiome, the researchers stated that “the results presented here suggest that spontaneous fermentation does not grow beneficial lactic acid bacteria and instead, enrichment of ARGs (antibiotic resistance genes) occurred even within a short period of RT (room temperature) incubation. In addition to ARGs enriched due to intentional RT fermentation, proper cold-chain maintenance can fail during transportation from the raw milk producer to the consumer or in the home of the consumer, and therefore inadvertent short-term RT incubations can also happen. Such incubation likely enriches populations of bacteria in milk which in turn contributes to a modified resistome with elevated prevalence of ARGs.”
At this point, you may be wondering: what are the dangers of adding antibiotic resistant bacteria to my gut flora? While it certainly doesn’t sound like a great thing to be ingesting, the short answer is no one knows for sure. Heck, researchers don’t even know where the antibiotic-resistant bacteria come from, especially since much of the raw milk is produced by dairies that are ostensibly organic, and claim their cows are grass fed. As the U CA researchers put it in their paper: “A better understanding of the diversity of ARG content as well as the biogeography, health risk associations and methods to reduce this ARG reservoir, is clearly warranted.”
The research team actually concluded that raw milk kept refrigerated during its journey through the supply chain does okay. Compared with pasteurized milk, “Raw milk samples had the highest prevalence of viable bacteria which were measured as all aerobic bacteria, coliform, and Escherichia coli counts, and their microbiota was distinct from other types of milk.”
In a blog post at the U CA, Davis, the lead author, Jinxin Liu, states, “We don’t want to scare people, we want to educate them. If you want to keep drinking raw milk, keep it in your refrigerator to minimize the risk of it developing bacteria with antibiotic-resistant genes.” The researcher adds: “Two things surprised us,. We didn’t find large quantities of beneficial bacteria in the raw milk samples, and if you leave raw milk at room temperature, it creates dramatically more antimicrobial-resistant genes than pasteurized milk.”
The blog post begins to fear monger when it states, “Bacteria with antimicrobial-resistant genes, if passed to a pathogen, have the potential to become ‘superbugs,’ so that pharmaceuticals to treat infection or disease no longer work. Each year, almost 3 million people get an antibiotic-resistant infection, and more than 35,000 people die, according to the Centers for Disease Control.”
The study leaves any number of questions unanswered, including: What is the microflora situation with raw milk sold directly to consumers from farms via herdshare and individual sales? Where does the antibiotic resistance come from in organic raw milk? Why do the beneficial bacteria get overwhelmed by the antibiotic resistant bacteria? And how is production of kefir, based on addition of starter bacteria, affected by such milk? Clearly there is more research to be done here. In the meantime, raw milk drinkers buying their milk at retail outlets might want to think twice before they clabber their milk.
Fear mongering for sure. Antibiotic resistant genes are everywhere. Thanks to antibiotic abuse. They are found on organic dairies and every where. I was are aware of this study two years ago. When raw milk is super clean, the lactobacillus bacteria are reduced. All that are left are random bacteria.
What is important here is this. The benefit to raw milk does not come from the bacteria it comes from the protein and enzyme systems found in raw milk plus the diversity of bacteria.
Where is the blame for antibiotic resistant bacteria??? It should lay at the feet of pharma
But instead it is used to fear monger against those that are super healthy with strong gut gut micro biomes.
Bacteria are very smart and adapt to resist death.
If you want lots of bacteria drink Raw Kefir. State law forbids dirt in raw milk. So raw milk is super clean.
By the way. There is zero science or evidence that shows that antibacterial genes have been shared with pathogens and that swapping has caused illness. Not one person has become sick from that pathway.
UC Davis researchers need to study raw milk Kefir.
Great reply on raw milk the healthiest drink on the planet. If people don’t already know the benefits of raw milk I have little hope for them.
Thanks, Mark, for the elaboration and explanation about the lack of evidence pointing up dangers from antibacterial genes. I sometimes get the feeling when public health people conduct research into one or another aspect of raw milk, they feel like they are entering this alternative universe where the inhabitants have this strange habit of consuming weird and crazy food….and the scientists are trying to somehow explain it in rational terms…..except they never can.
Mark, I think you missed the point of the research article….keep raw milk at 40 degress or less to prevent the growth of ARG. When you make kefir with raw milk, don’t you leave it at room temperature?
Mary, the big difference between making kefir and clabbering is you make kefir with kefir grains, or starter grains, of beneficial bacteria. I used to make kefir by heating the milk to about 90 degrees (F) for several minutes. Whether you let the milk sit or heat it, the idea is the good bacteria multiply and become the basis of the final product. With clabbering, you simply let the milk sit, with the existing bacteria multiplying.
Could write a book on the emerging threats to raw milk. Not a book on raw milk as a threat. Threats change as we overcome each of them as they appear. As we adapt to threats, those that appose raw milk create new threats.
What the researchers don’t appreciate is all great research out of the EU in support of raw milk and its huge benefits to health.
If you want lactobacillus in your raw milk put in a pinch of dirt or some culture. In 2007 state law changed and requirements were set for ultra clean raw milk Now that we achieved those standards they suggest that being too clean is a threat.
RAWMI has worked hard to reduce the incidence of pathogens and illness from raw milk.
Now all we get is a kick in the gut.
Turn the other cheek. ?❤️?
Hold the show!!!!
Stop breast feeding!!! Human breast milk will certainly be fatal with all that antibiotic resistant bacterial genetic material floating around in it.
UC Davis researchers did not really think before spending all that time and money on their research. Antibiotic resistant genes care with us like it or not. They will be found in high levels in human breast milk.
Their point is completely and mute!! To think that bovine raw milk consumption stands alone was incredibly narrow in focus. Antibiotic residence genes will be in all mammalian milk!
Mark, do nursing mothers leave the breast milk at room temperature for 24 hours before feeding it to a baby? I don’t think so. The research article focused on what happened when you left all kinds of milk at room temperature for 24 hours (and for lesser times). On page 4 it states, “Antibiotic Resistance Genes were undetected in both HTST and raw milk samples at the first timepoint; however, the 24 room temperature -incubation dramatically increased the measurable ARG’s in raw milk microbiomes by comparison to HTST milk.”
So you state that ARG’s are everywhere now. I would agree with you. The question is, why when left at room temperature does it grow in raw milk and does this cause some unintended consequences if you drink clabbered milk? Does the same thing happen with Kefir? Again, the biggest takeway of all of this is to make sure raw milk is refrigerated at 40 degrees to prevent ARG’s from growing. Maybe in this day and age it is not a good idea to make and drink clabbered milk since the fallout of antibiotic consumption as affected all aspects of life.
Remember once upon a time you thought E.coli was not a big deal showing up in raw milk because you believed raw milk had the capacity to kill pathogens. Maybe UC Davis discovered new information that may be helpful for you since you produce raw milk. Don’t be so defensive.
Mary, where I came from people didn’t even have refrigerators yet seemed pretty healthy overall. Just found a cool place, out of the sun seemed to be enough unless you were going to store it for weeks.
Oh and in the old days, women didn’t milk themselves to save it for weeks or even days. Just just did it naturally when their baby cried because it was hungry.
Thank you Mark, Your comments on David’s great material costantly improves my underatanding. I would like to know more about Epigenetics, perhaps David could write about it as it is closely alligned to the reasons why Organic Food and Raw Milk is so important in our diet, and then you might comment.
“They don’t know”???
I think they have a pretty damn good idea… Any honest and objective scientist can’t help but realize that manipulating the environment via pesticide/herbicides/biocides and the genetics of living creatures via GMOs (especially microbes) to the extent with which the they do and based on their grossly lacking level of knowledge, is not a wise… In fact, to claim they don’t know is a disingenuous statement on their part.
As I stated previously, “The powers that be and the scientists they employ recklessly jump into this labyrinth of biological complexities breaching natural barriers and disregarding and disrespecting the unique genetic background of life forms with only surface knowledge of what they are doing. Regrettably basic scientific research is being superseded by research for profit, or by other unethical self-serving reasons. Millions of dollars are spent developing and narrow mindedly promoting pernicious technologies that vested interests fully intend to recapture a return on, irrespective of the harm that will result. The importance of symbiosis and balance in nature is being systematically and surreptitiously threatened by narrow minded scientists… a prime example is the release into the environment of GMOs and their concomitant antibiotic resistance marker genes”.
Richard Strohman, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus, Department of Molecular and Cell Biology, University of California at Berkeley sums it up well… “When you insert a single gene into a plant or an animal, the technology will work. You will be able to move that gene from organism A to organism B. You will be able to know that the transfer was successful. You will be able to know that the gene is being expressed, and even that the function of the gene is being expressed. So you’ll get the desired characteristic. But you will also get other effects that you couldn’t have predicted from your original assumptions. You will have also produced changes in the cell or the organism as a whole that are unpredictable. And that’s what the science is having to deal with… Genes exist in networks, interactive networks which have a logic of their own. The technology point of view does not deal with these networks. It simply addresses genes in isolation. But genes do not exist in isolation. And the fact that the industry folks don’t deal with these networks is what makes their science incomplete and dangerous. If you send these new genetic structures out into the world, into hundreds of thousands of acres, you’re going into the world with a premature application of a scientific principle.
‘We’re in a crisis position where we know the weakness of the genetic concept, but we don’t know how to incorporate it into a new, more complete understanding. Monsanto knows this. DuPont knows this. Novartis knows this. They all know what I know. But they don’t want to look at it because it’s too complicated and it’s going to cost too much to figure out.
‘The number of questions, the number of possibilities for what happens to a cell, to the whole organism when you insert a foreign gene, are almost incalculable. And the time it would take to assess the infinite possibilities that arise is beyond the capabilities of computers. But that’s what you get when you’re dealing with living systems.”
Indeed, and this is what organic farmers raw milk producers have to contend with. Once released into the environment the sky is the limit with respect to horizontal transfer and the extent at which these altered microbes and genes will proliferate in the environment and alter life forms… Organic farming is not immune to these invasive and insidious technologies…
Ken, Monsanto along with other major spenders that influence science research and how it’s presented, like Merk, Astrazenega, Novartis, Dupont, Pfizer, etc and also including teaching institutions like Harvard, MIT, BU, UMass,Yale, BC, which all used equipment I installed or worked on, are all run by people with big pockets and ulterior motives so take their results and decisions with a grain of salt. So call me a skeptical heretic, I had to keep my job so stayed quiet then but those days are long past. It’s called reverse research when you set out to find results that support your cause and ignore the rest of the facts, very common these days.
Original Research ARTICLE
Front. Microbiol., 03 April 2020 | https://doi.org/10.3389/fmicb.2020.00500
Evasion of Plant Innate Defense Response by Salmonella on Lettuce
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2020.00500/full
One of the biggest take aways of the studies was that nearly 400 samples were taken. Not one of them contained a single pathogen. Not one.
Kefir is acidic and pathogenic bacteria are inhibited from growing. When raw milk is superclean it won’t clabber very well anyway. It really helps to have some dirt in it to clabber. So if you want clabbered raw milk add Kefir grains or some other intentional culture.
Antibiotic resistant bacteria are not a threat unless you try and kill them off. Then they win while the rest are killed, adapt or mutate.
This is nature’s rule of law. It is observed everywhere.
“How long do you think it will take these researchers to figure out what foods make healthier gut microbes?”
https://www.thelunaticfarmer.com/blog/7/9/2020/oh-microbe-complexity
Michele Jay Russell one of the lead researchers was the FDA paid Phd that helped establish Food Safety News.
This is much ado about nothing new! Antibiotic genes are everywhere! At high levels in breast raw milk.
Mark, I’m trying not to laugh. Michele did not help establish Food Safety News. You really need to get your facts straight. As for antibiotic resistant genes in breast milk, can you please put a link to this research studies? I would like to read them. Especially curious if they had the milk sit at room temperature for 24 hours and then tested because we know all mothers do this prior to feeding it to their children, versus straight from the breast. LOL Sometimes your remind me of Donald Trump in the way he spins information.
Mark,
I do also want to comment about how the scientists did not find probiotics in retail raw milk–“Pseudomonadaceae dominated raw milk with limited levels of lactic acid bacteria”. Isn’t this what Sally Fallon and you claim are the reasons someone should spend $20 a gallon on raw milk for…the good bacteria that only minimally exists.
The Conclusion of the study: Despite advertised “probiotic” effects, our result indicate that raw milk microbiota has MINIMAL LACTIC ACID BACTERIA. But we do know every 5 years you have a pathogenic E.coli outbreak that damages children’s kidneys. Not sure it is worth the risk with only minimal lactic acid bacteria in the milk.
What are you thoughts?
that’s a pretty high standard of proof you have to meet – Mrs McGonigle Martin – your contention that “every 5 years you have a pathogenic E. coli outbreak that damages children’s kidneys” ?
Since Mark McAffee & Co have been in the raw milk biz over 2 decades, then you will be able to point us to evidence for each of 4 instances where a child has had his or her kidneys damaged directly consequent from consuming milk produced by Organic Pastures dairy.
With all the expertise you pretend to have about this issue, you’re aware that in Court,
“the nature of evidence is that it can be tested. If it cannot be tested, it isn’t evidence”. If you can’t produce evidence supporting your allegation, then it’s just more of your patented drive-by internet smear tactic … and this time you crossed the line breaching the settlement you made with McAffee to do with not defaming him/ Organic Pastures
let’s have the facts re real cases to which you refer … names, dates, lab reports, contact information in order we can test what you say. If you cannot produce that much, then your allegation is just more of the smear tactics you dump in to this forum for years.
in Court, when the Judge takes your point but doesn’t agree, he’ll say “Move on Mrs McGonigle”. Since you rode in to town on your hobbyhorse, REAL MILK has been normalized for distribution in nearly every state in the Union. You lost your cause. Best you find something worthwhile to do
Thank you Gordon, you made my day. Like you even know what was in our settlement agreement from 13 years ago. OMG LOL. Really Gordon. I have to thank you. I needed a good laugh.
the term “bigot” is thrown around too loosely these days. Its basic meaning is = one who continues to hold a peculiar opinion after the facts have proven that position to be in error Over the last decade you came off the fool … kvetching against the Campaign for REAL MILK while 40 states changed their laws to legalize it. Gee … what is it those legislatures know, that you cannot grasp Mrs McGonnigle?
your accusation about harms done by milk from Organic Pastures dairy is extremely serious. IF you have facts to substantiate it, they are crucial for people to know when deciding to consume raw milk. But if you won’t post that = ostensible = information on this forum, then your allegation is just another internet drive-by smear
as for your settlement with Organic Pastures >>> simple. Post the wording. Put up or shut up
“PLACEBO FIXATION”
https://www.thelunaticfarmer.com/blog/7/13/2020/placebo-fixation
Indeed, “The whole face mask thing is creating sanctimonious people on one side and irritation on the other” and is without a doubt, “a Laurel and Hardy gig” that repeats itself across North America and the world.
This morning I went to town and when pulling into the parking space on main street, I noticed two women standing about two to three feet apart on the sidewalk having a discussion with their masks pulled down under their chins so that they could puff on their cigarettes…
Ken, I agree that the mask thing is creating needless conflict. But I take issue with the statement that it “is without a doubt, ‘a Laurel and Hardy gig’ that repeats itself across North America and the world.” It is primarily an American battle, another in a seemingly endless series of battles big and small. But for the rest of the world, masks are widely accepted for what they are–a means to reduce spread of the virus, and there is little or no conflict…..and the Covid problem has been reduced to manageable proportions. Mainly in the U.S., the battle goes on, as does the Covid problem.
Dear Mary and all,
After attending years of IMGC conferences and learning more about the milk genome. I have learned and I have evolved greatly. Raw milk benefits are not bacteria centric. Bacteria are one small part of the “Rawmilk food system”. Raw milk is a complete food and a system that builds immune systems and establishes a gut micro biome for babies and those that consume raw milk.
Mary…. I spoke with Michele Jay Russel. She told me directly about her involvement with Bill Marler and establishing Food Safety News. Michele is funded by the FDA and her lab does projects for the FDA and others at UC Davis. I have toured her lab and know exactly of what I speak.
I have also learned that there really is no way to make you happy. RAWMI has successfully led an effort to decrease illnesses from raw milk consumption, both at home and in Canada. There is no denial of this. Two peer reviewed and publish articles lay out the facts.
With the advent of Test & Hold and use of BAX PCR RT, the days of watching for another illness are done. Every batch is tested before release.
If you don’t know this already: I learn, I stay in school, I listen, I adapt and I am resilient.
My team does the same. It’s to bad the news does not promote the tens of thousands of kids that are thriving on raw milk. Strong bodies, strong immune systems, recovery from asthma, few colds few ear infections.
I will rejoice in this celebration with the parents that call me to thank us for our healing whole food.
I invite you to celebrate life and prevention of illness. It’s one hell of a lot more meaningful than preying on and awaiting the next potential illness.
I forgive you for what you do not know. Take the high ground. Please let 14 years ago go to a resting place in your heart.
Most kind regards. ❤️???
David,
As with the consumption raw milk, avoidance of toxic vaccines and free speech, this conflict is a natural result of what happens when self-determination and economic self-sufficiency is arbitrarily interfered with by the powers that be… I refuse to bow down to this current germaphobe narrative and all the ill-advised rituals its priggish proponents attempt to compel us to participate in. Fortunately, there still are businesses that manage to evade the prying eyes of busybodies, continuing to operate without getting completely caught up in all this coronavirus tomfoolery.
I should add that there is a cost to our cantankerousness–we now are not allowed to travel to much of the civilized world, including Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. Among those countries on the short list that still accept Americans are Albania, Ecuador, the Dominican Republic, Serbia, and Tanzania. How far we have fallen. You might say we are now one of those sh*thole countries our supreme leader once mocked because its citizens wanted to travel here.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/travel/american-travelers-restrictions-coronavirus.html?action=click&algo=als_engaged1_desk_filter&block=editors_picks_recirc&fellback=false&imp_id=646868517&impression_id=509857413&index=1&pgtype=Article®ion=ccolumn&req_id=364690352&surface=home-featured&action=click&module=editorContent&pgtype=Article®ion=CompanionColumn&contentCollection=Trending
I want to post this new article about the New York Times airing their dirty laundry by an opinion editor who resigned today and why. https://www.foxnews.com/media/bari-weiss-quits-new-york-times-bullying
I know how exciting this must be to you and other (liberal) media haters, but it’s really not a huge deal. First, as you note, this woman who resigned is “an opinion editor.” Most serious media, like the NYTimes and WSJ, have opinion pages and news pages. The people who work for each are separate. So at a place like the NYTimes, where the opinion pages are liberal, those writers who are more conservative are going to often feel insulted. Reverse at WSJ. There, the opinion writers are very conservative. Not many liberal writers even get to a position like this NYTimes writer. I can tell you from experience that, liberal or conservative, journalists and opinion editors often aren’t very nice to each other. This writer really should have known what she was getting herself into, and not started whining so soon.
“priggish” = the perfect word ! I’m going to use it to combat the bigotry of the Mask Tyrants
This is what the New York Times (and most of the rest of the media) has become:
https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter
Soil Microbes and Human Health
https://www.agriculture.com/crops/soil-health/soil-health-means-better-human-health?MvBriefArticleId=15213
I really enjoy reading articles such as this… It certainly puts into perspective our overall lack of knowledge with respect to microbial communities, be it in the soil, water, air and the gut… bacteria, fungi and viruses included. Indeed, and based on this lack knowledge humans actually believe that they can manipulate, via genetic engineering and without serious consequence these microbes to their advantage…
The article states, “The sheer biomass of microbes within a single acre of healthy soil weighs more than 2.7 tons, equivalent to a large SUV. Fathoming the soil microbiome is like trying to chart every star in our galaxy since there are billions and billions of microbes. “We know they’re there,” Fierer says. “We just don’t know what most of them do and how they interact with each other.”
Beware germaphobes you had better increase the concentration of your chlorine rinse, “A single spinach leaf has over 800 different species of bacteria that it gets from the soil and the environment.”
Dr Andrew Kaufman does a much better job at explaining what I have been trying to say throughout this so-called pandemic, among other things.
https://www.facebook.com/HighWireTalk/videos/656133008588730/UzpfSTMzMDcwMDcyMDMwNzI5MDozMzkxMjg1NjgwOTE1NDMw/
Organic Market Growing
https://vegetablegrowersnews.com/news/jim-donald-growth-of-organics-shows-no-sign-of-slowing/
It will be a great day when Biden wins this upcoming election. Not just with a simple majority but a landslide.
We will once again have a normal person running our country with morals, ethics and a big heart.
If you want insanity…. put a deranged immoral moron in charge. You will get deranged, immoral , unethical moronic leadership. Or lack thereof.
When Trump was asked if he loses would he leave the Whitehouse peacefully.
His answer was “ we will see”.
Biden’s response. We know how to remove trespassers in the Whitehouse .
Love it. Finally the spoiled rotten failed rick kid will face the huge list of criminal charges with no crime ring to protect him.
Treason is my top Pick for criminal charge.
Mark
your latest rant goes in the same file as your predictions ‘way back in 2016 ie. “never Trump” and “Pence by Xmas”
4 years’ worth of you polluting the discourse on this forum with your obsession with Donald Trump, resulted in one thing = no-one takes your political opinion seriously, Mark McAffee. Is it that no-one else will let you dump your vitriol on their website?
Stick to the topic of “REAL MILK”. Otherwise, you come off as a stunted adolescent, lost in the 60s. Back then, Venezuela was one of the richest countries in the world. Today, it’s a smoking ruin … the inevitable outworking of your pal Chavez’s version of communism
but nothing is so useless it cannot at least be used as a bad example : Biden’s footsoldiers out there in the streets … chanting their commie slogans … lootin’ / burnin’ / making war against the police … are educating the nation what America would look like, were he to take office
Treatment with Hydroxychloroquine Cut Death Rate Significantly in COVID-19 Patients, Henry Ford Health System Study Shows
https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study
I have no issue with individuals acquiring wealth… providing it is constructive. But using calculated duplicity to do so and developing a toxic injectable genetically engineered product with at least five of the candidate COVID-19 vaccines using one of two human fetal cell lines, and if that is not enough, exempting from liability those who develop such a product(s), is unconscionable…
Who is Getting Rich Off Coronavirus Pandemic?
https://thevaccinereaction.org/2020/07/who-is-getting-rich-off-coronavirus-pandemic/
“As noted by Inequality.org, IPS’ sister site:
‘The top five billionaires—Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Warren Buffett and Larry Ellison—saw their wealth grow by a total of $101.7 billion, or 26%. They captured 17.4% of the total wealth growth of all 600-plus billionaires in the last three months. The fortunes of Bezos and Zuckerberg together grew by nearly $76 billion, or 13% of the $584 billion total.
‘‘This orgy of wealth shows how fundamentally flawed our economic system is,’ said Frank Clemente, ATF’s executive director. ‘In three months about 600 billionaires increased their wealth by far more than the nation’s governors say their states need in fiscal assistance to keep delivering services to 330 million residents.
‘Their wealth increased twice as much as the federal government paid out in one-time checks to more than 150 million Americans. If this pandemic reveals anything, it’s how unequal our society has become and how drastically it must change.17”
Ken Conrad, you forgot Jeff Kushner ( Jared Kushner’s brother) in that list of folks getting “Richer” on the Covid pandemic.
John, If Jeff Kushner has anything to gain it was equality.org the sister site for the “Institute for Policy Studies” that forgot to mention it… I’ve provided a link to their website if you want to take it up with them…I suspect that there are many others who have much to gain from this pandemic ruse.
https://ips-dc.org/inequality-org/
Ontario lawyer files lawsuit against feds, province & CBC over Covid-19 measures & masks”
Rocco Galati recently discussed the upcoming lawsuit against members of the Canadian Government, the CBC, as well as the topic of mandatory masking. Galati is a constitutional lawyer in Ontario and has been practising law for 31 years, he began his career with the federal department of justice.
https://www.muskokapost.com/post/ontario-lawyer-files-lawsuit-against-feds-province-cbc-over-covid-19-measures-masks?fbclid=IwAR2f2wLb02O596ah1nSBdtQydW_eQrqyPmPd9HykS_XBrADzTw-CSFCM0QM