Ron Garthwaite and Collette Cassidy in happier times at Claravale Dairy, in 2008.
It’s been a tough few months for Claravale Dairy, what with being linked to a number of campylobacter illnesses as well as labor problems.
Two months ago, I reported on Claravale Dairy being near financial collapse, due to state-imposed recalls of its raw milk and a suit by two former employees seeking $500,000 in damages because they say they were misclassified, and underpaid.
Just in the last couple weeks, it seemed to get worse when a former Claravale manager (and not one of the two who sued) took Claravale to task for mismanaging the dairy, and its employees. The former manager, Spencer Tregilgas, posted accusations on both my blog’s Facebook page and on a crowdfunding page being used by Claravale to raise money from supporters, alleging that Claravale had intentionally overworked and otherwise exploited its former employees.
Claravale responded by removing the crowdfunding campaign, when it had raised about $26,000 of a targeted $600,000. I hid the Facebook item because i had concerns that Tregilgas’ post contained a number of potentially libelous charges against Claravale’s owners, Ron Garthwaite and Collette Cassidy.
Yet sometimes, when things look worst is when you turn a corner and begin to see the light. And that’s the way it is at Claravale, says Cassidy. In an email, she writes that the former employees “are trying to build a case that we took horrible advantage of them and all of our employees. It’s very sad and pathetic. They had an opportunity of a lifetime here, where we were looking for someone who had the interest and what it takes to learn the business and possibly inherit it.”
Now, she says, “We have a very good crew here. Everyone likes their job and is well paid. That has always been the case.” The three disgruntled employees “had the opportunity to learn from the best in the industry (Ron) but unfortunately thought they knew better.”
In a sense, labor problems have become more of a challenge for Claravale, and other farmers, than safety issues. At both the federal and state levels, regulators and legislators alike are intent on forcing businesses to pay contractors as employees and to pay managers overtime. So far has the pendulum swung that contractors/employees who accept positions knowing what the parameters are, sometimes are tempted to get lawyers to try to change the arrangements after the fact. And places like Claravale, which often can’t afford the extra charges, are put on the brink of going out of business. It even hit the fast-growing car service, Uber, when a California court ruled recently that it should have paid a contractor as an employee.
The safety problems, in that context, seem less weighty. As Cassidy puts it: “We have been milking cows for the production of raw milk here at Claravale Farm every day, twice a day, without a single break, for very nearly 90 years and have still never had a pathogen issue traceable to our facilities or procedures.” The outbreaks of 2012 and earlier this year were more related to the stresses of management than anything else, she suggests.
David, I know it may not be feasible or publicity for legal reasons but have you asked any of “the three disgruntled employees” if they are willing to explain their side of the story and motives even if under an alias? Did they achieve their objectives? Maybe you or they are under a confidentially or court order agreement but obviously you can’t talk about that. Would certainly be interesting and revealing one way or another. Dirty laundry either eventually gets washed or thrown out.
Wouldn’t that be nice Ora Moose. But because David Gumpert does not believe us, no one on here will have the chance to read anything we say. You may email me if you want to read the statement my husband made.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/1v6ygb9hr0x9t02/Corporate_America_Reduced.pdf
USAvsUS.Info
CHALLENGE JURISDICTION
Challenging jurisdiction is one of the best defenses you can make, because if you use
the right argument it is almost impossible for you to lose!
If they attempt to tell you that you can’t question their jurisdiction you can easily
shut them up with these court rulings!
“Once jurisdiction is challenged, the court cannot proceed when it clearly
appears that the court lacks jurisdiction, the court has no authority to
reach merits, but, rather, should dismiss the action.” Melo v. US, 505 F2d
1026.
The law requires proof of jurisdiction to appear on the record of the administrative
agency and all administrative proceedings.” Hagans v Lavine, 415 U. S. 533.
Read US v Lopez and Hagans v Levine both void because of lack of jurisdiction. In
Lopez the circuit court called it right, and in Hagans it had to go to the Supreme
court before it was called right, in both cases, void. Challenge jurisdiction and
motion to dismiss, right off the bat. If you read the supreme Court cases you will
find that jurisdiction can be challenged at any time and in the case of Lopez it was a
jury trial which was declared void for want of jurisdiction. If it [jurisdiction] doesn’t
exist, it can not justify conviction or judgment. …without which power (jurisdiction)
the state CANNOT be said to be “sovereign.” At best, to proceed would be in
“excess” of jurisdiction which is as well fatal to the State’s/USA’s cause. Broom v.
Douglas, 75 Ala 268, 57 So 860 the same being jurisdictional facts FATAL to the
government’s cause (e.g. see In re FNB, 152 F 64).
A judgment rendered by a court without personal jurisdiction over the defendant is
void. It is a nullity. [A judgment shown to be void for lack of personal service on the
defendant is a nullity.] Sramek v. Sramek, 17 Kan. App. 2d 573, 576-77, 840 P.2d
553 (1992), rev. denied 252 Kan. 1093 (1993).
Challenging jurisdiction
1 / 5
“A court cannot confer jurisdiction where none existed and cannot make a
void proceeding valid. It is clear and well established law that a void order can
be challenged in any court” OLD WAYNE MUT. L. ASSOC. v. McDONOUGH, 204
U. S. 8, 27 S. Ct. 236 (1907).
“There is no discretion to ignore lack of jurisdiction.” Joyce v. U.S. 474 2D
215.
“Court must prove on the record, all jurisdiction facts related to the
jurisdiction asserted.” Latana v. Hopper, 102 F. 2d 188; Chicago v. New York 37
F Supp. 150
“The law provides that once State and Federal Jurisdiction has been
challenged, it must be proven.” Main v. Thiboutot, 100 S. Ct. 2502 (1980)
“Jurisdiction can be challenged at any time.” and “Jurisdiction, once
challenged, cannot be assumed and must be decided.” Basso v. Utah Power & Light
Co. 495 F 2d 906, 910.
“Defense of lack of jurisdiction over the subject matter may be raised at any time,
even on appeal.” Hill Top Developers v. Holiday Pines Service Corp. 478 So. 2d. 368
(Fla 2nd DCA 1985)
“Once challenged, jurisdiction cannot be assumed, it must be proved to exist.” Stuck
v. Medical Examiners 94 Ca 2d 751. 211 P2d 389.
“There is no discretion to ignore that lack of jurisdiction.” Joyce v. US, 474
F2d 215.
“The burden shifts to the court to prove jurisdiction.” Rosemond v. Lambert,
469 F2d 416.
Challenging jurisdiction
2 / 5
“A universal principle as old as the law is that a proceedings of a court without
jurisdiction are a nullity and its judgment therein without effect either on person or
property.” Norwood v. Renfield, 34 C 329; Ex parte Giambonini, 49 P. 732.
“Jurisdiction is fundamental and a judgment rendered by a court that does not have
jurisdiction to hear is void ab initio.” In Re Application of Wyatt, 300 P. 132; Re
Cavitt, 118 P2d 846.
“Thus, where a judicial tribunal has no jurisdiction of the subject matter
on which it assumes to act, its proceedings are absolutely void in the
fullest sense of the term.” Dillon v. Dillon, 187 P 27.
“A court has no jurisdiction to determine its own jurisdiction, for a basic
issue in any case before a tribunal is its power to act, and a court must have the
authority to decide that question in the first instance.” Rescue Army v. Municipal
Court of Los Angeles, 171 P2d 8; 331 US 549, 91 L. ed. 1666, 67 S.Ct. 1409.
“A departure by a court from those recognized and established requirements of law,
however close apparent adherence to mere form in method of procedure, which has
the effect of depriving one of a constitutional right, is an excess of jurisdiction.”
Wuest v. Wuest, 127 P2d 934, 937.
“Where a court failed to observe safeguards, it amounts to denial of due
process of law, court is deprived of juris.” Merritt v. Hunter, C.A. Kansas 170
F2d 739.
“the fact that the petitioner was released on a promise to appear before a
magistrate for an arraignment, that fact is circumstance to be considered in
determining whether in first instance there was a probable cause for the arrest.”
Monroe v.Papa, DC, Ill. 1963, 221 F Supp 685.
Challenging jurisdiction
3 / 5
Vehicle/Traffic
“An action by Department of Motor Vehicles, whether directly or through a court
sitting administratively as the hearing officer, must be clearly defined in the statute
before it has subject matter jurisdiction, without such jurisdiction of the licensee, all
acts of the agency, by its employees, agents, hearing officers, are null and void.”
Doolan v. Carr, 125 US 618; City v Pearson, 181 Cal. 640.
“Agency, or party sitting for the agency, (which would be the magistrate of a
municipal court) has no authority to enforce as to any licensee unless he is acting
for compensation. Such an act is highly penal in nature, and should not be
construed to include anything which is not embraced within its terms. (Where)
there is no charge within a complaint that the accused was employed for
compensation to do the act complained of, or that the act constituted part of a
contract.” Schomig v. Kaiser, 189 Cal 596.
“When acting to enforce a statute and its subsequent amendments to the present
date, the judge of the municipal court is acting as an administrative officer and not
in a judicial capacity; courts in administering or enforcing statutes do not act
judicially, but merely ministerially”. Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 583.
“A judge ceases to sit as a judicial officer because the governing principle of
administrative law provides that courts are prohibited from substituting their
evidence, testimony, record, arguments, and rationale for that of the agency.
Additionally, courts are prohibited from substituting their judgment for that of the
agency. Courts in administrative issues are prohibited from even listening to or
hearing arguments, presentation, or rational.” ASIS v. US, 568 F2d 284.
“Ministerial officers are incompetent to receive grants of judicial power
from the legislature, their acts in attempting to exercise such powers are
necessarily nullities.” Burns v. Sup., Ct., SF, 140 Cal. 1.
Challenging jurisdiction
4 / 5
The elementary doctrine that the constitutionality of a legislative act is open to
attack only by persons whose rights are affected thereby, applies to statute relating
to administrative agencies, the validity of which may not be called into question in
the absence of a showing of substantial harm, actual or impending, to a legally
protected interest directly resulting from the enforcement of the statute.” Board of
Trade v. Olson, 262 US 1; 29 ALR 2d 105.
Self study
Get know the word “jurisdict ion ”
Do a Google® search. You will find several more court cites you may choose to use.
Visit your local law library and discover the various resources available.
Obtain a copy of Black’s Law Dictionary, preferably any one from the First through
the Fifth Editions. The Sixth is not as complete, and [in this editor’s humble opinion] the
Seventh and Eight are just not worth your time or money. Example, look up the
term “United States” and notice that it is in the First through the Fifth Editions
and not in subsequent editions. It is an interesting study to see how a word, or
phrase, is defined in earlier versions versus later editions – and it is better to
know the earlier version. (The dumbing down of Americans is a national tragedy.)
Preview of coming attractions:
HAZEL-ATLAS GLASS CO. v. HARTFORD-EMPIRE CO., 322 U.S. 238 (1944)
Brought to you without prejudice for informational and educational purposes by,
http://www.freedom-school.com/
…click b y and learn some thing, indulge yourself in knowledge!
Challenging jurisdiction
5 / 5
Penny = you’re new here, aren’t you? And = very obviously a rank beginner in the nightmare of Court. all that verbiage rings so wonderful, until one gets into the pit with the racketeers. First and last what you need to know, is : they have the guns.
if you respond : please include the file numbers of cases in which you’ve actually challenged Jurisdiction. It would be helpful if you’d inform readers how many cows you’re milking, lately
It is indeed an excellent suggestion but federal courts routinely ignore or presume jurisdiction without requiring any evidence of it. This is particularly true in criminal cases where the defendant challenges federal geographical jurisdiction over his person and where the feds really want to lock the defendant up. Irwin Schiff, Eddy Kahn, Lindsey Springer and many others are doing long prison sentences after their jurisdictional challenges were ignored. Which is not to say that you shouldn’t challenge it, but that you shouldn’t be surprised when your challenge is buried in lies and bullshit.
Also, this collection of citations looks really shaky as far as the accuracy of the citation and the citation formats are concerned. For example, one of the first cases on the list, Hagans v. Lavine, is not 415 U.S. 533, it’s 415 U.S. 528. And in that case, the court found that it did indeed have jdx on a constitutional question. The allegation here that the case was “void” for lack of jdx is simply false.
US v Lopez, though not cited adequately at all, is probably 514 U.S. 549, which was the case where federal “gun free school zones” were struck down as beyond Congress’ authority. Considerations of jdx in that case were limited to the inclusion of “jurisdictional elements” in the language of a statute.
The quote attributed to Menlo v U.S. starting “Once jurisdiction is challenged…” does not appear in the case. (though there is a similar statement at pg. 1030.) I frequently see non-existent quotations from cases in patriot literature.
While I’m sure that the suggestion to establish jdx is a good one, I would never trust a list of cases cut and pasted from the internet. It looks like Penny’s came from here:
http://irwinschiff.homestead.com/jurisdictioncases.html
Ora, one of the three disgruntled employees did comment at length, on this blog’s Facebook page, as I noted in the post. I got rid of that, because it is full of what I consider to be libelous statements–to effect that Collette and Ron intentionally overworked and financially exploited their employees. That employee also placed the comments on the crowdfunding site, which prompted Collette and Ron to take down the crowdfunding campaign, rather than deal with the ongoing harassment of having the accusations re-posted. The other two employees filed suit against Claravale, contending that they hadn’t been paid overtime they were entitled to (even though they were salaried), among other charges. My understanding is that the suit was settled with Claravale paying a small amount, just to get out from under the huge lawyer fees associated with trying to defend one of these things. Also, I should have noted, that Claravale also faces two suits from raw milk drinkers who say they were sickened by campylobacter in the dairy’s milk; I presume those suits are seeking recovery of medical expenses.
Gee, Does that mean I can sue for more money because I worked as a CONTRACT RN for 8-9 yrs at various facilities? One facility in FL tried to have all the nurses on night shift also act as housekeepers, another wanted my to give chemo drugs (I have never been trained to give chemo), there are several times I missed lunch and potty breaks? Ha! Better have a strong bladder if you are a nurse. If it isn’t in my contract, I don’t do it. Contracts can easily be broken when one party does not up hold it.
Does that mean that all those “salaried” workers can sue? God knows they are abused….
I forget how long those “poor mistreated” employees stayed at the farm…if it was so bad, why didn’t they leave immediately? Are they “disgruntled” because the owners wanted things done their way and not the vision of the employees?
Sylvia, that was the old days, you moved on if the job didn’t work out the way you expected, or were told. Today? You sue. And as I said in my post, given the fact that employment regulators tend to be pro-employee, you have a decent chance of winning, or shaking down the employer to provide a settlement. The Obama administration has proposed changes to the salary/overtime laws to make it easier for salaried employees to qualify for overtime. My sense is that we are moving in the direction of Europe, where employers are very reluctant to take on new employees, because the laws and regulations associated with pay and with dismissing anyone are so onerous that you try to get by with temporary help or contract help, or by just keeping the company small.
Well, there are a lot of state and federal employees who are salaried. That’s a lot of over time to be paid. I cannot imagine subjecting myself to any type of abuse, especially for an extended amount of time. (Or any amount of time for that matter). I can see why states push to be right to work/fire state.
Oh yea, If it moves towards the European way, does that mean employees will get 30 days paid leave a year? I don’t know about now, but when we were there in the 80s, it was normal for establishments to shut down for a month while everyone took a vacation.
Claravale’s cows produce the most wonderful milk I’ve ever tasted, rich and creamy. Hope all goes well for them and their humans.
Thanks for posting this. Spencer is now in my neck of the woods!
If we are now in your neck of the woods, we would be happy to meet you, and although we will not share any more information about Ron and Collette’s farm further than what have already shared, we believe that you will find us honest–if maybe a bit jaded at this point.
David Gumpert and readers of this blog:
I will repost the comment my husband left on the David Gumpert facebook and Claravale’s GoFundMe campaign page, and give you the chance to read it and decide for yourselves. We get zero benefit from this–in fact it is incredibly stressful and sickening to even be involved in. As Spencer prefaced his comment on David Gumpert’s facebook post, we know that Collette calls David a friend, and at this point I hesitate to even try to explain our side of events, knowing it will likely be taken down as “libelous” regardless of the fact it is all true. We are not “building a case”, we are giving the other half of the story. Before I post the original comment, I would like to address something that Collette is quoted as saying:
“We have a very good crew here. Everyone likes their job and is well paid. That has always been the case.” The three disgruntled employees “had the opportunity to learn from the best in the industry (Ron) but unfortunately thought they knew better.”
Ron is absolutely not “the best in the industry”. He thinks he is, but there is a big difference between thinking something and it being true……(The concluding 400 words or so of this comment were edited out because of potentially libelous statements.)
Melissa Tregilgas
Melissa,
As noted within your comment, I edited out the concluding 400 or so words because I consider the material potentially libelous. It’s been a while since I have deleted blog comments because I judged them to be potentially libelous, but veterans of this blog know I have done it a number of times over the years, usually when they come up in connection with efforts to defame a particular farmer. Just so you understand, libel, also referred to as defamation, “is the communication of a false statement that harms the reputation of an individual person, business, product, group, government, religion, or nation as well as other various kinds of defamation that retaliate against groundless criticism,” according to Wikipedia.It is a legal term, and the author(s) of libelous comments can be sued by the targeted individual(s) or business for the damage caused by the defamation. So can the publishers of libelous statements. It isn’t easy to win a case involving libel in the U.S. (it’s much easier in the U.K., for example), but it can and does happen, especially if the target can substantiate that the accuser intended “malice.”
The comments I deleted accuse Collette Cassidy and Ron Garthwaite of serious criminal actions, including fraud, employee abuse, and various employment law transgressions. The fact that you say they are true (and thus non-libelous) doesn’t make them true, especially since the targets of your accusations say the statements are false.
You also say you will repost the comment here that your husband left on my blog’s Facebook page and on the Claravale crowdfunding site, but I’m afraid that isn’t going to happen (at least here). As I said in the post, those comments are full of similarly defamatory statements. And I deleted a third comment from you that, unfortunately, goes over the same ground yet again. I did approve a fourth statement, which is now on the comment page.
I try to avoid posting libelous comments not only because I don’t want to run the risk of being sued, but because I don’t care to be part of defamation campaigns, regardless of whether I agree or disagree with the targeted party.
You are welcome to post comments that avoid making criminal accusations against individuals. Thank you.
Myself and my husband fully understand the seriousness of the claims he (and I) are making, and would once again (since you edited out that part of my comment) like to point out that the proper way to face libel is by presenting the truth, not practicing censorship. Ron and Collette are adults, and if they want to present evidence or statements that refute what Spencer or I have written, they are fully capable of doing so–except that they cannot, because we are not lying.
Libel is, as you have made clear, by definition “the communication of a false statement…” and none of what Spencer or I posted is false. We do not wish to attack Ron and Collette, simply to clarify what was not true in their GoFundMe information as well as on their website updates about the Campylobacter outbreak. If that information seems damning, well, it is. No one is holding a gun to anyone’s head saying “believe it or else!”. Everyone is perfectly free to not believe us.
The information we shared is something that those who gave money to Ron and Collette have a right to know, and whether they believe it or not is up to them. Unfortunately I do not have time to find a way to share it again publicly, and will leave the matter with the satisfaction that they at least took down their fraudulent campaign. We are farmers, not lawyers, and not in the business of running smear campaigns.
Sincerely,
Melissa Tregilgas
I appreciate, Melissa, that you are certain of what is true and false in the Claravale situation. Unfortunately, it’s your absolute certainty that gets you into trouble. As one example, you say donors to the crowdfunding campaign “have a right to know” certain information, presumably that Claravale told you it settled with the two suing employees for a relatively small amount, and therefore doesn’t need anything close to the $600,000 fundraising goal. In your certainty, though, you fail to allow for the fact that the biggest threat in any suit is legal costs. This is often a much bigger risk than any judgment. Indeed, it typically costs much more to get a “not guilty” verdict than to do a settlement. I have no doubt Claravale spent tens of thousands of dollars defending itself against the employee suit, because that is what it costs anyone defending against such a suit. That is why it isn’t inaccurate to say America “has the best system of justice money can buy.”
The people who were suing Claravale were probably represented by a lawyer who worked on a contingency basis. He/she had determined that because such employment suits have a good chance of extracting a settlement, or winning, in the current pro-employee climate, that it was worth taking on. So, the employees could sue Claravale without any cost risk, and know that Claravale was drowning in legal costs. What a sweet deal….
I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just ascribe your misguided efforts to smear Claravale to naivete.
Ron and Collette told us that they settled out of court. And $9,000 is a relatively small amount compared to the 600k they were telling everyone. The very fact that they were advertising that they were being sued, when they had already settled the lawsuit out of court is pretty shady. But hey, I’ll take naivete. We were very naive to have ever trusted them.
Melissa >> Does your husband not have a mind of his own? Does your husband not have the ability to speak for himself? I don’t give much credence to words whispered by a man hiding behind his wife’s skirt as she trolls social media for soap boxes to preach from.
My husband spent today milking cows, bottling milk, building a portable chicken coop, feeding our sheep, and helped me feed and care for our children in his spare moments. He doesn’t have time for any of you. Sorry, I really shouldn’t either at this point.
It was once said, “The lady doth protest too much, methinks”. Melissa, your frequent and vehement attempts to convince others of Claravale Dairy’s alleged mistreatment of your husband and other employees has ironically helped to convince others that the opposite is true. As often is the case, social media “trolls” like yourself tend to be insincere and defensive. You are a lucky woman if all you have to do is focus on the care and feeding of your children. In my day, I had to do all the chores your husband does AND then some, WHILE single parenting a young family. The time and energy you are putting into your attempts to destroy Claravale Dairy’s reputation suggests you are engaging in obsessive histrionic rumination of events and, by your own admission, you need to focus more on the needs of your family. I believe your husband accepted a job with high expectations, became disappointed when reality fell short and is now attempting to force the situation in his favour. While he does the lion’s share of the work to support your family, you have become his public relations manager by using the keyboard to keep the rhetoric alive in social media. Move on Melissa and focus on your children. They need a mother more than a social media troll.
I am not taking sides in this issue because I know none of the folks involved. I also haven’t seen what’s been posted on fb because I do not belong to that trashy, gossipy site and never will. But in my opinion it would be useful to hear from both sides. Here at David’s blog I’ve seen nothing from any of the others who say they have complaints against Claravale – but then I detest scrolling through the comments to see if there are any new ones, and I may have missed seeing anything like that in the past 4-5 days. That would be a useful thing for others to know so that a more balanced opinion could be formed. But calling people trolls is really not helpful – nor accurate, since they DO have a part in the continuing saga. (You need to look up the meaning of what an online troll actually is, Kat). How come no one else besides Melissa is speaking out? Makes me a little suspicious of the whole lot of them.
I’m not interested in hearing the petty parts of the story, just the meat and potatoes of what happened with each employee and why they feel they were wronged – and why some agreement couldn’t have been reached between the parties simply by talking things out. I don’t like to think of farmers & ranchers, much less veterinarians, as the type who would knowingly take advantage of their workers, mostly because I come from a ranching background and know how hard it can be to find and keep good help when you need it. But I’m afraid our jumbled up, mostly *naive in this type of situation* (read: farming) judicial system cannot help but fall short of actually helping anyone.
D, it would be nice to have an accurate assessment of the Claraval situation. Right now, “the petty parts” that you refer to amount to a he-said-she-said situation, and much from both sides consists of libelous accusations about the other’s motivations. The only way I can think of to obtain that more accurate assessment would be for a journalist to interview the parties, and outside observers, and then try to piece together as objective an account as possible. That would take a huge amount of time and energy, and assumes all the various parties would speak for attribution…and even then, it might not be possible to gain an accurate picture.
Maybe with your journalistic connections, David, you could contact Nick Gillespie (I think he’s at Reason.com now) about doing just such an interview with ALL of the involved parties. He’s very good at that sort of thing and is, I think, used to working on a speedy basis.
It’s ok if she wants to call me a troll and say mean things to me–I shouldn’t have bothered replying to her in the first place.
No one else is speaking out because virtually no one knows what goes on at Claravale day to day besides the workers, and they are mostly (when we left, all) Mexicans. We are friends with one former milker and his wife who left before we did (they were/are smarter by far) but I’m absolutely not going to drag them into this.
Because Mr. Gumpert is afraid of being part of a libel suit with Claravale, he wont post anything I say specific about Claravale. But my email is melissa.tregilgas@gmail.com and I will email the things I have posted on here if anyone desires to read them. It might help to have an outside opinion actually.
“Ron is absolutely not “the best in the industry”. He thinks he is, but there is a big difference between thinking something and it being true…”
Since it is his farm, does it really matter if he thinks he is the best or not? It is his farm, why would someone think they can change things ( I am assuming, by your statement, that you et al, feel things should change). Mark McAfee thinks his is the best too, as does the cafos. I suppose to be successful, it helps to think you are the best. If he doesn’t feel his farm is broken, why fix it? Rather presumptuous to think other should change because it isn’t what you think is the best.
If Mr. Gumpert had allowed the rest of that statement to be posted, instead of censoring it, you would know why Ron’s overarching belief in his own infallibility is not only silly but dangerous. Anything I could say to defend myself Gumpert wont allow you to read here. Which makes me look like a schmuck. But I know eventually the truth will come out. In the meantime God help the poor bastards still working there.
My son Aaron said a very profound thing to a visitor some time ago. He was sharing all of the apparent elements of our RAWMI OPDC RAMP plan when the visitor said…”….why do you share all of your trade secrets with competition or outsiders ? He then shared….” Because our RAMP plan is not the secret to our great numbers and success. Anyone can write a RAMP plan….but it takes a motivated, well treated, well managed team to execute a RAMP with consistency. Our secret sauce is our team and execution…”
As far as litigation and claims of jurisdiction ….ask the sovereign citizen James Stewart about claims of jurisdiction…ask him how it goes when you challenge or ignore Alphabet Soup Agencies that have unlimited budgets…plenty of guns….plenty of snaky lawyers. Ask him how it turns out when you make big claims even if they appear to be true.
One of the greatest lessons of my life: courts are a waste of life’s limited resources, the greatest of which is time. I would rather settle with certainty than file suit with promise. The rare exception is suing with other people’s money. Join the FTCLDF. It is the greatest litigation insurance policy available at any price.
Another great lesson….stay far away from the police….95% are great human beings….but you not tell which are the 5% and that is a very very dangerous gamble.
indulge me … again … while I fold-in one of my favourite lines re Court battles : “I used to be disgusted, now I just try to be amused” Elvis Costello
in the last round in B.C., where Michael Schmidt and I were on trial for contempt of Court, as the ‘directing mind’ of OUR COWS cowshare, Schmidt’s lawyer proved that since, the federal govt. agency = Health Canada = had officially pronounced the raw milk flowing from our herd, to fall properly in the category of a cosmetic, the province had no jurisdiction. Thus, taking oversight of such product away from British Columbia. Prosecutrixie Susan Beach ignored that avenue of defence because ‘the fix was in’. Mister Justice Wong just skated on past that particular avenue of defence and found us guilty.
…. as well as giving us 90 days in gaol, he awarded ‘costs’ to the Fraser Health Authority’ ~ jointly and severally. He did have mercy on us, though, suspending the gaol time conditional upon us being good for a year = which we most certainly did
…..although Fraser Health hasn’t come after us for “costs”, I expect they’re at least $105,000. At this point in time, that “dry judgement” is against Michael Schmidt who has no assets, and me, who got status as an indigent for the sake of that matter. “Who goeth to war without counting the cost?”
…. during the 7 years or so I was involved in the DeTax thing, I encountered reams of verbiage such as Penny presents. Nearly all of which is utter claptrap, and worse = studied DIS-information = trafficked by those who’ve never so much as been in a courthouse, let alone “crossed the Bar”. ”
…. “Jurisdiction” you say ? go read what happened to Jesus Christ ; figure out what he meant when he said “My kingdom is not of this world”
like a pestiferous noisy blow-fly, who rattles back to destroy the peace & quiet, that perennial pest of the Campaign for REAL MILK is back ….. buzzin’ ’round the manure pile of propaganda put out by the health officials in Tennessee. Seems someone got ill there and raw milk is “associated” … not even “linked” as per the usual slanderous media release. Nevertheless, M Mc M gets her own cameo at …
http://www.clarksvilleonline.com/2015/07/23/tennessee-department-of-health-says-disease-investigations-linked-to-increased-raw-milk-consumption/
put the email icon for = “warning = gag reflex ahead” = here
Please . . . stop giving her press.
Gordon,
Do you have doubts as to whether Julie Riggs’ daughter and husband or Kaylee Prue, also featured in video on the site you linked to, got sick from raw milk?
From a raw milk drinker’s perspective, I always wonder what they’re not telling us, what information is being left out that would cast doubt on the attribution to raw milk as the source of illness.
so far I’ve only watched the clip of Julie Riggs. It’s a wonderful example of how powerful television is, for manipulatiing the human emotions. That video has absolutely NO nexus to any evidence that the raw milk which was consumed by the little girl, was what made her ill.
…. I underscore that I always tell people, “yes, people do get sick from drinking raw milk, but it’s rare”. I’m far-removed from that situation, but I bet that if a genuinely-objective investigator were allowed to get at the facts, the raw milk factor would recede into insignificance, compared to what else was going on. Meaning : yes, it is likely that little girl was made ill from raw milk. But how she was mis-treated afterwards, had more to do with compounding the ordeal than the original cause.
…. Who am I to second-guess “the professionals” ? Well, how do those very same “professionals” do, statistically, with the methods employed on that particular patient? For instance : If there’s one single thing you do NOT want to do in a hospital, it’s – receive someone else’s blood.
… back to square One ; what real scientific analysis was done on that cluster of people who are ASSUMED to have been made ill by raw milk? the best the fear-mongers could do, was “associated with” … so what?!
…. No ; until there’s a serious follow-up, I refuse to accept that they were all made ill by raw milk. Too many times this very same urban fable is trotted-out = literally word for word from the script = for no good reason but to scare people away from REAL MILK. The cameo of the fear-mongers’ poster-girl, resident troll and trouble-maker on this forum, doing her star-turn, cinches it for me. We have to ask again = “how much are they paying her?”
… Skepticism is an essential discipline for practicing science. The milk itself was not the cause of the illness ’til proven rigorously, that it was.
Gordon, don’t you find it unusual that they can always find the very few that have bad experiences to relate and promote, but can’t find any of the literally many thousands if not hundreds of thousands that drink raw milk everyday to give their testimonials?
Also, the statistics they propose:
“Raw milk is 150 times more likely to cause a foodborne illness than pasteurized milk and can be life-threatening to some, particularly to children. Those who consume raw milk should be aware of the serious health risks involved,” said TDH Deputy State Epidemiologist John Dunn, DVM, PhD.
Have been debunked by David and Mark many times but the general public is just not aware of it so they buy into this bull because it comes from supposedly credible agency employees who are on a mission and agenda.
When I saw that article several days ago, I just assumed it was a reprint of a news release from the Tennessee Dept of Health. Those interviews are from the CDC raw milk site, and are several years old, and have absolutely nothing to do with the “news” being reported, so I assume the TN Dept of Health just stuck them in there to make nice with the CDC. It’s pathetic that such material is published in a newspaper, as if it is a news article, because obviously no one at the newspaper did anything beyond copy and paste. The “news” about illnesses is so vague that it’s impossible to know what happened. Its only value is to show the mindset of the public health people there.
Anyone who’s read my comments and links in this blog knows it’s standard operating procedure for the secret government to infiltrate, slander, and sabotage organizations and movements that threaten the big money gangster network that controls the government behind the scenes.
It appears David’s search feature for this blog is disabled: if I type “tommculhane” into the box, I get “Sorry, but you are looking for something that isn’t here.”
I was trying to find my post where I quoted that animal rights activist who talks about how grassroots movements can learn from the mistakes others have made. She said, quoting from memory, “We have never feared the government would return to using the COINTELPRO type tactics they used to sabotage movements in the 60s and 70s, because we know they have never stopped.”
Indeed, the secret government is bigger and more out of control than ever. Many have posted here how raw milk and small farming in general threaten the big money corporate food monopoly interests. That’s certainly true, but I have repeatedly pointed out how these monopolies interconnect, and particularly, how corporate slop food feeds the biggest business today, the Sickness Industry.
The government’s fascination with raw milk while turning a blind eye to the true threats to our health, such as artery hardening hydrogenated oils, mineral stripping refined sugars, pesticide laden fruits and vegetables, doped animals, gmos, and the incredible hazards of pharmaceutical drugs and vaccines, … is no mystery here. Raw milk is such a heath-giving food, and thus it is demonized. There’s no money to be made in good health.
I was talking last week with my friend who manages a health food store, about how raw dairy and other good food can heal teeth, and he told me about a guy that worked for him for over a year, who had had severe rotting of his teeth, and found Weston Price’s documentation of the superb health of peoples around the world who ate real food, and so this guy switched to using raw milk and eating liver and other good foods, and his teeth healed with no drilling. He went back to the dentist and xrays confirmed his teeth were healed.
But the typical establishment trained dentist today is as clueless about this all as the typical doctor is clueless about the real cause and cures for disease. Again, there’s no money in good health.
I hope Claravale decides to do a real investigation into this unfortunate cluster of “coincidences” affecting their dairy.
tommculhane,
If you want to find your comments on this blog, do a site search. site:thecompletepatient.com tommculhane. You may need to do site:davidgumpert.com tommculhane to find your recent posts.
The site search works great for finding comments on a blog.
That worked great, Lynn, thank you! I also did “site:thecompletepatient.com cointelpro” and that brought up six posts, hopefully with Tomm’s comment that he’s looking for. I will look into the search feature and see what’s up. The standard WP search usually works perfectly, but, if it’s failing, there is likely a plugin 🙂
Sally, I couldn’t get that search thinguie to work because I was plugging the info site:davidgumpert.com into the search box at the top right of this blog with a magnifying glass next to it.
Turns out you have to copy/paste or type the search criteria in your browser url box, hit enter and then it works fine.
Also, the statistics they propose:
“Raw milk is 150 times more likely to cause a foodborne illness than pasteurized milk”
David or Mark, can you please repost the actual statistic ratios of illnesses and deaths from raw vs pasteurized that you wrote about before? I can’t find them.
Another misleading lie that they will not admit to: “Pasteurization kills harmful bacteria by simply heating milk for a specific amount of time.”
This is know as a “partial truth method of stating lies.” It should read Pasteurization kills all harmful and beneficial bacteria by simply heating milk for a specific amount of time.
Why don’t they outlaw all probiotics and any other foods that actually promote bacteria growth? Oh wait they’re trying to do that too.
As I’ve pointed out any number of times, that “150 times more likely….” “data” is based on outbreaks, not illnesses. Pasteurized milk causes many illnesses with very few outbreaks, while raw milk causes many fewer illnesses with more outbreaks. CDC obviously doesn’t want to compare illness numbers because the data wouldn’t be so favorable to their propaganda line that raw milk should never be consumed by anyone anywhere.
As I say, I hope Claravale decides to do a real investigation. People in favor of the right to eat real food need to learn from activists in other areas. Not far from Claravale dairy, a tiny group of activists have tried for years to save the last of California’s ancient redwood trees from liquidation by corporate logging. If the media cartel reported what’s really been happening, most Americans would be outraged. But it’s all suppressed. There is big money in raping the earth. I’ve heard one ancient redwood brings in 300 thousand dollars. They are all but gone now. But sometimes people fighting back have won victories in court:
“On June 11, 2002, a federal jury returned a stunning verdict in favor of Judi Bari and Darryl Cherney in their landmark civil rights lawsuit against four FBI agents and three Oakland Police officers.
The jury unanimously found that six of the seven FBI and OPD defendants tried to frame Judi and Darryl in an effort to crush Earth First! and chill participation in Redwood Summer. That was evident in the fact that 80% of the $4.4 million total damage award was for violation of their First Amendment rights to speak out and organize politically in defense of the forests.
“The jury exonerated us,” said Darryl Cherney. “They found the FBI to be the ones in violation of the law. The American public needs to understand that the FBI can’t be trusted. Ten jurors got a good, hard look at the FBI and they didn’t like what they saw.” “
One of the jurors (Nunn) spoke afterward to The Moniter. Here are excerpts:
“Nunn: When I started that trial I didn’t know anything about environmentalists or that movement. I didn’t know anything about this group. And I was kind of like, well, maybe they acted up a bit; maybe the police were worthy. I went in there with that attitude. But when I sat and listened to the evidence, and I saw all that had happened, I did a 180-degree turn in that courtroom. And then my heart just poured out to them. I couldn’t believe what they had been through.
MONITOR: Did you think the police and FBI witnesses were lying in court?
Nunn: They absolutely were lying. I didn’t just think that they were lying. The search warrant showed that they were lying. Their inconsistency showed that they were lying. Their stories didn’t jibe, not one together. Each one was evading the question or saying they didn’t remember. These people are notorious for note keeping. They’re notorious for their files. So all of a sudden they don’t recall anything?
…You had two different types of people in the courtroom. You had the people of Earth First! that were very subtle, very demure, very mellow. And then you had the FBI agents. Doyle actually acted like a goof. He kind of laughed things off and played them down as if we would relate. I was taking it all very seriously, more like “how dare you?” We all knew they (Judi and Darryl) were innocent.
MONITOR: How about the sheriff-elect of Humboldt County who testified that there has never been a tree-spiking or sabotage incident in the past 20 years in Humboldt or Mendocino Counties?
Nunn: Right. Darryl and Judi didn’t even have a criminal history. … They just don’t strike me as people who would do those kinds of things. They’re both educated, and they’re passionate. How do you go from loving something like a tree to wanting to go hurt people with a bomb that have blood flowing through them. If you’re going to love a tree, you’re going to love a person more so. It didn’t fit their character. It didn’t fit any of those people’s character in that room (the Earth First! supporters). Those people had an essence of light about them. You could feel their whole essence across the room, all of them. They were a beautiful group of people. I don’t even know them, but that was what their presence showed. They were so mellow and laid back and earthy and kind. Come on! They didn’t fit the description of people who would try to hurt people. When they took the stand their personality was very demure and mellow. The judge would say, “You need to answer that,” and they’d say, “okay.” You know they didn’t get excited. They were just a different breed. They’re not into things like bombing. Sometimes you just know. They really touched me and I was really moved by them. At one point I wanted to run away and become one of them. They have such an ease about them. They seem to not have a lot of stress going on, you know?
MONITOR: What do you hope the public will learn from this case?
Nunn: …when they see things like this happening, don’t just take it for the truth what the cops and the media are telling you. You need to really take a look at it, and investigate it. Take a stance and protect people and speak out. Because if you don’t it’s going to be covered up and no one’s going to pay attention, and no one will ever be held accountable. People might say it’s just one incident, but one incident turns into multiple, and pretty soon it’s you.”
That info can be found at this website: http://www.judibari.org/
It looks like lawyers from Judi Bari’s legal team published an account of the trial in the legal journal of the National Lawyers Guild. Some might find it of interest. I think it’s highly relevant to the raw milk scene. Their conclusion ends with:
“When COINTELPRO was exposed, they took it off the books but continued to practice it. Now, they can be expected to write down even less, keep fewer records which might become evidence in court and generally put the “secret” back in secret police. In this struggle, our best assets are each other, as eleven years of unflagging and clamorous support by a wide community of talented supporters demonstrated. The People kept this case alive and brought it to trial, and proved that we can win. Long live freedom. Viva Judi Bari!”
here’s the link: http://www.judibari.org/nlg_practitioner_fall_2002.html
Raw milk is the cause of about 35 to 40 illnesses per year in the USA. Pasteurized dairy products have made 400,000 people sick since 1972 and killed at least 88. Raw milk has yet to kill anyone since 1972
Shhhh Mark, the truth scares people.
Mark,
What are these statistics really telling us? Are they indeed representative of food born illnesses or are they more a reflection of medical interference and complication prior to and/or following such illnesses?
It’s really a joke to worry about the occasional so-called food born illness when we have tens of thousands of people who are maimed and killed by medical intervention, every year.
A 2000 presidential report described Iatrogenic illness as, “a national problem of epidemic proportions,” causing tens of thousands of deaths annually. And this is the system we put our faith in and rely on for our overall good health or that makes the ludicrous claim that raw milk is dangerous? Why is the medical profession so intent on ramming or mandating their dangerous protocols down our throats, or via enforced injection???
Here is a novel idea, “Iatrogenic Illness Awareness Month”. http://www.madinamerica.com/2014/10/coming-iatrogenic-illness-awareness-month/
http://www.powertalk967.com/media/podcast-ag-life-weekend-with-rich-AgLifeWeekend/mark-mcafee-26224778/
The pod cast linked above is a powerful story of two dairies just five miles apart. OPDC and its neighbor Sweet Haven Dairy. Donny Rollins is interviewed by Rich Ridriguez and tells his story of how his family emigrated from Switzerland in the 1920s to build a dairy life….now the dairy is suffering the highs and lows of CAFO pricing. You can find the link next to my interview.
Our pod cast tells a different story and a new chapter. OPDC ( sons and me ) have responded to a critical demand for water….for years we have provided great food for people…but now an even more critical human need has emerged. The need for water. It is not possible to make food grow with out water. Water is the number one human need…then comes food and shelter.if you have ever watched the series ” naked and afraid”. After the first five minutes of being embarrassed because of being naked in front of a stranger…the next search is for water and then it is all about food and shelter. In CA the need for water trumps all other needs, we founded All Pro Drilling to address this critical need. On top of building a new dairy and making huge improvements to our creamery, All Pro has been a real blessing. We are redoing all of our wells. They were dug back in the 1960s or earlier and they are rusty old and needing replacement. Instead of waiting two years and overpaying some other driller we are doing it ourselves!! I am so proud of my son and son in law. This is their project. The team they have assembled includes a qualified lead driller, welders and other operators. Listen to the pod cast to learn more. See http://www.allprodrilling.com for a look at all sorts of drilling activities. There is so much joy when we bring water to people. The aquafer in central CA is huge and in these times,…access to this water bank is critical.
” …experts warn that the new rush for water is unsustainable and that it carries serious consequences for the environment and the future.”
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/08/140815-central-valley-california-drilling-boom-groundwater-drought-wells/
http://www.npr.org/2014/06/30/325494399/drought-has-drillers-running-after-shrinking-california-water-supply
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/09/140917-california-groundwater-law-drought-central-valley-environment-science/
OK … so, California has reached the limit of its capacity as supplier of a major part of the food for the rest of Ham-merica. So what? There’s plenty of water for those who live there. Left alone from communist interference, the genuinely free market will re-allocate resources properly.
…. Meaning : in all the places which now live on what comes out of Cal., white people will actually have to get down and do the stoop labor which has been out-sourced. Imagine people in the northern states / Canada, getting out and gathering a year’s food … sweating to cultivate plots which were pioneered a century ago, but have gone fallow as we borrowed our way to obscene national and personal bankruptcy. Those IOUs denominated in Federal Reserve Notes, are now overdue. You can be sure there are more than a few Greek people who are asking their elders how they produced the necessities of life, in the backyard and on ancestral commons
…. last week I was talking to the people at FodderWorks who build grow-chambers for sprouting barleygrass, as fodder for dairy cattle, among other livestock. Their grow-op box uses about 1/7 th the amount of water it takes to produce the equivalent food value as hay. An idea whose time has come. For the do-it-yrselfers in this forum ; see the blog at http://www.pacapride.com for some inspiring pics and complete instructions
By posting stuff from Nat Geog and NPR, you show your ignorance. You buy into all the junk they say, huh? They are paid, by our very own gubmint, to lie to you and the rest of america. Mark is correct, america is drowning in water. Oil too, for that matter. There is a lot of material out there on these issues, but you can’t go to a gov sponsored site, et al, for that information.
America is drowning in water…..this is an issue of political will to move water arround. We have a food security issue in America because we do not manage our water. Loves are lost every day from flooding in the Midwest. Why doesn’t America start a water project that utilizes its resources.
Until those answers can be found….we will go to the water bank which is practically untapped. Experts say that only 5% of our accessible aquifers have been utilized. In the last 75 years our water levels have risen and fallen many times. Sometimes we must turn on the pumps in order to stay dry. If not….lakes form and flood us out, in times of less water the water bank is our resource.
Those that speak negatively about well drilling for water….turn on their water spigots, take showers, flush toilets and eat food with out the consciousness to understand that water does not come from a hose,….and food does not come from a store.
In this world there are those that bring water and bring food and and those that drink water and eat food. Enough said…
The U.S. seems to have developed a phobia about infrastructure. There was a time when we built amazing transit systems, dams, highways. No longer. Now, politicians seem to try to out-do each other as to who is more against new transit system or upgrading our pathetic passenger rail system. Last week, NY/NJ commuter rail lines came to a standstill for several days because of ancient tunnels coming apart. I’m not sure if it’s a result of the oligarchs trying to avoid new taxes, or just part of the endless blame game that has developed. Who can the pols leave holding the bag as to who was responsible for us running out of water?
@ Mark: You might find this interesting reading: http://www.propublica.org/article/amid-drought-california-experiments-with-leasing-water-rights