Corporate hog producers and state agriculture regulators around the country are understood to be watching closely the legal case of Michigan hog farmer Mark Baker.
What they are seeing is a highly tentative Michigan Department of Natural Resources, seemingly incapable of explaining what is wrong with the pigs Baker is raising, and was selling to high-end restaurants as recently as two years ago. That was before the DNR wrecked his business, along with that of many other farmers, with its Invasive Species Order, essentially banning wild, or feral, pigs, whether running wild or domesticated by farmers like Baker. The genetic traits listed by the order seemed to ban all pigs . except the very few raised by corporate producers.
Baker filed suit against the state, seeking clarification of the states order, and a judge rejected a state effort to dismiss the suit. He has also put on hold the DNRs $700,000 fine of Baker for allegedly violating the ISO.
At a hearing last week, an unusual scenario unfolded, in which the state appeared to want to let Baker off the hook, and Baker refused the vague initiative. In a video, Baker reported, They say I have come into compliance. I have not done anything .When you hear that I have complied, I dont want you to think I have broken under the pressure. I havent.
The state was seeking, once again last week, to have the case dismissed, but the state judge refused. The judge also refused a request from Baker for a jury trial when the case goes to trial March 11.
According to Baker, a state prosecutor said the DNR determined from an earlier video, showing Baker holding a baby pig, that the pig was in compliance. I dont think they were wearing their bifocals. The pig I was holding up was a Mangelitsa, which is one of the banned species.
The state may have been confused as well by the fact that Baker reduced his pig herd a couple months ago to reduce his farm’s expenses. “We did, in fact, cull our Russian/Eurasian Boar looking sow and her daughters last December. However, we maintain our suit because the DNR has continued to deny us due process by refusing to define terms such as ‘hybrid,’ ‘domestic hog production,’ and ‘feral’ so that we can determine if our remaining pigs are legal or not. They continue to insist that how a pig looks determines its living arrangement.”
We wont drop our lawsuit. We have not complied.
On his web site, Baker made reference to the inconsistencies related to genetics: They have never looked at our herd and have no real knowledge of their lineage. In all its vagaries, we are still unclear whether or not we are in compliance with the law. This is the question we had when this started and we continue to have.
It seems reminiscent of the statement from U.S. Supreme Court justice Potter Stewart in a 1964 obscenity case, in which he stated that “hard-core pornography” was hard to define, but that I know it when I see it.
A trial pitting Mark Baker vs. the Michigan DNR is set to go forward beginning Tuesday March 11, at the Missaukee County Courthouse, 111 Canal St, Lake City, MI. Its scheduled to last four days. Everyone is invited to attend and show support for Mark Baker, and opposition to genetic purity laws for pigs that state regulators seem unable or unwilling to explain, except to say that they decide, on behalf of corporate producers, what is pure and what isnt.
Do not let go, you called their bluff and now they have much to answer for and too!!
When the comments on a particular thread, such as THE NEGOTIATING ON RAW MILK STANDARDS HAS BEGUN, are so voluminous as to require a second page, your website does not allow quick access to that second page of comments. If I see a comment in the Recent Comments section and click on it, it takes me to the top of the first page and stops there. It took me a while to figure out that I need to scroll down to the bottom of the first page, click on the second square, then scroll down the second page of comments until I found the one I was looking for. And the recent comment may not simply be at the bottom of that page, but might be embedded anywhere on that page.
I think maybe I’m not the only person that was slow to catch on to how to find those second page comments. Is it possible for your tech people to make it easier to get to them? Even having some way to choose page 1 or page 2 at the top of the comments would be helpful, but it would be really nice to click on the comment in the Recent Comments section and get taken directly to any comments on page 2.
Lynn
… Also ; when a post starts with a URL link as the very first line, the reader cannot get in to that message because clicking on the URL takes you to it, right away, thus leaving the Complete Patient website
If I may add some thoughts:
1. give each comment a permanent, unique number, in numerical order (for that TCP Post) and display that permanent, unique number in the TCP comment attribution line. (see below for an example)
2.
3.
4.
viz:
who:Lynn_M | #3 | when: Thu, 02/13/2014 – 10:16 | reply
instead of the present:
who: Lynn_M | when: Thu, 02/13/2014 – 10:16 | reply
I’m sure there are others here at TCP with more clever and useful ideas.
I would think this through carefully, collecting ideas, ranking those ideas, & only then implement them.
I myself do not have the time to hunt down the 2nd page comments when there are many of them, as at present.
I read the right column snippet but must let it go at that.
I know it takes effort to even comment. I am encouraged most by the comments that display clarity of purpose, thought, and composition, and hate the thought of having to skip reading full comments due to my own time constraints. Repetition in and of itself is not offputting to me.
Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard
Lynn, very good point. I’ve had the same problem myself. I’m going to inquire with our web master, and see what might be done to ease access to the comments on a second page, and make them more orderly. I’ll let everyone know what I find out.
… Remember, folks, if you need a licence to do something, that’s proof what you’re doing, is categorically illegal. Versus our watchword in ~ 1969 : “just do it”
http://www.wvgazette.com/News/201402120130
Okay, it seems that we have a fix for the main comments problem. The comments will now all show up on a single page, eliminating the need to click to a second comments page. Moreover, when you click on a comment on the home page, you should be taken directly to that comment….except if you have Safari as your browser. The web master is exploring a fix to the Safari issue, and I’ll update that.
http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2014/02/raw_milk_dairy_farmer_in_orego.html
… “Anderson, who tests her cow’s milk monthly for harmful bacteria, acknowledges that raw milk can make people sick.”
…my guess is : actually doing the chores and delivering the good stuff = she knows more about the issue than a certain commentator on this forum, who’s in denial.
… seemingly tiny, it’s a major victory for the Campaign for REAL MILK. “A spark can set on fire a whole forest” Good on you, Christine Anderson!
http://rawmilkinstitute.net/listed-farmers/listed-farmer-cast-iron-farm/
Her facilities are spotless and her RAMP plan is awesome. I have the pleasure of seeing her monthly bacteria counts and she is an outstanding producer of raw milk. NOW SHE CAN ADVERTISE like the rest of the civilized world that lives in our society!@!!!!!!!!
I am so proud of her. What a great example of being an American and engaging the system. She did not complain about the ban on raw milk advertizement…she just reached out and changed the rediculous law. They settled the issue before the case went to court!!! She did this while being pregnant with her gorgeous daughter Florence that is now just a baby. This was a win for RAWMI and a huge win for all of the raw milk in Oregon and one more little chip away at the big wall erected to keep consumers away from their farmers.
I can not express how proud I am of one of our own!! Christine….you are an example for all of us. Her mentor was Charlotte Smith. Now Christine mentors others producers as well. Truly awesome!
Go Oregon…Go Christine!!!
With the help of Charlotte Smith and Christine, the safety expectations for raw milk in Oregon are now very high. Incidents like Foundation Farms should be a thing of the past. This is the vision and our collective goal.
Posting our practices in detail is one of the best things we can do to encourage positive dialogue among raw milk consumers, producers, and food safety regulators. Consumers can compare one farms practices to another and make better choices. Farmers can learn from mentors.
And yes Gordon, producing raw milk daily, while a joy and a privilege, also comes with the sobering realization that we need to be wise with our practices. As you obviously well know. It’s one thing to rant on a blog about pathogens being benign. It’s another to provide raw milk to your friends knowing that they intend to feed it to their children.
Thank you for saying that about raw milk.
Much has been said about the innate safety of raw milk…the ability for raw milk to control growth of pathogens and even kill off some of them. Under certain conditions perhaps some of this is true….but these are conditional statements.
But…until the producers of raw milk take the safety of their raw milk extremely seriously, I mean RAMP plan…I am saying passionately seriously, there will be problems and room for error. When we screw up, we offer those that do not like raw milk very much a real opportunity to use raw milk as a great example of an unsafe food. I REFUSE TO ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN. All of the LISTED dairymen have done a superb job of creating a brilliant new track record that is backed up by hard data. Data that is unrefutable and undeniable. Raw milk has a ghost to bury. We must operate at a level that is beyond reproach and create a new expectation of excellence. Our consumers expect and deserve nothing less. Our sleep patterns and stress levels need and deserve it just as much.
The sooner we can face the fact that raw milk can be a “range of things from dangerous to extremely safe” depending on management and based on the conditions we provide for the cows ( RAMP )…the faster we can all produce the safetest food on earth. Literally from “Foundation farms…to RAWMI LISTED” raw milk is highly varible and it all has to do with the human management side of things!!
Good point about posting some text here before the actual link Gordon, I had pointed that out before, I forget when probably in the Ice Ages before the OldLympics started. BTW who is the person in denial? Can’t be me, I know you can get sick from just about anything even just thinking about it.
The term raw milk kills pathogens is an expression used by those who advocate both extremes of the raw milk debate. In other words, by those who promote it and also by those who are incredulous to such a notion?
This whole idea of killing perceived harmful microbes stems from a deep-rooted fear and resultant narrow, antagonistic attitude that such a scenario is indeed possible and necessary in order to avoid illness.
As to who first used the term raw milk kills pathogens is beyond me. You and Mary were the latest to use the term last month in expressing your incredulity to such a notion.
If you recall Mary stated that, raw milk had the capacity to kill pathogens, in order to express her disapproval of Sally Fallon and the WAPFs use of the term. You ramped it up a notch however in your reply to her by emphasizing, on contact, when you stated, As for raw milk killing pathogens on contact.
You may recall that I was somewhat taken aback by your statement. I stated, Thats a new one!? I recall on numerous occasions having discussions on this blog with respect to a known and valid process that occurs in the world of microbes and raw milk known as competitive exclusion.
I may be perceived as splitting hairs here, however it is these types of exaggerations that undermine the credibility of both sides of the debate.
Ken
…But I’ve got big shoulders. In my appeal, I’m dealing with another judge who used comments I’d posted on my raw milk website – but which were NOT specified in the Bill of Particulars of the charge I faced – as part of his Reasons for giving me 3 months in gaol. Of course that’s nuts, but that’s what Censor-ship looks like, Writ Large. Which is why my friend Doug Christie used to say “Freedom of Expression IS the issue”.
… As long as the Campaign for REAL MILK, can find a way to tell the Truth, we will prevail.
The word pathogen is not an incorrect analogy; unfortunately it has become a stigmatizing catch all term used in this extravagant, narrow-minded all-encompassing war against microbes.
By preceding the word pathogen with so-called I am not suggesting that certain microbes are harmless. I use the prefix because I believe that any harmful effect, when exhibited is not exclusive to a specific microbe but rather to its toxic environment. Hence its toxic environment is primarily at fault. Consider this scenario with the cow in this case representing a microbe, if a bee stings a cow, who then kicks over the bucket of milk, who or what is responsible?
Ken
So e.coli o157:H7 makes an enzyme that can begin the process of taking apart a cell that is damaged or weak. This is exactly what “beneficial” microbes do. E coli o157:H7 can tolerate more acid conditions than many bacteria so it takes over the job under acid conditions. And the acid conditions may be the cause of the damaged cell’s inability to defend itself.Calling e coli o157:H7 a pathogen and calling the enzyme a toxin feed the wrong headed theory that some microbes are trying to kill us when in reality the are simply helping to keep our bodies clean and functioning at the best possible level.
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/proteintoxins.html
Shiga toxin
Shigella dysenteriae
E. coli O157:H7
Enzymatically cleaves eucaryotic 28S rRNA resulting in inhibition of protein synthesis in susceptible cells. Results in diarrhea, hemorrhagic colitis (HC) and hemolytic uremic syndrome (HUS)
And I don’t need to look at a bunch of studies to tell me whether or not competive exclusion is effective in preventing raw-milk related illness when we have the very unfortunate case study of Foundation Farm, among others. Competitive exclusion was not effective there.
A solid plan for producing low-risk milk includes a multiple hurdle approach. From husbandry practices that do no encourge pathogenic proliferation in the first place, to excellent sanitation, and competive exclusion is not a hurdle that I rely on.
John
I want follow up on a comment you made some days ago regarding Extension. I think your comment is correct:
Shawna, the kind of public-supported training you are talking about is Agriculture Extension–courses in the basics of farming on a local or state-wide basis. As far as I know, there haven’t been extension courses in any state covering the production of safe raw milk in decades, perhaps 100 years. That would complement what RAWMI is trying to do, be probably more basic, but it could reach more farmers more quickly than RAWMI is currently able to do.
The other part of what you are asking for–backtracking to pinpoint the cause of outbreaks–would similarly be very helpful to farmers. I’m not sure if this is part of extension, but it could happen as part of a partnership between extension and public health.
All this requires a huge paradigm shift, from regarding raw milk as inherently unsafe to treating it as another food.
I work as an Extension Specialist in Soil Fertility at Rutgers. I have been diligently collecting and organizing every aspect of raw milk literature, science, history, legal, political etc. I have yet to come across a single Extension publication (other than breast feeding) concerned with teaching dairy farmers about how to most safely produce raw milk for the direct human consumption market. That seems like an amazing void in the mission of the Agricultural Extension Service given that in 2014 they are celebrating the 100th anniversary. Hopefully this will change with Extension in its 2nd century.
http://www.eco-action.org/dt/thinking.html
MrJohn,
Here is another clue. We are dealing with a whole system,not just one microbe that needs to be eliminated no matter what the cost to the system.
http://johngerber.world.edu/2012/06/19/systems_thinking/
It is because listeria does not do well in the raw milk environment. Thus competitive exclusion. This is a solid proof that something like pathogen killing is going on quite atively. We do not understand this well and the change of PH, conditions, chemistry, biodiversity all change this effect. But overall, you get the notion.
On the same hand…when BSK labs innoculated OPDC raw milk with millions of salmonella back in 2004, in less than 24 hours, no salmonella could be detected or found in the same vial. Not sure why either. However, when that same test was performed on ecoli 0157H7 it did not die off but in decreased in numbers over many days and failed to thrive…but it did survive.
My point here is that blancket statements rarely work. There is so much more to science and how nature works. Raw milk does have an effect on pathogens….but how much, over what time, and on what kind at what temp…everything changes with the change in variables. To make a claim or statement that raw milk kills or controls all pathogens all of the time is where people get into trouble. Simply not true. However….undercertain conditions raw milk tends to have certain effects on certain pathogens is a truer statement.
_______________
Perhaps one answer is an overabundance of nickel. Download this for information:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CD8QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ic.ucsc.edu%2F~saltikov%2Fcourses_backup%2Farchive_files%2FNies_1999.pdf&ei=HzH-UoicFsemygGb6YCgDA&usg=AFQjCNEYoKFuPjuEKtDh4ujfso6XGciiLA&bvm=bv.61190604,d.dmQ
Nickel has an important function in the pathogenicity of Helicobacter pylori, a gram-negative bacterium causing gastritis and peptic ulcer disease in humans. For the colonization of the gastric mucosa, H. pylori needs to produce urease to deal with the acidic environment by producing ammonia from urea (Mobley et al. 1995b). Urease production and function depend on the avail- ability of nickel (Evans et al. 1991; Hawtin et al. 1991; Hu and Mobley 1993; Mobley 1996; Mobley et al. 1995a). Thus, H. pylori has an extensive array of nickel transport proteins…
___________________
If we are suffering from an overabundance of a particular metal (necessary in small amounts but toxic in larger concentrations) and a naturally occurring bacterium engages to rid us of the extra, and we become symptomatic, what exactly are we doing when we respond by killing that bacterium? And important for our discussions here, What are we doing when we test for the presence of h pylori (in any concentration) as a health assessment?
An epidemic of our day is micro-vision. We should realize that what we see through the lens of a microscope tells us only what we can reasonably infer from focusing on a tiny part of a huge landscape.
I think that “Extensions” have a huge role to fill, and am glad you’ve stepped up. As to “an amazing void in the mission of the Agricultural Extension Service given that in 2014 they are celebrating the 100th anniversary” I would begin by questioning the bovernment regulators role in suppression or prohibition of said studies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O4TqdhtDJQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah2x1Enu7Go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah2x1Enu7Go
No one is suggesting that you practice looser sanitation however focusing on sanitation alone is a loosing dead end struggle if tptb fail to address the true cause of illness.
If you backtrack to Davids article posted on October16, 2013 I made a comment with respect to your reply to Pete. I stated, I applaud your effort to produce healthy raw milk. You have an excellent protocol.
http://thecompletepatient.com/article/2013/october/17/rawmi-session-brings-together-key-parties-raw-milk-debate-grange-event-food
The reason why competitive exclusion keeps creeping into the discussion on this blog is due to accusations made by those disagreeing with Sally Fallon and the WAPFs persistent endorsement of the process.
That being said competitive exclusion is what gives milk its self-preserving qualities and this process has served humanity well over the last several thousand years. There are still cultures today that take advantage of this unique quality of milk in order to preserve meat and fish etc. for extended periods of time.
Ken
As for listeria, it is the most deadly pathogen–causes the most deaths regardless of food source. Thank goodness, for whatever reason, it does not appear to be the pathogen to worry about with fluid raw milk. Campy and E.coli 0157:H7 are the winners with raw milk.
For those persons who suffer a Listeria infection that does not resolve on its own, the complications (or sequelae) can be many. [4, 28] The most common is septicemia (bacterial pathogens in the blood, also known as bacteremia), with meningitis being the second most common. [4, 18] Other complications can include inflammation of the brain or brain stem (encephalitis), brain abscess, inflammation of the heart-membrane (endocarditis), and localized infection, either internally or of the skin. [18] Death is the most severe consequence of listeriosis, and it is tragically common. [3] For example, based on 2009 FoodNet surveillance data, 89.2% of Listeria patients ended up in the hospital, the highest hospitalization rate for pathogenic bacterial infection. [10] In persons 50 years of age and older, there was a 17.5% fatality ratealso the highest relative to other pathogens. [10, 18]
It probably also means it’s very effective at killing EVERYTHING. If I choose to eat dead wood, I’ll just have some dead wood thank you. Anybody ever get sick from that? And thanks for not replying to my posts, it saves us lots of usless keystrokes and electron inflammations I’ll try and do the same. Oh the drama, is so hard to resist. I’m not a big fan of Surveillance Data or Percentages sorry.
Sequelae, they were really awsome in their heyday but 10 Years After the Zero Outbreaks needed a better singer as did Tragically Common, just saying never mind the Severe Consequences, Brain Stem Abscess and I think Non-Cents were the headliners. Btw do you boil everything you eat and drink? Don’t answer that
Great observation about ecoli 0157H7 and pasteurized milk. It really does demonstrate that the variables are many. We do know that Listeria loves a vacuum. In a pasteurization plant, there are many areas that provide for pseudamonas to start creating their little biofilms…next comes listeria, its ugly step sister. The cleaners used in pasteurization plants also tend to create the vacuum needed for listeria to flourish with out powerful competition.
Back to Ecoli 0157H7. in my humble opinion…it is the really bad guy to watch for in raw milk. The bacterial thresh hold for illness is low, the victums are mostly young, HUS is very ugly and really can not be treated very well with anti-biotics.
That is why coliform testing is so awesome!! With coliforms in the extremly low range ( less than 1 or 3 or so or even less than 20 or 30 Dr. Cat talks about x logs being the measure to worry about ) our best scientists tell us that the odds of ecoli pathogens getting one of our consumers sick is extremely low. It is practically impossible. Every ecoli 0157h7outbreak I have scene…have also been associated with high coliforms. if you do not measure coliforms…then it will be a surprize to everyone.
So keep your ecoli 0157H7 in check by keeping your coliforms under constant surveilance and very low! At OPDC we have seen our biggest spikes with our cleanest milk filters ( meaning no fecal matter or manure in the milk ). The spikes do not come from fecal sources!!! They come SCC and a cow with mastitis. According to the literature and our UC Davis PhD friends there is no evidence that ecoli 0157H7 pathogens come from inside of the udder….they are ALL fecal born. All very comforting!!
Campy is a different matter and can be from mastitis on rare occasion.
That is why we test 200 times per month and test the heck out of our milk filters. They are much more sensative to pathogen detection than finished product.
In the EU studies, it has been found that 3% of milk filters ( in human consumption intended raw milk ) can test positive in some studies…yet the consumers do not get sick. So…what does this all mean???
We are splitting hairs. When raw milk gets this clean, even a pathogen detection does not mean that illness will result. So….we must all stick with the basics and track the data…we have one heck of a lot more to learn about this “mostly round bacteria dominated planet” we call home.
Are you pointing out a contradiction between your observations and your US Davis PhD friends observations when you state, So keep your ecoli 0157H7 in check by keeping your coliforms under constant surveillance and very low! At OPDC we have seen our biggest spikes with our cleanest milk filters ( meaning no fecal matter or manure in the milk ). The spikes do not come from fecal sources!!! They come from SCC and a cow with mastitis. According to the literature and our UC Davis PhD friends there is no evidence that ecoli 0157H7 pathogens come from inside of the udder….they are ALL fecal born. All very comforting!!
I assume the spikes you are speaking of are related to coliform?
So, if you conclude based on the cleanliness of your filters, that those coliform spikes do not come from fecal sources but rather from SCC and a cow with mastitis, then are you not saying as well based on your recommendation to keep your ecoli 0157H7 in check via constant coliforms surveillance and a very low coliform count that 0157H7 as well is not related to fecal sources but rather SCC and mastitis which are clearly conditions related to the environment in the udder.
There appears to be a contradiction with your UC Davis PhD friends who suggest that there is no evidence that ecoli 0157H7 pathogens come from inside of the udder….they are ALL fecal born.
Ken
… Lady = your schtick is a reprise of the Roman Papa act … you holding up the same old boilerplate statistics is akin to the shaman in his Dagon highhat, a’shakin’ that bogeyman-dead-puppet-onna-stick for all it’s worth. And with about as much effect as his mumbo~jumbo.
…The people who are getting well from drinking REAL MILK, don’t give a tinker’s dam for your doomsday preaching. Old Samuel Johnson said : “the wonder of a woman preaching is like that of a dog walking on his hind legs … not that they do it so well, but that they do it at all”
I just listened to a most interesting podcast over at the Lew Rockwell site. He interviews Bill Sardi (who has much information to share, all good stuff) and way at the end of the podcast he mentions how cattle ranchers should use garlic in any supplemental feed for animals as a way of helping to control bacteria without the use of medical grade antibiotics. He has some other tips in the 23 minute podcast that might be of interest, as well, such as B1 for alzheimers, and a product to help with wet ARMD. Fascinating. You can either go right to Lew’s site and find the info yourself, or you can use this link: http://www.lewrockwell.com/podcast/bill-sardi-defending-health-against-the-government/
I’m not a big believer in the theory that bacteria and pathogens and microbes, etc., are the biggest issue but if that sort of thing rings your bell, this is worth hearing.
To clarify:
Ecoli 0156h7 has yet to be found coming from inside of the udder. I am also saying that SCC and mastitis can drive coliforms crazy high…but the raw milk is not from unclean udders.
Yes…this may appear to be a contradiction….but just a little. It is actually clarifying of the true origins of ecoli 0157H7 and that coliforms are not always the predictor….but a pretty darn good one when considering other variables including super clean udders with the contradiction of very very clean milk filters. In other words….some have said erroneously, that “coliforms are shit in milk”. This is comopletely untrue, but it can be true. There are multiple origins for coliforms in milk. I am saying that SCC is a real driver for coliforms. Yet Mastitis is not an origin for ecoli 0157h7 pathogens.
So, the trick is to look at the whole picture. Since ecoli 0157h7 is a coliform….keep the SCC counts low and the udders and milk filters clean and the risk drops to near zero for ecoli 0157h7 pathogens.
We learn something every day. We also learn the alarmists are absolutely wrong that coliforms are only from fecal sources and that “cow shit in the milk” is but only one of the potential sources. People love to be quoted and say that “raw milk has shit in it”….it makes such good drama.
Well….clean raw milk with high coliforms is actually quite devoid of fecal sources…..it is SCC with mastitis ( not sexy….but generally very much benign as far as human health is concerned ). Not a source of pathogens. Tell that to the TV on your next interview.
On Don and Ben’s podcast #55 David Questioned the Minnesota 17% per 10 year foodborne illness rate for raw milk by saying he’s met hundreds of raw milk consumers who have said they’ve never been sickened by raw milk. Ben seemed to disagree by saying I assume you don’t know everyone that drinks raw milk. but by making this statement he was in fact agreeing, you’d need to meet all 10 million raw milk consumers if you wanted to find the one that got sick. David in effect, got Don to say the chances of getting sick from raw milk are one in 10 million. That’s a one in 10 million negative risk factor. Ben’s response shows he doesn’t understand his own science. So who won the argument?
Besides all that, Minnesota’s 17% per 10 years suggests raw milk has a negative risk factor since the national average for foodborne illness is 15% annually. 15% annually comes out to 150% per 10 years doesnt it?
…
Health officials in Minnesota warned Wednesday that based on a 10-year study. They estimated that more than 17% of the states residents who drank raw milk got sick. By Mary MacVean December 11, 2013
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sn-minnesota-raw-milk-20131211,0,1666103.story#axzz2tOoRRo3j
…
The CDC now estimates that 15% of Americans can expect to have a foodborne illness annually and that 41 in 100,000 will be hospitalized and 1 in 100,000 will die.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1010907
…
Isn’t there anyone on this blog who grew up on pasteurized milk and then switch to raw milk? How was your health before and after? Has you incidence of foodborne illness increased of decreased?
..
A food safety comedy show is an inappropriate venue for a subject as serious as the banning of healthy food especially considering our expiration dates are determined by the food we eat.
…
David was told to start with a question. David asked them to clarify there position on food rights and they could not. Ben contradicted himself and Don just changed the subject. In short they said we should be able to drink raw milk as long as it’s legal and it’s their job to see that it is not.
…
Ben says(40.33 min) his position on raw milk is philosophical, in other words, not science based.
…
What could be the purpose of Don’s comedy show if it isn’t to goat the raw milk community out of the shadows. Why else would he have David and others on the show? Why else would he says: I don’t like your tone. Your factual critique of my raw milk safety comedy act is irritating nonsense that raises my hackles and I’m the last guy in the world whose hackles you want to raise.
….
Developing best practices requires real science not mathematical risk assessment. Allowing a mathematician to tell you what to eat is like going to a podiatrist for a toothache.
…
In the US these people tell us diarrhea is a foodborne illness in Africa they say it’s AIDS.
…
Milk is not and has never been pasteurized to kill foodborne pathogens. Milk is pasteurized to kill bacteria that sour milk and to destroy enzymes that oxidize fat after processing.
Sounds like Don’s talking about himself. By attacking David and Mark he is raising the hackles of the only two guys on this blog sticking up for the food safety community.
…
Don, it’s hyperbole not hyperbowl.
…
Don says he doesn’t like our tone:
Food safety is part of medicine and medicine and raw milk are competitors. So there can be no meaningful discussion between raw milk and food safety. The tone will always be hostile because the two are mutually exclusive. Food safety should have nothing to do with food choice.
We didn’t start this fight.
We’re not the ones with the arrogant childish and often hostile tone.
Irritating is an understatement.
Hyperbole is the definition of food safety.
If they want to make a deal let’s hear it.
Don admits the food safety community thinks raw milk should be illegal.
Threatening to take someones food should be expected to stir at least some emotion.
Talking nice isn’t working anyway. You can’t expect them to quit their jobs.
All we can do is agree to keep silent if they agree to back off.
They are not judges or congressmen. They don’t make the laws.
…
crimethink – To even consider any thought not in line with the principles of Ingsoc. To doubt any of the principles of Ingsoc. 1984 written in 1948.
http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/ct-home.html
food safety professors, Don Schaffner of Rutgers and Ben Chapman of North Carolina State University
http://foodsafetytalk.com/food-safety-talk/2014/2/8/food-safety-talk-55-damn-ignorant-phds
MrJohn, your beliefs may work for a lot of non-raw milk consumers. Some of them may even work on a few people who have dank raw milk all their lives but they don’t work at all for people who have switched to raw milk because they know how sick they were before. They have seen raw milks negative risk factor in action. They have no need for speculation. More importantly, neither does anyone else and here’s why. Just look at the numbers. Everyone is going to experience so called foodborne illnesses many many times in their lives. So there really isn’t any reason for them not to try raw milk and find out for themselves. If it doesn’t work they’ll know in a day or two and they can stop. The same as any medicine.
…
If Marys the best they can come up with year after year they are in effect admitting raw milk is a low risk food.
Thank you for clarifying the paragraph Ken cited. I too was confused by it.
Is there any adverse health effect from drinking raw milk with a high SCC count and/or from a cow with mastitis? Is the taste adversely impacted? I presume the types of coliform that are associated with a high SCC count are not visible on a milk filter. Do they show up if the milk filter is tested?
If the raw milk tests as having near zero coliforms, then the concern about a high SCC count or E. Coli O1:H157 also approaches zero? Are there any issues impacting health that wouldn’t be reflected in the coliform level?
Ken
One of our dairy vet PhD types needs to chyme in here about now.
You wrote “Mastitis is one, it is however the most common.” With the however in there, it sounds like you meant to say it is not the most common.
Mastitis is the most common reason for an elevated somatic cell count, sometimes referred to as white blood cell or leukocyte counts. SCC is a reflection of an animals antibody status and is indicative of a healthy stress modulating and active immune system.
The following article is one of the best I have read on the topic. However, there is one hell of a lot of variation, speculation, and unanswered questions with respect to the results.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1790153/?page=4
Colostrum milk has a high somatic cell count regardless of whether the udder is infected or not and will remain high for up to two weeks following the birth of the calf. This in my opinion is part and parcel of the process for transferring immunity to the calf and is relative to the cows past exposure to various diseases.
Here is something I was not aware of. Time of day and day to day variations also effect SCC and it has been shown that the method of transportation and storage of milk samples as well as the methods used to count the somatic cells all have an influence on the resultant counts.
SCCs tend to be seasonal, lower in winter higher in summer yet it is unclear however as to why this is the case since temperature and humidity variables appear to demonstrate inconsistent SCC readings.
Back in the eighties if my memory is correct the push to lower the somatic cell count was for economic reasons, i.e. to increase cheese yields. It had and still has nothing to do with safety.
SCCs are inversely proportional to cheese yields. There appears to be an inverse relationship to milk yields, so its in the farmers best interest to keep SCC reasonably low. Farmers that use antiseptic teat dips daily and antibiotics in a dry cow treatment regimen in order to maintain low somatic cell counts are doing a disservice the cows internal udder flora, immune system and corresponding overall health and the quality of the milk she produces.
http://www.nmconline.org/articles/sccquality.htm
Ken
“A California mother who almost lost her son to a bacterial infection urged Iowa lawmakers Monday not to legalize the sale of unpasteurized milk.
” Mary McGonigle-Martin recounted how E. coli bacteria infected her son, Christopher, after she gave him unpasteurized milk, also known as raw milk. The damage done by this bacteria is incomprehensible, she said at a Statehouse hearing.”
Ms. McGonigle-Martin, I feel a deep sense of betrayal that you come into this forum and act friendly and respectful and as if you are willing to dialogue/listen and state that you support RAWMI; and yet you are the main public voice supporting farmers being raided and arrested and we can see now that your support for RAWMI is a lie. You are also smart enough to realize that the only end product of your campaign for prohibition is the creation/expansion of a black market. 🙁 There should be a new hashtag in your honour: #blackmarketmary, because that is what you are promoting.
I disagree that the dairy cartel mouthpiece ought to be banned first of all, thats not a decision made by a show of hands. Its up to the website owner. Me = Im all for letting my adversaries speak, as long as I get equal opportunity. Problem is, when guys like me proclaim the truth / shining a light into their endeavors especially their motives + larger agenda – they scurry-off to the authorities with complaints about hate speech .
Unhappily, the herd is slow to wake up to warnings from prophetic types, and so reviles the messenger, before the smoke clears. Last week, I was taken to task for being toxic, and had certain portions of a post censored as a personal attack. But Im vindicated now, arent I?! Call this a teachable moment demonstrating how desperate Big.GaG is, to ruin the Campaign for REAL MILK. The collectivists always over-step demselves. In this fiasco, they used up all credibility of their little sock-puppet ( who shall remain nameless in the interests of decorum)
… when I first encountered her on this forum ( a few years ago?) I had her number right away, which is why I castigated her from the get-go. But I have the advantage on most of you here I go back so far, I remember seeing The Who at the Agrodome in ~1968, singing Wont get fooled again!!!!!
“why should she even be here?” Because ‘there’s nothing so useless it can’t at least be used as a bad example’
Plus she made a submission (“Raw Milk: A Mother’s Story”) to Montana’s legislature as part of a “raw milk legislative packet (summary and listing of documents at http://leg.mt.gov/bills/2013/Minutes/House/Exhibits/agh49a09.pdf).
And she contributed to a highly inflammatory (and by the looks of it, produced by an expensive graphics design firm) anti-raw-milk document being distributed by Iowa Public Health – http://www.iowapha.org/Resources/Documents/32%20Raw%20Milk.pdf
I don’t have time to do a thorough search, but it might be illuminating to start a list of just how many states she has been actively lobbying in, and how many more are on her agenda to visit.
Iowa brought a raw milk bill forward that has zero regulations. It is no different than having black market raw milk. This year was very anticlimactic. The bill was basically dead before it was even near a vote in committee. No one came to testify this year from the pro-raw milk side. I had a lovely talk with Jason Shultz about raw milk safety standards and warning labels. I’m educating him about the dangers of raw milk. You just can’t allow anyone to enter into the business of raw milk production. I’m sure Mark McAfee would agree with this statement 100%.
In Nevada, raw milk is legal. It must be sold in the county it is produced in. They were trying to expand the market to be sold throughout the entire state. Local is safest.
As for Montana. They must have used the legislative package available on The Real Raw Milk Facts website.
Once again let me make my position on raw milk consumption very clear:
1. I will never support feeding children raw milk.
2. Adults can do as they choose and anyone can own a cow or goat and produce their own supply of milk.
3. In states were raw milk is legal, I still do not support feeding children raw milk, but I support making it as safe a humanly possible for those consuming it. That is RAWMI’s goal.
4. In states where it is not legal, I can’t support bills that would legalize raw milk without any regulations. This is a raw milk free-for-all and would end in a tragedy for some unfortunate children.
5. WAPF continues to focus on all the benefits and downplay the risks. I waiting for Sally Fallon and Ted Beals to be honest about the risks. I don’t see this happening anytime soon considering she just testified in Maryland and made the public statement that raw milk kills pathogens.
6. You may not like it, but I speak for all parents who believed raw milk was a healthier choice than pasteurized milk (thank you WAPF) and because of this belief almost killed their children. Since 2005, the count is up to 27 children who developed HUS after drinking contaminated raw milk. And there are 5 or 6 outbreak reports I have not be able to get, so the count may be higher.
Shelly, have you broken down the data for these foods and the pathogen that caused the illnesses and compared it to raw milk illnesses, keeping in mind the percent of the population that consumes each food group?
When people don’t feel they can win an argument they resort to insults.
I decided that I would preserve political progress instead.
Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. Helen Keller
In essence Mary, what you are saying is that it was and is wrong for me to feed raw milk to my children and grandchildren. I appreciate your concern however lets just leave it at that.
You would think that humanity aught to have learnt by now that using fear to toy with peoples minds doesnt work.
I trust you are at peace in your endeavor to convince parents and politicians that your point of view is righteous and worthy enough to be imposed on others.
Ken