Minnesotas relentless decade-long pursuit of dairy farmer Michael Hartmann finally ran off the road, when a state judge ruled earlier this month that the state conducted an illegal search of the farmers truck.
In a strongly worded 30-page opinion, Minnesota Judge Erica MacDonald ruled that a state trooper, with help from the Minnesota Department of Agriculture, illegally searched Hartmanns truck and seized raw milk and cheese after a stop in December 2012. The trooper was allowed to stop the truck when he couldnt see the rear license plate, the judge said, but once he found that the plate was just dirty, and that there was a front license plate, he was obligated to send Hartmann on his way, since there was no violation of motor vehicle or traffic laws. Instead, the trooper called the MDA, which told him to search the truck and confiscate product.
The judges ruling, in response to a filing by Hartmann, has the effect of throwing out the states key evidence in yet another criminal case it has planned against Hartmann for selling raw dairy products to eager Minneapolis-area residents. Hartmann a year ago pleaded guilty to two misdemeanor counts of illegally selling raw milk as part of a plea bargain, sacrificing himself to get misdemeanor charges dropped against his wife and brother. (The state didn’t just target Michael Hartmann, but expanded its campaign to include his entire family.)
The MN battle has featured a clearly vindictive MDA against a farmer determined to stand up for what he feels are his constitutional rights under both the U.S. and Minnesota constitutions. As part of her compilation of events in the case, Judge MacDonald made a reference to MDA investigator James Roettger: Mr. Roettger has been investigating Defendants possible violations of the food laws for approximately ten years.
The state had intensified its pursuit of Hartmann when, in 2010, more than a dozen people were alleged to have been sickened with E.coli O157:H7 in milk from his farm. While agriculture and public health regulators are supposed to allow food producers to resume production once the pathogen problem has abated, that never happened for Hartmann. The states legal assault simply intensified over the last three years, culminating in several seizures of his trucks and food, and the guilty plea and probation a year ago.
Beyond the product seizure issue, Judge MacDonald erected another barrier to the states case by endorsing a 2005 Minnesota Supreme Court ruling some years ago, in a previous case involving Hartmann, that the states constitution, which allows farmers to peddle the products of their farm. She noted that the states Supreme Court specifically gave Hartmann the right to sell meat raised on his farm.
The (Supreme) Court did not deal with whether Defendant adding ingredients from outside of Defendants farm disqualifies certain items he sells as being considered a product of his farm. What is clear is that cheese was directly considered by the Supreme Courts decision, and it concluded that dictionary definitions support the generally accepted notion that meat, cheese, and butter are products of the farm. Thus, Defendant is not required to have a license to sell cheese that he makes on his farm. Defendants production of ice cream and yogurt are another matter. According to testimony, Defendants ice cream contained chocolate chips and vanilla. Chocolate and vanilla are not products produced by Defendant occupying and cultivating his farm. Yogurt also requires bacterial culture, something that Defendant was not producing on his farm. Thus, because yogurt and ice cream are not products of his farm, Defendant is required to have a license to sell these products.
While she didnt mention raw milk, it would seem that if cheese and butter are exempt from licensing, then raw milk is, as well.
Judge MacDonald made clear in her decision that she felt obligated to defend Hartmanns constitutional rights, despite personal misgivings she has about the farmer. She said she considered this case carefully and did not issue (the) opinion cavalierly. It is troublesome that Defendant pled guilty to this Court (a year ago) and gave his word as a condition of probation that he would comply with the requirements of the Minnesota Department of Agriculture but willfully failed to honor that pledge. That being said, the evidence seized pursuant to the search of his truck was seized in violation of his constitutional rights. No matter how frustrated this Court or the State is with his disregard of the law or his word, the violation of Defendants constitutional rights can neither be tolerated nor condoned.
Thats the way its supposed to be. Judges are supposed to back the constitutional rights of all Americans, despite the judges own personal prejudices.
Ironically, Judge MacDonald’s admonishment of Hartmann comes despite the fact that most of her legal opinion amounts to admiration of his persistence in standing up for his constitutional rights and endorsement of his continuing to sell food in accordance with Minnesota’s constitution.
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Even the British Broadcasting Co. (BBC) is beginning to give credence to the notion that saturated fat may not be the danger it is made out to be by the medical establishment. Interesting analysis in their World Business Report article.
It makes me proud to be American to see this judge stand up and render truth to powerful MDA corruption its colusion and excesses of brutal tirany!!
Beret Boy and his Fascist bosses ( look up the definition of Fascist….I am very accurate when this label is used ) just got their collective asses kicked. It is a joyous day for the Hartmans and for all of the American consumers that are trying desparately to “Get to Know their Farmer and Get to Know their Food!!” and just trying to find some delicious, non allergenic and digestible raw milk for their families and children!
Mark, your reference to “Beret Boy” reminds me of the video from which I drew the photo of MDA agent Roettger. It’s a video of a confiscation of Hartmann Dairy milk in December 2010–a video well worth watching to appreciate the intensity of the campaign against the Hartmann family.
Yes, that’s the reaction I’ve had viewing this and other similar confiscations. A government trying to starve its people of real food.
RMM, your reverse red cross and handicap tag observations are good, I’d like to quote you.
Hooray for the Vermont news, Mark!
Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard
Ok…I know that the suspense is palpable. You just have to wait and hear from Edwin.
Food Safety and Farmer responsibility is part of our culture and liability laws. No getting arround it. According to the FDA shipping a food product over a state line with a pathogen on it…is a criminal act.
So… us farmers must be very very on our game game and we must have plans and processes in place to control this unknown biological hitch-hiking. However…that is the FDA, on the otherhand the USDA does not seem to care very much about biological hitch-hikers. Foster Farms chicken gets to back-pack all the Salmonella that it can carry anywhere in the USA and that is an expected business practice.
What is a farmer to do when authorities claim that their milk is responsible for causing an illness yet they, and private testing are unable to isolate the so-called villain?
You refer to these biological hitchhikers as unknown. I am curious how do you control what you do not know or, are unable to identify.
Ken
You have a great question. I think I have a great answer.
Let me take a second and explain how STEC Ecoli 0157H7 can be effectively controlled.
First of all it is not about testing for pathogens. In very clean raw milk, that pathogen search is very ellusive. Test one side of the tank and the bad bugger is on the other side of the tank. If you want to test for pathogens…take a pointer from Dr. Cat Berge DVM Phd ( RAWMI Board ) or some others and test the Milk Sock ( use a culturing process to find the pathogens in the sock ).
It is better to test for the conditions that suggest that STEC Ecoli 0157H7 or one of its ugly step sisters is present. This is very effective. If there are very very few if any coliforms, then there can literally be no Ecoli 0157H7. Statistically this is accurate because Ecoli 0157H7 is a family member inside of the coliform clan. Even more importantly, it takes a LOAD of pathogens to make even the most suseptible Host sick. It has been suggested that Ecoli 0157H7 has one of the lowest loads required to trigger illness, that is why having super low coliform counts almost assures zero ( very very low risk ) chance of HUS or STEC illness.
The other controls used to reduce risk is the environmental conditions, nutritional and health conditions of the cows. A super clean udder, quickly chilled milk and a clean milk line is also at the top of the LIST.
These are the biggies. A comprehensive RAMP plan addresses the rest of the identified risks and manages those as well. Our current LIST of RAWMI producers have this down cold!!
The problem we have with an emerging national raw milk market and the rumor mill that is rapidly and virally inviting consumers to go local and buy raw milk…is that the emerging markets are far ahead of the intellectual properties used on the raw milk dairies that produce this raw milk. They have near complete ignorance of RAMP type programs. The farmers do not get it yet.
An warning or advisory that the raw milk may contain a pathogen is not a suitable excuse. In fact it sucks…it is a tragic and pathetic excuse. It admits ignorance and it excuses lazziness. It is about time raw milk dairymen smell the coffee and wake up to follow RAMP plans even if they never become LISTED.
The only defense against nine patrol cars and a multiple agency farm raid because some kid is sick or says he is sick…is planned powerful prevention.
When ever one of these cow shares or raw milk new comers makes the news….I cringe. This risk is very much manageable and that would also mean that the price point would reflect the intensive program required. Less than$6 per gallon is someplace along the lines of MOOOSHINE. This price point does not reflect the level of management or scrunity required for low risk raw milk. Cheap raw milk is a HUGE RED FLAG.
Pete, I would say that E.coli O157:H7 is a relatively recent phenomenon, a product of our factory feed lots, that has infested the food chain, including small sustainable dairies. It was first discovered in 1982. Doesn’t mean it wasn’t around before, but likely not in the mutant form that has created so much carnage, including hemolytic uremic syndrome (HUS). So even though raw dairies didn’t create this highly dangerous pathogen, they must deal with it, and the RAMP programs are one way.
We have ways to deal with this. The one thing we have a hard time addressing is the FDA marriage with corporate industrial priorities. Us farmers and the raw milk consumers do not seem to rank high enough to matter at all. So… What else can we do but ignore the FDA until we are a big enough market force to get their serious attention.
I notice an exclusive fixation on potential pathogens here, which mirrors perfectly the system ideology. Is this the Stockholm syndrome, or is it, as some critics have alleged, part of an attempt at raw milk consolidation?
The broad-brush smear based on an arbitrary price point is another example of the kicking downward we’ve often seen here. We pay $5 a gallon in NY at a dairy that’s been around for years with nary a hint of a complaint from any of its many customers.
The fact that this Tennessee producer thought that their adequate protection was simply warning the share owners of possible contamination by a dreaded pathogen….that is no safety program at all.
Where is the thought…where is the concern….where is the dillegence to protect and prevent the problem to begin with??? It is heartless to just excuse the pathogen because of the warning.
Raw Milk producers must really care as humans about the health of their consumers or they are not really raw milk producers. I would describe these kinds of producers as a survivors of the PMO that are trying to save the farm and save themselves from starvation. That is not what raw milk is all about.
Raw milk is a consumer focussed, high value medical food with incredible powers of prevention and nutrition. It can be dangerous and it can also be one of the safest foods on earth. All of this depends on the MIND SET, commitment, practices and conditions.
I do agree that pathogens are just a modern day fixation adn label. They are part of life on earth and are just as much a part of life as we are. We have picked on them with some Frankenstein technologies and now the freak is out among us!! Serves us right for screwing arround with nature. The unfortunate thing is that the weakest of us suffer the most and they are the ones that need raw milk the most. Sadly, all very Darwinian.
We pay $5 a gallon and have paid this price for the last year and a half, previous to that it was $4. We are located in the SE US and buy our milk in a state where it is legal for human consumption, having said that.
We have gotten to know our farmer. We toured his facilities saw his milk processing facility, he can milk up to 8 cows at a time. He has spent thousands of dollars on upgrading his equipment for his raw milk side of the business. New SS tank, new lines, bottling equipment, etc. He has around 100 Jerseys on his farm.
His cows are tested monthly and has not had a coliform issue ever. I remember when this site was discussing the low coliform number requirement and some were complaing about it. His response to the complaints…it isn’t difficult we have done it for years.
So yes, cheap prices may be a red flag or it may be that you are in a state that doesn’t have CA view point of taxation and other BS.
know your farmer, his practices, his facilities, his cows. THAT, is the priority. Use common sense.
that begs the question of ‘what’s the reason for racial discrimination?’. Please elaborate on Who, or What, you think is the Entity that prefers the interests of one breed over another? Is your God the original racist? If so, what do you think he/she/it has in mind, allowing … even facilitating? … white people to have all this wealth & privilege? How come Caucasians are atop the food chain, able to pay $20 per gallon for REAL MILK, while the rest of the world lives on $2 per day?
The McBees were commercial dairy farmers but I can assure you, they are raw milk believers. Marcie is in the throws of a milk diet herself at the moment to heal some chronic health issues. They are very consumer focused. That they are saving themselves from starvation is certainly a valid goal as well. Clean raw milk & a healthy income for the farmer should not and cannot be mutually exclusive or there will not be clean raw milk available.
I will also add that a RAMP plan and testing is all well and good but you cannot inspect in quality. This is a basic quality principle I learned working as an engineer in a number of large corporations. I have seen tiny businesses completely incapable of producing a quality part get large contracts for critical parts by having a written quality plan. Visiting and inspecting the source are critical.
The McBees recognized that outside testing was not going to get them the information they need on a day to day basis to ensure the cleanliness of their milk. They are, in fact, in the process of setting up their own little lab to test their milk. This is what is needed to put true “TQM” methods into place and have real time feedback to correct problems in the process. As I recall, The Family Cow Dairy was doing regular outside testing and was STILL accused of producing contaminated milk.
So the McBees are NOT “simply warning the share owners”. They are making certain that their share owners are educated about the risks…..the State of Tennessee & the local health department seem to think this is important for them to do so they are complying.
I have had my own milk cows for more than 7 years. I produce milk & dairy products for my own family. My general opinion is that raw milk is always safe unless you do something majorly egregious like feed pounds & pounds of grain with no roughage and make the cow sick.
So here are my questions.
1) Why is it that the whole story on these outbreaks never seems to come out with a “lessons learned”? And don’t tell me it is because they didn’t have a written plan & test monthly.
2) When dairy cows shed ecoli 0157 is it being shed from the udder? I suspect no as the cow would have terrible mastitis leading to gangrene and consequent sloughing of the quarter(s).
3) How does salmonella, campy, etc. get into the milk? Mark, you mentioned on another thread on this blog recently that one of these pathogens was found in the udder(s) of cows at The Family Cow dairy. Is this the case? If so, why is this not discussed on this blog or elsewhere in detail?
4) Can a home/on farm test kit for pathogens be put together for small producers to purchase? More than just SCC. I’ve seen ecoli & listeria test materials for lab use so there must be something to help monitor pathogens ON THE FARM.
5) Does grass feeding really reduce the incidence of ecoli O157 in cows? I have read in the last 24 hours that it does and that it does not. Which is it?
There are thousands of family cow owners (plus goat, sheep, etc. owners) out there now that need this sort of information. We are not going away.
And as I know you have done it before, Mark, I suggest you reach out to the McBees and do what you can to help them as I have seen you do with so many other raw milk producers.
On the issue of the police cars lining the road…totally agree that it is insanity and very troubling and shocking that this level of military force is invoked because of and alleged outbreak of illness. Where was the swat team at the Foster Farm’s plant?
However, just to play the devil’s advocate here…while I DON’T condone the police presence…I do believe that if we really want safe food, we need to acknowledge that when food is procured directly between farmer and consumer, should there be a problem, or a potential problem, or an alleged problem with food-borne illness, it is MUCH easier to contain said problem when the food-source and its distribution range is known.
One of the reasons that small farms can be targeted is because we actually know where that food came from, and who consumed it! That is not a bad thing. One thing that comforts me about our quality plan for our herdshare is that I know where each and every drop of milk, each egg, each bag of greens that leave our farm goes. We have a relationship with every one of our farm members. If we ever suspected a problem, our recall and containment plan is about our iron-clad as they come.
On Mark’s concern for newbie raw milk producers responding to the market demmand without having a good plan….the more we build community among producers of all sizes and scales, and the more we offer information, solutions, and innovations, the better raw milk options we will have. I live in a very unpopulated, rural area. However, within the last couple of months, I have spoken with 5 new, or soon-to-be new local raw milk producers, all of whom are hungry for knowledge about how they can produce milk with excellence for their communities.
They are seeking practical innovations that work on their scale for milk cooling, building clean rooms for washing equipment, milk jar handling solutions, and where to test their milk and their livestock affordably. Its basic stuff. Self-regulation and an open commitment to excellence may not be the solution for over-regulation, but I think it cannot hurt. It also certainly builds customer and community support.
You will find help if you contact RAWMI. This is why we originally contacted them….because I wanted answers to my questions, and no one else seemed to be able (or willing) to dialogue with me. I called the California Department of Food & Ag, and they told me to build a 1/4 million dollar milking facility and apply for a dairy license…then they would talk to us. (Not helpful)
I would also be happy to respond to your specific questions privately (unless David wants me to totally run away with the comment section here!) if you contact me through our website at http://www.kidcreekpastures.com and provide me with your email address. You can also view our milk quality plan there, which may be helpful. The RAWMI website also make available the RAMP plans from their listed farmer. We learned a lot from reading about the practices of other farms.
Another great source is Charlotte Smith’s website http://www.rawmilkpro.com. She releases training videos from time to time that are helpful.
The one question that I do not yet have an answer for is #1….”1) Why is it that the whole story on these outbreaks never seems to come out with a “lessons learned”? And don’t tell me it is because they didn’t have a written plan & test monthly.”
Gordon, you’re back. You still haven’t responded to the question. Was our progenitor, Jacob white or black?
Shawna cc’ed me the answers to your questions about pathogens shedding from inside the UDDER. Those are great answers….I agree 100%. Yes pathogens can come from inside udders but it is not the primary area of concern. SCC would generally tell you that something is really wrong. A healthy non mastitic udder does not produce pathogens ( hate to be absolute…but there is no evidence anywhere to suggest that a healthy udder produces pathogens in the milk ). Fecal contamination is the primary concern. Edwin Shank discovered after extensive searching that one of his cows probably had Campylobacter Mastitis and that cow had a very high SCC. The good news is that mastitis can be detected using a DHIA test and or CMT etc. Low SCC and Low Coliforms do the pathogen free trick 99.999% of the time. There is no such thing as perfect, but you can get pretty darn close.
An on farm lab is great stuff, but it is not the complete answer. The complete answer lies in a PLAN that includes testing as a confirmation or verification that your PLAN works!
You can test all that you want and it is like saying….well that is interesting…that raw milk left the farm two days ago!!! ??? Whoops…. that does not work. Technology is not quite quick enough yet for immediate results in an hour. Currently, raw milk is already consumed and in some ones toilet when we get results back from a lab or ourselves in our own labs.
Testing is not the safety net. The RAMP plan is the safety net and the testing protocols just confirm that the NET is in place and actually working. Testing takes time. Time that raw milk does not have. But…with a good testing protocol on top of a good RAMP plan…the testing is predictive of what your RAMP plan is actually providing to you.
There are a couple of very old but very good sayings:
“What gets measured gets done.”
“The best predictor of future human events is the measure of past human events”.
Both of these apply religiously when it comes to low risk raw milk!
If you have plan that is followed with precision and the tests are always the same from that plan, then it stands to reason that as long as that plan is the plan…the results should stay constant.
That is why having a bacteria lab on the farm is a great move forward and shows a great mindset, and dedication, but it is just a part of the greater system of controls. I would not recommend doing pathogen testing on farm unless a very serious BIO control program is in place. An on farm pathogen growing protocol is asking for serious farm contamination with a well fed super bug. This is something you never want. It is far smarter and faster to cheaply test for the conditions that predispose of pathogens…ie Coliforms levels.
Also….no need to test every batch of raw milk if your RAMP plan is constant. Just test enough to confirm that your plans work! When test data is tracked…that track record points directly to the future performance and track record.
Mark
“PMO Food Inc. Ditch” and will not extricate themselves for fear of somehow admitting that maybe all of the UC Davis research, IMGC, EU QMRA’s and the 7 EU peer reviewed and published raw milk studies are absolutely correct.
If I worked for the FDA in the milk branch area…I would start distancing myself from the hardliners and start making some behind the scene collaboration development calls to RAWMI. The end is near for them.
This farm does not do their own testing on site if that was directed to my comments. They used to provide milk to Whole Foods with never an issue.
You make some assumptions in your response..and then go on to comment on your assumptions, fact that your assumptions aren’t correct doesn’t seem to matter. Your goal is to push RAWMI on all farmers and if someone rejects that thought then shame on them.
perhaps, just perhaps, you aren’t the first one to come up with a safety plan to protect your customers. It is common sense to do so if you are going to sell raw milk or any product. They have had their own safety program in place long before this blog or your pushing of RAWMI.
So is RAWMI the only answer that is allowable in your opinion? Does every farmer need to have you examine their safety plan or it isn’t good enough? When do YOU turn into what you protest, or have you already done so?
I am going to be honest, there is something about RAWMI that bothers me. I am still of the mindset that if milk were not safe coming from the udder, the human race would not be here today. That said, it does seem there are pathogens that are more virulent today and I want to avoid them.
This is the last time I’m going to deal with your cavils since – obviously – you’re not here to help with the Campaign for REAL MILK. You’re another Bill Anderson / Mary Mc M … sent in to wear out the saints.
anyone who proposes that “Jesus of Nazareth” was “black” – by which I guess you mean “Negroid” ? – bears the onus of coming up with a shred of evidence to substantiate that ridiculous notion. As one wise judge put it : “the nature of evidence is that it can be tested. If it can’t be tested, it’s not evidence” In the statuary / bas-reliefs / artworks of every kind surviving from the Jewish era, circa the year Zero ( a little levity there, folks) we see Caucasian features on the inhabitants of Palestine. Better yet : Start with the Behustan Rock … a depiction of the Israelites being led into captivity about 700 years earlier. They didn’t look like Barry Suetoro, let alone James Brown
Now pushing the patience of David Gumpert for this very-far-off topic: the answer to yr question is that the man Jacob Israel was indeed “white”, and his offspring = us = bred true-to type for the next 3 millennia, as long as we harkened to our religion and kept ourselves separate from the world. A matter of no small import, that the Big Rancher in the Sky dictated to Moses, to tell the ones he’d chosen as his servants, Israel, that mis-cegenation is a death-penalty offence.
I highly recommend you read the Manufacturers Handbook = the Bible = and acquaint yrself with the agricultural laws / best practices on the planet.
Actually, anyone else who milks and sells it could answer the question, too, if they’re of a mind to do so.
Thanks.
Should we assume that if a farm doesn’t work with RAWMI that they don’t have a good plan? Absolutely not. Farmers can and have produced high quality raw milk without RAWMI, clearly. Again, RAWMI is an optional resource for those who feel it is a benefit, OR for those who already have a great plan and are willing to help others along the way through mentorship.
What milk costs in one state, or in one area verses another depends on so many factors: regulations, scale, quality, feed prices, climate. If you really want to understand price factors, you have to ask your farmer how they arrive at their cost. What may be “cheap” in one area, under one set of circumstances, may not be cheap in another.
He will defy the Most High and oppress the holy people of the Most High. He will try to change their sacred festivals and laws, and they will be placed under his control for a time, times, and half a time.
………………………………………………………
Family cow farm-stand, We produce small amounts of fresh, unpasteurized milk. Our milk is a healthy, whole food with amazing flavor. We deliver through our MILK SHARE program and sell milk to drop-in customers at our self-serve farmstand in Hinesburg, Vermont, which is always open.
http://www.familycowfarmstand.com/
Hinesburg’s Black History
Historian Elise A. Guyette’s new book about the black families who farmed and thrived there for 70 years.
http://www.7dvt.com/2010black-history-hinesburg
The one thing RAWMI offers is a community of safe mentors. RAWMI was founded on the idea that “we is far better than me” and that a community of like minded raw milk producers with a plan that they developed for themselves could help themselves and others to produce the safest and best quality raw milk possible.
You may have noticed that the RAWMI LISTED people that post here are all very positive people that try to learn themselves and help everyone else as best they can.
Perhaps the readers of this blog can simply just resign themselves to the impossible idea…that RAWMI is a wonderful space, a great tool and a great community. It is open for all to appreciate and use and it is forced on no one. I have found it very interesting that when Arkansas changed their laws in the last few months, that the interviews of some of the producers exclaimed that they would be following RAWMI RAMP plans and standards….I have never spoken to anyone from Arkansas. That is how RAWMI is supposed to work!! Education should be available to all that want to follow the examples, the principles and processes offered by the LISTED daiymen and women. The RAWMI community is made of tenacious students that are humbled by the fact that we know little when compared to the possible body of knowledge on the raw milk subject. But…we are gaining more knowledge everyday as we surround ourselves with resources that support and help us. We just try our very best to apply our RAMP plans and the results appear to be verifiably excellent.
No more raw milk chaos across America!! A chaos celebrated by industry and silently encouraged by the FDA..unfortunately. This will all change soon…you watch.
http://www.gmwatch.org/index.php/news/archive/2012/14520-roundup-harms-beneficial-gut-bacteria-study
http://www.gmwatch.org/index.php/news/archive/2013/14715-how-gmo-farming-and-food-is-making-our-gut-flora-unfriendly
Around here it’s the same. I know lots of people who would love to use non-GM feed but can’t afford organic and/or have trouble finding it. We’ve tossed around the idea of trying to grow non-GM grain to serve local feed needs, but that doesn’t seem like one of the more economically doable ideas we’ve considered.
Here’s links on how glyphosate-laced feed leads to devastating malnutrition.
http://www.gmwatch.org/index.php/news/archive/2013/15008-torturing-animals-with-monsanto-s-gm-feed
http://www.gmwatch.org/index.php/news/archive/2013/15059-glyphosate-is-toxic-to-dairy-cows
And then there’s Don Huber’s findings.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/12/10/dr-don-huber-interview-part-1.aspx
Dr. Mercola Interviews Dr. Huber about GMO
http://youtu.be/X4swW9OFmf8
Minnesota Statute
343.36 GREASED PIG CONTESTS AND TURKEY SCRAMBLES.
No person shall operate, run or participate in a contest, game, or other like activity, in which a pig, greased, oiled or otherwise, is released and wherein the object is the capture of the pig, or in which a chicken or turkey is released or thrown into the air and wherein the object is the capture of the chicken or turkey. Any violation of this section is a misdemeanor.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=343.36
…and these are the same folks protecting the citizens of Minnesota….
–bill
Today I was reamed out by an 80 year old heavy European accent caller that said ” he would never buy another OPDC product again because when he left it out in the sun all day long…it would not become yogurt like all the rest of the raw milk he had bought in other countries”.
This is a FIRST for me. We can not get our raw milk to clabber for at least 2 sometimes three days. Why?….it is too clean. I tried my best to calmly speak to this non gentleman…he just yelled at me and said that I was placing something into the milk to make it last.
Weird how peoples inner voices dominate their comments and it is not possible to educate them about how clean raw milk actually is when it comes out of a healthy cow. That quickly clabboring raw milk he is used to is actually high bacteria raw milk that was contaminated with surfaces that are far from clean by the humans that milked the cow. This guy yelled at me and hung up.
Oh…the pleasures of being consumer connected. I even offered to send him Lab tests showing low bacteria counts for the cap date he was reporting that would not clabber.
As a raw milk dairyman, sometimes I feel like I am still a paramedic responding to EMA 911 ( 5150 ) psych crisis calls.
Maybe if not RAWMI, then another place people (farmers, consumers, regulators, etc) can go to get information/education/training?
Dr, Huber states, Lactobacillus, Bifidobacterium, Enterococcus faecalisthese are organisms that keep you healthy either by providing accessibility to the minerals in your food or producing many of the vitamins that you need for life. Theyre also the natural biological defenses to keep Clostridium, Salmonella, and E.coli from developing in your system.
When you take the good bacteria out, then the bad bacteria fill that void, because there arent any voids in nature. We have all of these gut-related problems, whether its autism, leaky gut, C. difficile diarrhea, gluten intolerance, or any of the other problems. All of these diseases are an expression of disruption of that intestinal microflora that keeps you healthy.
Programs such as RAWMI, which focuses on eliminating so-called pathogens, in essence go hand in hand with current regulatory protocol, which places the entire onus on the farmer in order to mitigate these so-called food born illnesses. Now, although I believe that farmers have a responsibility to produce healthy food the above focus fails to appropriately address the current dilemma that nurtures illness.
Farmers are being placed in a robing Peter to pay Paul scenario, by essentially attempting to create a void (eliminate a debt) in order to mitigate illness for which in such a scenario as Dr. Huber correctly states there arent any voids (restitution). Eventually we are going to have to pay the piper and recognize the futility of our controlling ways and failure to coexist with nature.
Clearly there are different beliefs as to what constitutes healthy food and production practices.
Is it about prevailing beliefs and if so whose belief will prevail?
The milk that I produce, consume, and feed to my family is not subject to government regulation or inspection and that is the way I intend to keep it.
I do not preoccupy myself about any specific microbe that may be present in my milk but rather that my cows are healthy and if my cows are healthy so will the milk and all microbes present.
Ken
That’s part of why I think the focus on testing for potential pathogens and purging them as much as possible, while having its place as a prophylactic measure, is wrongheaded where it claims to be the primary practice and philosophy. In that case it’s merely trying to go back to the original filth-contexted debate, should the focus be on after-the-fact pasteurization or facility sterilization (with its concomitant testing regimes)?
But the point is to reject the filth-based industrial system itself, not to take up a different meme from it.
What are your udder cleaning/dip practices?
If your milk is left out in the sun for an entire day and doesnt culture then your milk is lacking in valuable self-preserving, probiotic qualities.
I would be concerned if I were you.
Ken
All these feed items are non GMO at this point.
There are some existing clearing houses, I think, for new milkers. Keeping A Family Cow’s forum is certainly a great place for anyone to start looking. I would really like to see more public information posted at the RAWMI website. And I must say, it has been a joy to converse with Shawna and share ideas & information. I personally, as I may have noted, have created a private Facebook group for people in our area (Knoxville/Chattanooga/North Georgia) to share & support. After the Oregon incident at Foundation Farm last year, and knowing that the number of family milkers is growing exponentially, I thought it would be nice to help newbies and share with other experienced people.
http://www.wate.com/story/23873989/alert-issued-for-raw-milk-and-other-products-from-knox-county-farm
“The health department’s first batch of test results from McBee farm have come back negative for E. coli bacteria. Results from a more recent round of tests have not yet come in. “
http://news.tn.gov/node/11632
What a load of hooey.
Same here in BC. … if we’d simply looked after our own needs, our cowshare wouldn’t have got in trouble with the govt. . But I determined from the outset that REAL MILK is so vitally-important to the health of our children, that it MUST be available, somehow. If that means compromising with the Babylonian system : so be it. Had I arranged for bribes to right addresses- it would be fait accomplis now. Such kickbacks would’ve trickled-down to hands held out, and I’d have “specialty quota” with smirks all ’round at whatever cover-story they cooked up. That’s how it’s done in the communist model.
But my approach of dead honesty, turned it into a full-tilt challenge turning on the right to use and enjoy one’s property. Confer : Jonathan Swift’s piece re lawyers arguing about “who owns the cow” in his classic Gulliver’s Travels
IMHO consumers have equal responsibility for food safety. How many consumers actively prevent cross-contamination in their kitchens? How many of them know how to properly transport and store raw milk at the right temperature and in the right containers? How many of them know what questions to ask when choosing a farmer?
“The milk that I produce, consume, and feed to my family is not subject to government regulation or inspection and that is the way I intend to keep it.’
Ken, you’re lucky. Here in Canada, it’s illegal by federal law to sell raw milk, and ALL milk is a “regulated product” under provincial government law even if you even just own a family cow. I think that this is what your own government wants to impose on you too. 🙁
I live about four hours north of Toronto. Ive been milking jersey cows for 50 years.
Yes it is illegal to sell milk in Canada, however that does not stop dairy farmers from selling it on the side. Ive had several families who raised their children on the raw milk they bought from me for over twenty years. Two of them were nurses, three were teachers, there were several retired couples, and a parish priest who was in his eighties who couldnt tolerate pasteurized milk.
Ken
Where I came in on this whole thing, was, 2001, when I got a response from the Min of Agriculture, stating on official stationery of the Province of B. C. that raw milk from a cow which we = jointly = own, is NOT regulated by the Milk Industry Act RSBC. Thereafter, I got the same thing, even stronger, on the official stationery of the Min of Health / Food Safety Branch. One would think that’d be more than enough to fend off the idiots. But “no”. See the wording of those Letters of Comfort, on my website < www.freewebs.com/bovinity >
During the 5-year persecution of our cowshare, it went sideways – they lost the excuse that it was ever about “health”, so that the central issue now in my appeal, is “the ancient British right to use and enjoy one’s property”, versus regulation under Marx-ism.
Fortunately for me, the guy who was the Min of Ag / wrote me that letter, is very much out of favour with his former colleagues in the BC Leg. I was denied subpoena-ing him to our Court hearing ( last Feb.) but John van Dongen has the potential to “blow the doors off this thing”, when he does cop-out. This morning, the Freedom of Information officer called me to say that there’s another 300 pages of records, being withheld from me, to do with ‘raw milk / the Home on the Range raw milk cowshare’. This thing is grinding-along glacially, but “the Truth will out”
2) The pathogen E. coli lives in an animals intestinal tract and is spread to the outside environment through its manure. You send a fecal sample to a lab to see if your cow(s) are shedding.
3) get in touch with a really good vet at a lab and educate yourself on this. Every raw milk producer should be required to take a college course in microbiology – it will open your eyes.
4) you don’t want to be culturing pathogens on your farm – this would be a bio-hazard. Send the sample to a certified lab trained in this.
5) there are very successful dairies who have to feed all hay due to weather and they have no incidence of E. coli 0157. Foundation Farm had cows on pastures and had E. coli in their milk. You can not take a dairy with no safety plan in place, no regular testing, filthy conditions, and just feed grass in hopes of reducing the chance of E. coli. It’s a holistic endeavor. It’s not black and white. Farms with safety plans in place and regular testing to check the safety plans are working can feed both hay or pasture successfully.
And lastly, your number 1) Good idea! Since there’s no program requiring this, why don’t you take this project on, contact the farmers and the people involved and try to get lessons learned. Foundation Farm people have disappeared and won’t talk to you. Try some others though – maybe they will share their woulda/coulda/shoulda’s.
Hope this helps – see you over on rawmilkpro.com sometime. You can always ask your questions there and I’ll do a post on it, then 100’s of producers who read it will benefit, too.
xx
Charlotte
We don’t need to change those laws. What we are doing, is, asserting our racial heritage in the face of our enemies. All over the British common law world – which includes the U. S. of A. – it’s up to us to put the civil servants back in their proper place. The Campaign for REAL MILK is the cutting edge of this ages-old controversy … repelling the tyrant who has usurped power BECAUSE WE LET HIM.
In BC, when I finally get before the Court of Appeal on the “pith and substance of it”, I’ll be showing them which way is ‘up’. That, in the British system of representational govt. the express policy of a Minister of the Crown, IS the policy of the government of the day. It outranks a mere “regulation” subordinate to a given Act. What happened to us here is a textbook case of how the petty bureaucrats, did an end-run around the elected representatives.
A man named Matthias Muschol (sp?) called me last spring and started filling me in on how the monopolies overseen by the poultry / egg marketing boards, have been effectively broken, in New Brunswick / Ontario. He was being very seriously bothered by the BC egg marketing board. At the same time, being given information (dirt) by a former Board member that the BC Egg marketing board had a legal opinion that it ( the pertinent Acts) would not withstand a constitutional challenge. The Competition Board of Canada was taking him very seriously. I was about to assist him to lay a private Information to do with what he’d suffered. Just a mere co-incidence Mr Muschol suddenly ‘exited this mortal coil’, in September? Myself, I think not.
Agreed. And hopefully if the gov’t actually tries to limit food sovereignty using this Act, someone will challenge it. But it’s alarming that they leave the door open for themselves to try to regulate private property to begin with. 🙁
Ken
The threat of losing quota is substantial if a farmer has to spend about 30,000 dollars per cow for the mere right to produce milk.
They will do everything in their power to protect the quota system. Consider Michael Schmitt, he was producing milk without a quota and is therefore considered a threat to the supply management system.
The intent of the act was to give the impression that dairy farmers were in control of the quota system, when in fact the system was controlling them.
Dairy Farmers of Ontario has become an elitist organization that cares little about the family farm. Past and current policy is a testimony to this fact. It is easier to control a small group of large farms then it is to control a large group of small family farms.
Ken
Just for your own information you should see if you can find out just how sick the people in your area are. How has the absentee rate been in the local schools and businesses? If you do this you should find that your customers are actually healthier than their neighbors which would mean your milk is preventing diarrhea not causing it.
Please dont say you are going to try and reason with a politician. That is not likely to work even if that politician is a relative. You must do your best to know and use the law to your favor, period.
2) I know ecoli hangs out in intestines. That does not help me determine how it can “hang out” in an udder. So I’ve done more research. This is the type of info I expect to see from RAWMI, btw. Here are some articles on coliforms, coliform mastitis, and coliform in the milking system that I have found:
A coliform mastitis control program. Btw, I did not know that coliforms can “hang out” in the udder. I thought they immediately caused elevated SCC and toxin release. This is not the case. In fact, lower SCC seems to be associated with increase in coliform in the udder. http://milkquality.wisc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/mastitis-control-program_coliform-mastitis.pdf
This video is very helpful. Two things to note: 1) ecoli in the udder does not elevate SCC and 2) it typically resolves quickly, in less than 30 days. So much for check SCC every week & sending test samples off ever 30 days, eh? So knowing this information, what is the best protocol to ensure that there is no ecoli from the udder going into the milk?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T29Jjh9mcgE
And yet another article talking about ecoli in the milking system. This must be where the idea to test the inline sock filter came from:
http://milkquality.wisc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Pantoja-reinemann-ruegg-j-dairy-sci-94-2680-factors-associated-coliform-count-bulk-milk.pdf
THIS is the sort of information I am asking for.
3) As Marcie (McBee) noted and Shawna mentioned to me in an email, these labs & vets are turning in raw milk farmers! Why on earth would I want to deal with them? They are raiding farms at gunpoint! So if there are any government trolls reading this, you’ve got a trust issue!
In addition, a woman in my FB group had a cow go down with what sounded to me like milk fever. She called the vet. The vet looked at the cow and diagnosed ecoli mastitis. The cow lost the quarter to gangrene and is recovering, thanks to the owner’s rapid response and attentive care. BUT the vet, a dairy vet, told the owner that ecoli mastitis is rare. This is counter to what the above video says. So how does one find a trustworthy, knowledgeable vet? Not to mention, all the vets around here are UT educated and go right along with the state when it comes to raw milk.
I don’t need to take a course in microbiology to understand it. I and many other tiny raw milk farmers research and share findings all the time. The differences between gram negative & gram positive bacteria are not difficult to comprehend if the information is made available and relevant as it is in the above videos.
4) I’m not sure why both you and Mark are saying this. Clearly, dairy farmers are going this route. Clearly, when set up properly, there is no risk. Clearly, if we are culturing pathogens on the farm, they are already there! Why, when testing through a commercial or state run lab is not an option due to government hostility, would we not test on the farm? The Wisconsin website I use as reference above has information on setting up on farm labs for the purpose of culturing mastitis pathogens for proper treatment. Clearly, it is a viable option!
5) I successfully fed hay year round to my milk cows for years before obtaining pasture to feed them on. I had none of the issues I’ve heard about from Foundation Farm. And it is my understanding that they were not feeding adequate roughage. I also understand that cows can be on pasture. If that pasture is continuously grazed to such a degree that there is no long forage left, you can have issues, particularly if cows are fed a lot of grain.
And the links I referenced in my original post contradict each other. One shows that grass fed animals are at lower risk for ecoli O157 than those fed grain (note that hay IS grass). One shows that it makes no difference. Many farmers are under the impression that if they do not feed a large amount of grain as many commercial dairies do, then ecoli o157 is not a risk. Is there someone here that can read the studies referenced and tell me what they think?
I’m an industrial engineer. I get written procedures. I get testing to monitor. This is standard industrial practice. But I also know that they are not fool proof and that they need to be modified as new information becomes available.
This seems to be a good clearing house for lessons learned as is the RAWMI site. And your Raw Milk Pro site is also a good place, Charlotte (and I do comment…..my name is Kristin). I would be happy to do what I can to write up and research, keeping in mind that I have 5 children and a small farm to run. I understand that we each have our passions when it comes to educating. What I do not have time for is blogging, putting up a website, etc. I’ve done that. I just cannot fit it into my life and raise my family. I can make phone calls while I stir cheese curds.
There is nothing wrong with trying to keep STEC Ecoli 0157H7 out of your test samples but don’t let your competitors convince you that you can prevent an illness without knowing the cause.
When you say I also know the numbers out their and yes their are sick people every were. and I will do everything I know to do to protect my owners… it sounds as though you don’t understand this most basic of points.
These illnesses were not caused by your milk and the so call experts you are talking to are not your friends. They are your competitors. There is no science or biology behind these attacks. Why would any sane person assume that a nations malnutrition problem would be caused by healthy food and not the processed junk food being consumed by it’s population.
Also, Mark has a web site at Organic Pastures (I don’t know the whole url) where you could probably locate his contact information, too.
Good luck.
Just follow D’s instructions to get David Gumpert’s email.
Also, our veterninarian is completely supportive of small farms and raw milk, and as such does a fantastic job answering my questions. And just yesterday I received a personal email regarding a question I asked to Dr. Cat Berge of RAWMI. Talk about a vet who understands and is supportive of raw milk production! She is so generous with her knowledge.
And finally, by far your largest risk for introducing illlness-causing pathogenic ecoli is by fecal contamination….not from the udder. Test for COLIFORMS in your milk. See you tests come back with ridiculously low counts. (or not, and then you know you need to re-work your plan.) I love milk test day here at our farm. Yes…it was a pain for figure out the logistics of making that happen, but it was so worth it.
Escherichia coli is the most diverse bacterial species and is also one of the most intensively studied and manipulated microorganisms. It is often referred to as a workhorse for biochemical and genetic studies, and for the large-scale production of recombinant sugar-modified proteins (glycoproteins), which allow for the production of cheaper and faster pharmaceutical drugs. Specially designed and genetically engineered proteins are commonly used as medications, because they bind to specific protein receptor sites, and can have therapeutic benefits.
These organisms are hardwired for survival, and they will, by hook or by crook, survive. My question to the scientific and medical community is this, who is in fact, in control?
Considering the psychological and social qualities that characterize humankind, I am not looking forward to this.
For the first time, scientists have fundamentally changed the genetic code of an organism, raising the possibility that researchers might be able to retool nature and create potent new forms of proteins to combat disease.
http://scitechdaily.com/scientists-create-organism-new-genetic-code/
Ken
Harmless strains of e coli are part of the normal flora of the gut, and can benefit their hosts by producing vitamin K2, and by preventing the establishment of pathogenic bacteria within the intestine.
Babies are born without any E. coli in their digestive tract but become inoculated with it during and following birth. Newborns born under sterile conditions or those who have been exposed to antibiotics can develop a form of vitamin K deficiency, called hemorrhagic disease. This disease involves spontaneous bleeding beneath the skin or elsewhere in the infant’s body, and occurs in about 1% of all infants.
Ken
Raw milk producers….especially those of you out there who are not licensed….milk testing is your friend. Your record of low, low coliform counts will go a long way to publicly demonstrate your good practices, should they ever be called into question, as well as demonstrate for yourself and your customers/share owners that you have a GOOD plan for production. If you are regularly producing milk that has 0 coliforms, or at least <10, the probability of your farm being the source of a patogenic ecoli outbreak is nearly zero!
Finding a lab that you can voluntarily work with, that is logistically close enough to receive your samples at temperature, and that you trust to do good work is one of the BEST THINGS you can do to ensure continued freedom to produce raw milk, and to protect yourself and your customers.
Raw milk folks...find a lab to test your milk. Can't find one? Sounds like a business opportunity for someone! Every community has labs. They may not yet be testing milk, but the technology for coliform testing is east to come by. It is time to pursue an innovative solution. Figure out how to have your milk tested. Really...just figure it out!
do not assume that press releases parroted by lazy journalists, are connected with the facts of the matter.
Mark McAffee says ‘you’re not really in biz. as a raw milk dairy, ’til you’ve been through a recall’. [ paraphrase] This too shall pass … when it does, you’ll still be there, serving your neighbours the best food in the world. You have to go through an experience like this in order to realize how deep is the malice against the Campaign for REAL MILK. Various people call this “war” … wherein the first casualty is Truth. As frantic-busy as you are in the midst of it, the antidote for worry is = more information …locate those who are purported to have been sickened, and talk to them face-to-face.
“The curse causless doth not come” If you belong to a church, your brothers & sisters in the Faith have the Christian duty to come along side you in this distress … asking God for understanding about it. Rely on the Promise that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth : get specific!
http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/contact-us.html can help in many ways, and give you a host of information and contact information. Having been down this road as a consumer/owner I suggest you organize with your owners and dig in for the fight ahead. As seen with the Hershberger case in Wisconsin, an active and committed membership is key to standing up to government overreach. There is a reason they sent squad cars to collect farm samples; intimidate you, test your resolve, attach your farm and raw milk to criminal activity in the media… In the clip I saw you did a great job with the media yourself, and you hit the nail on the head, this is about the freedom to choose – now your owners need to step up and defend thier rights.
Proximately, corporate totalitarians are controlling this toward the goal of total control of humanity.
But sometimes I wonder if it’s not most profoundly true that this is a microbial attack, with bacteria like E. coli, salmonella, etc. and viruses like CaMV, really “in control”, and using the hominids who perpetrate crimes like CAFOs, GMOs, SMOs, and glyphosate as their disease vector, like plague using fleas using rats.
Also, about consumer responsibility: Did these families prevent cross-contamination from other foods in their kitchens? Has anyone interviewed them about their at-home food-safety habits? Do they all have copies of “Safe Handling” by Peggy Beals, and if not, then why not? Did anyone from the Health Dept ask these questions?
(Raw milk advocates – Maybe it’s time for a press release of our own to counter the Health Dept one).
We did not see squad cars lined up at any urban grocery stores to collect Foster Farms contaminated chicken now did we?
As for consumer responsibility, cross contamination is a possibility that should be discussed in an open way. Years ago, when I was in a “milk group” I would pick up milk for 4 families; sometimes jars smelled, home cleaning chores can get messed up, so to protect our farmer and ourselves we decided that each individual was ultimately responsible for the sanitation of their own jars, and that as owners each person had the right to not fill others jars if they suspected anything wrong with the containers. It worked out very well, and added another layer of responsibility to support individual research. Yet another advantage of herd shares and private food clubs.
I wouldn’t say that at all. Both from a scientific and experience perspective. I’ve had raw milk from a conventional dairy that went putrid in 3 days just like the pasteurized junk in the store. Its all in how you make it.
Ken
It sounds like there is an E.coli 0157:H7 outbreak occurring in the area where you live. Children have become ill. In the midst of an outbreak investigation, public health has a daunting task of figuring out what the common source of exposure is. Based on the report that was posted Nov. 4th, which was Monday, it stated at 8 cases of illnesses involving children have been reported and the health department believed it was related to drinking the raw milk from your dairy. Of the 8, 3 have been identified with the matching fingerprint of E.coli 0157:H7that means it is coming from the same source. It is not clear from the way the report is written whether all 8 reported drinking raw milk, the 3 with the matching fingerprints, or a mix of the 8.
The rate of identified illnesses comes in at different time intervals. Some children are taken to their doctors and if the diarrhea doesnt clear up then a fecal test to identify the pathogen will be taken. It takes at least 3 days to grow and identify. If a child is taken to the emergency room a fecal sample may be taken immediately or they may be hydrated and sent back home. If the child continues to get worse, a repeat visit to the emergency room will happen and possible hospitalization if the child is severe. A fecal sample will be taken at this point and it will take another 3 days for the results. The point is the other five that were not identified when the report was written may or may not have the matching fingerprint of E.coli 0157:H7. There is no way for public health to know this information.
Also the way the report is written, it is unclear whether any of the children are in the hospital or whether any have developed HUS. I tend to think there are no cases of HUS, because that is typically the first thing reported due to the serious nature of the illness.
Also, when a food outbreak investigation is taking place, they dont hear raw milk and then stop asking questions. States have forms with a variety of questions: what have you eaten, have you been out of the country, at a petting zoo, swimming in a body of water? The reporting of what has been eaten is the most difficult part to document. Once a child has become ill at least a 3-5 days have passed. By the time public health gets involved, a few weeks probably have passed. It is not easy to remember everything you have eaten 2 weeks previously. This is where accurate reporting is so important when a child is taken to his/her own pediatrician or an emergency room. When Chris became ill all of these types of questions were asked in the emergency room. No one asked if he drank raw milk. My husband reported it.
If a common source is reported like raw milk or a local restaurant, it is easy for public to investigate immediately. That is what they did in this case. They are trying to prevent more illness taking place. There are no bad guys here; just people doing their jobs. If it had been a local restaurant that had been reported as the common source, their response would have been the same. They would have immediately gone to the restaurant, closed it for business (along with a public health warning), looked at their safety procedures, taken samples of the environment and food ,and wait for the results before the restaurant could open back up for business.
It would be helpful for all involved if public health would issue an update on the findings so far.
On another note, you have a huge herdshare program.
For example, how many of those who became ill had received prescription or over the counter medications or had been vaccinated in the last two months?
Focusing their investigation solely on exposure to a microbe is a cursory and unscientific approach for determining why these six individuals became ill. There were 792 people who did not become ill and you would think they would want to no why.
Ken
Here is the latest about the outbreak. 9 ill children and 3 with complications. It does not state that the 3 have HUS, but I don’t know what else complications would mean.
In April of 2012, a there was a raw milk herdshare outbreak. A two year old little girl suffered a stroke. She was left unable to speak, swallow or walk. A few months ago she had a kidney transplant. Her mother was the donor. Is raw milk really worth all of this?