Scott TrautmanIt’s been nearly a year since Scott Trautman lost his Wisconsin Grade A dairy license, depriving him of the opportunity to sell his dairy’s milk to processors for pasteurization.
He was the victim of a coordinated crackdown by dairy processors and Wisconsin’s Department of Agriculture, Trade, and Consumer Protection on dairies selling raw milk. In an effort to punish Trautman for his ongoing criticisms of the agency and its unbridled support of the conventional dairy industry, DATCP has rebuffed his efforts to recover his license. But Trautman has refused to be intimidated, and in this article, discusses his personal campaign to come up with a new brand of high-quality raw milk, backed by realistic standards. The campaign is in its early stages, and Trautman in this guest post invites comments, questions, and suggestions for where this campaign should go.
by Scott Trautman
In my ten years starting, running and, in 2004, selling a small Internet service company, I had faith that providing excellent service, and treating others as I wished to be treated, is the best policy, for business, and life. I came to realize that it takes real intelligence, real strength to do your business right and still be successful, far more than it does to cheat, cut corners, leave the world a worse place. I designed checks and balances in my Internet business to ensure good things would happen when I did good, and bad things happen when I did bad. I have tried to recreate those same types of systems now with my dairy business near Madison, and the brand I am pioneering, Wisconsin Fresh Milk.
My intention is to build the finest brand of dairy products anywhere. Not the largest. In fact, the first check and balance is to limit the brand to only true family farms completely capable of having the uniform pride across each member – the ownership interest – the benefit and the potential loss if done incorrectly. Eventually, there will be a collection of family farms, taking advantage of scale and uniform marketing, without giving in to the many negatives of large size.
Sounds great, but so much talk so far. Details are needed, and details you shall have.
By way of background, the Wisconsin Grade A standard does not suit the system I am trying to create one tiny bit. I can take you to Grade A farms that are disgusting, horrible, and completely inconsistent with the high-minded values I discussed at the outset. Which is how things are working out, because the corrupt masters of Grade A, the handful of so-called public servants that are part of Food Safety, refuse to allow me a license.
I was angry at first a year ago when the Wisconsin Department of Agriculture, Trade, and Consumer Protection took my Grade A license. But now I thank them for that, and for getting into my life and forcing me out to do all the work I have done. Had I not been outed, had I been given my license back, I wouldn’t be here now. And what I will do will be progress, a better future for more than just my farm.
Understand Grade A as a brand. This brand in Wisconsin is built up to be something worth having. Go looking, and you will find, as you do with many brands, those that eventually fail, wide variation as to what that brand is. Those that build the brand on one end, and those that erode the brand at the other.
The Grade A brand is built on rigid rules; many many of them, too, that in the system they are in, can be used in a positive way, toward producing safe food,, or, arbitrarily to punish even those that would be the very model of the brand, such as our farm. Would our state be a better place if all farms operated as we do on our 130-acre, 40-cow dairy? I believe if you saw it, you would resoundingly answer affirmatively. Yet, no license can I get. Thank you again, Food Safety, for making it so clear what I need to do, and what needs to be done to you.
Is the idea of inspection, rules, outside oversight a bad idea? If you are ruled by ego, then yes, it is a bad idea. One inspector can make your life miserable in such a situation. Rigid, outdated, often arbitrary rules, not applied for the public’s interest, which is safe dairy products.
I have designed a different kind of inspection system, and am presenting the highlights here as part of an ongoing process of public consideration. My success to date has been in taking good information from many and applying it to create situations that minimize risks, maximize returns, with checks and balances in each part, at critical junctures, to catch problems before they become problems. None of this is covered by “Grade A”.
The Wisconsin Fresh Milk brand will reflect a variety of values, like diversified and sustainable practicesl But for now I want to focus only on the inspection process, to help create safe dairy products, especially raw dairy products. Almost anyone can produce milk fit for pasteurization. Their pay for that milk reflects that skill.
I have listened to what the ‘enemies’ of raw milk have said, really listened, and I have heard. No, I do not believe that raw milk is like playing Russian roulette with your health. That is an arrogant irresponsible statement. Yet what I do hear, and will act upon, is the idea that raw dairy products do not have ‘the benefit’ – the check for unsafe practices – that pasteurized milk does. That means I need to be extra safe. I have also listened to the other end of the spectrum, that anything in the raw milk, even including pathogents, is good. Well, no, I don’t believe quite in that, either. As always, somewhere in the middle is as close to ‘truth’ as we’re going to get.
I have designed a holistic (whole-istic) system that encompasses everything that makes up a glass of raw milk. The main components are:
– Dairy systems: Milk harvest and distribution, including all the mechanical systems that touch milk, and their facilities. This is pretty much all that Grade A covers to an inferior standard. This includes testing.
– Animal Health: Healthy milk comes from healthy animals, and operators that keep healthy animals – and in addition recognizes sickness, and removes sick animals from the milk line, maximizing the probability of safe milk.
– Whole farm: Healthy animals come from healthy soils on well managed farms. This is the catch-all to ensure that even if the rest is done properly, that problems don’t crop up. For example, with excellent management, and a whole lot of drugs et al, animal health can be maintained – but one slip up and you have a huge problem. In a well managed system, forgiveness is built in—the key being strong immune systems–even if there is a slipup.
I have three inspectors to review each of these three operations, ask me questions, fill out a certain amount of paperwork, and provide me guidance as to how to improve what I am doing. Each serves as an extra set of eyes and a brain to make sure I am seeing everything the way it should be seen.
I have so far had one-and-a-half of these inspections; the other one-and-a-half will come in the next few weeks as time allows for all. Here is a recap on who is doing what.
Dairy systems inspection: Art Johnson, with 30 years experience in the dairy industry, as a field man, as someone involved in dairy plant operations. As one example, he inspected my pipeline and milk storage system. I have an inspection report. It includes sensible suggestions, most of which I will implement. He will be coming back to review our milking process; startup and shutdown, and the milking in between. This includes our testing procedure, our bottle filling procedure. At each point, what are the identified risks? How can we minimize them?
Animal Health: This is handled by my veterinarian. Vets are not comfortable one tiny bit being involved in raw milk, because of pressures from their profession. Makes me think the less for their profession. Rigid arrogant ignorant thinking. Too bad on that. But I have been fortunate enough to attract two flexible clear-thinking veterinarians. They have been out and have been able to fit what I want–herd health type examinations–into existing structures. They also reviewed our handling and milking process, as well as our recordkeeping system and, as I requested, we reviewed zoonotic diseases and their transmission, and what could be done about them. I think I have gotten these professionals to think a little about accepting this ridiculous idea that any cow anywhere under any circumstances can be a zoonotic disease carrier, to the degree that no one ought drink raw milk. Yes, that is altogether too convenient; lazy, really. Go asking for the studies. You won’t find them. Yet all opposed to raw milk believes they exist. Ignorance from supposed professionals. A system rife with them.
Importantly to the point, we reviewed our observation and decision-making process, for identifying potentially sick animals, and where we draw the line to keep their milk out of the system. As with so many of these types of things, I learned something new, and already have plans to implement suggestions to improve our overall system.
Whole Farm: Gary Zimmer is a well respected author and leader in agriculture, and especially in dairy. It is Gary’s ideas of soil health that have brought our farm to the wonderful position of abundance and health that currently exists, via the Albrecht school of thought on soil fertility and the resultant animal – and then human health. His MBA – Mineralized, Balanced Agriculture – is geared toward answering two questions.
1. What are you doing for the health of your soil?
2. And What are you doing for the health of your animals?
If you respond arrogantly – say, with a two word response like, “I Graze” – for each of them – you fail. If you respond in a well thought through manner that reflects all the same kinds of checks and balances you’d have in any good system, you pass. And there can be more than one way to achieve the goal, which is a fantastic way to go about creating a system. A vulnerability recognized here, a check and balance there, adding up to well thought through and safe system.
The Food Safety division of DATCP is out of control–arrogant, ignorant, bullying, and sick. Time will be required for legislators and justice authorities to catch up with the agency’s malfeasance. In the meantime, I will show my dedication to safety and improvement, most especially for those that will defend us against this evil. This is an extraordinary time requiring extraordinary people to show their meddle. I hope that my efforts, beyond our farm, will help bring about a New Golden Age of Dairy in Wisconsin. A time of peace, prosperity and health for Wisconsin’s proud family farmers.
Despite the very best efforts of the State of Wisconsin, I continue to be Proud Wisconsin Dairyman, Scott Trautman.?
Do you really want a set of standards for raw milk production?
They've already been written, and the government will be more than happy to help you implement them.
"In 1996, over the objections of the FDA personnel representing the U.S., the Codex Committee on Milk and Milk Products (CCMMP) approved seven dairy standards, none of which requires pasteurization."
http://www.cspinet.org/reports/codex.htm
And before I get attacked for posting this here, please consider that David Gumpert and the FTCLDF do not tell you everything that's going on in the food safety world. Many, many other people are talking about this, and have been for a while now, but it falls on deaf ears here for some reason. Please go out and see what others have researched, and decide for yourselves what is happening.
Raw milk production standards have already been written through Codex, they just haven't been widely announced yet. Be careful what you wish for. If you ask the government to 'work with you' on raw milk production standards, I'm sure they'll be happy to oblige.
Its looking like I won't be able to make it back to Wisconsin to grill DATCP Food Safety at the farmstead dairy food safety forum next week. Oh well… there will be more opportunities.
Lola-
I will check out the link you provided, but I don't think anywhere here Scott is suggesting working with the government. What he is suggesting is creating our own standards using a more wholistic approach than the government's.
http://www.wiseye.org/wisEye_programming/ARCHIVES-agencies_09.html
Meeting is the third and fourth item down.
And without working with the government, or overthrowing it, you will still not be able to sell raw milk, no matter what standards you create for yourself.
I don't believe that yet another organization can come in and avoid the pitfalls that all other farm organizations have fallen into. National Farmers Organization, Farm Bureau, R-Calf, et al, were all founded on the idea of helping the farmer achieve a better place in the market, and all have capitulated to the government against the principles on which they were founded. Are you telling me that this organization will be any different? Remember that it was Organic Valley – a family of farms! – that made a stink to DATCP about raw milk in Wisconsin in the first place (John D. Rockefeller said it: competition is a sin). Weren't they created to "help the family farmer"?
If this association manifests, with a codified list of accepted practices, in due time the association will find that they have no choice but to work with the government, and in sweeps Codex and their Good Agricultural Practices. And you already laid the foundation for them and got everyone else on board, too.
The idea of recommended farming practices for raw milk production, as an educational organization only (but not regulatory), is great (but isn't that what FTCLDF is doing?) The idea that I have to BELONG to someone else's policies and politics to create "market presence" is absurd. Why advocate that people get to know their farmer if some semi-anonymous label will guarantee quality? That's what all of the other big national ag associations have done. I understand that Scott Trautman has good intentions, but if Scott or anyone else doesn't like the bullies at DATCP, maybe you need to try a new strategy. I have tried, unsucessfully, for a year to explain a new strategy, but again, deaf ears.
Barney Google (on the previous article) was right; there is a lot of ass kissing around here.
Would you elaborate please?
Thanks
What do you not understand?
= I always like to ask at the end of a conspiracy/whine/the world sucks jag, so, what are you DOING about it. As in not typing in a nice safe chair, but DOING. New worlds are built by people DOING and old worlds are maintained by talking.
= everything as a business? No. I completely agree with Mark & others & like the FFA model. The smaller you are, the less need to pay attention to you. But that is in the future – and we have to get to that better future through extra effort – to be safe – NOW.
= I think you might be surprised what can happen if you DO something like I am, rather than simply whining all the time. Those that have influence to make changes will not be let down by my efforts – but they would those that would assume everyone is going to do a great job if left to their own devices.
= As far as large coops, I agree completely. OV is now about the employees and largest producers for OV. In humility and as a check and balance of my or other's arrogance, I would only allow regional cooperatives, that gain service from a national cooperative. If you see the problem, you address it before it becomes a problem. I have no desire to create or be a part of an OV-type of organization. OV ought to be a handful or better of smaller cooperatives "working together" (and not like the CWT). Idea good, practice compromised.
Keep whining folks – see where that takes you. You'll be whining here there everywhere forever, and wonder why nothing is changing. Here's to all those that shut their traps and DO and DO beyond themselves. I particularly admire Michael Schmidt: His victories are from his intelligence, but also from his high standards. Without his high standards, I doubt all the intelligence and wit in the world would have helped him. I also admire Mark's great system, and him publishing his RAMP. Which I eagerly devour and implement (well, with our own situation).
Pulse check people – what percent of all this chatter is about rights – and how much about responsibility – as in YOUR responsibility, not someone somewhere else's – And ask the question – if each of us spent less time screaming about our rights – but in working on our responsibilities – would we really need to be screaming about our rights all the time? Up off your asses and look for solutions – for YOU, not someone somewhere else that will never happen —
As to the issue of co-ops, are their any that have been successful AND stayed true to their founding members and founding intentions without being harmful to their fellow producers? Or is the model fundamentally flawed and this process of distancing oneself from ones customers a root cause of such problems?
Scott, it sounds very much like you are leaning toward the larger model. My goals are exceptionally modest, and while I agree with your ideas in theory – from a practical standpoint it concerns me as too expensive and cumbersome for the operation that would fit my lifestyle.
My goal is modest -to be a peasant farmer. I want to provide for my family, and be able to sell or barter the small surpluses that we produce – which has been an honorable and satisfying lifestyle through the ages.
My personality calls me to farming – and the business parts are the antithesis of my nature.
If the milk from my farm were to have any claim to fame, it would be that it has no brand.
I do not need the boot of an inspector on my farm because the customer is the inspector.
It is my understanding that free-markets are supposed to ENCOURAGE growth through incentives for better gains. The flip side of that was an individuals choice to decline. We were supposed to be able to decide for ourselves what level of "success" is satisfying. One should be free to be as small or as large as one desires.
I worked my a$$ off and acquired my dream – my beautiful farm is bought and paid for. I'm happy to work it without a grand income – I can't support yet another system that sets the bar too high.
But it is mine, and I feel a GREAT responsibility – to all those that want to drink raw milk – and farmers that want to provide it – the 'lassaize faire' thing has been shown not to work – but more important – is not realistic in the here and NOW. All theory and ideal and assumptions are so much wasted effort – and to my point – THIS I can DO NOW – in respect and service to ALL – the pattern you will see is a whole bunch of folks that will NOT change the world – want whatever they dream up for themselves is just fine. See, you have to offer the exact same thing to EVERYONE – the worst dairyman you ever saw – the greediest fool – the reality is we need extraordinary people for extraordinary work. Not dumbed down whatever – that aint goin' anywhere – history is absolutely filled with those screaming for their rights – and doing NOTHING for anyone else.
I am WILLING to bear this burden because I CARE – even as it inconveniences ME –
Do you honestly think FDA et al are quaking in their boots on all this really clever insightful…talk? Really? They would fear the Michael Schmidt's – the Mark McAfee's – because they are out there WORKING – DOING beyond themselves.
If we were to talk about what YOU are DOING – before all of everyone's clever insights – for what audience other than themselves I wonder – it would sure get quiet in here, wouldn't it?
This post will fade in a few days – and back to the usual bitchfest and aren't I cleverland, and NOTHING WILL CHANGE no matter how clever or long you bitch –
Like other 'movements' in time – I look to history and evaluating why what worked worked, and why what failed failed, and doing the best not to create the situations for failure, while encouraging the features that do work. That's why we is human…and capable of adaptation and growth…if we don't give into our selfishness and pettiness and vanity AND PERFECTION. DO something rather than talk about a big NOTHING that will NEVER happen. No credit given for TALK – only ACTION
So your great idea didn't create the splash you obviously expected – guess what – you're not the first one that's happened to.
It sounds like you're ranting just because your nose is out of joint – why don't YOU try to take your own advice – the "doing" that should be going on here is listening. You presented your ideas and the feedback isn't what you want so you attack people and call them whiners?
You idea does not work for me. Somehow you've construed that into your opinion more important and worthy than those around you.
I'll take action when I support the mission. Sorry General, but you failed to rally your troops before you yelled "charge".
And despite how 'angry' some would need to believe I am – I already have the perfect revenge against those idiots up at DATCP Food Safety – I am happy, healthy, helping people – and making our living by farm income alone – even despite our dairy being shut down. You think all this talk here hurts them or anyone else? Nope.
I would trade every last one of you wags that have time to talk all day everyday for just one more Michael Schmidt – we'd get this boat moving.
My hope is that producers and consumers will become closer.In fact, hopefully as much as possible, they will become co producers of the food they consume.Life should not be compartmentalized into a bunch of businesses.Our job as farmers is to reconnect people to the land.We do NOT want to create ways to make that separation more convenient.
Michael Schmidt's case was decided on the difference between private and public(commercial) activity.Michael said that the struggle should not be about our right to make a profit from food(this is what a business is about),it should be about people's access to the food they choose.
NOT DOING can be as important as doing.A lot of things that we do ,turn out,in the long run,to be unnecessary at best ,and destructive at worst.
By choosing to be a business,you must realize that you are bound by those rules made by the creator of the world of commerce, the bankers.Commerce is their game,in it you must play the role of their property.Most of the world's peoples make a living and still remain outside of commerce.
Considering you asked David Gumpert to post this article for you, with full knowledge of who comments here and that your article and ideas would receive input and criticism, I find your defensive nature here disgusting and insulting.
Thank you for revealing who and what you really are.
"I am WILLING to bear this burden because I CARE – even as it inconveniences ME -"
Haven't we heard this diatribe before? What organization, from government on down, hasn't been founded on the principle of "I care for you, and I'm doing this for you"? I don't want you to do for me. I don't like you or your policies or politics, and like hell you are doing to dictate the terms on which I can or cannot sell my milk.
How long have you been farming, Scott? So you read a couple of books, hooked up with McAfee and Schmidt and Zimmer and FTCLDF and think you're an expert now?
If you want to create some grandiose "raw milk brand" for the entire nation, it won't happen. Please explain how this will manifest without having to work with DATCP and the FDA.
And as far as your asinine assumption that none of us are doing anything…just because we don't get attention on internet blogs for chaining ourselves to the governor's mansion on Christmas Eve when the press was home for the holidays does not mean we are not doing anything. Smy Opin and I share the same views of farming. My family wants to stay small, grow our own food with enough left over to sell or barter, and most importantly, STAY INDEPENDENT of yet another "I'm here to help" entity like you're proposing. We're diversifying, getting independent, making connections, getting to know people, talking healthy foods, and making change in our own communities. That's not doing anything important? That's what the whole local foods movement is based on!
Really, Scott, besides getting some PR for your fight with DATCP, and writing a few blogs and articles, what have you done? Wow, is it the same thing that we've done? Think about that before you criticize us again.
Secondly, Scott brought up personal responsibility, and this is a valid point. I think too many people have put faith in government or others to make decisions for them, and that is very scary. We are becoming a society that can't think critically anymore and puts blind faith in the government. We are almost completely detached from our food source, a real travesty in my opinion. I'm with miguel – I hope consumers and producers can come together. I have a lot of respect for the farmers that feed my family and I am happy to know them. I think I am taking responsibility for trying to effect change, though I am just one person. That doesn't mean I can't complain about the system when I am trying to educate others on what I think is wrong.
two"
Scott-
The world will be changed by a small group of regulators when they succeed at preventing folks from milking a cow or two – if we let them.
The folks who are fighting it – in the name of the "rights" that you so carelessly disregard – are making a big difference.
Please continue proving my point….fascinating
You could call your creation "Ego".
Smaller is better when it comes to raw milk…and trying to create coops, broad reaching standards, and other things that focus on profitability…rather than the herd and the milk…. do little to create a bright future for raw milk.
I can guarantee you that despite all the fancy words on MM RAMP plan…the cows on a 30 cow dairy would be happier than sharing their pastures with hundreds of other cows.
Creating an environment where farmers could make a living milking fewer cows should be the goal of this movement…but alas those that have the biggest mouths, and crave the most attention, are bent on the ultra commercialization of the pure white stuff.
With his attitude…I damn sure wouldn't be inclined to join any endeavor Scott was proffering. And the small farmer, who milks 'just a few cows' is the backbone of this movement…despite what the 'stars' think!.
Mr. Trautman, in my opinion, has been incredibly rude, and rather than garnering support has created hostility. His business model is beneficial to himself, and while there might be a place for it, it does not mean there is not a place for the small farmer who does not share his goal.
To Mr. Trautman: Sir, you really owe these people an apology. They are allowed to have a different worldview than do you, as well as different goals and opinions from you. Simply because they do not share your goals or agree with your opinions, it does not mean they are whiners, do-nothings, lazy, or any other insulting labels you'd like to paste on them.
When you start your brand, please post the name of it: I'll be sure to avoid it because I do not want to support a blustering, self-important man who seems to suffer delusions of grandeur.
Isn't this more interesting that the usual? I can only hear the same old crap so many times. Come on world changers, name me Famous Whiners From History. Oh, right, to make history, you have to DO something. Or did I say that before? What was it again that each of you were doing?
Please continue, we are definitely separating the wheat from the chaff here….I'm sure Marti has more to say than she already has….
"In my ten years starting, running and, in 2004, selling a small Internet service company, I had faith that providing excellent service, and treating others as I wished to be treated, is the best policy, for business, and life."
From your responses here, Mr. Trautman, you seem to have forgotten part of your guiding principles: treating others as you wish to be treated.
Unless, of course, you really wanted to be treated with disdain, hostility, and derision, since that is how you have treated people who started out by trying to have a conversation.
Since you are a farmer, you should have a better understanding of the old saying about reaping what you sow.
While there is room in their model for your business to exist, your model actually makes their model more difficult. Further, having just a couple of vets whom you have won over does not gain you any real support: you will have to face the argument that they have a vested interest in supporting your view since they diverge from the rest of a very large group. An example of this is the ongoing debate over climate change: each side tries to claim the high ground based on scientific studies, and each side dismisses the science of the other side.
As far as the vets go – you start from the beginning. One, two. I have had my time wasted by all nine ways of home-run hitters that strike out every time. Yet, to talk to them, well, they sound like some of the people here. Like they've done something. And I do sign my own name, now don't I?
And let's see a little more of what I have "done", even though funny, we just aren't hearing much more than your insults for me now are we, certainly no contemplation either.
I am proudly certified organic – 5 years running – straight out of the blocks. And the pinnacle of organic difficulty – organic dairy for 3 years now. Most of your "rights" people couldn't dairy much grow turnips organically is my guess – it takes discipline – and I welcome the scrutiny and the high bar to have to go over. And – let's see, SCC of 160-180-200, with about 2 cows to cull to bring that below 150. SPC usually under 3, always under 10, and beautiful tasty milk that lasts a full 2 weeks for most people. See? More do, let's see how you rip down organic, and everything else, but won't even once tell us what YOU DO, will we? Boy are you a world changer….I'm the bad guy…goin' nowhere, right?
Insult away, I am really REALLY hurting now…wheat from the chaff…..
I'm really glad to see that you invited all of your Facebook friends, family and CUSTOMERS to read your article here on The Complete Patient.
Hope they stick around to read the comments, too.
Then they'll see the man they're really dealing with.
But the big question is this, can you get along with your raw milk colleagues who have a different approach than you or will you use your success to push government standards for raw milk that will push out of business the farmers who choose to start or remain small or cannot afford to start big with all the infrastructure?
Rights does mean something. There has to be room for the small cap farm with a couple of cows. But governments can and have in the past used required membership in or adherence to standards developed by organizations like this. Its not about safety, its about protectionism.
I have spent my life being responsible for literally billions of dollars worth of government property, and for peoples lives; and I raised one very incredible human being with the help of my friends and family. I have changed the world, but in ways that are meaningful to me, which is one of the points the responders have been trying to make. I seriously doubt that what I've done makes any difference to your life, so I assume it would not measure up to your standard of having "done" anything. Yet, I am at least as proud of my contribution to the world as you are of yours, and the same can be applied to everyone who has posted here.
You have no idea what these people have struggled with in their lives, what they started with, or how hard they have worked to achieve their goals, yet you feel proud of yourself for slandering and insulting them? Seriously, you should apologize and hope you haven't damaged your own reputation beyond repair, because as much as you seem to believe these people are do-nothing nobodies, I guarantee you that they are not and that your treatment of them will come back to haunt you.
Scott's plan is to get decently priced, high quality raw milk out to as many people as possible. That is not a small proposition, and certainly takes a lot of dedication and work.
If you are OK with DATCP and FDA the way they are, you can keep complaining about them and how they are crushing the family farm. Or you can do something about it. The things Scott has done on his farm are pretty incredible. It makes me sad that I can no longer get his milk and meat, but I am learning as much as I can at Snowville Creamery, and working to change the world where I am at.
There are certainly valid points that have been made by some of Scott's critics, but fundamentally I think Scott is right. He is envisioning and creating a world beyond the narrow minded agri-business bureaucrats at DATCP, FDA, OV, etc…
Bill, Trautman's been very insulting to a lot of people here. Why are you making excuses for him? That he's "kind of a loud mouth" is no excuse for bad behavior.
I will admit, Scott is a dear friend on mine, so I may be biased. This isn't ass kissing. Anyone who knows me knows that I don't pull punches. I lost a cushy job as the head cheese monger and cheese buyer at a high-end retail store on Madison's capital square, because I upset too many people in the dairy industry over my harsh public criticisms of the WI dairy industry and DATCP.
I value Scott because I have been so impressed with how he has taken a depleted, run-down old conventional dairy farm and turned it into a thriving diversified fertile organic family farm in the course of a few years. That is an impressive feat.
Clearly there is a difference of opinion as to which way to move forward on the raw milk issue. I don't think there's a need to work against one another, but it may be helpful to define what our differences are. Some people just want to be left alone, and others want to be more proactive.
Personally, I think the idea that we can just be left alone is unrealistic. The world and society act on us — whether we want to believe it or not; whether we want it to or not. Its best to proactive rather than reactive. We are all actors in this game. Democracy is not a spectator sport, as much as the politicians and corporate news media want us to believe.
What I see in parts of the raw milk movement, like I see on the regulatory side of things, is a lot reaction. Very little being proactive.
I want to be proactive. If you want to continue being reactive, that is your choice. Just don't complain to me about DATCP taking away your rights if you refuse to take any on any of the responsibility for those rights.
I think some people need to read a little Frederick Douglass, on the history of liberty:
http://www.blackpast.org/?q=1857-frederick-douglass-if-there-no-struggle-there-no-progress
"The whole history of the progress of human liberty shows that all concessions yet made to her august claims have been born of earnest struggle. The conflict has been exciting, agitating, all-absorbing, and for the time being, putting all other tumults to silence. It must do this or it does nothing. If there is no struggle there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom and yet deprecate agitation are men who want crops without plowing up the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters."
I do want to be left alone to care for the cows and to get good food out to the people who support the farm with their energy.But I realize that this is not likely so when we get hassled ,I want to be completely within the law so that I can explain simply why the regulations do not apply to what we are doing.The only way I see that this is possible is to be completely non commercial in everything we do.This in no way limits the number of people that can be involved.Being non commercial is not about size.It is about our goals as a group.We all want good food so we each do whatever we can to keep it coming.Everyone involved is taking a lot of responsibility in the way that they can.
We should be trying to understand each others point of view .What do you mean by proactive?
It was big of you to step up for Mr. Truatman, yet it does not relinquish him from his responsibility to accept that he has responded inappropriately. This is a forum of people who are not necessarily his friends or family, and social decorum should be observed.
In response to your last post, perhaps you too should study some history: every activist or leader made it into the history books because there were thousands of invisible people supporting the main actors. The ones who are in the history books would not be there were it not for the support of the people who did what they could, how they could. And sometimes that was by doing, literally, nothing. Sit down strikes, or boycotts, for example. Every great general has had an army of "nobodies" — the soldiers who may not have had a chance to fire a single round, but still contributed to the ranks, as well as those who provided logistical support, or even those who simply kept moral up. People do what they can, how they can do it.
Your friend seems to have decided that anyone who is not in his personal battalian is not supporting the "right" side.
Do you honestly believe that Scott posted this expecting that everyone would agree with him, or should he have expected some criticism? Does getting some criticism justify calling everyone here who disagreed with him nasty names? If you reread the posts, he came out swinging at the first sight of opposition.
I don't want to hear that someone who has come up with yet another idea for regulatory oversight is 'doing something', while the rest of us are just sitting on the sidelines. I think that has been explained pretty succinctly here that we are all making the contribution we can, in our own ways. Bill, you even admitted that you are "working to change the world where I am at". Why is it good enough for you and Scott, but not good enough for us?
"If you want to continue being reactive, that is your choice. Just don't complain to me about DATCP taking away your rights if you refuse to take any on any of the responsibility for those rights."
Okay, so let's give Scott the benefit of the doubt. I've asked Scott this, and he has yet to respond to it, so I'll ask again. Bill, feel free to answer this for Scott if you'd like:
How will you have a raw milk association that DOES NOT have to work with FDA/USDA/state depts. of agriculture/state legislatures? No matter how good your proposal is, no matter how great your standards are, the government still has the final say in whether or not you can sell your milk. And, look at organics. Some success and popularity, and the government takes it over; now it's riddled with corporate interests. I asked, how do you avoid these pitfalls? Scott did not come back with an intelligent, well-thought out reply, he came back with insults. That tells me that he hasn't thought this out very well.
And, as an addendum, this is a pet-peeve of mine, Bill. We here in the U.S. do not have a democracy; we have a Constitutional Republic. A democracy is mob rule, where the will of the majority can trample the rights of the minority. I would have expected a man so well read in political philosophy would know that.
I support my local farmers at least every other weekend or every weekend-depending on my needs and what has grown in my garden, I also support the raw dairy farmer…AND I speak quietly to those who wish to listen about what I know about the toxic phoods our govt promotes and what I believe to be a healthier form of nutrition.
I don't feel I need to shout, or call names (I try not to lower myself-can't always prevent it), There are many on all sides that are a tad grandiose, like stating," playing roulette with raw milk", etc… People support what they believe in in their own ways, expecting everyone to react the same is not realistic. What works for one may not work for another.
Like many, I don't need, nor do I want anyone telling me what I should and should not eat. If you have information, then share it, I will either research what you say or I will choose not to accept it. It is MY choice not anyone elses.
Folks who buy raw milk in spite of official "russian roulette" dogma.
Folks who are delivering to neighbors who can't get to farms.
Folks who are forming herd shares and coops and supporting the FTCLDF through membership.
Folks who write letters to politicians and show up for public meetings.
Folks who keep up with the issues and pass the info on to friends and family.
Folks who are battling regulatory zealouts on farms large and small.
Folks who are sticking together, supporting one another, and hearing the concerns
of everyone involved….
and more….
Democracy is only mob rule if you structure it to be that way. It is possible to create democratic structures which respect the rights of all. It seems, unfortunately, that is something which Americans are not very good at in our current day and age. I do agree that there are many silent actors supporting the history makers.
I don't have an answer that is going to satisfy you, Lola. What I will say is that we need to render DATCP and FDA irrelevant. We don't need to be coercive and authoritarian like they are. We just need to be on our game, and we need to take food safety seriously.
Indeed, there were a few offensive remarks (or perhaps offensive is the wrong word; perhaps near-sighted?)…
"Well duh….the world isn't going to be changed or helped by a few folks milking a cow or two"
Oh, sorry, I guess I'm on the wrong planet. And the laws in the state of Oregon don't matter at all to those who purchase their milk quite legally from farms with 2 lactating girls – as per state law.
Milk Farmer, miguel, lola granola, et al… your opinions have been greatly valued and echoed in my mind.
I disagree, Bill, What Scott is suggesting is just a new type of bureaucracy. I don't want or need a champion for inspections.
I'm focused on INDIVIDUAL choice, freedom, and responsibility.
Isn't this more interesting that the usual? I can only hear the same old crap so many times. Come on world changers, name me Famous Whiners From History. Oh, right, to make history, you have to DO something. Or did I say that before? What was it again that each of you were doing?"
Scott not only are you rude and insensitive…you are obviously a jerk too…what a way to represent raw milk. You need to be marginalized….because even if you are the best dairyman in the world…you obviously aren't the person to be one of the high profile faces of the movement.
May you indeed reap what you have sown here….
I am totally aware that the ruling elite trample the rights of the people. I was merely pointing out to you that this country is not a 'democracy' as you keep saying it is, but rather is (supposed to be) a Constitutional Republic. I've found in my travels that very few know the difference and use the terms interchangeably.
Now, if you want an explanation as to why the ruling elite trample over our rights, I've explained in past postings that our government is no longer a Constitutional Republic as such, but rather is a privately owned corporation which has been bankrupt since 1933 and sells your labor (birth certificate) on the market as collateral on the national debt. 'Elected officials', bureaucrats, etc., do not work for the people, but rather for this private corporation. It's a matter of public record – http://www.manta.com. Under this system, they have no responsibility to uphold the Constitution. It's not that our Constitutional Republic has failed us, but rather that certain individuals long ago sold us out to the international bankers/corporate cartel for money, fame, and power.
"Democracy is only mob rule if you structure it to be that way. It is possible to create democratic structures which respect the rights of all."
Democracy by definition is the wants, needs or desires of 51 people out of 100, despite of the wants, needs or desires of the other 49. How do you structure it another way?
Could you name one successful democracy? I can't think of any.
I do think that raw milk advocates need to be willing to be challenged about our notions. We need to be open to the possibility that everything we THINK we know could be wrong. It is important to listen to our opponents in the regulatory world, because they may have insights we do not. I guarantee you that they are listening to us, even if not as attentively as they could.
Usually the truth lies in some grey area. One good example I can think of is the false dichotomy between Germ Theory and Terrain Theory. In reality, the germ is part of the terrain, and the germ can alter its terrain. It is a very complex system which we can never fully understand.
Humans and our societies are very complex systems too. It is the same as the false dichotomy between the free-market system and state socialism. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. IMO, we are going to be the most free if we can build state-less socialism from the grassroots up — Fraternity and equality without coercion. This doesn't mean eliminating the market, it simply means keeping the market to its proper role and not allowing the market to dictate the structure of our social institutions, as is the case today.
Our current system of corporate-state capitalism creates gross inequality and much coercion and authoritarianism. How do we go about creating equality without falling into the same trap of militarism and corporatism as those who currently rule our society?
I commend everyone here for their efforts, however small, towards building a more just and free society. We may not always agree about the means to go about it (as this thread so vividly illustrates) but we all seem to agree that there is something terribly wrong with the current trajectory of affairs.
I never suggested the U.S. was a democracy, because it definitely is not. I would agree with you that the U.S. is a corporatist state owned and controlled by banking interests. Thomas Jefferson warned about this very problem in the early 1800's, so it is nothing unique to post-1933 America.
Lola, I'd pose an even more far-reaching question than you have:
Can you name one successful civilization?
I can't think of any. Doesn't matter whether it calls itself a democracy, a republic, a monarchy, a plutocracy, oligarchy, dictatorship. Civilization as we know it is a system of boom and bust, artificial population explosions followed by collapse. This has been the pattern for the past 10,000 years since homo sapiens left the gatherer-hunter lifestyle and entered into sedentary annual agriculture to accumulate surplus value and build complex civilizations complete with standing armies, bureaucracies, sexism, racism, etc…
What is to be done? I don't have all the answers, but I would propose permaculture as a major solution.
As it stands, the rules are being manipulated through the supposed "safety" of a consumable, yet other foods are not held to the same standards or rules. This puts an excessive burden on those who supply the milk products, so it is fair to insist that all foods that are consumed raw, including seafood and vegetables, both foreign and domestic, be held to the same testing and handling requirements as raw milk, or that all rules be relaxed to the same standard. I have been seriously sickened by both oysters (cooked) and raw (imported) tomatoes, and it remains my choice whether or not I will purchase and eat them again, yet the government has taken away my right to decide whether or not I wish to consume raw milk.
Because they don't have consistent rules, the government can be challenged on this point, and it is very very unlikely that they will apply the same high requirements to all raw foods. It would simply be too expensive, and would bring all food distribution to a grinding halt. It would also get consumers more involved than we currently are: I love my farmer's market, and I would also raise hell over even more expensive veggies and fruits at the supermarket, or I would just be unable to purchase them. As more people are affected, it would eventually affect the profits of big business as their produce rots on the shelf. Therefore they have a stake in keeping the rules more minimal.
LIke I said, though, I'm not an expert, and I could be way off base.
"what's your brand name so I can boycott it". Uhh, also proving my point, it's in the post like 3 times, since it's not your usual conspiracy nut stuff, guess it's not all that interesting, and, boy, since my point is you do nothing, all talk, that's quite some threat, eh? I'm sure you have a big following in the what – "I'd like some a little cheaper" crowd? They won't be interested anyway.
How many of the whiners here I wonder – aren't even members of FTCLDF? <insert righteous reason why not here>. I think we're beginning to see who does what here. I don't give a crap who thinks what of me when it's the peanut gallery – all you got are opinions and conspiracies and whining about your rights. Sorry folks, no positive change coming out of that. Just talk talk talk.
Others have noticed that too – people I talk with, respect, that I do not share the same opinions about things. They can get people in a room to talk – opinions – but then when it's time to do something, funny thing is, this group here's nose is out of joint because their little passion isn't perfected, and this group here – well – they're awful busy with their important little lives. And all under the delusion that they are doing something to help – those rapier wits of theirs are really changing minds.
Sorry folks, but no. Not changing anyone's mind about anything. Just wasting a whole bunch of time and making you look like a bunch of idiots. The doers – well – some of them I suspect have gotten a chuckle out of what I've done here, but it's not their 'role' to say so.
Real solutions to our issue is going to come from listening – to the Bill Marler's – Lyyke's – but no, you run them off, and have your own little like minded tea party here. Wow, that is really breaking new ground, really going somewhere.
You just don't get it – aren't now and aren't about to – some of us will have to work harder in the now – to have the 'rules' eased off in the future. And if we do a great job policing ourselves – we won't need government to do it. There are examples of this. DATCP/FDA et al are antagonistic relationships – my relationship to my organic certifier is not. They are there to help.
What I suggested is but one brand. There is room for many; but each ought challenge themselves to provide quality, safe raw dairy. There is, as I've said, different ways to accomplish that, and the market will indeed decide.
I believe what I have described as my brand – will attract a lot of new people – that desire to be comfortable with raw milk. Some of those same people will become 'sophisticated' and make other choices that better match their new view on things.
My attempt is to as clearly and completely as possible describe everything involved in my milk. You talk about the consumer and farmer getting together. Okay, that is excellent, yet, the consumer is unsophisticated. I have heard consumers talked into the idea that milk that lasts only 5 days is just fine. And no real idea of why that milk only lasts 5 days, either. That's not good. As close to perfect information.
All this screaming about rights – and how many voices of 'we can do more' – we can innovate – we can win this thing by doing a great job.
The wheat from the chaff. The screamers, the whiners, the talkers and the doers. Who's making bets on who changes what?
There are thoughtful people here I respect. There are people that are sincere in working beyond themselves – willing to sacrifice for people they don't even know, and then, there are the whiners.
You pick your leaders – loudest whiner – or the one with the most rational plan for 2010 – today – that's going to get us to the situation we all say – say – we want. The government off our backs. I say it will require sacrifice. You say more whining. The whining is the easiest, you can do that from your seat in your home.
And here I thought they "ran off" because they couldn't sway any to their views. If they can't take the heat….
"each ought challenge themselves to provide quality, safe raw dairy. "
Isn't that what the majority of raw dairy farmers are striving to achieve?
Calling posters names is no different than the negative and derogatory words/name calling from lyyke, marler, the govt….That behavior only serves to shut people out from what you want to say, they won't listen.. Should I tell people that they are fools, idiots if they consume fast foods/processed/gmo, poisons, etc? and God forbid should they feed that crap to their kids they should be horse whipped and tossed into jail for child endangerment! You appear to be standing in judgment of those you don't know.
My original postings pointed out some of the caveats of such a national organization. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt. Could you address these questions, please?
1. Do you expect that your national organization will work with the government or not, at least from it's inception? (FDA/USDA/state depts. of agriculture, state legislatures.) If so, how do you plan to avoid capitulating to government control and regulation?; If not, how do you expect your members to sell their raw milk in states where it's illegal?
2. "And if we do a great job policing ourselves – we won't need government to do it" – how do you expect this to come about? Is your organization a legal/lobbying organization, too? I don't know is not an answer. If you have a solid business plan in your head you should be able to answer that question.
3. How do you plan on avoiding the pitfalls of other national farm organizations who have sold out their founding ideals to 'greater cooperation' with the government and within the farming community? NFO, Farm Bureau, etc. (i.e. Farm Bureau supports NAIS, against the wishes of the majority of farmers in the country.)
4. Have you done a cost analysis on how much in certifier/inspection fees various sized farms would have to pay? If not, how much did YOU pay for each of the following:
a. remineralization of soil a la Midwestern Bio Ag and Gary Zimmer's program
b. veterinary consulting
c. dairy inspection consulting
d. milk testing costs per month (within and outside of what a milk processor does)
4. What kind of relationship will your organization have to raw milk farmers who don't want to join?
5. How do you feel your organization fits into the "get to know your farmer" model that's currently being promoted by the raw milk/local foods community?
6. Are farms who also wish to sell to a processor allowed to join?
These are real world questions that you'll need to answer if you want your plan to succeed. Let's start a conversation here. Tell us how you plan to create and implement your brand/organization. Aren't farmers like me and others here the ones you would be courting to join your organization? And the consumers here the ones you want to buy this milk?
And a note:
"DATCP/FDA et al are antagonistic relationships – my relationship to my organic certifier is not. They are there to help."
Your organic certifier is acting as a contractual agent to the federal government, as the USDA runs the organic program. You certifier is there to help because it gets paid based on the number of certified farms in it's membership. You pay membership fees don't you? (Inspection fees and a percentage of all organic product sold.)
Scott, this is a chance to redeem yourself. Let's talk about your proposal. Obviously I have concerns about how it would manifest. If you really want this brand/organization to materialize, you have to be able to answer these questions.
Okay – I will be back to answer as best I can – but right now, I really do need to milk some cows – as my wonderful wife has said "get the heck of that computer". Yes dear…..
1. I guess I'm not thinking national yet. I've found in all I do, that I have to start small. And leave certain problems as not solved, but chunk it out into things that can be. "where it's illegal", well, that certainly is a problem right here. Illegal – but very much in favor in the public eye. Me – and others – being very forthright about safety – allows those IN power good reason to keep the bad people at bay. I really am not going to spell out all my strategy here. I would just reiterate that the more effort towards quality and safety you put forth, the easier it is for more people to defend you.
One ace up my sleeve I'm also not going to play quite yet either on abilities to work around, specifically, the 4 people up at DATCP that are the heart of the problem. And it really is that – if not for those 4 – we wouldn't be living in fear. But – FDA/fitting into "knowns" — people, and institutions becoming 'comfortable' with what you're doing – there are processes. For example, USDA has a "Process Verified" program – basically a framework that allows any group with any "process" they want to verify to setup a structure to do so. Yep, paperwork, no one likes paperwork, or inspections, yet, I find they can end up being useful for management if done right. My organic paperwork, for example. It IS just so much damn paperwork. I keep waiting for the "gizmo" – the software that ties all that good information that is separate – together to make it useful for management.
That's also towards #2. FDA does also have prior experience in "peer policing" of processes. In fact, my neighbor has done just such a thing that ended up satisfying USDA – in making it a "non-problem" for them. It involved peer review – one business reviewed another – yep, paperwork et al, you just can't escape it – but it has been done.
I like the idea of using existing "structures" for a new purpose in order that that comfort of the known, in part, is brought to the unknown. You put together one heck of a program – and FDA rejects it – they look like assholes.
3. Pitfalls of other organizations. That is a good one – man do I hate me big organizations of any kind. They are slow, inflexible, and filled with tiny little bureaucrats wasting incredible time and money. So, I look to things that DO work. The Amish community – has all sorts of 'limits' built in – for example, all the people in your church need to fit in the house – well – when they get too big – new church. Malcolm Gladwell talks about the size factor in "The Tipping Point" – some what, 100, or was it 150 is the maximum size where everyone can know each other. Well, okay, so we know this. Self-limit to a size. What is that number? Regional? You know, we have already these ideas in family-neighborhood-township-county-state-country. What is a logical size? Don't know exactly. I do know OV is way, way, way too big.
I'm just not going to be able to solve every problem before we get to a something. Maybe even a flawed unworkable something that leads to the workable something. I do know one way to failure is to believe it all has to be perfect and all encompassing; then nothing gets done.
4. Relationship to those that don't want to join – that is the easiest one. Raw milk advocates across the board, but that we are here, with a standard, opens a dialog. So consumers will become familiar with 'the brand', and as they talk to a farmer that's not in 'the brand', they can ask, so, you differ from 'the brand', how? And they ought be able to answer that reasonably.
I am looking to insulate myself from those that will have an ability to offer raw milk – but really shouldn't. I am really concerned about that; in building a separate brand, okay, people got sick over here, well, that's a terrible thing, we feel bad about that, really have nothing to say about them, but we can tell you all about our brand….
5. "Get to know your farmer" – fits in very well. We're looking at like minded people coming together in a way that allows them economies in many things. Others will benefit, no way to keep that benefit tight, no desire to. We will be a part of making consumers more sophisticated – knowing the right questions to ask – and the rising tide raises all boats. That fellow that's not doing a great job is going to get those uncomfortable questions enough times to grudgingly do something about it or do something else.
6. Who wish to sell to processors? Oh yeah, you bet. It would be fantastic TO be able to combine our milk and get our own products made, and sell them at our farms, too. Support great existing and new dairy plants out there, like Cedar Grove. I myself – wow, does that not make sense. 5 or so of us filling one of their single axle trucks? Yeah! We could sell a lot of cheese from our 5 farms I'll bet. But the OV held tight thing, that's just plain sad. And totally weird in their usual sinister way that Dean says okay to sell some raw milk.
I am with you on the whole organic thing – but – I was there in 2002 when it passed – our farm has ridden the wave that the 'legitimizing' and 'homogenizing' of organic under the USDA label has done. It sure hasn't been perfect, but when you get the new pasture rule out there, and people getting more sophisticated, I look out and see lots more farms under the organic label.
How's that for a start, anyway?
Scott
It would be entirely possible that this inspection – being admittedly 'burdensome' for me now – is my effort to add more than whatever the Grade A brand is – wouldn't need to be quite like that if it were packaged. Perhaps the organic inspectors – which have added "Grassfed"? Would be of a mind to add this too. I don't know.
With all beginnings – more cost in the now, less in time.
Preserving independent identity and methods, while having enough commonality to assure that comfort that will greatly increase the number of people consuming the product. THIS people, is rightly what the dairy industry should fear – doing the job right – and lots of people buying direct from the farm DOES step on their precious little slave industry.
Some of these things have a 'history' – the age of W.D. Hoard – groups of farmers got together and talked about quality, methods, for a collective goal of improvement. Brought about that 'America's Dairyland' reputation. It was only later eroded to what we have today, which is pretty much everyone for themselves.
The picture isn't painted yet – so exciting to have such a fresh canvas – and the creativity – the will – to get somewhere – accomplish something so good. It will be hard. Anything good is hard.
I'm getting inspiration from reading about Ben Franklin, and the creation of the United States. What a character – as flawed as they get – yet – able to work together even though they drove each other nuts a whole lot of the time. But the common goal beyond themselves bound them together – as well as that common threat. Sounds familiar.
Is it a bad thing if we all have to give a little to get so much more? If rather than "whatever I do is going to have to be fine" to "what if I let my comrades down…."
All in peace,
Scott
minimum 4 cows maximum 10 per farm
Only Jersey and Galloways will be accepted into the program. Unfortunately other breeds will not be allowed (all other breeds have a higher incidence of potential raw pathogens.)
There is weekly pathogen testing. if you fail one test your license will be suspended for 6 months and will require 3 successive clear tests.
the total application fee will be in the ball park of 1500.00 but that is only to be paid bi annually
the good part is we have a system so we can all relax.
Scott, Thanks again for stepping up to be a hero but I already took care of everything. we're all set everyone. we can finally put a fork in this quest for raw milk sales because its done.
Boy am I awesome, I told everyone I would make history. Everyone else just lays around and doesn't act, but not me. I have fixed it good for everyone.
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This really gets you thinking huh?? If it were really true Scott you would be pissed because I'm sure this would not have been your ideal system and you would have went kicking and screaming to the keyboard to voiceup.
That is how it feels to everyone who does not want to drink your kool aid.
Do your own thing and do it for yourself. If I we wantt YOUR help we'll ask for it.
Thanks anyhow but the best system here is the lack of one.
cp
For the large farms, I would go a step further based on our experience in California: a third party needs to monitor implementation. We've had standards here and yet we still have a history of a large dairy outsourcing. In OPDC's "RAMP" written in the spring of 2010 if memory serves, there is actually a provision for receiving a bulk tank delivery. Why would a dairy make provision to receive thousands of gallons of product when it does not outsource? I have suggested that OPDC allow some of us access to its Milk Pool records to verify its claim that it is no longer outsourcing and, yet, even though it states on the website that all records are open to the public, we have not been able to verify that the outsourcing has stopped. OPDC has taught us that self-enforcement has limited value.
Amanda
1) Scott's farm is not particularly big. We were going to be transporting his milk as grade B milk in 10 gallon cans, to be turned into raw milk cheese, before DATCP denied him the license. He is probably bigger than your farm, Amanda (though I could be wrong…) but he is definitely smaller than Mark McAfee, or than Uplands Cheese which is a raw milk farmstead award winning cheesemaker in SW Wisconsin milking about 120 cows, or Saxon Creamery in Eastern WI which is rotationally grazing 500 cows and making raw milk cheese.
The average WI dairy farm milks about 70 cows (about twice the size of Scott's dairy herd) although there are increasing numbers of Wisconsin CAFO's milking 1000+ cows and getting large subsidies from the government for their manure digesters (ick…..)
2) I think David made this point before… Even if Mark McAfee is outsourcing raw milk, why should it matter if no one is getting sick? Especially if the outsourced raw milk is only being used for Grade B processing (cheese and butter).
IIs your concern that the suspected outsourced milk is of inferior nutritional or pro-biotic quality, or is it about pathogens? I think the reason that he has a procedure for receiving bulk tanks of milk is because it is moved from the mobile milking parlor on pasture to the processing and bottling room.
You still owe the readers an explanation or apology. Or both.
You've got these lofty ideas that you obviously haven't thought out very well. Questions and concerns have been raised, but you didn't really answer any of them.
Is this your idea or this the idea of the secret group of Wisconsin raw milk producers? The one you have to be part of or your opinion doesn't matter? You know, the Siegmann-Brunner-Craigs et al, with Fall Though the Cracks Legal Defense Fund and Jolene the Lobbyist? Isn't this the same group that told others to sit down and shut up when they had different ideas from the group? And who's paying the lobbyist? $11,400 so far seems a lot for struggling farmers.
http://ethics.state.wi.us/scripts/CurrentSession/LEOEL.asp?PrinID=4324
I'm waiting for an answer and I will question you again.
Barney Google
When my own animals are dry, I buy raw milk from a nearby dairy. In the spirit of "know your farmer", I've "inspected" the farm and approved their process for my family. If the milk is outsourced, the farm approval aspect moves outside my span of control. That is where I draw the line with raw milk, personally.
Just a few observations about the farm size issues that cropped up here –
I have to admit, I was really provoked when Scott dismissed my concerns that his proposed inspection process sounded burdensome for small producers.
(he suggested that small = hobby = not-a-living = not valid)
I can't help but notice that on one hand, Scott is saying he wants to be different from "rigid" Grade A standards. On the other hand, he appears to have defined a fairly rigid ideal regarding number of cows –
So take that for what it's worth. It's your dream and if you want a group of farms with x # of head to band together, that's your business. Maybe the readers of this forum are too broad in scope to be expected to evaulate this model for you.
I believe in many of the tenets of permaculture, and I hope to see this type of farming expand in the near future. If that's the case, I believe there will be a growing number of folks who are going to diversify and will not take on a strict "dairy" operation. The number of dairy animals on such farms will likely be much lower than Scott's ideal.
With that in mind, the approach I favor is something like the Cottage Industry Law that was recently passed in Michigan, except it should nclude milk and dairy products. I don't favor the a dollar limit, as Michigan implemented. I think qty of products sold is more stable. (What's up with that state, anyway? Talk about schizo – first they embrace NAIS, then they turn around and lead the way with this legislation? Weird!)
You like Bill Marler and you like responsibility. The thing is, your consumers have to be responsible too. It's a contract. Otherwise, look out what happens when one of your customers gets sick and looks around for someone to sue.
One more time………OPDC has not bought any outside milk for years….which document would you like to see to verify this. When we did purchase outside milk it was organic and it was only used to make class #4 products like cheese or butter. Straus and Clover Stornetta do this all the time. It is not illegal, it is not unsafe and we have never hidden this from anyone.
I am really unsure why this is a problem for you Amanda….we have never ever purhased raw milk to be bottled as fresh raw milk ( Class #1 product ).
One more time….we only use our raw milk to make everyone of our products for several years now….
Scott…
OPDC began to become really successful politically when it did a couple of things:
1. We settled all of our lawsuits with the FDA and the CDFA and stopped spending money on lawyers ( not FTCLDF but other lawyers that cost us a fortune and got us little to nothing except for heartache and bills ) and we started spending our time and money on education and outreach.
2. We had RAW MILK hearings at the state capital with an open minded progressive senator ( senator Dean Florez ) . He invited and also demanded that "all of the sides" of the raw milk argument come to a hearing and put the facts into archives for all to see and study. When this happened the other side refused to show up and one hell of a record was created and all harrassment stopped. It was the testimony of moms and their kids and the retailers, doctors and scientists from arround the world that sent the raw milk ball out of the ball park….homerun and relative raw milk peace in CA.
We have had peace in CA since that hearing. No one will touch raw milk and just leave it alone. We have friends all over the legilsature and the executive now and raw milk is somewhat protected and somewhat sacred.
I suggest a similiar tact…..start with the people and then make friends in the legislature. The people need to educate their senators and assemblymen….then ask for hearings and show up in kind well educated droves….ask and answer the hard questions.
You will win.
You will win if the win is for the consumers of WI not a win for you or other farmers.
Raw Milk is a consumers fight….the dairy industry has the political clout to kill any dairymans best laid plans or dreams. Politically the dairy industry can not attend and answer to hundreds of moms that say:
My kid is sickened by pasteurized milk products but made well by raw milk….
The dairy industry will not attend this hearing and the battle win will be yours.
Dear WatchWitch….please move on and choose a new subject to harp on!
Mark
"2) I think David made this point before… Even if Mark McAfee is outsourcing raw milk, why should it matter if no one is getting sick? Especially if the outsourced raw milk is only being used for Grade B processing (cheese and butter).
IIs your concern that the suspected outsourced milk is of inferior nutritional or pro-biotic quality, or is it about pathogens? I think the reason that he has a procedure for receiving bulk tanks of milk is because it is moved from the mobile milking parlor on pasture to the processing and bottling room."
I can't speak for Amanda Rose, but to me the issue is one of honesty and transparency. If the milk (or other dairy product) sold is advertised and labeled as coming from OPDC's cows,then the milk or dairy product should indeed be from OPDC's cows.
Jean
Your point is exactly on target. We decided to stop buying any amount of outside organic raw milk for class #4 use in butter or cheese because of what you just said. We have chosen to have all of our products be from our organic pasture grazed cows…..and not just organic cows. This has shorted the market and many times there is no cheese or butter available.
In my humble opinion ( for what it is worth ), it is not dishonest to make yogurt from organic milk and brand it as your own product as long as you tell your customers that the milk came from organic cows that were not your own. Straus, Nancys, WF 365 Brand, Clover Stornetta, Brown Cow…. they all do this!? Are they unethical? I think not!!
We have never ever been shy to tell everyone about what we have done in the past….who cares???? the result is that now sometimes there is no raw butter in CA and or Raw Cheese from OPDC on shelves.
Was that an important objective for someone to achieve???
For the OPDC WatchWitch it seems to be a lifes mission.
Mark
I see that you are quite bothered by the fact that Amanda asks you legitimate questions about your practices. Im actually glad for this Wonderful Watching Woman and what she has uncovered about you past business practices. You go on and on about all the other organic dairies that outsource, but there is one problem with your logicTHEY ARE NOT SELLING RAW MILK DAIRY PRODUCTS!!!!!!! They are outsourcing milk that is intended for pasteurization.
Thou protest too much.
cp
RAMP was created and developed in early 2008 and at that time we wanted a protocol that covered outsourcing QA. In the year prior, in 2007, we did purchase some organic raw milk for use in making raw butter and or raw cheese…both class #4 products. This provision of RAMP has been dormant and unused for about 3 years now.
Thanks for the question and thank you more importantly for reading RAMP and making an effort to understand how it is used.
Mark
As a Weston A. Price Foundation chapter leader I can tell you people have much more confidence in traditional foods like raw milk when they are educated about traditional nutrient dense diets and cultures that lived healthy existences because of those diet choices, some even become real fighters for the cause. In this country most Americans have only known food safety in terms of germ killing (heat/irradiation) and have little or no inclination to think about foods as health-promoting, nutrient dense substances laden with beneficial bacteria. I think that for decades food has been considered a hunger and taste satisfying commodity only, with little or no thought given to what health consequences, good or bad, are reaped.
My experience as a chapter leader is that people are largely ignorant of the factory farm model. Generally when people think of food origin their perception is traditional, that is, they think their food comes from a family farm (like the nice picture on the milk or egg carton) where wholesome ideals are a given. GMOs in the food supply simply dont register and the problems associated with CAFOs are usually not on the radar; however, this is slowly changing as the pathogenic microbe world is forcing people to think about what exactly is food safety and how to obtain such foods. With antibiotic resistance circling the globe, more consumers are scared enough to stop being complacent and start thinking beyond the status quo response of get-sick-get-prescription mentality.
I like the idea of farmer independence and fighting for this right of food freedom, and I like the idea of going beyond Grade A and being true to the mission of quality and cooperative purpose as Scott is proposing, but at the moment too few Americans stand at our side, especially in WI and other states which have little or no legal means to obtain raw milk. In my opinion the political base is not large enough to usher in permanent change or even small steps like a cowshare for states like WI I hope Im wrong, we came close to having a Bill passed.
I am not suggesting for a moment we take a reprieve in fighting for food freedom, but rather to put much more energy into addressing nutrition ignorance and instilling confidence in the consumer via an educational process which stirs their complacency and gives them hope for a better, healthier tomorrow. Personally I cant think of a better way to do this than to promote the 28 page brochure of the Weston A. Price Foundation. If you have not reviewed this booklet go to: http://www.westonaprice.org/abcs-of-nutrition/475-principles-of-healthy-diets.html. I think this booklet is a real cheerleader for change.
We need to end this unfriendly blog dispute and get top notch educational information into the hands of Americans. We also need more chapter leaders for the WAPF join me and over 400 other chapter leaders!