There was an interesting article in the Chicago Sun-Times over the weekend about the growing popularity of locally produced food. While there have been any number of such articles in recent months, this one made some important additional points that tend to be ignored by the mainstream media: namely, that people are seeking good food for the sake of good health, and that our government is aggressively fighting that notion.
The article concluded: “As the momentum builds among those looking for ways to grow closer to their families and their communities, and as more of the population turns its attention to prevention of disease and other chronic health woes, Weaver believes eating locally will grow ever more mainstream.
” ‘We don’t want to have to search out that food in extraordinary ways. We just want it to be available,’ she said. ‘We just want to be normal.'”
Yes, “normal” is a nice way to be, especially when it comes to availability of nutrient-dense foods. Convenience is the American way, after all.
In all the discussion about Rawesome, which has morphed into various tangential issues, such as outsourcing and even food safety, one fundamental reality is being overlooked: The shutdown of Rawesome involved dumping and stealing huge amounts of good food (in both the June 30, 2010, and August 3, 2011, raids) and is depriving people of real food they have come to value very highly. Food safety has not been an issue for Rawesome. There are no allegations by the authorities that anyone has become ill in at least six years Rawesome has operated from its current location.
I’m now hearing stories that Rawesome members are actually contacting suppliers of the food club, seeking to obtain favorite foods by ordering direct. I suppose that is a potential stop-gap solution, but it is only stop gap–the ultimate in inconvenience–and it doesn’t solve the fundamental problem of being able to regularly access the healthy foods of their choosing.
The problem is that people become highly dependent–shall we say addicted–to health-giving foods. That’s because good health is addictive. As Goatmaid put it in a comment following the previous post, “A good portion of my customers were ill, and are now better. I don’t particularly care whether my raw milk and other farm-raised foods actually cured them or acted as placebo.”
For government agencies to conspire to deprive people of important, difficult-to-obtain natural foods seems the utmost in cruelty. Indeed, federal and local agencies have treated the Rawesome case much as they do terrorist cases. They used documentation from their June 30, 2010, raid to call on suppliers of Rawesome, and suggest that supplying Rawesome is not a good idea.They shuttered Rawesome supplier Morningland Dairy in Missouri for the mere presence of listeria in several cheese samples, despite no illnesses.
If there are other issues among those involved in running Rawesome–the Los Angeles County D.A. has suggested money laundering and tax evasion–those issues should be handled with the individuals. The founder of Whole Foods was accused of securities law violations a few years back, yet you didn’t see Whole Foods being closed down. Cargill’s foods have killed people, yet not only is the company operating as normal, not even any officials are being accused of crimes.
I’m beginning to wonder: Is the cruelty of depriving your population of essential foods a war crime? If there were a real war going on, with guns firing, it could be. A United Nations panel has accused the Sri Lanka military of war crimes for denying food to civilians in a war zone.
We’re certainly edging closer to war here, as guns have been drawn in the war on Rawesome (see photo above). For now, the answer to government attacks on food distribution is to go underground, avoid fixed locations like the Rawesome outlet in Venice, CA. In the meantime, perhaps we should be gathering names for possible war crimes actions against those guilty of this basest of crimes–stealing the people’s food.
To paint this movement and actions against it as a war is to put it in familair terms. Something from our past in which to understand it.
The local food movement has many diverse reasons for altering choice but none of them is to pick a fight or stay in the status que of our known limitations.
To declare it is a war is to keep it in the known parameters of our history.
If you really want to define it in old terms at least call it for what it is, our fathers let our choices be made by others for the sake of that convience you talk about, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I have never known taking responsibility to be convienent.
This is an age old problem of our species but at least now we have the means to couple understanding with building brain function with our food choices but those with the absolute like the position we have given them as much as we like our local food.
We have already won any so called war you are trying to detail, we out number those in control, and always have.
Tim Wightman
This is what I am talking about.There is no such thing as a good or bad microbe.The function that a microbe performs in a system is determined by context .You have labeled each microbe as either good or bad.that is a mistake and it clouds your understanding of the system as a whole.these organisms that you label as "pathogens" are not the cause of a dis ease.A dis ease is an imbalance.When your system is out of balance it seeks to regain it's balance.Sometimes the symptoms of this rebalancing are necessarily powerful.We are starting from different ends of the subject.You are starting with the individual organisms studied in a controlled environment and using this information to try to understand a complex changing system.I like the approach that soil scientists have taken.They look at the system as a whole in the environment and study it as a whole system,realizing that roles of individual organisms change as the system changes.
You have to admire the foresight of Aajonus Vonderplanitz. If what he is saying is true about Rawsome, then it is a good thing he setup some alternatives in advance. Hopefully the customers who have been cut off by the Rawsome raid can access nutrient dense foods in LA through Aajonus' new clubs.
Miguel — we are talking in circles here. Again, there are many people out there with weakened immune systems, in which even a small population of pathogens can potentially cause life-threatening illness. The burden of food safety rests on producers of food, not on the consumers, and to suggest that these people would get sick merely because of an "imbalance" in their system, is to play into the game of blaming the victim.
I would agree with you, that people who have a healthy gut ecology and immune system (such as you and I) can consume low levels of pathogens without them causing an imbalanace in our system (aka, an illness). I know this from first-hand experience.
However, not everyone is as fortunate as us. Hopefully, by producing pathogen-free raw milk and raw milk cheese, we can help restore the immune systems of more people. By understanding the ecology of these organisms, and utilizing conditions-based standards along with routine laboratory testing, we can produce safe and bio-diverse foods without risking the health of immuno-comprimised consumers.
You cannot use the tools of the oppressor to become free of oppression. Einstein said, "You can't solve a problem with the same kind of thinking that created it in the first place." Fight fire with fire, and everyone just gets burned.
I am in awe of how Michael Schmidt went about his struggle in Ontario: with grace and dignity and without even verbal violence. Ghandi freed India without a "war," why can't we free food in a similar manner?
Listeria plays an important role in soil health, and in particular, in the decomposition of organic matter (read: composting). However, in cheese, it is definetly a bad thing, and it behooves us to keep listeria out of our cheese.
The same is true of just about any pathogen. Take E. Coli — it is a natural inhahibtant of the intestinal tract, and plays an important role in digestion, but if you allow E. Coli free reign over your cheese making milk, you end up with a putrid, gassy curd.
Staph. Aureus is a natural and healthy part of the skin microflora, but when it gets into milk or cheese and is able to grow to dangerous concentrations, it becomes a problem. I know a cheese maker who lost an entire vat of raw milk cheese to Staph. Aureus because his lactic acid starter culture was injured due to temperature abuse of the culture.
Context absolutely is important for a pathogen. The context we want for pathogen is NOT in our food, but in their appropriate place in the eco-system.
You are not able to understand that microbes perform different roles in a system as it changes.If you start with the unsupported assumption that certain individual organisms cause disease,it is not surprising that you come to the conclusion that a particular organism is disease causing in all situations.That is circular thinking.People have compromised immune systems because they consume too many anti microbial substances and too few microbes.What would a meadow look like if you routinely sprayed it with herbicides and made sure that no seeds were allowed to germinate on it?Bare ,eroded ground with lots of soil loss.That's what most people are unwittingly doing every day simply for the sake of convenience If you stop applying herbicides,and let whatever seeds that are there germinate,the healing will begin.We can speed up the healing by adding many different varieties of seeds.Natural succession will eventually lead to a more stable and resilient system..At this time in history we will have to abandon convenience if we want to be healthy.The first step to health is to avoid anti microbials.The next step is to consume a wide variety of probiotic foods.The first step takes a lot of education and is not at all convenient.The second step is delicious,mind expanding and community building. In other words,lots of fun,but not convenient.
I wonder why so many of us cannot post on this website while bill seems to be able to get on whenever.
The context we want for milk is a community of bacteria thoroughly dominated by lactic acid bacteria to the extent that all of the opportunistic bacteria are essentially dormant.
"Are the raw milk raids to distract from something far more deadly to farming?"
http://foodfreedom.wordpress.com:80/2011/08/17/are-the-raw-milk-raids-to-distract-from-something-far-more-deadly-to-farming/
"In order to control spam, please type the characters you see in the box below, then click 'Confirm Post' to continue with this post. "
and have to type in various letters, sometimes I forget and click "create post" and log out without typing the letters and my post isn't posted.
One of the reasons people get C-diff in the hospital is because the antibiotics (or other drugs) kill the "good" bacteria that keeps the c-diff under control in the gut. Many are also on anti ulcer medications which further decreases the stomach acids that are supposed to help control various bacterias along with digestion.
The constant on-slot of herbicides/pestcides, et al also changes the natural flora in the gut which affects the normal health of the guts cells.
If you live in a sterile world, you will never build natural immunity. They put people who are on chemo in reverse isolation, with no fresh flowers or fresh produce because their immune system is so compromised.
It seems convenience has been pushed on the population since the end of WWII. How many studies are there of the nutritional value of food today being so much less than the same food 50-75 yrs ago? Farmers markets can be made convenient. I am sure there are local green houses up north. US grown foods should be promoted above all imports. Teaching people how to cook local seasonal is harder.
Tim Wightman
Well said, Tim, Well said.
You and I know, David, that Rawesome and Healthy Family Farms were/are highly mismanaged. To say that this is a larger issue, a WAR on food choices, has irked me since the day the outsourcing fraud allegations were made known from this case.
There is a larger picture, yes. The FDA is corrupt. We who pay attention to food issues know that. We also know if you pay attention to many other issues in our country that the government is increasingly turning against the people by using police force and aggression.
Why go underground? There are many resources for these foods locally and online. Aajonus had even started another co-op locally that many are buying from. Last I saw they had a website, is that underground? If people do it right and with integrity there is no need to go underground.
The real inconvenience is that the producers who are producing high quality products locally here in CA are selling out quickly because of the Rawesome fall out. And to me, that is GREAT news. Demand is outpacing supply. Hopefully that will encourage others to supply with integrity. The real market, and real food movement charges on.
Meanwhile I will be buying raw milk here in LA, enjoying truly pastured meats and eggs, making home made yummy locally sourced and ethical foods like I was able to before, thank you very much.
"Pathogenicity depends on the biological context, so pathogenic traits (virulence factors) need to be defined in terms of their potential to be associated with infection and disease in a particular host. For example, the human gastrointestinal epithelium is exquisitely susceptible to cholera toxin when delivered during infection by Vibrio cholerae. Although the gut epithelium of most animals is also susceptible to the action of the toxin, the disease cholera is seen only in humans: This finding suggests that additional host-specific virulence factors are involved. The vulnerabilities of the mammalian immune defense mechanisms to factors used by microorganisms to exploit or overcome a specific host defense strategy are of critical importance in defining what is and what is not a microbial virulence factor. To restate the point simply, the nature of microbial virulence factors cannot be understood unless the factors are evaluated in the context of the biology of the host."
Aren't they blaming the victim here?Do they say that some microbes are pathogenic to all humans?I don't see that.It is obvious to me that some people are susceptible while others are not.
"the nature of microbial virulence factors cannot be understood unless the factors are evaluated in the context of the biology of the host."
Whether a microbe is dis ease causing or not apparently depends on factors unique to the host of that microbe. If this is true,then how is the microbe itself the cause of the dis ease?
those who don't admit that this is a similar war crime, are "unclear on the concept".. . in order to get the measure of the enemy, read what Alexsandr Solzenhitzen had to say about it all … after surviving 12 years IN THE GULAGS MANAGED BY PEOPLE WITH THE VERY SAME MENTALITY AS THE LAPD … of course those cops are directed from the very top … the Bolshevik poster-boy … Barry Suetoro, son of card-carrying commie Gary Davis
I agree with your most recent post, that the mere presence of a particular type of organism (called a "pathogen") does not neccessarily lead to virulence, and consequently illness, in every individual. HOWEVER, the presence of that organism is one of a number of pre-conditions for foodborne illness — in other words, if that organism would not have been present, the particular illness event could not have happened.
I believe that I do understand very well how microbes perform different functions as the system changes. Cheese making is often described as a process of "controlled rot", and the dynamics in a curd and in the ripening of a cheese are a constant flux.
I could explain in great detail how the roles of the different bacterial players interact as the system changes, but this would be a very legnthy explanation. Suffice it to say that lactic-acid producing bacteria are not the only beneficial players — there are also other bacteria, yeasts, and molds which serve to digest the lactic acid, proteins, and butterfat, yielding other byproducts such as amino acids, peptides, esters, free fatty acids, ammonia, and other organic acids and alkalis, in very a specific way so as to give the cheese a particular characteristic.
Finally, if as you say, "microbes perform different roles in a system as it changes", then I would say that pathogens perform a different role in their correct ecological context than they do in the human gut. A compost pile is a very different system than the human intestinal tract. Do you agree?
If one is engaged in the business of producing and selling food, it is fair to assume that some of the consumers of your food will have an imbalanced gut that is more vulnerable to disruption by an organism with virulent capabilities (which we will call for convenience's sake a "pathogen"). Thus, it is in your interest, as a responsible food producer, to ensure that such organisms with virulent capabilities are not present in your food.
I think the basis of our disagreement, miguel, is that you are not interested in producing food for commercial purposes — you would prefer to produce food only for a closed community that probably already has immunity to any pathogens which may be present in the milk, and this immunity will be tranferred from mother to baby in the womb and in the early stages of breastfeeding, greatly reducing the likelihood of a life-threatening illness when the child begins consuming raw bovine milk.
However, for those of us who seek to EXPAND the number of consumers interested in raw milk, we have to assume that our consumers do not automatically have immunity to the indigenous pathogens to our systems, therefore, extra steps must be taken to control contamination and growth of these organisms. This does not mean a lack of bio-diversity by any measure. It simply means using the good bacteria to eliminate the bad BEFORE the food reaches the consumer, not after they have already consumed it.
We all have been waiting on the edge of our seats to hear what these "extra steps" are.Please don't disappoint us now by keeping this information a secret.
The paper you cite strongly supports why pathogens need to be kept out of the food supply.
Your comment…"Whether a microbe is dis ease causing or not apparently depends on factors unique to the host of that microbe. If this is true,then how is the microbe itself the cause of the dis ease? "
Disease requires both – the microbe and the host. For example, the 2008 GBS case from raw milk contaminated with Campylobacter jejuni happened because 1) the C. jejuni strain had the right combination of virulence factors to cause GBS and 2) the woman who drank the raw milk with C. jejuni in it had the right type of gangliosides to trigger GBS. Thus she became paralyzed while the other herdshare members recovered.
If Mari had never swallowed the Campylobacter in the raw milk (that she bought from a WAPF chapter leader), she would not have the possibility of permanent neurological damage for the rest of her life.
http://www.triplicate.com/20091103107383/Online-Extras/Community/MARIS-CLIMB-3-Part-Series
http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/real-life-stories/#RawMilkFactsVideo5
MW
Mike Schmidt has used the word WAR to describe this battle, even though he speaks like Ghandi.
I am sure that this war can be seen from many angles and each has its own take. They are each probably correct and each pushes the issue that much closer to mainstream exposure.
Although I am all for peace and negotiation, I know that the real power comes from two places…#1 the power of dollar voting and teaching and #2 more dollar voting and teaching.
The power that comes out of the end of a gun is real…but it is sick, really sick. It is used by the weak and the cowardly to oppress those that will not take no for an answer.
I say….use peace 99% of the time, but always be prepared for the 1%. There is nothing to be ashamed of if you spend time at the range and get bulls eyes. Everyone at the range is very very courtious…. I know exactly why.
Please enjoy this piece of educational radicalism. I wrote this months ago and it just got published in the Progressive Dairyman magazine. Wow!!
Times are changing for sure.
http://www.progressivedairy.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6911:organic-raw-milk-producer-dead-dairy-is-dying&catid=40:polls&Itemid=66
RAWMI is very close to its grand opening. We are all very excited, yet wanting to assure that everything is as good as we can get it prior to the big reveal.
All the best,
Mark
I'd like to hear more about your SSOP.
You cannot achieve this Bill . . . in any environment . . . even in hospitals where HAI (Hospital Acquired Infections) are the number one killer of anyone who even has a routine surgery.
This is not practical . . . and should never, ever be endorsed.
I am all for voluntary testing of raw milk . . . but you will never, ever see a culture show up with zero pathogens. There will always be that stray e-coli bacteria. Plate a sample of CAFO milk one day after the expiration (many drink milk a few days after the expiration date) . . . and see what you come up with . . . take a sample of CAFO chicken juice that is the major contaminant of any kitchen out there and see what you come up with . . take a swab of a hand cleaned with ordinary soap and see what you come up with . . . the results may surprise you.
We are surrounded by pathogens . . . a healthy immune system is primed and ready to kill any pathogen that invades our bodies.
The exception are those pathogens that have been either made resistant to antibiotics through a CAFO environment or hospital. They are now commonly found nearly everywhere. DH developed a MRSA infection that was life threatening several years ago . . . from an ordinary bug bite.
You cannot eliminate pathogens . . . . unfortunately, due to CAFO's and abusive use of antibiotics . . . we need to learn to live with them.
Kind regards,
Violet
http://www.kilbyridgefarmmaine.blogspot.com
The goal is not zero pathogens anywhere. As I pointed out, many pathogens do play an important and beneficial ecological role in contexts other than food and digestion.
The goal is zero pathogens IN THE MILK. This is an entirely achievable goal, and has already been achieved by many raw dairies. The key is in reducing the load of pathogens in the enviroment through good management and good total ecological health, combined with sanitary harvesting of the milk.
I do agree with you that having a robust immune system is important. But unfortunately, there are many Americans who do not because of our corporate profit-driven food system of the last 100 years. We have to consider this when we go about producing raw milk. We do not exist in a vacuum of only people with a strong immune system, unfortunately.
The numbers don't lie…and raw milk is one of the safest food supplies in the country today…..perfect?….hardly…but I guess if there is money to be made by duping people in thinking you can make it better…I guess that is what America is all about.
Mainstreaming comes with a cost (and I'm not talking about Institute dues)
Reading this statement brought to mind the infectious disease rates and vaccinations here in the US. There is no vaccination for scarlet fever or typhoid yet both are fairly rare-most likely because of improved sanitation, better nutrition, clean water.
http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/docs/Fielding%20CDC%20L2L%207.8.08%20-%20FINAL.pdf
Slide 3 shows there was a downward trend before vaccinations and the use of penicillin. Probably because of better nutrition and sanitation. Yet our govt pushes the use of drugs of all kinds.
Slide 9 shows increase in smoking greatly after the Depression, The govt GAVE free cigarettes to the GIs in their C&K rations. Advertising increased along with sales. Sales decreased with AD bans…
http://www.dphhs.mt.gov/publichealth/cancer/documents/EpidemiologicTransition.pdf
"common infectious diseases accounted for 40% of all deaths in 1900 but they accounted for only 4% of all deaths in 2000. Cardiovascular disease (CVD; heart disease and stroke) accounted for 14% of all deaths in 1900 and for 37% in 2000. Cancer accounted for only 4% of all deaths in 1900 but for 23% in 2000"
It appears the key is clean water, clean environment, good nutrition, good sanitation. Heart disease and cancer have been on the rise since the 1920s-1930s, infectious diseases have been declining since then.
I applaud your teaching efforts and your desire to produce a quality product for so many people — it is not how I choose to get my raw milk, but I think it's wonderful that advocate for all of us. I really wish the dollar voting worked. Right now our government is purchasing over $40million in chickens from the big factory farms because of low demand (presumably from consumers voting AGAINST purchasing that unhealthy, irresponsibly raised, pathogen-filled trash) but the government is bailing them out, effectively canceling out our dollar votes. This saddens and angers me so much. I am beginning to get discouraged about the food movement. This bailout of bad chicken has been going on in mass quantities since 2008, so it must precede Obama — again, this abuse of our system spans our political parties and the blame must be applied to all.
http://www.takepart.com/news/2011/08/18/chicken-industry-gets-40-million-bailout
Peace to all,
Alice
"The problem is that people become highly dependent–shall we say addicted–to health-giving foods. That's because good health is addictive."
As a psychologist, I would strongly prefer "we" not "say addicted" to health-giving foods, nor that "good health is addictive". To do so is to pervert both concepts. It also gives the opponents of raw foods leverage to extend their efforts to restrict access to them, since an addiction is an enslavement.
Then revelations appeared of their real intent to create a dairy board with regulations and fees and certifications, just like the CAFO one only for raw milk, eventually to be mandatory down the road (ah! just like NAIS!!)–not to mention exposure of their grand building plans which only confirmed those intents.
Suddenly, they both switched from years of "Raw Milk is Safe" defense to expounding that "Raw Milk is Potentially Full of Dangerous PATHOGENS!" and how only RAWMI-certified milk with its ZERO-PATHOGENS policy will protect people from dangerous, dirty raw milk produced by shifty, unwashed, UNCERTIFIED producers who don't care about their milk–because IF THEY CARED, they would REGISTER IMMEDIATELY WITH RAWMI! And those who won't, OBVIOUSLY HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE, otherwise they would register!!
Every day since their announcement of RAWMI, Mark and Bill's drumbeat of pathogen dangers has increased in intensity, constancy and predictability. I see now that once RAWMI gets going, their message is going to be: "People, FLEE from these greedy producers of dangerous, uncertified raw milk… they will make you sick, even kill you. Accept only RAWMI-Certified Raw Milk for your OWN safety!"
Mark, and especially Bill, now sound like potential confederates of USDA/FDA. I'm guessing they're trying pacify their handlers in exchange for RAWMI approval… and who knows, maybe Bill is even angling for a government job, ha! That would also explain his sudden switch in views on "the dangers of pathogens" and his ever vociferous attempts to convince that we uncertified raw milk producers are making people ill with our milk unless we register with RAWMI. Worse, they won't even tell us exactly what's involved… just expect us to sign up!! HEY!!
how appealing.
But mostly I'm sick and tired of hearing how dangerous "uncertified" raw milk is. There are MILLIONS of people drinking this milk every single day–and only a small proportion of those millions drink commercial raw milk. The majority of those millions drink "uncertified" raw milk produced either above or under the table, whether their own, or from relatives, friends or neighbors, or from someone in the next town or even state.
If this "uncertified raw milk" were so dangerous, all these people would be dropping like flies. At the very least, most would immediately stop after the least suspicion of stomach upset… and the demand for raw milk would die.
But these millions of people are neither dropping like flies nor refusing to drink their raw milk. Instead, they're lining up for MORE, and enlisting ever more friends and neighbors and relatives to drink it too: "Don't drink that swill from the grocery store… here, try this milk from Mary's cow, it's incredible! You'll realize just how terrible the CAFO crap really is."
And they will try it and realize it, or they won't… either way, nobody forces them. But as months or years pass and their raw milk friends and relatives not only don't get sick from "uncertified" raw milk but get healthier and their kids have fewer colds and illnesses, they think, "Hmmm, maybe I should try it after all…." and take that first cautious sip. And so the demand grows…
This constant yelling about the dangers of "uncertified" raw milk is aggravating. The millions who drink it every day know how hollow Mark's and Bill's protestations really are.
It's obvious that the goal behind RMI isn't safety….that's just the pretense to commercialize…or mainstream… raw milk. Mark wants more out there like him…large industrial factory raw milk producers. The goal is more raw milk…as much as we can get. Certification is the path way to insurance policies and societal acceptance.
I contend that this is what really will exacerbate the crackdown on raw milk producers…not allow them to thrive 'within' the regulatory system. The stated goal of eliminating cafo milk is the real threat….I think it smarter to let them have the crap if they want…but continue to engage in civil disobedience by keeping the real raw milk flowing.
If you think that Mark has a high profile now…just wait till he's out there promoting the Institute….trashing uncertified farms…and endorsing the fear of those 'unscrupulous uncertified' raw milk producers. It'll happen…just watch!
"Zero human pathogens in raw milk is definitely possible and achievable on a consistent basis. "
http://www.frontiersin.org/evolutionary_and_genomic_microbiology/10.3389/fmicb.2010.00151/full
"Therefore, commonly known bacterial pathogens are probably on their way to extinction, as has occurred for most bacterial species. However, they will likely be replaced by new pathogens specialized for human pathogenesis for as long as human beings are present. These species will emerge from bacterial complexes that are already in contact with humans, arising from human commensals (gut and other mucosal sites), animals (zoonotic agents), or the environment."
One BIG problem with the "zero pathogen" approach is that we are then on a tred mill of unknown proportions.There will always be new pathogens to test for ,many for which no test has been invented yet.Testing will be expensive and unreliable.False positives means throwing out good milk.Conflicting test results from different labs are common.All of this will make raw milk more costly to produce and limit the size of a farm that can produce it to the larger farms.All of these factors seem likely to limit the availablity of raw milk rather than to expand it.I don't believe there is a problem now with the small local distribution of raw milk.Requiring expensive testing will favor larger farms.These farms are the ones with conventional milking systems which were developed with pasteurization in mind.Those systems don't work very well for milk intended to be consumed raw.Go back and read Steve Bemis's article about how homogenization of milk made pasteurization necessary.Modern milking systems with milk pumps and pipeline sock filters do homogenize the milk.Forcing the milk through the sock filter with the milk pump does break up the fat globules into free fatty acids.If the enzymes in the milk are not then denatured by pasteurization they begin to oxidize the free fatty acids resulting in rancid flavors.
The bottom line is that the "zero pathogen" approach will result in poorer quality raw milk rather than better quality raw milk.
Obama appoints Monsanto's vice president as senior advisor to the Commissioner at the FDA: http://www.responsibletechnology.org/blog/858
I particular agree with this comment in the above link:
"I pledge allegiance to the flags of the global corporations that rule America, and to the corruption for which they stand, one nation, under deceit, with sickness and disease for all."
BRAVO, BRAVO, BRAVO,!!!
I have this vision of a hermetically sealed bubble with a cow (previously washed with triclosan) in it and Mark zipping up the plastic wall and approaching said cow wearing a HAZMAT suit and an autoclaved milk apparatus in hand.
Meanwhile . . . Bill is in the cheese room (hermetically sealed of course) with a HAZMAT suit on and stirring up the curds from Mark's morning milking . . .
That is what it will take to make raw milk 100% pathogen free . . . . LOL!
Kind regards,
Violet
http://www.kilbyridgefarmmaine.blogspot.com
RAWMI is all about providing new enhanced tools to farmers and their consumers,so both can thrive. Please hold your stones in hand until after RAWMI is launched in less than 2 weeks. RAWMI listing of raw milk farmers is still a ways off. There is much work to do before that step is made.
Then let the stones fly. I think Jesus had something memorable to say about that as well.
RAWMI is good for America and it's farmers and consumer families. Negative BS is just that. RAWMI is voluntary and it is rational. Farmers that work hard should be identified and rewarded for their efforts at excellence in production of high quality food. The FDA is a hungry angry shark ready to eat the lazy, sloppy, weak or ignorant. They now have the Food Safety Modernization Act to facilitate their Food Inc protective feeding frenzy. The list of farmers queing in the RAWMI line is growing every day.
The only stones I see here are the ones who make you think that you should dictate raw milk production in this country……… they seem to be a bit bigger than your ego, and your head.
Mark, we all want to have information that helps us produce the best food possible.Everyone has something to teach here and everyone has something to learn.I hope you don't think those opposed to rawmi are " lazy, sloppy, weak or ignorant. "
Costs that are spread out over 1000 gallons a day of milk production may seem insignificant to you but try keeping costs down to an affordable level while producing 50 gallons a day .Testing for a long and growing number of "pathogens" will put the cost of milk even further out of reach for most people. Very few of us can afford $9.00/ half gallon milk.
Do you think the shark will be satisfied once it has consumed all of the small scale dairy farmers?Playing their game by their rules is a sure way to lose.The FDA is a force to be reckoned with.I think it makes more sense to encourage many, many small scale producers to start producing.A shark isn't interested in minnows,it needs something with some size to it to satisfy it's appetite.
This Saturday at 9am Pacific, the Food Chain Radio show with Michael Olson hosts Professor Emeritus Dr. Don Huber from Purdue University, for a conversation about a newly-discovered and as yet unnamed glyphosate pathogen. Monsanto has declined an invitation to participate. (Food Chain Radio #739)
Topics include how we know the Monsanto Bug exists when Monsanto says it does not; what impact, if any, this pathogen has on the food chain of plants, animals and people; and why so few in authority want to consider these questions.
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<End, "info gleaned from Food Chain Radio">
In addition to Metrofarm.com one can also listen live @ KSCO.com at 9am PDT 8/20/11.
KSCO is in the San Francisco Bay area.
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Background:
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From:
USDA Presentation 7-7-11,
Dr. Huber Research into Crop Disease, Livestock Infertility and Use of Glyphosate,
Overview
In recent years a link between increasing livestock infertility and a rise in crop disease has been associated with the most widely used agricultural herbicide glyphosate. Ongoing research has found that these problems are further intensified by a previously unknown organism, recently discovered, that is found in fields that have been sprayed with glyphosate. The new organism is found in high concentration in Roundup Ready corn and soybean feed and byproducts. Current scientific research reveals that the new organism, only observable under an electron microscope, is widespread in the environment, found in plant tissue of diseased corn and soy plants, feed, distillers grain, and placental tissue of mammals experiencing high rates of infertility and spontaneous abortions. The new organism is culturable and has been reproduced in laboratory settings. Kochs postulates have been completed for animals to verify the cause/effect relationship with the newly culturable organism, which has been shown to kill a fertilized chicken egg in 24 to 72 hours in a controlled setting.
To date the new organism has been verified in 9 states: IL, IA, KY, MI MO, NE, ND, SD, WI, although a high incidence of reproductive failure is more widespread. High concentrations of the organism have been found in soybean meal, corn leaves, silage products and soybean plants infected with sudden death syndrome (SDS). Additionally, the organism is found in manure, soil, animal tissue, placental tissue, amniotic fluid, semen, stomach contents, eggs and milk. . . ."
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Ill stop quoting here. There are 4 more paragraphs in the Overview, followed by 5 paragraphs of Executive Summary. The presentation is 10 pp.
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Lets keep pushing on this little house of cards known as hubris.
Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard
Regardless of the present legal and regulatory terrain, there is something grossly wrong in the way the very small producers of food are being portrayed. Protestations to the contrary aside, these portrayals have or will grow teeth.
Big Ag, aka Mr. and Mrs. Hubris have raised quite a family. All big and strong.
Take a hike, big boys.
Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard
Can you please tell us who will be paying for the multi-million dollar RAWMI education center?
Great question….I would be happy to provide some details.
OPDC is building a $3.3 million dollar creamery, cheese plant, and dairy facility to allow for expansion of our plant and business. The ground breaking for that new facility is still at least one year away. The plans are done and the permits are already to pull….financing is the last hurdle and it is progessing very well. In that facility are also teaching and educational rooms. We are working very closely with the Fresno EOC ( equal opportunity commission ) to build a school inside this facility for job and nutritional education. We are qualifying for a special "New Market tax Credit" funding package, which provides for job creation, nutritional education and raw milk production. Part of this facility, when completed, will be leased to RAWMI. RAWMI is not funding any new buildings or facilities. OPDC is the cash flow pump and growth machine. It is our hope that RAWMI can help facilitate other raw milk dairies for CA…OPDC can not and should not feed CA alone. We are chronically short of raw milk and it is time for other farmers to step up and help. RAWMI will help other farmers through this transition. RAWMI also helps cow share operations as well.
Please do not assume that RAWMI charges farmers for listing…that is not fair or accurate. We have worked very hard to assure that all farmers from 2 cows to 300 cows can equally participate.
Currently, the RAWMI facility is a rental module ( 12 foot by 44 foot ) that costs $370 per month. Inside that module space is the server, computer nerve center and offices for Stacy Pearson who works as the VP and Secretary for RAWMI. Those of you that were involved with the Minnesota Raw Milk Bill, will remember Stacy. She worked for Senator Nienow….the bill sponsor. She is a terrific fund raiser, teacher, team builder and champion for raw milk.
We will announce our grand opening in about 2-3 weeks. We are working very hard right now to edit website content and get every thing ready. There is a ton of things to do.
Our founding directors are:
Dr. Catarina Berg DVM PhD
Elaina Luther
Bill Anderson
Mark McAfee
Hope this helps with the anticipatory nerves. Keep those stones in your hands….and think before throwing them. We are the best thing to happen to all raw milk. Large or small. RAWMI is dedicated to research and will be engaging polls as a routine and also other essential work.
mark
Mark
Mark
No stones here. I have a lot of respect for you, and both hope and concerns regarding RAWMI. Perhaps looking back at your comments above will help show why some people are so concerned or anti-rawmi before it gets out of the gate.
****We are the best thing to happen to all raw milk. Large or small.
I think comments like this, along with some made by Bill, are why many look at you, bill, RAWMI, with such concern mixed with anger. To claim to be the "BEST thing to happen to ALL of raw milk"?
Now, I think from having talked with you and been very encouraged by you and your support a number of months ago that I understand you a bit better than others around here who may not have had opportunity to chat with you one on one, to see your care and passion and real solid willingness to help others in the movement big or small. They don't get to see that here easily – they don't see the phone calls you take, the emails you answer, the money you give to those who are putting their necks/farms on the line.
Also, as one who has been in the maw of the beast, as you have many times, I know that affects how we operate, how we talk and paint pictures and goals and the like to motivate and move others.
But hopefully you can see why even if they saw more clearly this other side of you, comments like the above are a huge turn off for many to you and RAWMI. Again, I think, if I know you and have heard you speak and watched enough video of you, I get what you are getting it. You are writing a sentence in the present tense because in your head you see the future fulfillment of all that sentence means. You won't say could be the best thing in all raw milk, because in your heart/head, it is a done deal – there will be bumps and bruises along the way, but the end is assured. You see the end before the beginning. you are a true visionary in that sense of the word.
But others don't see these things the same way. On the contrary, they see that sentence as full of the same kind of hubris and foolishness that typifies the USdoHA, the FdohA, and the whole nine yards of industrial ag and financial/economic/world system we now live under and in. They see claims like that through the lens of other such over the top things made in other posts, and it turns them away and hardens them towards a united front. It is statements like these that cause the hurling of stones. You feel it is too early, but yet you don't feel it is too early to make such striking statements? I would say if you want no stones coming your direction, tis better to let your actions come first, and words later.
Hopefully, this little post helps you all understand each other better, and to encourage more care with what we claim and say in our posts. We have far larger adversaries than each other, hopefully, and no traitors in our ranks.
John
Can you give us a CV on : Dr. Catarina Berg DVM PhD
I Googled her name and came up with nothing . . . .
Elania Luther . . . Whole Life Instututue . . . okay . . . . but I don't think she has ever been a farmer.
Bill Anderson . . . . 27 year old unemployed licensed cheesmaker . . . works in a factory . . . Never been a farmer . . .
Mark . . . . is a very eloquent writer and speaker . . . . but rarely if ever milks his cows. . . . looks like (from his website photo's ) that migrant workers do this for him . . .
Is this who whe want to represent us as raw dairy farmers and consumers?
Kind regards,
Violet
http://www.kilbyridgefarmmaine.blogspot.com
Could not revise my post for some strange reason . . .
Violet
If so, she appears to be currently in Belgium, among other places. She was in the Race across America.. Very impressive CV.
Elania Luther- Certified Nutritionist and Wellness Educator http://www.cultureclub101.com/
Very little raw milk experience . . . that I can see . . .
She appears to me to be a very accomplished EU or US bureaucrat. . . .
Elania . . . not a farmer . . .
Kind regards,
Violet
You want to get accepted as a RAWMI Insititute . ..
Here goes,
This is who needs to be on your BOD . . .
-A lawyer who is also a farmer . . .
-Four or FIve Raw milk farmers who are milking under 20 head and have been doing so for -over 10 years without an outbreak.
-Two Raw milk farmers who are milking over 20 head and have been doing so for over 10 years without an outbreak . . .
-A Veterinarian who is a grass based Raw Dairy Expert and knows what it takes to keep a small herd healthy as well as a large herd like you are miliking.
-An accomplished/award winning RAW Artisan cheesemaker (or two) who sells to the top Restaurants and markets in the US.
When you get a group like that together and travel to states where raw milk is legally sold and ask farmers "IF" they would like to be certified . . . . ask kindly . . . . please . .
Then you may be on to something . . .
But until then your RAWMI plan is seriously flawed.
Kind regards,
Violet
Geez….this is going to be a nightmare for those who really care about raw milk….and not how much money they can make from selling it (or how many gallons they can sell).
This effort will be built on FEAR….those that decide not to participate will be used as scapegoats to justify the trust in those who pay the dues. It is so wrong.
So let me get this straight…the people dictating this thing have ZERO experience in a milk barn…. absolutely LAUGHABLE.
While Mark is getting us to worry about the 'sharks'..distracting us…seems like we should be worried about being eaten the biggest of our own…at least when we see the dorsal fin and protruding teeth we know to be alarmed….
Please see the start of RAWMI as a start. Baby steps before crawling and running.
I would encourage you to "forward to me" your dream list of RAWMI executive advisory board candidates that meet the aforementioned criteria.
I also agree that those candidate descriptions are good.
On our executive advisory board we have:
Highly experienced Raw milk dairymen from Pennsylvania
PhD's from Ivyleague University soils research departments
Raw Milk researchers
Medical Pathologists
Medical, Complimentary and Aternative Doctors
Naturopathic doctors
Raw Milk Documentary Film Producers
Raw Milk Blog writers
Raw Milk book authors
Wisconsin Raw Milk dairymen
Award winning cheese makers
Architects
Raw Milk consumers organizational leadership
Internationally renowned raw milk activists and raw milk dairymen
Biologists and Raw Milk experts
Antibiotic resistance researchers
CA State Certified Epidemiologists
Veterinarians
None of these people are me….
As far as attorneys are concerned, we have a top west coast non-profit attorney retained at RAWMI.
Food safety is perhaps not so much about all the things you might think. I was one of the first or the first farmers in America to receive formal HACCP training and certification back in the 1990s from Chapman Univerity. I won an award for field HACCP plan development ( in cooperation with Dr. Bob Stovichek at Primus Labs in CA ) when supplying hundreds of truck loads of HACCP managed apples to ODWALLA from 1997-2003, under the brand McAfee Apple Gardens. In fact Lynn Sher with 20/20 did a special on our accomplishments and the test results.
Safety in food is about leadership. Safety in food is about doing some very simple things consistently. Safety in food is about being conscious of the conditions in which the food is produced and a plan to assure that these conditions are maintained according to your plan for safety.
It is not rocket science…it is harder. It is harder because raw milk happens 24-7-365. Rockets only blast-off on scheduled perfect weather days.
Raw milk is about human behavior, conditions and your plan, it is also about advanced science and testing the products and results of your plan to versify that your plan is working.
Hold those rocks….let RAWMI get started and then pass judgement with the results that it accomplishes. RAWMI is a farmer friendly tool. RAWMI is a consumer tool to see what a farmer is doing in his efforts and the results of those efforts.
RAWMI is leadership. RAWMI spells the end of FDA confusion over raw milk for those that volentarily participate. For those that do not participate….that is ok also. A rising tide floats all boats.
What RMAC has done in CO is wonderful and is embraced by its farmers. RAWMI will be much like RMAC except international in scope and will collect data and perform research. RAWMI will also open up the farmer data to the consumers to review and be a teaching facility to allow the educational process to flourish. RAWMI creates jobs….and is an All American Institute of learning and nutritional prevention of illness.
I do not share the anger over my use of the concept that RAWMI is the best thing to happen to Raw Milk. I do agree that perhaps my statement is visionary and premature.
Let some time pass and then we will see if RAWMI is good for raw milk.
A rising tide floats all boats!!! Especially RAWMI managed refurbished boats with good hulls and no holes below their water lines.
Mark
Dr. Cat Berge is the CAT in the "Four RawMilk Cats" cycling team that broke all female and most male transAmerican cycling race times…..while being powered by raw milk.
Dr. Cat Berge is the CAT in the "Four RawMilk Cats" cycling team that broke all female and most male transAmerican cycling race times…..while being powered by raw milk.
A cheap solution is to just get all of your "Advisors" together and write a book on how to produce safe raw milk . . . agree . . .?
I was approached a few years ago to go "Certified Humane" but decided when looking into it deeper that it was nothing more than a gimmick . . . . RAWMI is that same type of gimmick . . . .
My customers are the ones who decide if I am "Certified Humane" not some "third" party who I have to pay dues to . . . . We also have Certified Organic which is another gimmick if Chinese vegetables can be labeled as such . . . . as well as Certified Pasture Raised . . . you see what I mean everyone . . . . these are all money making ventures and the Certification makes money not for the "Certified" farm but for the institution Certifiying that farm.
I can charge as much for my produce and meats than that "Certified Organic", "Certified Humane", "Certified Pasture Raised", etc., farm . . . . and I don't have to pay $500-$5000 sliding scale rates for that certification either:)
Who are your advisors, Mark . . .name them, please.
A recall or outbreak is not a gimmick. It is serious. RAWMI was formed so raw milk producers could get there sh….together. As I traveled around the USA and Canada, producers and consumers begged for a RAWMI like organization to assist with standards and collect evidence of good performance. RAWMI makes me no money. In fact it has cost OPDC much to help get it launched.
When the web content is further edited….RAWMI will launch. As promised it will be in the first week of September or so. Gimmick is a cheap shot. A portal to allow a farmer to show his safety efforts is a huge tool for the farmer and his consumers. That is not a gimmick.
This is becoming serious. We should all choose our words carefully. Our directors are deeply dedicated to this cause. The scattered fractionated emergence of raw milk will never have a united voice if collective efforts are not made.
Mark,
I believe it is true that most farmers are concerned with safety and have no desire to contaminate their products-that would be suicide and most want to survive.
Explain why you feel that there is a need for national standards. What is going to make your proposed "certification" any different that the "organic certifications"? I have learned from this blog and other avenues that the term "organic" is subjective. Just as the JCAHO inspections are costly jokes. (I've heard some nurses refer to them as joke-O)
If I am already a dairy farmer and especially if I had no problems, explain why I would even want to pay for certification? And if my production has been successful, explain why I would want to change to someone elses way of doing things? My customers are already secure with what they buy from me. A piece of paper means nothing to most people.
Are you suggesting something like Polyface farms, where you can go, for a fee, and learn his methods? Teaching is great and needed. Offering classes and mentoring is great, as is educating the public. Reaching out to the masses is great too.
What input have you had from ALL the current dairy farmers out there? So far your RAWMI sounds just like any other govt entity.
So far what has been said on this blog has kept your "national raw milk standards" extremely vague and the words directed at those who question it, have been very derogatory. Basically what I've read here is join or your character will be smeared. If the farmer doesn't join, will there be a blackball list?
Lets say I've been working my little 10 cow dairy for over 10 yrs with NO problems. I contact RAWMI and you send out whomever to inspect and offer advise. Your inspector says I have to change many things to conform to YOUR "Food Safety standards and protocols" before I can join. Why would I want to spend money on changes when what I've been doing is successful?
Why would I need anyones "seal of approval"? The fda gives their "seal of approval" on drugs et al……a waste of words.
You're proposing that to join RAWMI that the farmer does lab monitoring and posting on the internet. Who pays for that? RAWMI or the farmer? And if the farmer doesn't use the internet?
"A portal to allow a farmer to show his safety efforts is a huge tool for the farmer and his consumers. "
This is a good idea. Making it mandatory is wrong. The join or else words on this blog have left a bitter taste and gross distrust.
Who decides when an outbreak occurs?Who identifies the "pathogen" allegedly involved?Who traces the the "pathogen" back to the point source?
All of this is under control of the CDC.Once you accept the CDC's word as unquestionable truth,you have become the controlled opposition .As the controlled opposition ,RAWMI will be in a position to buy protection from the CDC for it's members in the same way that conventional dairy farms buy protection against liability by following the Pasteurized Milk Ordinance rules.
.RAWMI members will not be kept to the same standards as the rest of the independent farmers because they are still under the CENTRAL control of the federal government.We want local control of our food supply.the only way to have that is to take personal responsibility for the quality of the food we eat.To me this is a choice between outsourcing our responsibiliy for food quality to a certifier under the supervision of the central government or taking personal responsibility for that quality ourselves.In the long run,I am much more confident that taking personal responsibility will bring us a higher quality and more sustainable food supply.
I stand firm on my assesment of RAWMI . . . there is too much diversity in the raw milk movement to apply any standard. Don't take it personally, Mark . . . I just disagree with the need for a RAWMI institute and certifications . . . I would love to hear from the farmers out there who are "Begging" for raw milk standards . . .
Nothing is truly 100% safe . . .
Here is something we should all think about . . . I agree with Sylvia'as assesment on this 100% but I want to take it a little further.
Let us just say that a farm has been doing everything right for many, many years and has just adopted RAWMI and something goes wrong and someone gets sick . . . would you back this farmer up and stand firm on your standards . . . or would you blame the farmer.
Mark, I have been a sustainable farmer and raw milk drinker for 6 years. We are blessed with raw milk choice and there are two raw dairies that I can purchase milk from within 20 minutes of driving. This milk is available weekly through our farm store buying club.
On our farm we raise Icelandic sheep, heritage poultry and open pollinated . . . heirloom vegetables. We practice holistic husbandry on our farm and we breed, hatch and raise nearly all of our poultry on pasture with limited grain inputs. Our Icelandic lamb is 100% grass fed. In the six years of breeding and raising my sheep . . . we have never lost one due to parasitism or disease. Sometime in the future when time permits . . . our goal is to start milking some of our sheep and sell that milk directly to artisan cheesemakers at first and then from there make our own artisan raw sheep cheese.
I care very deeply about the freedom to access local foods and believe in grassroot organizing to increase the access to all "healthy" nutrient dense foods. My website is:
http://www.kilbyridgefarmmaine.blogspot.com
One last question, Mark . . . is RAWMI being funded solely by the free market (private investment) or is it being funded in part by Federal/State grants?
Kind regards,
Violet
We are not currently applying for NIH grants. Although, I see no reason why RAWMI should not seek those moneys to research medical claims for raw milk.
Please do not assume that RAWMI imposes any standards on anyone.
RAWMI sets simple national standards. How you achieve those basics is up to you and your set of risks. Your plan….not a RAWMI plan. RAWMI will help each farmer design their plan, but it is not a RAWMI plan. It is your plan. This plan is YOUR plan to assist you in achieving the standards. No outside plan ever works. It is a dust collector on a shelf some place. A RAMP program deevloped by the farmer with assistance from RAWMI is a working breathing daily checklist for the world to see and the consumer to appreciate. The results will also be appreciated on the farmers own portal. All data will be graphed to show how it compares to PMO and state standards. Teh results will show how incredibly safe and clean RAWMI producers raw milk is. This is a huge tool and bragging point.
Read this….I think you will agree. The FDA has gone from a secretely FASCIST agency to a publically FASCIST agency.
http://localfoodfreedom-nevadacounty.org/blog/2011/08/monsanto-vp-now-fda-food-safety-chief-defends-raw-milk-raids/
We must pull together. We must fight them in the courts. We must fight them in the legislature and if required we will fight them in the streets. Activism takes place on three fronts.
Mark
All your talk about the FDA has a hollow ring to it when you are dancing to the CDC's tune.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/foodsafe/report.htm
"Six agencies in the federal government have primary responsibility for food safety: two agencies under the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS)–the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC); three agencies under the Department of Agriculture (USDA)–the Food Safety and Inspection Service (FSIS), the Agricultural Research Service (ARS), and the Cooperative State Research, Education, and Extension Service (CSREES); and the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). Over the last 90 days, these agencies have worked with the many constituencies interested in food safety to identify the greatest public-health risks and design strategies to reduce these risks. USDA, FDA, CDC, and EPA have worked to build consensus and to identify opportunities to better use their collective resources and expertise, and to strengthen partnerships with private organizations. As directed by the President, the agencies have explored ways to strengthen systems of coordination, surveillance, inspections, research, risk assessment, and education."
The ringing you hear is the liberty bell chiming once again after years of silence.
The way to change the system is to overwhelm it from all angles. Judicial, legislative, agency cooperation ( when possible ), the media, political forces, social media, market tipping point, research etc…consumer demand.
Then climb inside of it and change it. Working from the outside in is ok…but soon enough we will have earned a place at the table. When they are beaten down, we will have earned our place at the table and we will eat our raw milk and share it with the broader reality we call our country…..America.
Being sequestered to the back 40 or in the underground cow share mid-night mooooshine milk market, will not nourish America and will not fundamentally change America. Yes…it is an important part of our change and it is one of the angles of pressure used. But it is not the central theme.
if you want the FDA exposed for its crimes, if you want nutrition to replace drug therapy, if you want probiotics to replace 95% of antibiotics…then you must strive to get inside the tent.
"Being sequestered to the back 40 or in the underground cow share mid-night mooooshine milk market, will not nourish America and will not fundamentally change America."
One of the big lies is that we have to get permission from anyone to exchange goods among ourselves.The only thing that will change that lie is if enough people refuse to ask permission to simply live their own lives the way they want.
http://home2.btconnect.com/tipiglen/resist.html
"I am more and more impressed by the generality of the assumption that human lives are properly to be invented by an academic-corporate-governmental elite and then either sold to their passive and choiceless recipients or doled out to them in the manner of welfare payments. Any necessary thinkingso the assumption goeswill be done by certified smart people in offices, laboratories, boardrooms, and other high places and then will be handed down to supposedly unsmart people in low placeswho will also be expected to do whatever actual work cannot be done cheaper by machines."
This is my life.I would rather work to make" the system" irrelevant to my life.Those of us who choose to pool our resources and produce our own food as a community are not hiding somewhere in some "underground cow share mid-night mooooshine milk market" .We are out in the open,living our lives,picking up our food in the middle of the day on busy streets because we know that we are living completely within the law.If someone has a problem with that I would welcome the opportunity to set them straight.
I appreciate that you see yourself as a leader who is going to make big changes and I know you work hard at it .Sometimes you choose words and phrases that have me wondering just where you are leading us to.
It is very easy to advise people to live outside of the regulations but in the real world the emotional and financial toll is daunting. As I have said many times here-the discussions of arcane theories of pathogenicity, the (pedestrian) microbiology of cheese making 101, and academic armchair approaches to personal advice on liberty interests don't count for squat when people are standing alone facing the incredible power of the corporate state. (Get it–standing alone)
There are many over lapping perspectives and common interests that touch the liberty interest of food and health choices. We need to connect the dots. The discussions-all of them- extending from this specific blog entry of David's have been important.
Based on what appears to be an overwhelming majority of a certain kind of comment being made here I say this one by Ingvar offers an excellent piece of feedback! There does appear to be some commentators who realize that the small dairy farmers could be self regulated. That could be one example of "self government". There are more examples. However, the farms that are owned by corporations are a different animal and I don't know if this is the place for me to begin talking about that subject matter. The main point by Ingvar for me is: "learn the ways of liberty and freedom". Those ways have been known before and so they surely can be known again! They were known before the creation of the federal government when America was truly functioning in self-governing ways. The best thing I can say is I am all for any efforts toward learning "the ways of liberty and freedom"!
Truly,
Chef Jem
"Raw Milk: The Whole Truth":
http://curezone.com/blogs/f.asp?f=1452
The Federalist Papers is one place and a very good one; the true roots are earlier of course, in the years 1676 to 1776 (a one-hundred-year interval, chosen arbitrarily). There is a glimpse in nine or so essays under the heading The Theological Foundations of a Just Rebellion (TFJR) at Philip Weingarts plumbbobblog.com. Rebellion is a serious wrong, and they understood that to their core. As you read widely and generally a different (and pleasant) breeze comes upon you, a clue here, a clue there. It is the air of freedomand its attendant responsibilities. To embrace that way, even to sacrifice for it, leads to good. It was never said to be easy. But it is right, in that it is the best fit for what we are. Those fifty-six who signed the Declaration of Independence subscribed to a document that ended thusly: with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor. They sought a way; it was a dark and dangerous way, now a celebrated achievement, an achievement on which lives and fortunes were spent. And in cases, consumed completely. For us they did so, as they were looking far ahead. Can we do as much? Do we know how? Are we willing? I dont think Divine Providence has evaporated between then and now- that wouldnt be Divine. Will we give it a go? Young and old? Baby boomers? Generation X, Y, Z?
I am glad that you love freedom.
Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard