The Minnesota Department of Agriculture is rapidly challenging its Wisconsin cousin as the FDAs poster boy for how to threaten and intimidate producers and consumers of nutrient-dense foods.
In the latest episode in a two-year-long series of aggressive punitive actions, the state has sent warning letters to at least four consumers, alleging they violated Minnesota laws in connection with selling raw milk, and selling adulterated and misbranded foods.
In addition, a local prosecutor has, at the MDA’s request, filed nine misdemeanor criminal charges against the farmer whose milk the consumers were alleged to have re-sold, produced by Michael Hartmann. A state judge yesterday took under advisement the charges against Hartmann, which included selling raw milk, uninspected meat, and ungraded butter. He could move the charges along toward a trial, or dismiss some or all of them.
The timing of the letters to the consumers is intriguing, coming just a couple weeks in advance of the trial of a second Minnesota farmer, Alvin Schlangen, on four misdemeanor charges in connection with supplying food to members of his private food club. His trial is scheduled to begin Monday May 14 in Minneapolis, and supporters have scheduled a demonstration of support before the trial that morning. The demonstration will follow on a Food Rights Workshop being held the afternoon of May 13.
One of the letters, to suburban Minneapolis parents Brad and Melinda Olson, begins: In March 2012 the Minnesota Department of Agriculture (MDA) concluded an investigation that revealed you participated in the sale of unpasteurized milk and other foods requiring you to have a Minnesota food handlers license. You were found operating as a drop site during 2010 for a farm located near Gibbon, Minnesota. (That is Hartmanns farm.)
After going through the particulars of the laws and regulations the Olsons allegedly violated, the warning letter concludes: MDA warns that should you continue to sell or distribute unpasteurized or other foods illegally in the future you will be subject to administrative penalties, criminal prosecution, or other enforcement remedies available to MDA.
The letters are signed by James Roettger, an MDA compliance officer, who has appeared on this blog in connection with raw milk seizures in the past. It is copied to Heidi Kassenborg, director of the MDAs Dairy and Food Inspection division. Kassenborg didn’t return a call I made seeking further explanation about the letters. (She was one of the anti-raw-milk participants in the Harvard Law School debate on raw milk last February.)
A similar letter went to Will Winter, a veterinarian and one of the founders of Traditional Foods Minnesota, a food club shuttered by the MDA in June 2010.
A third went to Rae Lynn Sandvig, a suburban Minneapolis mom and teacher, who had her home searched in 2010 by MDA and police detectives because she allowed Hartmann to park in her driveway when he dropped off food to her and neighbors. She was subsequently summoned for a hearing, and then given a warning letter based on the MDAs conclusion that she was illegally selling raw milk and other foods. Her latest warning letter contends she has continued to illegally sell food, and ends a little differently than the other letters, noting that, MDA will consider this a subsequent offense and there could be higher penalties.
Needless to say, the consumers are outraged. They deny selling food, or even collecting money, saying they simply allowed their residences to be used as drop sites for other food club members to pick up their orders.
Will Winters reaction was typical: Like everyone, we are stunned that the government has this much time and money to spend on a few farmers and their helpers in the city By using their scary legalistic and somewhat impossible to understand language, they warned us of criminal punishment to us, warned us that we cannot sell ANY food, and warned us that we are still under investigation. It’s clear, especially from the timing and breadth of the warning letters, that they want to stomp on those of us who are planning on supporting Alvin, the Hartmanns or other uppity farm criminals. Perhaps the most strange of everything in the letter was how the English language was twisted into implicating that we were actually selling the raw milk ourselves. By literal extension of this law, if you were standing in a store and a person, say one who was impaired or in a wheelchair, asked you to hand the money to the clerk, you yourself would indeed be selling that person the product.
Minnesota has for the last two years been on what can only be termed a rampage against farmers, food clubs, and individual consumers obtaining food privately. The main focus has been raw milk, but the farmers being targeted provide beef, chicken, eggs,butter, and other such products as well.
Minnesotas campaign began two years ago this month, when the MN Department of Public Health linked the farm owned by Michael Hartmann with illnesses from E.coli O157:H7 in its raw milk. As I described in a post in March, the states battle with Hartmann has been going on since at least 2001, and has carried on for years, when no illnesses were associated with the farm.
The MDA used the illnesses associated with the farm’s milk as an excuse to go after Alvin Schlangens farm; Traditional Foods Minnesota, the buying club; and Rae Lynn Sandvig. Having encountered little meaningful opposition, the MDA is expanding its efforts to more consumers.
Its important to understand that the MDAs campaign is part of a national campaign directed by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration that has seen major assaults on farmers in Wisconsin, on the Grassfed on the Hill Food Club and farmer Dan Allgyer in Maryland and Pennsylvania, on the Rawesome Food Club in California and a number of its prominent supporters; and now again on Minnesota farmers and consumers.
Once we see it as a national campaign, we can appreciate how the FDA and its state cronies are systematically upping the ante. As just one indication, in the Grassfed on the Hill food club case, agents surreptitiously entered onto the properties of consumers who served as drop points, but the FDA didnt threaten the property owners with criminal charges. Having successfully gotten away with the undercover investigation and putting farmer Dan Allgyer out of business, the agency, via the MDA, can now focus on testing out threats of criminal charges against individual consumers who offer their property as drop points. If they pull that little escalation off, the FDA and various state henchmen will move onto even more aggressive tactics. They could well include armed raids on food club members’ homes. Maybe tax evasion charges against food club members alleged to have sold food to other members. They could try to seek some serious jail time for food club members engaged in selling the adulterated food.
To the extent they see little meaningful opposition to their tactics, they will continue escalating. It’s all about intimidation and control. Thats why its important they see ever more serious opposition at the show trials they are putting on, beginning with that of Alvin Schlangen May 14. The Raw Milk Freedom Riders will be there. You should, too, if you possibly can.
It is if we are honest the only way how enough people will wake up and confront themselves with the question are we ready to claim our right, are we ready to face the music and our own demons.
I think that all the hanky panky going on with in and out of the courts has given the movement a taste of justice as it is defined today.
Can we and do we want to defend ourselves or shall we simplynadobt the principle of lawful defiance and bear the consequences?
It seems as if the head on collision is unavoidable the only thing we have not yet come to crips with are we ready?
Yes proper house keeping is a must.
But at the end the smokescreen of the high risk food and mislabeling and adulterated food can only serve us with a clear message.
Are you ready to stand your ground?
Are you ready to stand behind your farmer?
Are you willing to lay open the cards and expose in a daring way the reality of out of control bureaucrats?
If you are not ready then the situation is not yet bad enough.
There is a shift happening in regards to the boldness of Government agents testing the water how far they need to go to make an example of you or you or you. It will always be you at the end.
Who is taking care of those farmers who have been now for so long in this battle and keep getting charged and charged and charged again.
Please all those consumers begin to understand he human toll of this drama.
Yes there has been a toll on Mary as well and Marler took care of it. But who is at the end supporting the farm families faced day in and day out with court proceedings and new charges.
You need to ask yourself if another tactic is the way to go or if the unafraid friends and shareholders and farmers are willing to go all the way.
ALL THE WAY MY FRIENDS. As longer we prolong the suffering as harder it will be to say yes to the next bold step.
This issue is not grey it is black or white.
And it is not the Government chasing us it is us beating around the bushes.
Be there in the week of May 14 and embrace the consequences of being free.
Warm regards
Michael
farmers
Deborah is correct, it is strange that the gov is harassing small farmers, someone with clout must be pushing this. These food clubs are not new neither are cow shares, why harass now? It is illegal to buy that 1/4 of the beef steer? Or 1/2 of it?
“It is not clear whether these illnesses came from the farm’s raw milk or from another source, says William Keene, Senior Epidemiologist ” “when investigating last month’s E. coli outbreak linked to the farm, there were some unconfirmed illnesses that Keene says were not definitively identified as E. coli.”
“Of the people we did interview we learned about these additional clinically compatible illnesses, some of which I suppose could be Cryptosporidium or Campylobacter. This wasn’t on our radar when we were doing that so we identified them as presumptive E. coli O157:H7 cases,”
“Raw milk is essentially a suspension of fecal organisms in a nutrient broth,”
So this guy drinks boiled poop? What an idiot.
Cryptosporidium is often in tap water.
http://vitals.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/04/11542826-recalled-dog-food-tied-to-salmonella-outbreak?lite
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/03/health/listeria-outbreak-investigation/index.html
“These so-called food safety audits are not worth anything,” said Dr. Mansour Samadpour, president and CEO of IEH Laboratories, ”
We never got sick from simple tap water rinsing of our produce. We’ve eaten produce straight from the plant with no illnesses. Why does the produce from the big farms become contaminated so often.
Surprise surprise….
Yes, and consider how Organic Valley, a co-op owned by farmers for goodness sake, decided to throw out members of their co-operative who were supplying pasteurized milk to the co-op but also had their own customers on the side to whom they provided raw milk. These dairy farmers were not in violation of their contractual agreement with Organic Valley in any way. They simply had additional income for selling another product on the side through their own customer base. Did OV also throw out all dairy farmers who sell produce at a produce stand or through a CSA? I don’t think so. I had a conversation with a member of the OV board who practically spit on me for pointing out that the decision made absolutely no sense.
Does anyone else have any other suggestions?
You must be doing something right if one of the first comments is anti- raw milk..keep it up! Some people wonder why this is happening in MN but as one who lives here, don’t forget we have Big Dairy lobbying almost daily at the Capitol. People have been working at getting a bill passed that removed the unreasonable restrictions on the distribution of raw milk, and it was incredible the resistance that was encountered. Rumors flew that we were demanding retail sales (not true) and that the Governor promised he would veto it if it came to his desk (also found to be not true.) Who would pass around these lies? Short answer…follow the money. We don’t represent a large market share but truth is powerful- if word gets out that sustainable, healthy alternatives are available that are good for the people, for the farmers, for the animals, and for the earth than it will be impossible to stop. Someone needs to carry that message…
We know that’s a lie. There’s zero connection between actual outbreaks and enforcement policy. The best proof that “food safety” is the same Orwellian scam as the “war on terror” is the way it aggressively focuses on prior restraint of small producers even as the worst actual outbreaks caused by Big Ag bring only the most meaningless slaps on the wrist, zero criminal prosecutions, and zero change in the government policies which aggravate every problem.
The fact is that anyone who actually cared about food safety, in government or out, would find all his time consumed by fighting for:
1. A total moratorium on commercial GMO planting and GMO field tests until systematic independent safety testing had been completed and found them to be safe. (Such testing was never done for a single GE product, but was on the contrary ideologically declared to be unnecessary, via the “substantial equivalence” scam. That’s the same government which allegedly cares about whether or not real milk is safe.)
2. A total ban on non-therapeutic antibiotic use in agriculture.
Anyone who doesn’t start by calling for these is a complete fraud if he so much as mentions “food safety”, let alone advocates government enforcement. Government, of course, does nothing but aggrandize GMOs and CAFOs. So that lays bare the food safety scam.
The fact is that no one in the system or who supports the system cares about actual food safety even the slightest bit.
What’s really behind this prior restraint onslaught are the imperatives of corporate ag. It seeks infinite profit and total domination. Even if the Food Sovereignty movement weren’t a mortal threat to Big Ag, it would still want to eradicate all alternatives. But this movement is in fact a growing threat. The government’s goal is to strangle it.
(Government’s own purpose, as always, is to serve the corporate imperative. At best, to “manage” it, but always to further it, never to place limits on it. That should put in perspective the various recipes for appeasement we often hear. We should’ve learned a long time ago that one cannot appease fascism, including the neoliberal corporatist variety.)
Some foods like hamburger and commercial milk are mixed from so many sources and animals, to the point that it becomes impossible to actually trace the source of the contamination or the sick animal. Perhaps that plays into their decision to not attempt to identify the source and instead launch massive recalls. They evidently can absorb the losses and just keep on ticking. A small farmer can’t, therefore they MUST be meticulous or risk losing their business entirely.
I had an email this morning forwarded from my wife. She is a member of the local Grange and church, and once a month they have a breakfast open to the general public. We currently have an excess of eggs and she offered to donate 4 dozen. Here is the email exchange she forwarded, I’m as speechless as she was by their answer:
“Unfortunatelly I have already purchased the eggs for Saturday. We are now using mostly pasturized eggs for food safety reasons and only use shell eggs for a very few fried eggs. Thank her for thinking of us though.”
My wife’s reply:
“Pasteurized eggs? You’ve got to be kidding. Oh, my! What’s this world coming to if you can’t eat farm fresh eggs. We’re not talking factory farm chickens which are raised under conditions that could breed illness — that is a whole different ball game. Our 5 chickens are organically raised, free range (really, foraging in the grass, eating all sorts of stuff that makes them healthy), producing much more nutritious, not to mention tasty, eggs than you could ever buy from a store.
I do understand, though. Sorry you can’t enjoy them 🙁 .”
And it would have to be multi-pronged: legal, legislative, propaganda, education, entertainment, internet, political, regulatory, international, ethics, medicine, ambulance chasers, judicial, &c.
Take Lola Granolas points seriously.
This is war. The figures we saw here last year covering the changes in the dairy world in the United States over the past 50 or 60 years point to an ongoing, fundamental, weakening of: food choice on the part of the customer, the economic health of the producers (and their towns, cities, counties, and states), and the concomitant health of the customers (ultimately everybody, no?).
Some entertainment: green jelly beans cause acne. URL:http://xkcdcom/882/
Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard
Killer thing we will never see… a study comparing Amish kids to cafo farm/other kids in America for allergies/asthma… and not just for allergies and asthma, but what about Parkinson’s, cancer, and a host of other diseases/conditions…
Glad I moved my family to a farm a few years ago!
Joanie, you are right, the factory farm manure along with the chemically infused feed and unhealthy living conditions, unhealthy animals, unhealthy soils are all major contributions to the poor quality/toxic foods they push on the population.
I think the best is to grow what you can and buy from local farmers you can talk to and see the farms, etc.
If the testicles are getting bigger, what are they putting in the milk? If it does it to rats/mice….what’s it doing to people? More reason to know your farmer, where your food comes from etc.
2010’s Food Control Act intends to extend that same onerous double standard to produce. For good measure, the entire “traceability” regime will be administered by corporate databases.
Small farmers can be just as corrupted/tempted into “fudging” (willful ignorance) as large corporations…
The problem with big companies isn’t that they are companies, but that they are populated by people, and people are the root problem. People make errs in judgment, and sometimes this errs are motivated by subtle internal reasonings and fears.
Now, small farmers generally have more transparency and accountability, and more risk if they try to fudge, and thus are generally less likely to do so
But I agree with Bill, he would win that bet, easily. I am sure someone in America there is more than one small/smaller farmer who (depending on how you define willfully) has let items go that probably should not have been let go… and that deep down, they knew so, but justified their decision and did it anyway.
The power of self-deception is great, and a small farmer is no less beholden to it than any other person – some people, by nature of their companies/positions, etc. merely have more opportunity to engage in it than others.
And the pressures some small farmers face could easily cause them to minimize/ignore a problem and let milk go (or another product go), because, in their mind/reasoning, the cost if they don’t could be too great. But they would justify it under other pretexts, other reasons, since no person could generally let something go that they knew was contaminated without some sort of complex self-justification… we see this all the time in the media with politicians, financiers, marital problems, police, and dozens of others, etc. Surely we don’t think small farmers are immune to what befalls all other occupations and people?
But all this would happen in a complex set of inner thinkings, hard for anyone who doesn’t know the farmer and situation well to ascertain.
I know this personally in administrating a food club and talking to other administrators and farmers – something seems slightly not okay, but you are tempted to justify, or you rightly justify it.
But lets not fall into the trap that evil is big and small farmers are inherently good and not as tempted to evil.
Rather ironic, don’t you think, that there’s proof in courts of law, about the most egregious criminal negligence committed by PEOPLE within large corporations, yet very seldom is anything done to them. A handy example being ; the ( former) Canadian Red Cross, which was found to have transfused to thousands of people, blood which they knew was infected with AIDS since it had been collected from homosexuals who were HIV positive. What was done to them ? Oh, nothing = the director was let off … prosecution of the stayed as “not being in the public interest”
http://www.pacc-news.com/5-2-12/heart_ingram5_2_12.html
And, though not related to food, but in the state of California, allied health professionals that are allowed to run colonic therapy centers under the compliance of SB-577 are being shut down by inspectors from the Medical Board of California violating SB-577. They are using strong armed tactics to prevent the owners and therapists from enforcing their rights. ” On March 22nd the Medical Board of California shut us down under immediate threat of felony charges for practicing medicine without a license for doing colon hydrotherapy.
We have been 100% compliant with all guidelines set forth by the state, and the Medical Board investigator didnt care.
We were lied to, threatened and denied time for legal counsel.
In the process of shutting us down the investigator made a threat to colon hydrotherapy as a whole.
At this moment we arent allowed to practice colon hydrotherapy and we have almost zero income.
By default we have become the face of this fight to protect colon hydrotherapy as an alternative health care practice in California, and actually nationwide.
After meetings with 8 different lawyers we finally found legal assistance who believes we have a chance to overturn the action of the medical board.”
“On Thursday March 22nd, an investigator from the Medical Board of California walked into my husband and my colon hydrotherapy office and aggressively threatened and intimidated us into signing a cease and desist affidavit on the spot. His threat was immediate felony charges for practicing medicine without a license, and up to 28 years in jail.
He backed up his claim with a copy of a law that turned out to be the 2002 AGs opinion, which we all believed was overturned 2 months later with the passing of SB-577. (I have been in compliance with SB-577 since its inception.) He didnt give us time to read the paperwork and he refused us legal counsel. Under extreme duress (I was crying so hard I could barely breathe or hold my pen) we signed.
On his way out of our office he said, I am fully aware that there are several other therapists in your area, and many more in California youre just first.
Health Officials Warn Against Drinking Raw Milk
Kristian Foden-Vencil | May 7, 2012 3:52 p.m. | Updated: May 7, 2012 3:53 p.m. | Portland, OR
A mother, whose two-year-old has been hospitalized for 28 days after drinking raw milk, recommends not giving children milk that hasn’t been pasteurized.
In last few weeks as many as 21 cases of food-borne illnesses have been traced to raw milk from a farm outside of Willsonville.
Health officials are repeating advice that raw milk is dangerous.
Producers and drinkers say the outbreak is an anomaly and that the benefits of raw milk outweigh the risks.
A woman, who asked not to be identified on the air, told OPB’s Think Out Loud that her two-year-old suffered terribly after drinking raw milk.
Jill: “She had strokes early on and pressure in the brain and most recently had a surgery to remove some dead bowel and colon. And now has a ostomy, that will get reversed in six to eight weeks.”
An ostomy is a surgically created opening that allows body waste to be discharged.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says that between 1998 and 2009, it found about 1800 illnesses related to raw milk as well as 200 hospitalizations and 2 deaths. Most illnesses were caused by E. coli, Campylobacter or Salmonella
I saw a kid with severed legs as a result of a car accident. I also just talked to someon who just recovered partially from severe brain damage as a result from a car accident.
I live close to Walkerton where I think 7 people died from E Coli ho157 because they drank municipal water.
You should warn everyone about grave dangers eating any food according to the terrible consequences.
I think you are important within the context of food safety with some reality that anything can or might be dangerous to eat.
So in that sense you seem to come across as Marlers little barking dog for ever licking his hand because of his efforts to get you a settlement.
I think honestly your role is important within the context of reasonable food safety measures for any food and not only fo raw milk.
I have read many comments by you and others and wish that you actually would understand that your comments are may be good to stir the pot but also makes a mockery out of a reasonable approach to food safety.
I travel (:tooo much) a lot and never ever heard the flight attendant warn the passengers that they potentially could get killed. 10000 times more than raw milk.
Celebrate you sons life and feel free to not drink raw milk but respect others who do reserve the right to drink milk. Just lik driving a car, drinking public water, eating cold cuts, and flying.
All the best and warm regards.
Michael Schmidt
I know everyone loves a farmer and hates a lawyer, so I know beating up on me is an intellectually easy target, but I thought you were a bit smarter than that.
Mary does not do what I tell her – I wished she did. The reality is your desire for your version of freedom bumps into the reality of a 2-year-old whose life is ruined. That is the argument that I am afraid has no easy answer.
Marietta Pellicano
Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard
That’s quite a straw man. All of history proves that “big is evil”, in the sense that any hierarchy naturally seeks its own power and perpetuation, that its culture is predominantly geared to these goals, that it indoctrinates its personnel toward these goals, and eventually selects for authoritarian attitudes, obedience, power-, and wealth-worshipping. There we have the basic nature of corporate/government structures.
Not to mention the fact that concentrated power is inherently far more dangerous than where power is decentralized. That was a basic principle of the original American revolutionary philosophy.
Meanwhile, no one is saying the small farmer is some inherent saint. But decentralized, relocalized agriculture (like in any other sector, as well as in politics) not only provides far less opportunity for individual corruption or organized crime, but is also an ongoing school in democracy and community. It’s not perfect, but it’s by far the best we can do.
One of the basic premises of the food movement is that where food production and distribution are relocalized, it’s inherently more transparent and accountable. Now people ostensibly within the movement are going to start trying to deny that? I think that’s yet more evidence that some are simply trying to hijack the movement for corporatism. For example, in the form of “industrial organic”, as Pollan calls it.
“FDA Allows Mold, Insects, Rodent Hairs, Ammonia, Arsenic and Maggots In Reconditioned Food”
http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2012/05/07/fda-mold-insects-rodent-hairs-ammonia-arsenic-maggots-reconditioned-food-130401/
Raw milk illnesses are not acceptable!!!!! They are preventable!!!!! It is not OK for a two year old to have strokes, colon damage, and probably kidney damage all because the parents were under the impression that raw milk was healthier option to give to children. Shame on you if you think this is acceptable.
“She had strokes early on and pressure in the brain and most recently had a surgery to remove some dead bowel and colon.”
Mary, I think that Michael was saying he appreciates your passion, but cautioning you that there is risk in all of life, including the food we eat. To somehow expect consumption of milk to be different isn’t realistic. Literal zero tolerance for raw milk illnesses sets up an impossible standard, creating a situation where you can always criticize, continually call for harsher crackdowns, never accept any kind of reasonable compromise as to reasonable risk.
While most producers are very safety conscious, there is no question that more can be done on this front. But it will happen most effectively in an atmosphere of acceptance and cooperation, rather than continual confrontation.
Why is it ok for children or any other person to be damaged by other than raw milk, medical interventions, etc? Why is the govt not slamming them? Why are those who should be held responsible for the illnesses/death not accountable?
Mary, you do most often sound like a shill for Marlar. Rarely do you post any link other than to his web sites. It don’t give you any credibility.
As David said, we respect your right to avoid raw milk for yourself and your family, but despite the risk in any and all foods we would like to retain the right to choose for ourselves rather than defer to your opinions, right or wrong.
What is that saying? He who has the gold makes the rules…
I agree with you this was inappropriate on my part. The focus was not on you but on Mary because the way she writes appears the way I described above.
I just feel, that if we want to get to the point of understanding food safety ANY overblown simplification creates more barriers to get to the bottom of how we can balanc food safety and the right to mak an informed decision.
Any simplification of an issue as you know creates a counter argument not necessarily based on well founded scientific knowledge.
I am guilty of that as well.
Thank you for pointing out the shortcoming.
One day I hope we will meet and can look back together at the issue with great satisfaction, that we have in fact achieved a level of common ground which served it’s purpose to minimize the level of danger and maximized the level of tolerance.
Regards
Michael
Calling weston price a leader is rather silly as the majority of people never heard of them. Per their web site they appear to be promoting their own beliefs in “food,farming and the Healing Arts”. Does that make them a leader? No it does not. There are dozens upon dozens of web sites that do the same.
As for OP dairy, it is known mostly in Ca. With each invasion by the feds, it only serves to increase raw milks notoriety. I had never heard of OP or WAPF until I found this blog 6 yrs ago and I was living in Sacramento at the time. Yes I had seen the 2 raw milks in the stores, I never paid any attention to them. Mark a leader? I don’t believe so. Vocal and passionate? Indeed he is. He appears to believe strongly in what he does, so of course he promotes his beliefs. he also has the funds to do so more readily than the small dairy farmers, that does not make him leader of a huge movement. Is Organic Valley milk the leader in organic milk? Not hardly, perhaps they’d like to think so.
Pattie, with her cow share, she speaks out and promotes raw milk along with healthy foods and living. Does that make her a leader?
I have not seen any specific “leader” in the raw milk movement. I’ve seen several people who stand out and speak of and promote their beliefs. I guess that makes them all leaders then. They are in Co, NJ,NY,Ma,Wi,Mi,Pa,Va,Ca and many other states.
I cannot imagine that anyone would be so closed minded to take 100% of what any person or entity says. Choices are weighed along with our belief systems.
I agree with some of WAPF information, as I do with OP and even the govt, I take what coincides with my beliefs and disregard the rest. Most people treat issues in this manner.
Mark also deserves any “cheap” shots, he gets what he gives. He is quite capable of pulling his big boy panties up and can stand up for himself.
When speaking to someone new, I always say that raw milk can make someone ill, BUT THAT’S EXTREMELY RARE.
When both of my boys were two years old, they were raw milk consumers. I produced the milk for them myself. There was no need to bring another mammal into the picture. A big problem in this movement is the lack of information about the risk for these children. There is a great deal of information about the benefits of feeding raw cow and goat milk to these children when, in fact, there is a much safer and more traditional option. The product is even custom made for the child. I realize that not all women can breastfeed, but most actually can and most don’t continue to breastfeed as I was able to. That’s the real raw milk for babies that, oddly, plays second fiddle on the “real milk” website.
Amanda
Are you saying that exclusively only raw milk illnesses are not acceptable but preventable?
This exactly what I was referring too; narrowing the issue down to one particular food.
It is easy to do because it is publicly targeted by agencies and lawyers.
I value your passion in regards to trying to prevent harm to anybody especially children.
I also respect your grief and anger and missionary spirit in regards to what happened to you son.
I just felt, that in order to take your experience to a valid and credible point so that others understand the issue at hand it is necessary to not get ridiculed by others because the way you keep putting your finger into the wounds of an important part of our world.
It is credibility and respectable progress which can help to move all of us to a level of constructive management.
I think you are right that denying that there are risks with raw milk or any other food is as wrong as singling out one particular food.
I do not wis on anybody what you have gone through. I also wish on anybody what you are putting yourself through because of the obvious fanatic way you seemed to have chosen.
I apologize for my remarks in regards to your friend Marler. I have learned to phrase my words like a lawyer, as you may recall I did not say you are acting like…… I said, you seem to……..
In closing I do embrace your love for your son and your motherly instinct to protect and warn about the potential reoccurrence
All the best
Michael
So WAPF, with it’s leader Sally Fallon, advocates raw milk formula for babies. Her baby, WAPF, grew out of her desire to evangelize the nutrition info disseminated in “Nutrition and Physical Degeneration”. She was once a member of “The Price Pottenger Nutrition Foundation”. Nowhere in that book does Price mention feeding raw milk to babies. She was a board member of PPNF, The Price Pottenger Nutrition Foundation, for twenty years before she left that organization to pursue a more politically active role in the food/nutrition arena. I’m not making this up.
Since its inception in 1999, WAPF has been espousing the health benefits of raw milk for mothers and babies. It runs a chapter based organization. How do you think a majority if people find their raw milk herd shares??? These chapters help connect raw milk seekers with raw milk producers.
David Gumperts blog is quoted in Wise Traditions, WAPFs pseudo scientific quarterly journal, as a source for raw milk news. He writes the occasional article for them in their raw milk update section.
WAPF and McAfee have a symbiotic relationship. He boosts raw milk and so do they. An aquaintsnce recently titled he and his wife: “Mr. and Mrs. Raw Milk” and i thinks thats an apt description of how WAPF members view him.
Joel Salatin. Would you deny that he’s not a leader in the “real food movement”? Star of such tomes as “the omnivores dilemma” and “food inc” and “fresh”. He calls mark McAfee his raw milk hero in his most recent book, “folks, this ain’t normal”. Joel is a card carrying WAPFer and I doubt the two would have connected without WAPF.
Search “raw milk” in amazon and see what comes up. First, Gumperts venerable raw milk revolution. Second, a little book called “the untold story of raw milk” by Ron Schmidt. Who is the publisher of that book? Sally Fallon’s Newtrends Publishing, Inc.
Lest we not forget the Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund, WAPfs legal arm. They’ve got their knees deep in raw milk litigation, no?
A lot of arrows in the Raw Milk activism world point to Sally Fallon’s WAPF that she created to promote her political agendas, and the ones that deviate most from WAP teachings and writings are raw milk and anti-soy.
Interesting you use the word fanatic to describe me considering you went on a hunger strike over raw milk.
This whole issue boils down to beliefs. If one views raw milk as a food that is equal in risk to other foods, then the argument that all foods contain a risk fits. However, if one views raw milk as a high risk food compared other foods, then the story changes. I believe raw milk is a high risk food, along with hamburger, deli meats, packaged greens, sprouts, cantaloupes, & tomatoes. These foods are involved in outbreaks practically every year. I am all for point of sale signs educating people about the risk of all of these foods. Foodborne illnesses can be prevented. Hamburger, deli meats and milk can be cooked to the correct temperature, the rind of the cantaloupe can be washed in hot water, tomatoes you can grow yourself, and leafy greens can be purchased bulk. As for sproutsstay the hell away from them. The seeds are contaminated.
Just for the record, I dont eat hamburger, deli meats, sprouts, tomatoes or milk. When cantaloupe is in season, I wash the hell out of the rind before I cut it. For the food that I do eat, I buy only organic. I dont want poisons on my food.
If a person believes raw milk is a food that has no more risk than eating any other food, then they cant make an informed decision about the choice to consume it. This was posted on the Bovine today. http://thebovine.wordpress.com/ Listen to the woman in the very beginning (at about 38 seconds). She believes E.coli cant survive in raw milk. This is an ignorant belief. She symbolizes what is wrong with the raw milk movement and THIS IS MY BEEF! Wouldnt she be in for the surprise of her life if her child developed an E.coli infection which turned into HUS?
The literature used in the raw milk movement downplays the risks and overly promotes the benefits. People think they have educated themselves about raw milk, but until you can name all the pathogens raw milk can harbor and all the illnesses that can result, the choice give raw milk to your children comes from a place of ignorance.
The next time you apologize dont bother unless it comes from a sincere place in your heart. I dont have patience for games. The strokes, kidney failure and colon removal of a 2 year old has put me in a bad mood.
Mary
Such anger can manifest itself in sincere physical ailments, so please consider some forgiveness.
I guess whatever someone says it does not sit right.
But let me ask you how you safeguard yourself against contaminated water like we had in Walkerton.
How do you safeguard yourself driving the car on the road when you know that 30000 people get killed every year. And on and on it goes. There are hundreds of arguments on your side and another hundred on the other side. Why do have to have sides.
I agree with you that this video pick with the woman saying e Coli cannot be in milk is wrong ,wrong, wrong.
In regards to my Hungerstrike, I did not go fanatically on a Hungerstrike for raw milk. I went on a Hungerstrike for the same reason I got engaged with you in the discussion. I want constructive dialogue instead of war like scenarios on farms and primitive Russian roulette arguments.
We are at a point where we can if the will is there to create the opportunity for reasonable approaches to food safety.
You are also guilty of creating resentment to proper standards by those who truly believe that raw milk is inherently safe because they believe you are a nutcase.
If you reflect however how much you could contribute to a constructive dialogue as a mother with an injured child without the added all or nothing attitude we could be further ahead in this whole dilemma.
Do I believe raw milk is inherently safe? YES I do becaus I have multi generational track record and in the country where I came from peop just shake their head about the strange discussion we are having in North America.
Do I ignore the issue of raw milk safety NO not at all.
I having a hard time convincing the food freedom movement to accept the responsibility of voluntary standards with clearly labelled certification for one purpose only:
We can prove that we CAN provide a safe product which children can drink also.
Even so you have a hard time accepting any apologies I will be always open to constructive comments you are making
Warm regards
Michael
Thanks Kristen
FIVEFOLD PROTECTIVE SYSTEM IN RAW MILK
1. Destroys pathogens in the milk.
2. Stimulates the Immune system.
3. Builds healthy gut wall.
4. Prevents absorption of pathogens and toxins in the gut.
5. Ensures assimilation of all the nutrients.
I was at this talk in June 2010 and got my Nourishing Traditions book signed by Sally Fallon-Morell herself. This is the same pediatrician group that David wrote about here that first “reported”? the 2012 campylobacter outbreak from Claravale:
http://pediatricalternatives.com/sally-fallon-morell.html
in the summer of 2010, a child who’d visited the petting zoo at the PNE was so ill she had HUS, but the response of the PNE – owned and operated by the govt. – was to hush up that news ’til the PNE was over. Meanwhile 1000s of children per day continued passing through the zoo. THE main theme of this forum is the absurd DIS-proportionate response of the regulators to REAL MILK, contrasted with studied blindness to far greater – provable – consequences of risks .. for which tax payers pick up the bill
If and when you do meet Michael Schmidt in person, you’ll find out what a noble man he is … then let’s see if you’re big enough to apologize yourself for such an unwarranted low blow
It’s called reading through the lines: “I apologize for my remarks in regards to your friend Marler. I have learned to phrase my words like a lawyer, as you may recall I did not say you are acting like…… I said, you seem to……..”
He is apologizing to her for calling her Marler’s (a lawyer) little barking dog. But he takes it back by saying he has learned to phrase his words like a lawyer and leaves the apology hanging in mid air saying he phrased it as seems like…
Translation: I apologize but I didn’t really say what you think I said because I’ve learned how to talk like a lawyer.
Oh, nevermind, why am I even trying to explain this? It’s as plain as day how much you all hold Mary in contempt.
I hold her in contempt because she abuses this venue as a pity-party. Her pretence at caring about “safety and fully-informed consumers” is just a ploy …
her poor kid is going to need serious professional help to extricate himself from the role in which she’s placed him – the central idol in her religion of worshipping her self-image. How does this all pertain to REAL MILK ? It doesn’t
I can only assume that you are generalizing and I can only speak for myself. I don’t hold Mary in contempt. There are many things she and I do agree on, just as there are many we do not. I believe we’ve had some good conversations going over the years. On certain things she posts, she does sound like a shill for Marler. Just as some sound like a shill for OP. It is what it is. I’ve no doubt that many can empathize with the horror she went through with her sons illness. That doesn’t mean that everyone will agree with all she says.
After reading your previous posts I realize you do have handle on how the world works, and if my response to your earlier post (a week ago or so) seemed harsh I apologize. There are many, many things to try to understand and way too many for everyone to know. Keep up the good work.
Califarmer: if you are out there reading this please tell us what is going on in California with Rawmi and the herd/cowshare situation.
It is my understanding the propaganda and government force traces back to the big money behind big dairy. When my son was sick he had to see an Infectious Disease specialist. I asked if he should go off raw milk until recovered, she said of course not, it could only help his recovery. KFC, a whole different story.
But I’m probably wrong about that. I’m sure you and Bill Anderson and Mary McG and Kirsten P., are much more in tune with what goes into the processing of the foodstuffs being put out by the CAFO’s than most of the rest of us who prefer local foods because we would rather help support the local economy. But hey, that’s just me.
How many small farmers do you suppose are adding aborted fetal cells to their products, as is PepsiCo? Don’t believe me? Look it up for yourself. PepsiCo says they are now stopping that practice. Uh-huh, sure they are. They will say whatever the people want to hear. Same thing that goes on here most of the time. If those mentioned above are more confident that BigPhood has it all over small farmers, than you all just go for it. I prefer to stay local – and I’ll take my chances with local evil small farmers.
You say, with much emphasis too, that “raw milk illnesses are not acceptable”. What about pasteurized milk illnesses? What about illnesses from tainted CAFO ground turkey? What about illnesses from large production cantaloupe and spinach? What about fluoridated/aluminum containing City/municipal water? Do you consider those acceptable illnesses?
I’m more afraid of tap water than of raw milk and that’s a fact.
You are what my grandfather would have called a “harpie”.
The list of things which can turn a healthy two year old into an ill two year old is astoundingly long, to be sure. Vaccinations and other toxic medications usually top the list, but no one admits to those because of the liability. Instead, our court system just eliminates manufacturer liability. I guess that’s their way of saying anything goes for big businesses. A poor solution to a huge problem.
And, for the benefit of all of us who read here, could you and Mary and Kirsten and others I may have missed, please stop telling Michael he’s not smart. Everyone is intelligent in their own way. You seem to be well versed in legalities, Michael is educated about other things. And the diversity is what makes the world go round, no?
Sounds like sour grapes to me.
If you don’t believe in WAPF principles it’s your choice. Let the rests of us have ours, whether it’s WAPF or not. Really not your business to come here and bash and trash – or IS it? Hmmmm.
Sadly, I think you have grossly misunderstood my point. I get all my food from small farms and small, independent companies. I have probably spent less than $200 in the past 3 years combined for my family of 5.5 at grocery stores of any kind, and most of that was at small, local, independent ones.
Please don’t straw man people who don’t know by painting them with certain words to make it easier to dismiss them and their points.
I am merely pointing out it is a false dichotomy to label big as evil, small as good. Now, this statement has to be nuanced greatly, based on history, culture, and many other factors.
I agree small tend to have less problems and more accountability, but not always , and we play right into the hands of those who oppose the small system when we portray it as somehow being immune from the problems of intentional or unintentional folly, corruption, error, and dishonesty.
While a small local farmer will not be putting aborted fetal cells in their products, I have seen many claim to be non-gmo (intentionally and unintentionally) who were not, many claim to not be using pesticides and other chemicals who were, etc…. all for financial gain. I know of farmers who claim to be grassfed and then feed their cows soy bean meal because under the grassfed rules, soy bean meal is allowed. So now you have a farmer who has these lovely “pastured beef” labels whose beef is contaminated with GMO soy bean meal, and how would the consumer ever know?
So, on this point, Bill is correct, and those who act as if or try to argue that a small farmer will never morally fail merely create a situation where our cause is doomed, because small farmers have, can, and do morally fail because of money and other pressures.
The real issue is how to create a system where they are truly supported so they don’t – how to connect them with their supporters in tangible ways, how to ensure they have sufficient fiscal and other support to be able to grow real food without destroying themselves and their families.
To not warn people of this and treat it seriously only strengthens the hand of Marler and company.
A small farmer is no less immune to greed and avarice than an Exxon executive. A smaller scale does not equate to a smaller sin.
Your comments portray, more than anything, an inability to listen and hear what others are saying, and instead a quick move to pigeon hole them to make an easier target to dismiss them instead of engaging in constructive dialogue.
“To not warn people of this and treat it seriously only strengthens the hand of Marler and company.”
What does Marler and company have to do with abuses in small scale farming?